Women in the Odyssey

[penelope_1]

Quick question that I need an answer to for a paper I am writing. At any point in the Odyssey by Homer does one of the Gods talk or send a sign down to Penelope(odysseus's wife)? or would it be safe to say that the God's really only communicate with the males?? also, if they do communicate with the women, can you tell me where?

thank you very much

[Oniw17]

Haven't you read it?

[Petrarch's Love]

An interesting question penelope_1. Penelope does describe a dream she has to Odysseus (though she doesn't yet know he is Odysseus) in book 19--around line 620 in my translation. The dream is about twenty fat geese killed by an eagle, and Odysseus interprets it to predict his homecoming. So she does receive a sign in the form of a dream, though she needs a man to interpret it for her. I can't remember offhand any instance of the gods communicating directly with Penelope. There are, of course female gods like Athena who play a strong role, and there's Kirke, who has powerful magic and discourse with the gods, but she's half immortal. As I was typing this it occurred to me that the goddess Athena does speak directly with Nausikaa, the young princess Odysseus meets down by the river in book 6, so the gods do seem to communicate with at least one mortal woman directly (or at least as directly as they communicate with anyone;) ). Anyway, good luck with your paper.

[bluevictim]

The clearest examples of gods directly communicating with women in the Odyssey that I can think of are when Athena speaks to Penelope at the end of book 4, and (as Petrarch's Love mentioned) when Athena speaks to Nausikaa at the beginning of book 6. At the end of book 4 (lines 795-841), Athena reassures Penelope of Telemachus' safety, speaking through a likeness of Iphthime as she (Penelope) sleeps. At the beginning of book 6 (lines 15-40), Athena, speaking in the likeness of the daughter of Dymas while Nausikaa is asleep, urges Nausikaa to do her laundry.

There are some less clear examples that are probably worth considering:

As Nausikaa's companions fled at the sight of Odysseus, Athena "put boldness in her [Nausikaa's] heart and took fear out of her limbs" (book 6, lines 139-140); this expression is often used when a god assists men in battle in the Iliad.

In book 15, Helen interprets an omen for Menelaus and Telemachus, "as the immortals put it in [her] bosom" (lines 172-173).

In book 19, Penelope attributes the idea of weaving and undoing a web to stall the suitors to a divinity (a "daimon", line 138), and as Petrarch's Love mentioned, she asks Odysseus to interpret a prophetic dream (lines 535-569, in a more standard line numbering).

I guess I wouldn't really say that the gods only communicate with the males, in light of the examples above. However, I can't think of any instances in the Odyssey where a god speaks directly to a mortal woman while she is awake (though there is an obvious example in the Iliad -- when Aphrodite compels Helen to have sex with Paris at the end of book 3). Maybe there is some significance in that.

[Petrarch's Love]

Thanks Bluevictim, I'd forgotten that Athena spoke to Penelope at the end of book 4. It is interesting that she always seems to be asleep when the gods speak to her. It seems to me that generally speaking women are frequently associated with prophetic dreams in classical lit., possibly even more so than men who more often encounter the gods directly. That's just an impression, though.

[bluevictim]

It seems to me that generally speaking women are frequently associated with prophetic dreams in classical lit., possibly even more so than men who more often encounter the gods directly. That's just an impression, though.That raises an interesting point about the Odyssey. In the Iliad, the only dreams that I can think of come to men -- the false dream of Agamemnon in book 2, the appearance of Patroclus to Achilles in book 23, and Hermes' night visit to Priam in book 24. In the Greek tragedies, the significant dreams do seem to come to women (lending support to your impression).

In the Odyssey, women receive the significant dreams, but men also receive night time visitations even though they aren't technically "dreams". For the women, we've already mentioned Nausikaa's dream in book 6 and Penelope's dreams in books 4 and 19; Penelope also has a dream of Odysseus sleeping beside her in book 20 (lines 87-90). This is the same night when Athena visits Odysseus to reassure him of her support while he is tossing and turning in anxiety over how to overcome the suitors (book 20, lines 30-55). In this visit, Athena "stood over his head", just like she did when she talked to Penelope and Nausikaa in their sleep (as did the dream which visited Agamemnon in book 2, and the ghost of Patroclus in book 23, and Hermes in book 24 of the Iliad). In book 15, Telemachus has a similar visit from Athena. She comes to him at night when everyone around is asleep but he is awake because of anxiety over his father. This time, she "stood near" Telemachus, (rather than over his head) just like any other waking visit. I find it kind of interesting because it seems almost as if the Odyssey represents an intermediate stage of a process in which women crowd the men out of the divine dreams "market".

Or maybe I'm way off because I've missed some important examples.

[Chocoholic8a]

In book18 Athena comes to Penelope and gives her a plan in her headand gives her good sleep!