January / Coetzee : Slow Man

[papayahed]

In January we will be reading Slow Man by J. M. Coetzee



http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/9589/coetzeenl6.jpg



John Maxwell "J.M." Coetzee (IPA: /kʊtˈsiː/ or Afrikaans IPA: [kutˈsiˑe]) (born 9 February 1940) is an author and academic from South Africa (now an Australian citizen living in South Australia). A novelist and literary critic as well as a translator, Coetzee won the 2003 Nobel Prize in Literature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Maxwell_Coetzee

[hellsapoppin]

Sounds good! I just ordered it and will have to have a late start in my reading and in adding to the discussion.

[thelastmelon]

Yay! :) I am currently reading another book and will have another book to read for school, but since it's my nomination that won, I will absolutely do my best to read this with you. I'll go buy it later this week!

[Niamh]

Okay, i've ordered my copy. should be here in a few days.

[kratsayra]

bought my copy today. of course there's a billion other things I'm supposed to be reading and trying to finish, but book club books are just better cause you're reading with other people. :)

[papayahed]

I just picked up the book today, I've read the first page, so far so good.

[thelastmelon]

I'll finish Kafka on the Shore today (not too much left) and then I'll start on Slow Man. I went to the library two days ago and picked it up there. Can't afford to buy a lot of books right now, unfortunately.

[Niamh]

I recon mine will be here by monday. Ordered it from Amazon before checking if we ad it in work! :lol:

[hellsapoppin]

Aha! I just got my copy and eagerly look forward to reading it.

[kratsayra]

I'm still pretty early on in the book. But I didn't realize (until I started reading) that the book is actually set in Australia rather than South Africa.

So I am looking, as I read, to see if there are any elements of the book that are somehow informed by Coetzee's South African background.

[Niamh]

really? I was kind of hoping to read a book based in south africa.

[kratsayra]

Yup. That is where Coetzee lives now.

[thelastmelon]

really? I was kind of hoping to read a book based in south africa.

It's still written by a man from South Africa and it's his way of writing, not the way of an australian to write. I still found it a good and interesting book. :thumbs_up

[Niamh]

its not going to stop me from reading it and i'm sure i'll injoy it but I wanted to read something that was not only written by a south african but based there. Ah but sure.... I'm sure its going to be good!

[papayahed]

I'm kinda disappointed myself. But the rules are to nominate a author from that country..Maybe I'll add one of the other nominees to my reading list.

[kratsayra]

it's getting really interesting - I'm about halfway through - so even if you are disappointed that it's not set in South Africa, it's still quite engaging. :D

[Niamh]

Got the book today so will start it asap.

[sherlock]

does this book swaer or have any bad things in it what is it about

[Weisinheimer]

Got the book today and read a few chapters.
sherlock, there isn't any swearing in the book (at least not as far as I've read). I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "bad things" but it seems pretty clean so far. Welcome to litnet, btw.

[kratsayra]

It seems fairly clean . . . ish. I dunno. It's a little dirty because it's the inside of a man's thoughts, mostly. ;) haha. although it's written quite tastefully so it probably wouldn't read as offensive.

[ben.!]

Hey everyone!

This is my first time on the forum book club.:) I'm up to about chapter 11 on Slow Man, and what's really coming across to me is this man's constant cynicism in everything. I guess that's what happens when you're isolated within a hospital or your flat for a long time, minus half a leg, so you cannot get up to do many things.

Paul Raymont keeps referring to this 'past self' that he was, where he seemed to be a handsome flirt that everybody loved.

But I get the feeling that he's always had this cynicism, it wasn't brought about by the bicycle accident. I guess what happened with the bicycle incident was that his cynicism turned into defeatism, he sees failure in everything, his manhood, failure at starting a family or becoming a father, his life, old age.

I'm finding this book an interesting meditation on Raymont's life, as he reminisces over things of the past and present while he lies in bed with his stump of a leg.

Marijana seems to be the only person in which he finds solace, his ex-wife is pretty much the only person who visits, and they had something, but it's now in the past. I feel Margaret sees him only as a matter of duty of care to him, rather than an actual want, per se, to see him. However he seems to be infatuated with his carer, Marijana, and her family. I just finished a chapter where he proclaims to want to be part of her family, and take care of her kids, and have a little of her love.

It is interesting though how the bicycle accident brought his whole life into retrospective, putting everything he's done under the microscope within his mind. I'm not too sure where the book is going, however so far it seems to be a search for a suitable perspective for Raymont to have on his life...a good read so far.

[kratsayra]

I finished the book yesterday.

First let me say that it's funny because my real name is awfully close to Marijana and Marianna (closer to the latter, though not exact). And I don't usually encounter my name in books, with a few notable exceptions. Took some getting used to. ;)

I think for me the most interesting themes in the book were the consideration of history - what is history, whose history, does Australia have a history, what happens to someone's past when they migrate, etc

and also the consideration of "home." I really like the part where PR indirectly comments on how the word "home" is unique to the English language because in French it always has to be "chez soi" or "chez nous" or whatever. We had the same observation in a class that I was in a while ago. There is no word in French that is quite like the English word "home."

[papayahed]

and also the consideration of "home." I really like the part where PR indirectly comments on how the word "home" is unique to the English language because in French it always has to be "chez soi" or "chez nous" or whatever. We had the same observation in a class that I was in a while ago. There is no word in French that is quite like the English word "home."

Interesting how does "chez soi" or "chez nous" translate to english?


I'm about 6 chapters so the accident is still fairly new but Paul is so darn depressing.

[Niamh]

Yeah i'm also still a bit into the beginning. At the bit, i think, just as Marijana is showing him a picture of her son. I accidently left the book in work this morning and havent had the chance to read it all day.

Ben, i think Margaret is a Married friend of his that he had an affair with after his divorce....

[Weisinheimer]

Ok, I finished it. I thought it was ok. Pretty engrossing. I really like didn't the Costello woman, though. Whenever she was in the scene, I wanted her to go away. I don't why, I guess she kinda creeped me out some. I didn't really understand her character.

I like the quote "Here I am, killing time and being killed by time"

[kratsayra]

Interesting how does "chez soi" or "chez nous" translate to english?


I'm about 6 chapters so the accident is still fairly new but Paul is so darn depressing.

Isn't he though? ;)

When you get up to the part where Paul talks about home and the French words, he explains. But "chez" in this context stands for, I guess, "at the home of" - like when you think of a stereotypically French restaurant "Chez Jean" or whatever, it is like saying Jean's place.

So "Chez-soi" is like "your home" or just "at home" (depending on the context) and "chez-nous" is like "our home." "Chez-moi" is "my home," and "chez-toi" is "your home" etc.

So you can't just say "home" as an idea like in English ("chez" doesn't work by itself). In order to say "home" in French, you have to have the whole construction. The closest thing is "chez soi" since the "soi" is kind of an impersonal one/oneself. But still, it's not quite right.

And if someone wants to correct my ridiculous explanation of this minute point of French grammar, feel free. :)

[thelastmelon]

Ok, I finished it. I thought it was ok. Pretty engrossing. I really like didn't the Costello woman, though. Whenever she was in the scene, I wanted her to go away. I don't why, I guess she kinda creeped me out some. I didn't really understand her character.

I thought the same thing. But then I saw that Coetzee had written a book before he wrote Slow Man that was about Elizabeth Costello (that was also the title), and maybe that book would make it easier to realize what she was doing there and her part of the story. Cause she creeped me out a bit as well, and I never really got the hang of her.

[hellsapoppin]

As with Melon and Weisenheimer, I am also having trouble understanding who or what exactly is Costello. She appears to be what used to be called a ''deus ex machina'' contrivance with no real sense of realism. I'm half way through the book so perhaps I may still be able to figure out what exactly she is all about.

Raymont on the other hand is a very realistic character. A bit on the negative side, but his words and views are something most if not all of us can relate to.

[Weisinheimer]

As anyone read Elizabeth Costello?

[kratsayra]

I haven't read Elizabeth Costello but I'd be quite curious to.

At first I was really interested in her character because she was just so unreal. I wondered - how did she know all that stuff? what is really doing there? It almost seemed like really misplaced magical realism. ;)

But then I got quite tired of her. She doesn't really do much of anything. She barely even seems that useful in the story. Although I guess she does get Paul to make the critical visit towards the end of the book. She's so weird.

[Niamh]

What is the story with you one Elizabeth Costello? she's starting to make me not enjoy the book. Does anyone else think that she is a bit nonsensical to the story? Bit like the annoying voice in your head that you just want to shut up, but personified? I really hope he does pound her in the head with his crutch!!!!

[papayahed]

I've just met Elizabeth, so far she doesn't bug me. She reminds me of an Aunt, everybody has one, the kind that wear to much lipstick, always seems to know what's best for you and in most cases pushes you into doing it!!

[kratsayra]

So, how has everyone's reading been going. Anyone new done yet?

[Weisinheimer]

the more I think about the book, the less I like it. If i could I'd change my vote to the one below average (didn't like it much). I don't know, maybe it's because when I think about the book, all i think of is the costello woman. Maybe I should try to think about Marijana. I think she's my fav charater in the book.

[ben.!]

I just finished the book.

I wonder about the enigmatic Elizabeth Costello character. How did she know so much about him and his past, not to mention his present problems with Marijana and the Jokics?

She seemed to know what he was thinking before he even thought it. She must have done a lot of research on him prior or something...

[Weisinheimer]

I'm wondering what she meant when she said "you came to me."

[kratsayra]

Wouldn't it be weird if the whole book was really meant to be in Elizabeth Costello's head? I don't mean that seriously. But the part where Paul starts wondering if maybe he's already dead . . . it is that odd, how much she knows.

What do you think about the blind woman who Paul sees in the elevator and later ends up with via Elizabeth Costello's doing. It's so strange - you don't know, like Paul, who she really is or if Costello's story about her is actually true. It is kind of fun that the reader is just as much in the dark as Paul is.

[Niamh]

Hence why i think the book is nonsensical.

[papayahed]

The more I think about it I don't like Paul. I'm to the part where Drago is staying with Paul. Paul has seen what affect he is having on the Jokics yet he keeps pushing. He says he wants to protect and help but so far he hasn't done either.

[kratsayra]

The more I think about it I don't like Paul. I'm to the part where Drago is staying with Paul. Paul has seen what affect he is having on the Jokics yet he keeps pushing. He says he wants to protect and help but so far he hasn't done either.

Yeah, I don't like Paul much either. Just like I didn't like the main male narrator/character in Disgrace (the only other Coetzee book I've read). They just aren't the kind of men I'd want to be around. :rolleyes:

I'm trying to think which character I like . . . I guess all of the Jokics are pretty interesting.

[hellsapoppin]

I just completed the book and, overall, found it unsatisfactory. Perhaps the critics who wrote so glowingly about it, oversold the book. While it undoubtedly has considerable merit, it is certainly not a modern classic in any sense.

The first thought that came to me about Slow Man was the thought of dislocation: under apartheid, South Africa's racist rulers forced various tribes to move from their homelands into what to them were alien lands. Also, various tribes would be split into halves with certain clans broken up and sent into differing areas. This racist program lasted for many decades until it was broken up by international action. After apartheid was ended, many white South Africans voluntarily dislocated themselves from that land. When they did, they took treasures with them that had been ill gotten from SA's many under-privileged and exploited tribes.

JM Coetzee, like other South Africans who went into voluntary exile. And this is what I believe forms the basis for ''Slow Man''.

In the story we read of a Paul Rayment (a dislocated Frenchman -- he says ''I was uprooted as a child'' on p 192) who suffers a near tragic accident. He is attended to be a displaced Croatian nurse (one dislocated by war),and endures the seemingly endless nagging of a ''Costello woman'' said to be from another location in Australia. Interestingly, all the characters are Catholic.

Very early in the book we are told that Rayment is in despair. The first thought in my mind was the old line from Dante's ''Inferno'' which was abandon all hope ye who enter here! Indeed, he immediately thinks as a crematorium {p 13} which is a hell on earth. As for life and its cruelties, ''we don't have a choice'' {p 7}. His painful state of being is ''real but surreal'' {p 9}. He is now a ''prisoner'' {p 54}. Then, he tries to find some measure of redemptive love by falling in love with Mrs Jokic.

Enter the ''Costello woman'' like a 'deus ex machina' who tells him ''it is not the end of the world''. {84} Through her machinations Rayment determines ''we are all free agents''. {105} Various changes of scene take place and a misunderstanding occurs when Rayment learns that certain valuable property may not have been stolen as he thought (in Dante's ''Inferno'', the main character met many counterfeiters in hell and Rayment believes he has found some in Adelaide). He asks: ''am I alive or dead'' {p 233} with Costello replying that she has ''many mansions''. {p 234} Those of you who know the New Testament know that this is a line that Jesus spoke about the heavenly Kingdom. Thus, it makes you wonder: is Costello a Beatrice like figure from Dante or a messianic figure?? She often speaks in seemingly meaningless riddles just like Jesus spoke in parables with few people really understanding what he meant. Beatrice sent the poet Virgil to guide Dante through hell. Costello sends various characters into Rayment's life supposedly to steer him into the proper path.

The story ends with a reconciliation among the characters but no real resolution to the problems they have. Thus, one is left with many questions but no real answers as to the author's meanings in this book.

So what makes this book so appealing to the critics who lauded it so much? In all honesty, I have not been able to figure it out.

[Niamh]

Finished slow man today. It started off good but then it just kind of drove me a bit mad in the middle, and ended kinda alright. I didnt understand the point of Elizabeth at first but by the end of the book i liked her more than most of the characters. Her... how can i put it...Philosophy towards life was quite refreshing by the end of the book. I just didnt like Paul. I sympathized him but i dint love him as a character. I've voted Average in the poll. Kind of disapointed that this is what a nobel laureate wrote.

[papayahed]

Very early in the book we are told that Rayment is in despair. The first thought in my mind was the old line from Dante's ''Inferno'' which was abandon all hope ye who enter here! Indeed, he immediately thinks as a crematorium {p 13} which is a hell on earth. As for life and its cruelties, ''we don't have a choice'' {p 7}. His painful state of being is ''real but surreal'' {p 9}. He is now a ''prisoner'' {p 54}. Then, he tries to find some measure of redemptive love by falling in love with Mrs Jokic.

Enter the ''Costello woman'' like a 'deus ex machina' who tells him ''it is not the end of the world''. {84} Through her machinations Rayment determines ''we are all free agents''. {105} Various changes of scene take place and a misunderstanding occurs when Rayment learns that certain valuable property may not have been stolen as he thought (in Dante's ''Inferno'', the main character met many counterfeiters in hell and Rayment believes he has found some in Adelaide). He asks: ''am I alive or dead'' {p 233} with Costello replying that she has ''many mansions''. {p 234} Those of you who know the New Testament know that this is a line that Jesus spoke about the heavenly Kingdom. Thus, it makes you wonder: is Costello a Beatrice like figure from Dante or a messianic figure?? She often speaks in seemingly meaningless riddles just like Jesus spoke in parables with few people really understanding what he meant. Beatrice sent the poet Virgil to guide Dante through hell. Costello sends various characters into Rayment's life supposedly to steer him into the proper path.



Does anyone think Costello failed in this respect? Even at the end Paul tells Marijana "I could live in your backyard", "I could have put up a shed". He still doesn't realize how not a good idea that is? Then refuses Costello's offer?

Is this the story of a guy that can't adapt? (He won't get a prothesis, won't ride the new bike) The more I think about it the more a waste a time this book was, I guess I expected some type of growth, learning, something.

[Niamh]

yeah i know what you mean. But maybe that is the point. Maybe its to show that no mater how much you try, some people will never change...

[n_maw]

This is the first time I've participated in this book club. Glad to see that I wasn't the only one who did not enjoy this book. After I finished it I was afraid I'd get on the boards to find glowing reviews.

I didn't enjoy this book very much. I didn't like the characters, found the way they spoke very uncomfortable and unrealistic. Who is the world was Elizabeth Costello? Why did she know everything about everybody? I was hoping to get more resolution on this. Reminded me of the movie, Stranger than Fiction, how she was orchestrating everything but we were never told how she knew everything.

Paul was a very pathetic character who seemed to say everything exactly opposite of what he actually thought. I kind of felt sorry for him, this older man with no family, wishing that he had created a different life for himself and was trying to create it now. But he didn't put up very good fights to try to get the things that he wanted.

[thelastmelon]

And I can also add some of my feelings on the book, since I was the one to nominate it in the first place. I can only say this: It was not what I had expected, at all. I had expected more from the author and the book, that what I got in the end. My first impression was alright (you'll see that on how I voted) but as I continue to think about it, it sticks with me.. but only because it confuses me, and it bothers me that it wasn't as good as I had hoped.

I am going to give Disgrace a try instead. I am not giving up on Coetzee because of this book. :)

[hellsapoppin]

The critics also had high praise for Elizabeth Costello:

http://www.complete-review.com/reviews/coetzeej/elizacos.htm


While I can readily see that she is a form of literary gadfly, I fail to see how this makes the largely world weary character deserving of so much praise in Slow Man.

[hellsapoppin]

``Malleus maleficorum``

As before, this is old hat for those of you who are Catholic because you know this is an indictment against old witches. A few years ago I made a post which such an indictment against a pesky old woman who was unrelenting in her self righteous right wing views. Needless to say that my indictment was well received by most readers on that site.

Rayment uses this against Costello in the end of the book as he rejects her marriage proposal. In truth, I just cannot figure out why the hell he tolerated her for so long. But at least he came to his senses and got rid of her.

Costello is one character who does not really add anything to the book. It would have been a far better writing if Rayment had been portrayed as naturally endowed with the wisdom to settle his own affairs with rationality and common sense.

It's a tough and often crazy world. Coetzee brings up genuine issues that we all face and there can be no doubt that Rayment does represent many of us to some extent. But as responsible adults we chart our own courses and approach the solutions to those problems with confidence and determination. A fictive and totally unrealistic character like Costello is not likely to appear in anyone's life to assist in any settlement of difficult problems.

Unlike Rayment, I would not have rejected such an unrealistic and annoying vagabond in my life at the story's end. I would have slammed the door on her face immediately and called the cops on her if she dared hassle me. His life would have better without her. And the story would also have been better for the same reason.

[papayahed]

I have to disagree Hells. Elizabeth was a bright spot in the book, without her there would have been no movement. Elizabeth seems to me an extention of Paul's psyche, the part that is open to change and growth. She shows him there are other options to the way he sees his life. She offers him a new town, companionship (in herself and the blind lady), a connectedness to other human beings, all of which he refuses.

[hellsapoppin]

That's the beauty of literature --- it is something organic. Something very much alive. Something that is eternal. Thus, we see this art form differently from our own perspectives.

And who is to say that either of us is wrong?

Answer: nobody! :)

[WildCityWoman]

Well, I'm about to start this book - our group at High Park Library in Toronto is discussing it on the second Wednesday of July.

I'll put any comments I have on the book in here.

Carly

[WildCityWoman]

I've read a few pages with Jeff tonight . . . we like it.

So far? A man has an accident on a bicycle - he ends up in hospital and has had his leg amputated.

He's in a big fog, but tells the doctor he does not want a prosthesis.

............................................

I can't help wondering how I would feel about this myself. My mother lost a leg, because of diabetes . . . she was in such pain with the wound that wouldn't heal, she was glad to have the leg off.

............................................

Coincidentally - he is given the form to fill out and asks the nurse what the date is - it's July 2nd . . . heh! heh! It so happens that's the date on which I start the story.

I have a week to read as much of this as I can.

I'm going away for a couple of days - I'll come back and continue my thoughts in this wee journal here.

[WildCityWoman]

It's Saturday . . .

Read quite a bit of this book while I was away . . . I'm about 1/3 through it - gotta' have it finished by Wednesday night when we discuss it at the High Park Library, here in the west end of Toronto.

I've just finished up the part where that woman (whatzernameagain?) moved in - he doesn't know where she came from, she isn't saying but she's staying and that's that!

Don't know what's going to become of Marijana . . .

I'm curious as to how her name would be pronounced - Mary Jane Ah? Mary-Yawna? I kind of like the latter . . .

(If anybody's reading this - doubt it - but if you are and happen to live in Toronto, you might like to visit the High Park library at 6:30 pm this Wednesday and exchange your views with us)

I haven't (deliberately) read much of the members' comments here on this thread yet, but I will.

Just didn't want to prejudice my own thoughts on the read. Maybe I should wait till I'm finished and then respond to the comments here.

[WildCityWoman]

Marijana returns . . . Elizabeth Costella is now finagling to match him up with the blind woman.

Odd that the author named her 'Marianne'.

[WildCityWoman]

That was really wierd, the scene with him and the blind woman, Marianne.

[papayahed]

Marijana returns . . . Elizabeth Costella is now finagling to match him up with the blind woman.

Odd that the author named her 'Marianne'.

That did seem strange. I've been trying to figure out if there's any significance but nothing really pops out.


That was really wierd, the scene with him and the blind woman, Marianne.

Kinda skeevy.

[curlyqlink]

I read Slow Man about a month ago and I liked it. It wasn't quite up to the standard of the other two books of Coetzee's that I've read (Disgrace and Diary of a Bad Year) but I find him to be one the finest contemporary novelists and nothing short of brilliant. Disgrace is if anything darker and is certainly more intense. Diary is whimsical, in a twisted sort of way.

Coetzee seems to specialize in angry old men. His characters are far from lovable. They are intellectual, pompous, distant, proud, and insecure, damaged and querulous. Which puts me in mind of King Lear. These characters are not much good at solving life's problems and as a consequence the novels aren't going to present a happy resolution. In fact they don't offer much in the way of resolution at all.

I find a good deal of truthfulness in Coetzee's central characters. They offer a hard, uncompromising, and unapologetic look at men as they get old. Far from mythologizing the "golden years", these are men who are frustrated, petty, and horny, and who appear ridiculous in their own eyes as well as in other people's. They are men who neglected to "get wise before they got old."

[WildCityWoman]

Hey! Papa & Curly!

Thanks for joining me here - don't feel so lonely now.

Well, I'm still not sure what this 'Elizabeth' person is up to - why she's in there - is she 'real'? A 'ghost' of some kind? Dunno' . . . I'm going to read more today 'cause our discussion is on at the library tonight.

I'll take note of the comments that are made there. Maybe give this url, so others might like to sign on here.

[WildCityWoman]

Our group also read 'Disgrace' . . . a coupla' years ago, as I recall. Yes, it was better than this one.

I might read that book again sometime.

Right now, I'm at the part where he has told Elizabeth in no uncertain terms to get out and stay out - she returns with Drago, then Marijana shows up.

Have a feeling Drago and Marijana are going to move in with him? Well, I'll know soon - going to read as much as I can this afternoon.

(I also have a feeling he isn't going to get rid of Elizabeth that easily)

[WildCityWoman]

BTW, I often let a book I'm reading inspire me when I post my 'daily write' attempts . . . click here for two short pieces I wrote, with the blind Marianne character as my inspiration:

http://writersbbs.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?action=read&forum=daily_prompts_workshop&message=22267-22249

http://writersbbs.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?action=read&forum=daily_prompts_workshop&message=22268-22265

Some pretty wild feelings come out of my 'pen' when I attempt to write on things I wouldn't dream of doing - such as this 'prostitution' thing - taking money, 'cause M feels better about it.

In these two bits my character is 'Margaret' . . . I don't usually give 'Margaret' such eyebrow-raising roles, but if she 'exists' somewhere, just from having come from my wee stories, she might enjoy a bit of adventure.

[WildCityWoman]

We only had 6 people at the discussion (there's a neighbourhood meeting going on in our area - Roncesvalles Ave., Toronto) and a lot of people were at that meeting.

Something we all agreed upon, then changed our minds . . . we did not think Elizabeth had any real place in the story.

Then we all cogitated on whether she was real - we all ended up agreeing she is NOT real - she's part of Paul Rayment's mind!

That made me feel a whole lot better about Elizabeth!

And, I now know that the same character - Elizabeth - is in a previous novel by this author - ha! ha!

.................................................. ....

When asked if we would recommend this novel, all of us said 'not to every body' . . . there are people that wouldn't be interested in a story like this.

I skimmed through the rest of it in the late afternoon and more or less got the whole thing.

.................................................. ....

Although Paul is 'touched' and thrilled to pieces that Drago, Miroslav and Marijana would participated in putting this fabulous bike together for him, we didn't think Paul is ready to ride it. We get the feeling that he WILL use the vehicle, but he'll need to accept himself as somebody who needs it.

.................................................. ....

About Marijana and her family - I think this is what Paul was attracted to mostly . . . having a family - he was ready to adopt them all, including Miroslav.

Had they invited him to go live with them, he would have done so.

.................................................. .....

Elizabeth Costello told him that when he made some decisions and committed himself to something, one way or the other, then there'd be no reason for her to be there.

And at the end of the story, he sends her off, and she's happy to leave.

[WildCityWoman]

In my opinion, this is a really good story; it reflects real life and how people really are.

Now, I'm ready to read through all the comments from this thread.

[WildCityWoman]

I'm still pretty early on in the book. But I didn't realize (until I started reading) that the book is actually set in Australia rather than South Africa.

So I am looking, as I read, to see if there are any elements of the book that are somehow informed by Coetzee's South African background.

That kinda' throws me too, K . . . but not that I didn't know. He wrote this one in Australia.

Our book club tonight, all agreed - there is very little about Australia in the book. Anyone who is a fan of Australian based books, would be disappointed.

For me, it didn't matter - it could have been England, the US, or Canada for that matter.

[WildCityWoman]

I finished the book yesterday.

First let me say that it's funny because my real name is awfully close to Marijana and Marianna (closer to the latter, though not exact). And I don't usually encounter my name in books, with a few notable exceptions. Took some getting used to. ;)

I think for me the most interesting themes in the book were the consideration of history - what is history, whose history, does Australia have a history, what happens to someone's past when they migrate, etc

and also the consideration of "home." I really like the part where PR indirectly comments on how the word "home" is unique to the English language because in French it always has to be "chez soi" or "chez nous" or whatever. We had the same observation in a class that I was in a while ago. There is no word in French that is quite like the English word "home."

Are you still here, K? If so, can you tell me - how do you pronounce the name 'Marijana'? I'm pronouncing it as 'Mary-Yawnah', rather than Marianna.

[WildCityWoman]

Ok, I finished it. I thought it was ok. Pretty engrossing. I really like didn't the Costello woman, though. Whenever she was in the scene, I wanted her to go away. I don't why, I guess she kinda creeped me out some. I didn't really understand her character.

I like the quote "Here I am, killing time and being killed by time"

Oh, I liked that line too - I tried to remember it so I could bring it up at tonight's book discussion, but it left my mind completely.

'Being killed by time' . . . oh, that says it so well.

[WildCityWoman]

OK . . . one last thing from me tonight . . . I'm amused at how people identify with Elizabeth . . . some think of her as being a typical 'aunt' . . . somebody at our club tonight thought of her as being the Cathy Bates character in 'Misery' . . . know how I see Elizabeth?

In Shrek . . . the fairy godmother - the one that gets pretty nasty when things don't go her way . . .

That's how I see Elizabeth.

Once I realized she isn't a 'real person', I liked her a lot better.

There is a writer called EC? Well, fine and dandy, but Paul's 'Elizabeth Costello' isn't real.

I think she's his conscience, his higher self - and she'll tug on his shirttail, till he makes a decision himself - once he 'commits', she's outta' there.

Besides, why would a successful novelist be wanting a depressing old fart like Paul Rayment?

Another ha ha! for myself.

Carly :-)

[WildCityWoman]

Finished!

And no . . . I still don't believe Elizabeth was real - still think she's a figment of Rayment's imagination.

Good book.