Remembering Arthur Miller: 'The Crucible'

[Scheherazade]

Please post your thoughts/questions regarding The Crucible here and join our poll! Hapyy reading! :)

[papayahed]

Ok, I have the book.

[Jay]

Ok, I have the book booked :p

[papayahed]

hmmmmmmm.... are people messing with me?? or am I just paranoid.

[Jay]

nah, I'm the paranoid one :D

[Scheherazade]

Is anyone else amazed that how quickly the hysteria spreads and how readily people believe in girls' claims without taking a moment to question things?

[Jay]

I liked the play a lot, so I voted the 5 stars option :)

It's really weird how the people are guliable (spell?). Gets one wondering if the witchcraft was really what they were after. It gave them a lot of power and people like to have power. Also what in any other time would have been called something else, like for example ... can't think of an example, but suddenly all that's suspicious is called witchcraft. When one has an opinion that 'doesn't fit', they're suddenly Satan's followers.

[Scheherazade]

Danforth: ...But you must understand, sir, that a person is either with this court or he must be counted against it, there be no road between. This sums up the feeling very well, I think. And also the political atmosphere in many cases, even in present times ;) Creating a common enemy -Satan in this case- and causing public hysteria till noone can argue or disagree with you seem to be a wonderful tactic while dealing with sensitive issues.

Any thoughts on the relationship between Elizabeth and John?

[Jay]

You don't know what you have until you lose it (or come near to losing it) comes to mind...

[papayahed]

you guys are way ahead of me....I just reached Act 2.

[Jay]

You're way ahead with Orlando :)
The Crucible almost reads itself, it's one of those books you can't put away before finishing it... so I read it in a day, liked it.
What do you think about it as far, Papaya?

[papayahed]

ok, I finished it last night. It was pretty good, only problem I have is that it was hard keeping the characters straight (but it kinda didn't matter all that much). It's quite an interesting term: "Your either with the court or your against the court". It would have been good to see what happened to the girls after the hysteria had died down.

[Scheherazade]

An interesting link about Salem trials:

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/features/97/salem/

[lhaeber]

Quote Scheherazade---This sums up the feeling very well, I think. And also the political atmosphere in many cases, even in present times ;) Creating a common enemy -Satan in this case- and causing public hysteria till noone can argue or disagree with you seem to be a wonderful tactic while dealing with sensitive issues.


How 'bout McCarthyism? Isn't that why he wrote The Crucible? To criticize Joseph McCarthy?

Has anyone read of "Memorable Providences"? I was told this was the book that came out about witchcraft just before the first girl became "ill", the people of Salem referenced it, in a way.

[Scheherazade]

How 'bout McCarthyism? Isn't that why he wrote The Crucible? To criticize Joseph McCarthy?

It is true that Miller had McCarthy's anti-Communist 'which hunts' in mind while writing 'The Crucible'; however, the value of the play lies with the fact that the political points it makes are universal and timeless. We can still see the examples of public hysteria, "common enemy" and 'a person is either with this court or he must be counted against it' sentiment (I do not wish to bring politics into this but have a look at recent world history).


How do you feel about the fact that Miller took the liberty of changing certain facts while re-telling a historical events? (e.g., Abigail was only 11 and Proctor was in his 60s at the time of the trial, which makes their affair rather unlikely).

[papayahed]

How do you feel about the fact that Miller took the liberty of changing certain facts while re-telling a historical events? (e.g., Abigail was only 11 and Proctor was in his 60s at the time of the trial, which makes their affair rather unlikely).


Oh, didn't know that. I guess it wouldn't be a good story if that were the case.

[Jay]

I think him changing the facts was for the purpose of the story and to make it more... believable (if that's even a word). I don't think Miller said that he was retelling the processes as they happened, as far as I'm concerned he just used the themes and characters and whatnot to get a point across, in which case him changing the facts would be unimportant for the message, unless you're looking for historical value of the play.

[papayahed]

I just can't seem to figure out how the adults were pulled in by the young girls, and in the end wasn't it just Danforth (was that his name-the head judge guy) who believed the girls?

[lhaeber]

Look at all the sexual abuse cases in the last ten years, maybe longer, especially the daycares...i think alot of parents help their children to make sense of things, they add on to the stories, they push the kids to tell and the kids get attention. Not all that simple, but it's a small posting box.

[Scheherazade]

You mean parents put words into their children's mouths? It is a possibility... In the play, the adults sometimes ask 'what do you see?'/'do you see something?' and the girls start describing things...

To answer papaya's question... I also wondered that while reading. I think the girls felt the need to blame witchcraft why they were dancing in the forest etc... And since they admitted their 'sin', people thought they had to be telling the truth when they gave others' names...

[papayahed]

Even from the beginning there was a bit of a fear of witchcraft, maybe that was the catalyst. hmmm.......I wonder how/where that fear started? I may have to do some reading.....

[lhaeber]

Try to find "Memorable Providences". That's the book that is referred to in the trials.

[Scheherazade]

The basis for the Salem trials was superstition but do you think we are still prone to public hysteria today?

[papayahed]

The basis for the Salem trials was superstition but do you think we are still prone to public hysteria today?


Maybe not to the same extent, but definately. The way the media rams things down peoples thoats.

[Jay]

The basis for the Salem trials was superstition but do you think we are still prone to public hysteria today?
Oh yeah, sometimes people seem to be looking for a witch to burn... figuratively speaking. All you need is a stupid idea and a lot of people following such a stupid idea.

[lhaeber]

or a man with a flute and a nearby cliff...

[Anselmus]

I actually started reading the play again from page one in an attempt to efficiently participate in a discussion. I was surprised, as if I didn't realize it the first time, how perfectly poised the community was for a tragedy to occur.

The religious leader of these people, Mr. Parris, “believed he was being persecuted wherever he went, despite his best efforts to win people and God to his side”. A religious leader that felt persecuted by God? Who felt he needed to ‘win God to his side’? So, adding to the following points of tension fueled from the harsh environment, the community was also questioned on their faith every time they attended services, which were virtually mandatory. Services delivered, in the name of God, seeking vengeance for his unjust persecutions – so he believes.

The community of Salem was on the very edge of the 'savage frontier' and, until recently, was always on edge for fear of infringements from the Indians. “It (the American continent stretching endlessly west) stood, dark and threatening, over their shoulders night and day…” The older residents would be commonly anxious of the sudden appearance of a new threat. They were conditioned to be paranoid, and were likely frustrated constantly. To further illustrate this, “…the Salem folk believed that the virgin forest was the Devil’s last preserve, his home base and the citadel of his final stand. To the best of their knowledge the American forest was the last place on earth not paying homage to God”. They believed they were living on Hells doorstep. Fear and apprehension were inbred in the adults. The children could see this, even feel it in the air, but had no understanding of it.

Also, the produce of the community had recently begun to become more valuable and external dangers were diminishing, causing increased and more intense conflicts of personal competition. “…the time of the armed camp had almost passed, and since the country was reasonably – although not wholly – safe, the old disciplines were beginning to rankle.” Letting slip the vice “more than the creed, hard work kept the morals of the place from spoiling…” The necessity of unity for safety was slipping as the dangers from Indians was lessening and the rigid boundaries of the culture were softening, and the religious creed with it.

Salem was severely cut off from other civilized communities. Other civilized communities believed “…the whole province was a barbaric frontier inhabited by a sect of fanatics…” Isolated, the people of Salem “carried about an air of innate resistance, even of persecution. Their fathers had…been persecuted in England. So now they and their church found it necessary to deny any other sect its freedom, lest their New Jerusalem be defiled and corrupted by wrong ways and deceitful ideas.” They not only feared attack from savage, native Indians, but also from the other communities that didn’t share their ideas and beliefs.

All of these circumstances creating an innate paranoia and frustration in the daily lives of the adults among the community - but not the children. All of the paranoia and pent-up frustration simply bored and frustrated the children; not personally knowing the dangers that the older people have seen and experienced, the youth would not acknowledge the justification of such rigid society.
To set the tragedy up even more, the adults - at least most of them – “regarded them (the children) as young adults, … never conceived that the children were anything but thankful for being permitted to walk straight, eyes slightly lowered, arms at the sides, and mouths shut until bidden to speak”.
Giving them credit for adult-like maturity (accounting for people believing their accounts of demonology) and, undoubtedly, underestimating their brazen creativity and the strain caused by the social depravity of the community, put the children in a prime position to achieve this facade.

Witchcraft was simply the most convenient enemy to accredit any semblance of sin.


*Not ideally structured - sorry.* I was just surprised at how 'on the verge' this community was.

Also, there were numerous instances of the adults 'leading' the children in their testimony. As touched on previously. Hale asked if 'something was moving in the pot' of Parris, who then volunteers he saw something move. Then, Abigail says there was a frog in it only after Hale suggested a list of living creatures that could have been in it, ending with 'frog'.

Later, when Mary was trying to convince the court that all of the girls were being pretensious, Abigail described 'a cold wind', which Hale had previously mentioned as typical of witchcraft, and she saw a bird in the rafters, which again Hale had previously suggested witches would cast images of things, including ?a yellow bird?.

I'm not certain, because my time is limited and I read slow, but I'd wager to say that any specific description of witchcraft was first described by an adult, before it was used by any of the children.

[Taliesin]

The basis for the Salem trials was superstition but do you think we are still prone to public hysteria today?

Yes, probably. The most significant thing about public hysteria is that the people do not understand that they are under it. They think that they are doing the right thing-

[Scheherazade]

I was surprised, as if I didn't realize it the first time, how perfectly poised the community was for a tragedy to occur.
I would agree with you, Anselmus that the conditions in Salem were very suitable for such public hysteria.
Religion played a very important role in these people's lives; they tried to lead religious lives to be rewarded with an afterlife in Heaven. Yet, they had just encountered with natives, whose way of life both unfamiliar and unusual to them. So it was very easy to accept the existance of some supernatural powers in play when they faced some unusual occurances among themselves and it is said before, children can be very impressionable.

Just as I was typing this message I could not help wondering if these rumours about witches and other so called 'supernatural' powers were spread by those 'who-know-better'... to keep people believing in God (as they will need some greater power to help them and seek refuge in religion), keep them coming to church etc. I don't mean only in Salem but in general. If people did not think that Satan is not out there, it would be hard to persuade them to lead 'religious' lives, I guess.

I think we can see examples of this in politics too... Create a so-called, dangerous enemy and if you manage to persuade people to its existance, you can then get them do anything you want with the promise of protection and safety.

[Anselmus]

You know what I just realized; shouting 'witch' in Salem during that time frame could be comparable to shouting 'terrorist' today... Incidently, I think it's kind of sad that just dawned on me, lol.

It's politics, I know, but I just had to post it somewhere.

[papayahed]

You know what I just realized; shouting 'witch' in Salem during that time frame could be comparable to shouting 'terrorist' today... Incidently, I think it's kind of sad that just dawned on me, lol.

It's politics, I know, but I just had to post it somewhere.

I was thinking the same thing after reading your post, but couldn't figure out how to say it without bringing politics into it.

[Scheherazade]

I think we can see examples of this in politics too... Create a so-called, dangerous enemy and if you manage to persuade people to its existance, you can then get them do anything you want with the promise of protection and safety.
That is what I was trying to get at without saying it in so many words when I posted the above message :D

OK... No politics... Moving on swiftly... ;)

[Scheherazade]

did you know about the play before hand? before the club reading?

no. just liked the name.

what do you think of the title then?
before and after reading?

i thought it was that thing you use in chemistry

just looked up what 'crucible' means

i was wondering how the title associates with the book

I was very confused about the title before starting to read it
wondered how it would relate

was it like ...testing?

I'm not too big on titles, don't think about that part of a work

if the acid is real/if the person is Witch

yep, testing by fire

ah yes
must try it in chemistry

what do you think of it now after reading it?

I think it's about testing the reader

if the person is a witch then he will burn when he touches it

i thought it refers to seperation of people with rules from people without rules
ie morals
like proctor stands out

lawful vs chaotic

kind of yes
some people gave in

moral vs immoral? well, me thinks

you know DD terms?

well, there are two possibilities of alignment: goodvs evil and chaotic vs lawful
so good equals not with lawful

I kinda agree, what's lawful doesn't mean it's good

that is true
because in terms of law, proctor is guilty
or those who refuse to cooperate
but are they bad?

laws are changing things
depend on the time

that is true as well but there are still things which might be detable

going back to title, do you think it makes sense? Miller's choice was a good one?

it is certainly..intriguing

not cliche

it is not
i didnt know what crucible meant until i heard about this play

also, it sounds a bit like "crucify"

that is interesting

what is the thing you liked most about the play?

I like its subject matter
how timeless it is
we can all relate to it in our countries and even today...
all around the world

me liked it overall
couldn't put it down, but to say what the best part was

you liked everything about it?

almost

well, not the bad guys, or the way the people are so easilly gullible

me too me too

well, we need the bad guys to appreciate the good ones

of course

unless there is bad, how do we define the good?

I just might not like them

yesyes, literatully they were ok, but as persons

who is your least favorite character?

that judge

Abigail I think

all that i have condemned so many people and therefore i am correct

mine were the Putnams

shouldn't it be the other way round?

i have a truble with names

their daughter blamed everyone with whom they had issue with
especially land/border problems

it was strange
i mean, a person seventeen years old has no conscience?

well, yeah, why not?

but miller gives an explanation for abbigail's behaviour as well...

yes
but was it necessary to blaim half the damn town
they could also have confessed
and get away with it

if they did, they'd lose their land, not?

if they confessed they'd lose anyway

and they also had to give other people's names
do you think you would 'confess'?

I'd like to think I wouldn't

why the ''s?

as they did nothing wrong, there's nothing to confess

the '' are there because there wouldnt be anything confess because you havent done anything wrong
at least not witchcraft

they lied about the other people
they did withcraft
with tituba

well, we are talking about ourselves

by "they could have confessed", i mean that when one of these girls wanted to say that they lied about all those people, the others should have supported her
not playing a fool and acting as bewitched

oh you mean Mary?

yes, her

she tried to tell the truth but the gang turned on her

i mean, it is like, the gang had no empathy
just saving their own as..necks
from some light punishment

yes
it all started like that, didnt it?
they blamed tituba not to get punished for their silly doings

tituba was cool

well, silly... what's wrong with dancing naked in a forest?

yes

when you remember where you put your clothes

we are talking about 400 years ago

what do you think of that, that the theocracy was broken after that incident described in the book?

people realised how dangerous it could be...
blind submission
beyond reasoning
and any questioning

the reaction ended in an explosion

nobody seemed to think that those people whom they knew all their lives as good cannot be evil doers

coouldn't it be a positive point, if there was one, that theocracy ended?

you mean those who lot their lives were sacrificed for a good cause? or not in vain?

there was a little good in it
like all that tension was released
it was a terrible society
nothing was permitted

I think we would like to believe that we learnt our lessons.. but have we?

there was so little to do: work, pray, eat, drink brandy, and make children

considering the reason Miller wrote the play for...

it probably was very--tensionous?
he wanted to avoid the explosion?
burning all the leftwingers

after hiroshima, you would think that people would not even talk about atom boms/nuclear weapons but so many countries still have them
wasn't the current politics in Millers time witchhunting communists

but there was more to it
like in salem, people were asked to give names of their friends who attended communist meetings
or who were members of the communist party at the time
and some did
and those who did got away easy
again like it happened in salem

it was 'you are either with us or against us'

dualism
devil versus god
pick your sides, ladies and gentlemen

and being on'their side' meant answering all the questions asked
like names, places etc
many intellectual minds of the time suffered

they said that they were democratic, but that the capitalist countries were considered bad
how do we know that the next generation won't look on the US as we are looking on SU?

it is a good thing that these things get questioned
even through literature
but how much do we learn really??

what did you think of the fact that Miller changed some facts to write his play?

the change of abigail(11->17) is strange

no problem with that, it wasn't supposed to be a historical play... though what historical play is 'historical' in the historical sense of meaning of the word

it would seem logical when abigail was eleven, but when she is 17, her behaiour is strange

many people who have only seen the play will assume thast that is the case

a woman spurned...

[Scheherazade]

I wish Miller had changed the names of the characters etc so that he could still write about Salem but without misinforming people

how many of those who have seen the movie do you think would be bothered to read about Salem and realise that Abi was actually 11 and didnt have revenge at heart
it changes the way people look at the things

miller wanted to make abigail bad
a concpiracy

so if miller had changed the names, but still told the same tale, it would have been better

I think he had two concerns
1. communism and the fact that he realised the similarity between the witch hunt and communist hunt
2. he wanted to write a good play

3. and make money

so he didnt mind sacrificing certain things
but I really wish he hadnt

what do you think of elizabeth?

i liked elizabeth, though she could have said that her husband had been makingout with abigail
in the court

that was sad, wasnt it?
trying to protect her husband's name...
she lied

it sounds so inconceivable in some ways
considering where the morals are today
how easily people get in and out of marriages
rather than going around bad mouthing abi and her husband, she tried to protect him
and in a way, she protected abi too

conflict between lawful and good
if she had been lawful neutral, she would probably have saved them

conflict between dignity and self gratification?
I am sure she would have liked to see Abi got punished...
she actually blamed her husband for not telling others about his affair with Abi
but she never did it herself

conflict between telling the truth and saving his husband
which tragically turned out the other way round

what do you think about the whole trial
the courty bit i mean

they were nonsensical

very different from what we are used to, surely

the judge was very unlikeable

very 'he said/she said'

who'd need a court when you have a girl acusing you of witchcraft, the court wsn't able to prevent the deaths of the acused even when they knew they weren't guilty

a court to prove them innocent?

do you think Proctor should have confessed?
did you wish he did while reading?

he could have confessed by his name but not blamed others

but that wasnt an option

but if they did, probably the events wouldnt have developed as they did afterwards

if they had, well, they would have been saved, but who else?
they could not save others by confessing

they could not save them... but if everyone confessed

if they'd confess it'll mean the other acused were guilty

yes, but they could say "Praise lord, praiselord, i was bad, i love jesus etc

the fact that those good people did not confess/ did not give in and died made Salem stand out in the history so much and had the effect on theocracy

though, looking in that direction, it hasn't really changed that much there

well at least it changed seemingly

it was lawful to blame people for witchcraft and punish them in those days
not anymore
but we have different evils which are similar today

anyone who's different in any way

anyone you can blame

also... do you feel that sometimes these so-called enemies are created to serve greater purposes?

you need to blame someone

or divert people's attention somewhere else

who was your favourite character?

hale

and corey too

the Proctors

in the beginnig hale was the person i did not like
but in the end i liked him the best

hale because of his transformation and the fact that he didnt mind admitting that what they were doing was wrong

and Giles was just plain cool

the way he resisted

btw, how would you find a witch, whenyou really believed that they existed in that form
that you lived in a society like that
and witchery would be a dangerous and serious problem
then you understnad the need that witches must be killed
or brought over to God

it is so amazing though
that someone's mere suggestion would be enugh to get someone hanged
burned

how did the judge speak about witchcraft?
that it was acrime where there could be no witnesses
unless there were other witches
and only the witch, the victim and other witches could tell
nothing for CSI to work on

so no way out?

but still, how to find a witch, if it was really important?
so that they wouldn't bring people over to the devil's side
when looking from that time's point of view

when puting oneself to the pointofview of the 16th century fanatical christian
then witches are certainly a problem
and you had to get rid of them
so you hadno physical evidene
just the victim's/witches/other witch's confession
motives are possible too

though you could explain it that the witch's motive was to serve satan

the accusers claimed that
that the witches served satan
but how about their motives?
the names picked?

the judge had two possibilities: to believe or not believe abigail

first it was the people noone liked in the society
but then the personal vendettas were brought into play
funny thing is that none is safe
if judge turned against them, they could have even blamed the judge

bit would have been unwiseut you can be safe when you blame your neighbour before he blames you

imagine living in such an atmosphere
noone is safe
kind of 1984

and you are safe not even then when you are totally commited
in 1984 you were kind of safe when you were totally blindly loyal to the party

but if someone blamed you?
no way to clean your name

the party knew
if or if not you were loyal
they didn't have the witch dilemma
they were omniscient

remember how you could get away when you blamed someone else and did a lot of praiselording
it was kindof a hot potato

only way to sort the problem was to find a witch... or witches

so do you think you would confess?

pyramid blaming

i can very well imagnie such little girls blaming others and stuff

I think I can imagine living in Salem as well... afraid to do/say anything in case someone decides to find you ... rather uncomfortable

and just the thought that your word has no value if you are blamed
or what kind of person you have been
what kind of life you have led
it adds up to nothing

and if you send someone to death, how can you live with yourself afterwards?

in the first chapters everyone is like' no, they would not hang anyone'...

was there any possiblility of avoiding the thing

of course, if people were perfect...

men would be angels?
and there were no laws?

there's gotta be at least some laws

if children hadnt got ill, probably there hadnt been a salem incident

true
but what about the kids having fresh air and witching in the forest
was its reason too that sickness

that was boredom i guess
imagine a life nothing is allowed
pray, work and sleep

what do you think of tituba?

she's ok

i liked how tituba portrayed devil
a nice man, cmoking a cigar, will take me back to Barbados

concerning tituba....well, she was kind of a pagan

she was a native
so probably she was

a mix of christianity and paganism

and probably the whites forced her to convert to 'civilize' her

to her, witching was not such a bad thing at all

part of the culture

kind of home remedies

[GangstaConnie]

The character I most despise is Anne Putnam Sr. If any of you have researched the Salem Witch Trials in more depth, it is to be found that it is she who fed her daughter the names of women she had slight grudges against. She utterly used her child for her own malicious will. It's sad enough that little girls had that much control over the community, but being manipulated by an adult, who is supposed to be honest and grown up? That's disgusting.

[GangstaConnie]

And to think that this happened in the U.S.? It's rather embarassing that in America, the word of a bunch of a little girls was used as evidence in a court and death sentences?

[Neo93]

In Act I of Arthur Miller's play, The Crucible, the characters of Abigail, Betty, and thier friends charge many of the villagers with the serious crime of witchcraft. Although Abigail really gets the ball rolling on the salem witch hunt, The entire community seems quite ready to accept that thier are witches in thier midst. Why do you think that all of these Puritans are so easily drawn in and why do they play along with the girls?

[applepie]

The setting of the play was in the midst of the witch hunts in the states. This was more or less an extension of the Inquisition in Europe, and it was perfectly logical to people that there may be witches and warlocks. After all, the Church had told them they were present, and the Church was to be trusted in all things. It was a time when people were suspicious and scared. The girls played on these feeling among the townspeople.

[MasterAlex]

because it was common to think that it was true and that they wouldn't lie because they were puritans.

[*Classic*Charm*]

In Act I of Arthur Miller's play, The Crucible, the characters of Abigail, Betty, and thier friends charge many of the villagers with the serious crime of witchcraft. Although Abigail really gets the ball rolling on the salem witch hunt, The entire community seems quite ready to accept that thier are witches in thier midst. Why do you think that all of these Puritans are so easily drawn in and why do they play along with the girls?

Miller's position in writing The Crucible was to demonstrate the desperate desire everyone has deep down to find answers to things they can't explain, and furthermore, their vulnerability in that they are willing to stand behind the most absurd causes in order to find explanations. The puritains were a good example bcause their faith lends credibility to the fact that they should not have been looking for answers- their faith should have been enough to sustain them and yet, they are human- they still seek answers. This is a direct parallel to McCarthyism in the US, as people were looking for an answer to all the issues going on in the country (particularly Communism), and they were willing to accept the rediculous and unfair mesasures that McCarthy was using.


Just to mention for those who haven't already heard me rave about this play in other threads, I WORSHIP this play. :D

[purplecowmoo]

I read it, and really liked it, but then we studied it in Drama and my teacher is obsessive so she picked it apart until it died. I remember us discussing the various undertones of the scene with the bird on the rafters. *sigh*