D.H.Lawrence ~ The Tortoise Poems [Archive]

Janine

06-14-2007, 10:41 PM

We will be discussing D.H.Lawrence's Tortoise poems. I have posted the first of several poems. Each is uniquely distinct in their themes, ideas, symbolism, etc. This first poem deals with the birth of a baby tortoise, now being quite alone, in it's first days of life, and it's remarkable struggle to survive on earth. Wonderful poem and wonderful imagery!

Baby Tortoise
by D.H. Lawrence

You know what it is to be born alone,
Baby tortoise!

The first day to heave your feet little by little from
the shell,
Not yet awake,
And remain lapsed on earth,
Not quite alive.

A tiny, fragile, half-animate bean.

To open your tiny beak-mouth, that looks as if it would
never open
Like some iron door;
To lift the upper hawk-beak from the lower base
And reach your skinny neck
And take your first bite at some dim bit of herbage,
Alone, small insect,
Tiny bright-eye,
Slow one.

To take your first solitary bite
And move on your slow, solitary hunt.
Your bright, dark little eye,
Your eye of a dark disturbed night,
Under its slow lid, tiny baby tortoise,
So indomitable.

No one ever heard you complain.

You draw your head forward, slowly, from your little
wimple
And set forward, slow-dragging, on your four-pinned toes,
Rowing slowly forward.
Wither away, small bird?
Rather like a baby working its limbs,
Except that you make slow, ageless progress
And a baby makes none.

The touch of sun excites you,
And the long ages, and the lingering chill
Make you pause to yawn,
Opening your impervious mouth,
Suddenly beak-shaped, and very wide, like some suddenly
gaping pincers;
Soft red tongue, and hard thin gums,
Then close the wedge of your little mountain front,
Your face, baby tortoise.

Do you wonder at the world, as slowly you turn your head
in its wimple
And look with laconic, black eyes?
Or is sleep coming over you again,
The non-life?

You are so hard to wake.

Are you able to wonder?
Or is it just your indomitable will and pride of the
first life
Looking round
And slowly pitching itself against the inertia
Which had seemed invincible?

The vast inanimate,
And the fine brilliance of your so tiny eye,
Challenger.

Nay, tiny shell-bird.
What a huge vast inanimate it is, that you must row
against,
What an incalculable inertia.

Challenger,
Little Ulysses, fore-runner,
No bigger than my thumb-nail,
Buon viaggio.

All animate creation on your shoulder,
Set forth, little Titan, under your battle-shield.
The ponderous, preponderate,
Inanimate universe;
And you are slowly moving, pioneer, you alone.

How vivid your travelling seems now, in the troubled
sunshine,
Stoic, Ulyssean atom;
Suddenly hasty, reckless, on high toes.

Voiceless little bird,
Resting your head half out of your wimple
In the slow dignity of your eternal pause.
Alone, with no sense of being alone,
And hence six times more solitary;
Fulfilled of the slow passion of pitching through
immemorial ages
Your little round house in the midst of chaos.

Over the garden earth,
Small bird,
Over the edge of all things.

Traveller,
With your tail tucked a little on one side
Like a gentleman in a long-skirted coat.

All life carried on your shoulder,
Invincible fore-runner

ktd222

06-19-2007, 12:14 PM

Janine

06-19-2007, 05:32 PM

I think perception plays an important part in defining this poem. I notice the speaker observing this baby tortoise being born and recognizing the unimaginable weight that it carries. He defines this weight as “all animate creation.” So there is really no time to be wasted away on this baby tortoises part. He compares the baby tortoise to a human baby, “Rather like a baby working its limbs,” then differentiates the two by stating “except that you(baby tortoise) make slow, ageless progress/and a baby makes none” – right from the point of being born, the speaker exemplifies the baby tortoise’s role in this world.

Hi Ktd222, great, I have been waiting for you to post something, but I have been so busy with the book of the month postings that your delay was fine. Actually, your timing is perfect since we are almost done reading the book, WIL.

Yes, Lawrence was amazingly perceptive and especially when it came to nature and the world's natural order of being and survival. I too think this line “all animate creation.” to describe the tortoise's shell says much and is quite important. Also I think it has much deeper meanings. The shell is both a home/shelter and a burden for such a tiny creature. It may be true that there is 'no time to waste on the baby tortoise's part' but it seems to me that the baby tortoise must persist progressing slowly, but steadily with much fortitude, in order to challenge this emense unknown daunting world/universe, and to simply survive and live. You quoted “except that you(baby tortoise) make slow, ageless progress/and a baby makes none” , then you stated your observation that "right from the point of being born, the speaker exemplifies the baby tortoise’s role in this world." I would basically agree with that, but I am not entirely sure what Lawrence's means when he says "a baby makes none." Is he pointing out that a baby is quite helpless but a baby tortoise is self-sufficient? I would think this is the idea. A baby is dependent on it's parents, while the tortoise must survive alone. 'Alone' is a huge part of the poem and 'self-sufficency' and 'challenge' and 'survival'. Of course, I can also see other meanings to the poem that directly relate to Lawrence and his ways of thinking/ideas/observations. I will address these later on.

Several things stand out to me in this poem right away. Key words can be easily spotted. First the word 'alone' is used quite often. Immediately after being hatched the turtle is totally independent and on it's own. That is the natural way of nature. I always thought how strange that poor baby turtles/ tortoises never know their parents and must struggle in the first few days to survive, totally on their own. Note these lines:

The very first line:

You know what it is to be born alone,

Then later on the line:

Alone, small insect,

And I especially like these lines:

Alone, with no sense of being alone,
And hence six times more solitary;

And you are slowly moving, pioneer, you alone.

To take your first solitary bite
And move on your slow, solitary hunt.

Here the word 'alone' is mentioned 5 times and 'solitary' twice,; there may be more in the poem. This is common and characteristic of Lawrence's poetry and his prose to use repetition of key words to emphasis his idea and deeper meaning. By using these words he sets the mood of the poem from the very first line - alone, solitary and also keeps the idea in our minds throughout the poem.
Other lines that seem to emphasis this state of aloneness and solitude are lines and key words that contrast the emensity of the world to the tiny size of this newborn creature, thus 'contrast' is also a huge element reminescent of Lawrence's work such as dark/light tiny/huge, etc. For instance:

A tiny, fragile, half-animate bean.

To open your tiny beak-mouth,

Tiny bright-eye,

And the fine brilliance of your so tiny eye,

Nay, tiny shell-bird.

I count 5 lines with 'tiny' and one also has the word 'small'. There might be more lines with 'tiny' in them.

Also, the use of the key word 'small' throughout the poem is evident. Note, when you go back over the lines you can pick out many with the words 'small' in them. Here is just one:

Wither away, small bird?

Here Lawrence's contrasts of tiny and huge are evident:

Nay, tiny shell-bird.
What a huge vast inanimate it is, that you must row
against,
What an incalculable inertia.

The vast inanimate,
And the fine brilliance of your so tiny eye,

Over the garden earth,
Small bird,
Over the edge of all things.

All of these combinations contrast the small with the infinite/huge/emense world the baby tortoise must 'challenge' now to survive. The word 'challenge', or some form of the word, is also used often in the poem.

Ktd222, hope this gives you some new ideas. You know - this is a truly wonderful poem. After reading it several times now I just love it. It says so much, don't you think?

Virgil

06-19-2007, 06:19 PM

I haven't joined this discussion yet. Bear with me, I will.:)

Janine

06-19-2007, 06:23 PM

I haven't joined this discussion yet. Bear with me, I will.:)

Virgil, have you noticed how I learned from you - key words and contrast? ;) :lol:

The discussion is only just getting started so come back soon. It should be a good one. I love the poem and the ones to come are great, also.

Did you forget about the short story thread? I think you were right and it will have to be for next month. I don't have time until the WIL book is overwith and no one else ventured to post. It is a 'short' short story this time also - not so difficult.

Virgil

06-19-2007, 06:25 PM

Virgil, have you noticed how I learned from you - key words and contrast? ;) :lol:

The discussion is only just getting started so come back soon. It should be a good one. I love the poem and the ones to come are great, also.

Did you forget about the short story thread? I think you were right and it will have to be for next month. I don't have time until the WIL book is overwith and no one else ventured to post. It is a 'short' short story this time also - not so difficult.

I'm afraid I didn't even read the posts here yet. Sorry. :blush:

Absolutely no time for the L short story thread. :p

Janine

06-19-2007, 08:07 PM

I'm afraid I didn't even read the posts here yet. Sorry. :blush:

Absolutely no time for the L short story thread. :p

Virgil, When you get a chance, maybe you can read the posts and add something insightful to our discussion. Always good to have your take on the poem and any symbolism, etc.

I know - no time till next month for the L short story. I don't have time either. Just did not want you to forget it existed.;)

Virgil

06-19-2007, 09:06 PM

I agree that Janine makes a lot of sense with focusing on the words, "alone" and "tiny". It is struggling against an immnese universe. There is a definite perspective as KTD points out, but I'm not sure what to make of that yet. There are a lot of endearing terms in there, and almost a sense of love and compassion toward it. In fact Lawrence makes it more endaring than a baby. But I'm not sure what he's suggesting.

Without getting into the ideas yet, the poetry is quite nice. It seems to me that Lawrence captures the essence of the baby tortoise. I think that was his first priority with his animal poems, and he had a lot of animal poems. Reminds me of Gudrun's sketches in Women In Love. I'm not sure how he does it poetically, but the lines just read slow and paced, like a baby tortoise making its slow struggle to the sea. He must do it with the vowels and the sentence and phrase lengths.

Enough for now. I'm going to have let this sink in a little more.

ktd222

06-20-2007, 11:49 AM

Yes, Lawrence was amazingly perceptive and especially when it came to nature and the world's natural order of being and survival. I too think this line “all animate creation.” to describe the tortoise's shell says much and is quite important. Also I think it has much deeper meanings. The shell is both a home/shelter and a burden for such a tiny creature. It may be true that there is 'no time to waste on the baby tortoise's part' but it seems to me that the baby tortoise must persist progressing slowly, but steadily with much fortitude, in order to challenge this emense unknown daunting world/universe, and to simply survive and live.
He does seem to set up the inanimate world as a challenge for the baby tortoise, doesn’t he? And he gives insightful reasons for why the baby tortoise is up to the challenge: because of it’s “indomitable will and pride…pitching itself against the inertia/which had seemed invincible.” So you’re right. Maybe it’s maintaining pride through the means of “persistence and fortitude” to overcome the inanimate world. I hate to use a cliché here…but as the saying goes, “where there’s a will there’s a way.”

I read this poem from the POV of the observer; and what I was saying was that from the onset this baby tortoise seemed of one mind, focused on achieving the ultimate goal of instilling animate creation into an inanimate world. The breadth of this statement encompasses the baby tortoise’s will.

Although the shell is stressed less in this poem, I think it adds to the vivid imagery of actual weight the baby tortoise must bear. I tend to think he was going more for the metaphor here, though.

You quoted “except that you(baby tortoise) make slow, ageless progress/and a baby makes none” , then you stated your observation that "right from the point of being born, the speaker exemplifies the baby tortoise’s role in this world." I would basically agree with that, but I am not entirely sure what Lawrence's means when he says "a baby makes none." Is he pointing out that a baby is quite helpless but a baby tortoise is self-sufficient? I would think this is the idea. A baby is dependent on it's parents, while the tortoise must survive alone. 'Alone' is a huge part of the poem and 'self-sufficency' and 'challenge' and 'survival'. Of course, I can also see other meanings to the poem that directly relate to Lawrence and his ways of thinking/ideas/observations. I will address these later on.

Yes. I think he was setting up a comparison we can relate with…specifically how helpless a baby is when flailing its legs, versus the same baby, albeit in the form of a tortoise, is actually moving in a direction when “working its limbs.”

Several things stand out to me in this poem right away. Key words can be easily spotted. First the word 'alone' is used quite often. Immediately after being hatched the turtle is totally independent and on it's own. That is the natural way of nature. I always thought how strange that poor baby turtles/ tortoises never know their parents and must struggle in the first few days to survive, totally on their own.

I do this in my poetry as well. But for me it’s usually because I lack a wide ranging vocabulary. :p I liked that you picked out the word “alone.” This word is important to the poem’s meaning. Not because of what we usually think when thinking about “alone”: that there is some knowledge “others” is being distanced from the I…because the baby totoise does not even notice it is alone. There’s a quote you mentioned earlier: “Alone, with no sense of being alone,/and hence six times more solitary.” This quote is so telling, especially when what follows is “fulfilled of the slow passion of pitching through im/memorable ages,” because what seems to replace “others,” the awareness of being alone, is this passion to pitch itself through…

The baby tortoise seems to not be aware of its surroundings. To not be distracted by your surroundings must be a difficult thing do, but to be unaware of your surroundings seems almost impossible. I think this is what makes the tortoise’s passion recognizable to the speaker, and may be the connection the speaker sees in this baby tortoise and humans.

Ktd222, hope this gives you some new ideas. You know - this is a truly wonderful poem. After reading it several times now I just love it. It says so much, don't you think?
Too many ideas. :idea: The poem quite nice, though. I’ll let someone else have a say.

ktd222

06-20-2007, 12:23 PM

I haven't joined this discussion yet. Bear with me, I will.:)

Great!! I hope others join as well. It is still fairly early in the discussion

Janine

06-20-2007, 06:17 PM

I agree, the more participants the better.

Ktd222, I will be back soon to answer your post and add some comments of my own later.

I agree that Janine makes a lot of sense with focusing on the words, "alone" and "tiny". It is struggling against an immnese universe. There is a definite perspective as KTD points out, but I'm not sure what to make of that yet. There are a lot of endearing terms in there, and almost a sense of love and compassion toward it. In fact Lawrence makes it more endaring than a baby. But I'm not sure what he's suggesting.

Virgil, Thanks, I picked up these methods from you...key words and all. You are a good teacher and perceptive to pick out those key words. It makes sense now to look for them right away. In this poem, the use of repetition is so prominent. I think I know what the perspective is and closely relates personally to Lawrence's own struggles against the world. I think in viewing the positive attitude that the baby tortoise must assume to progress with his life (living) he must go up against the huge immense world/universe in order to survive. To dive in deeper, how like Lawrence himself, carrying his 'home' on his back, up against the odds and surviving. I can see how he would relate to the tenacious little creature and feel empathy for it's struggle against the emensity of the world.
For ktd, Lawrence was a wanderer and really established no physical home, asside from a ranch his wife owned in New Mexico. Also, the burden of the shell could be related, I believe, to all the burdens Lawrence had to come up against: carrying his talent/genius and even fight against his illness with him where-ever he went. In this way I feel the poem has a great significance for Lawrence or at least he can relate to the struggle that the baby tortoise must encounter on it's slow and persistent journey of life. All Lawrence's burdens posed great challenges in his life, yet he never alowed himself to feel sorry for himself, he never let these things stop him. If you notice he uses the word 'challenge' quite often in the poem.

Also, there are single lines that seem to stand out purposely from the main body of the poem. One that particularly strikes me is

"No one ever heard you complain."

Also the last two lines stand out magnificently

"All life carried on your shoulder,
Invincible fore-runner"

These lines stand out to me, because Lawrence felt he was a 'fore-runner' himself in the new order of the world he envisioned. He was very much an idealist and wanted the old ways to fall behind and new ones to emerge. This also could signify the meaning of the shell upon the tortoise's back. I feel this poem is very personal to Lawrence and that is why the poem feels so definite in it's perception.

Without getting into the ideas yet, the poetry is quite nice. It seems to me that Lawrence captures the essence of the baby tortoise. I think that was his first priority with his animal poems, and he had a lot of animal poems. Reminds me of Gudrun's sketches in Women In Love. I'm not sure how he does it poetically, but the lines just read slow and paced, like a baby tortoise making its slow struggle to the sea. He must do it with the vowels and the sentence and phrase lengths.

Yes, this does very much recall me to those sketches. I think you are absolutely right - the poem is slow and paced - wonderful, is it not? I don't know poem structure as you do, but it seems as though 'the vowels and the sentence and phrase lengths' set up that pace, as you suggest. It is like pauses in the poem's body and paces the lines with the slow/steady moving of the tortoise. Brilliant.

Enough for now. I'm going to have let this sink in a little more.

It takes time to do that. I have read it now about 5 or so times at least. It gets better and more meaningful the more I read it. A very interesting poem; I had not realised just how much, till I started really 'seeing' it.

He does seem to set up the inanimate world as a challenge for the baby tortoise, doesn’t he? And he gives insightful reasons for why the baby tortoise is up to the challenge: because of it’s “indomitable will and pride…pitching itself against the inertia/which had seemed invincible.” So you’re right. Maybe it’s maintaining pride through the means of “persistence and fortitude” to overcome the inanimate world. I hate to use a cliché here…but as the saying goes, “where there’s a will there’s a way.”

Hi ktd, Yes, and as I said he uses that term often and also Greek Mythological references who also encountered great obstacles and challenges. Interesting, isn't it? I love that "indomitable will and pride" because I directly see that is how Lawrence lived his own life. I am sure he has great admiration for this creature and feels an affinity to it and it's place in the world as a 'challenger'. The cliche fits perfectly. Yes, where there is a will there's a way". It seems the will is the driving force here and the way is the only way to survive and truly live.

I read this poem from the POV of the observer; and what I was saying was that from the onset this baby tortoise seemed of one mind, focused on achieving the ultimate goal of instilling animate creation into an inanimate world. The breadth of this statement encompasses the baby tortoise’s will.

I also read this from the POV of the observer - Lawrence himself. I quite agree with the rest of your statement.

Although the shell is stressed less in this poem, I think it adds to the vivid imagery of actual weight the baby tortoise must bear. I tend to think he was going more for the metaphor here, though.

Definitely the metaphor. This ties in with the themes I earlier stated relating directly to Lawrence. The shell is represents many things, I believe - home, shelter, responsibility, etc.

Yes. I think he was setting up a comparison we can relate with…specifically how helpless a baby is when flailing its legs, versus the same baby, albeit in the form of a tortoise, is actually moving in a direction when “working its limbs.”

I understand this better now. Yes, the legs of the baby just flailing in air, as a contrast to the driving will of the little legs of the tortoise. Yes, interesting that you said "the same baby, albeit". Lawrence was very much against inertia of man and he moved forward himself always with a great indominable will. Interesting.

I do this in my poetry as well. But for me it’s usually because I lack a wide ranging vocabulary. :p I liked that you picked out the word “alone.” This word is important to the poem’s meaning. Not because of what we usually think when thinking about “alone”: that there is some knowledge “others” is being distanced from the I…because the baby totoise does not even notice it is alone. There’s a quote you mentioned earlier: “Alone, with no sense of being alone,/and hence six times more solitary.” This quote is so telling, especially when what follows is “fulfilled of the slow passion of pitching through im/memorable ages,” because what seems to replace “others,” the awareness of being alone, is this passion to pitch itself through…

At first reading of this part of your post, I did not fully understand, but now I do. That is good. Lawrence also was quite alone in that his ideas were not accepted at that time. His own life was an emense struggle of will and a challenge always.

The baby tortoise seems to not be aware of its surroundings. To not be distracted by your surroundings must be a difficult thing do, but to be unaware of your surroundings seems almost impossible. I think this is what makes the tortoise’s passion recognizable to the speaker, and may be the connection the speaker sees in this baby tortoise and humans.

Interesting, since I did not pick this up. I felt he had a vague idea of his surroundings but it is true that he is not distracted by them. He seems to have a pair of blinders on in order to fully concentrate on his goal of moving onward. Lawrence is definitely making the conncection to humans in this poem. The more I read it the more evident it becomes. That is why it is so easy to relate to the struggle and the poem. It is a fine example to humans - the testament of the tortoise's tenacity and fortitude.

Too many ideas. :idea: The poem quite nice, though. I’ll let someone else have a say.[/Quote]

ktd222

06-21-2007, 05:24 PM

Lawrence was a wanderer and really established no physical home, asside from a ranch his wife owned in New Mexico. Also, the burden of the shell could be related, I believe, to all the burdens Lawrence had to come up against: carrying his talent/genius and even fight against his illness with him where-ever he went. In this way I feel the poem has a great significance for Lawrence or at least he can relate to the struggle that the baby tortoise must encounter on it's slow and persistent journey of life. All Lawrence's burdens posed great challenges in his life, yet he never alowed himself to feel sorry for himself, he never let these things stop him. If you notice he uses the word 'challenge' quite often in the poem.
I never knew Lawrence had so many obstacles in his life. It does correlate well with the idea moving through the tortoise poem. It’s always touching to glimpse into someone else’s life, and feel their emotions through their works.

As for the word “challenger,” besides from the obvious, why do you suppose Lawrence connects tortoise, to challenger, to little Ulysses…? Is this possibly the first step in relating the tortoise to human beings? I’m not sure. I never really worked out this correlation.

Also, there are single lines that seem to stand out purposely from the main body of the poem. One that particularly strikes me is

"No one ever heard you complain."

Also the last two lines stand out magnificently

"All life carried on your shoulder,
Invincible fore-runner"

These lines stand out to me, because Lawrence felt he was a 'fore-runner' himself in the new order of the world he envisioned. He was very much an idealist and wanted the old ways to fall behind and new ones to emerge. This also could signify the meaning of the shell upon the tortoise's back. I feel this poem is very personal to Lawrence and that is why the poem feels so definite in it's perception.
You know what’s also interesting about the last couple of lines…that the baby tortoise is now described as “invincible.” Remember that somewhere in the middle of the poem it was the world which seemed invincible? So by poem’s end I get a sense this baby tortoise, which started out its journey half-alive, fragile, almost incapable of movement, has come full circle to become incapable of being subdued itself. It is unconquerable.

Definitely the metaphor. This ties in with the themes I earlier stated relating directly to Lawrence. The shell is represents many things, I believe - home, shelter, responsibility, etc.
I wonder if the baby tortoise would look like a baby bird if it did not contain a shell?

Interesting, since I did not pick this up. I felt he had a vague idea of his surroundings but it is true that he is not distracted by them. He seems to have a pair of blinders on in order to fully concentrate on his goal of moving onward. Lawrence is definitely making the conncection to humans in this poem. The more I read it the more evident it becomes. That is why it is so easy to relate to the struggle and the poem. It is a fine example to humans - the testament of the tortoise's tenacity and fortitude.

Here’s another example, kind of a funny one at that, relating the tortoise’s focus:
“Do you wonder at the world…?” – This question, suggested by the speaker, simply asked if the baby tortoise thought or was curious about the world.

“Are you able to wonder?” – This second question turns on the first question and asks if the baby tortoise is able to wonder at all.

There seems to be a natural tendency or assumption that living things have thoughts about their surroundings. But in this case, it seems the speaker is unable to recognize the look of wonder on this baby tortoise and therefore ask if it is able to wonder at all.

Janine

06-22-2007, 12:42 AM

Ktd, I read your post - you bring up some very good points and some good questions as well. I will answer them tomorrow.
Did you happen to see the add at the top of our page - it is for live tortoises. I really had to laugh. At first I could not believe my eyes. Funny, don't you think?

Virgil

06-22-2007, 09:51 AM

Janine

06-22-2007, 03:07 PM

I noticed that ad too. :lol:

Virgil, Really funny, isn't it? Wonder if the mods did that on purpose?

Can you check in and read the last couple posts on "Sons and Lovers" thread? There are a few questions I had a hard time answering for Pensive - mostly pertaining to Lawrence's religious beliefs. I think you can explain them better than I can.

Janine

06-22-2007, 11:50 PM

ktd, ran out of time today and tonight. Really worn out and tired now. I will get back to you tomorrow. J

Meanwhile you might want to check out this fascinating site on Lawrence at Nottingham University.

http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/mss/online/online-exhibitions/exhib_dhl/index.phtml

On left, If you go to the last one - 'Portal' it will take you to another cite with even more great photos. Enjoy exploring. It is a great site and will open your eyes to L and his life.

ktd222

06-23-2007, 01:30 AM

Ktd, Did you happen to see the add at the top of our page - it is for live tortoises. I really had to laugh. At first I could not believe my eyes. Funny, don't you think?

Not at first because the Ad pages change...but I did today. How funny:lol: :lol: I'm glad our discussion got so much attention that the advertisers asked specifically to be placed in our discussion:D

ktd, ran out of time today and tonight. Really worn out and tired now. I will get back to you tomorrow. J

Meanwhile you might want to check out this fascinating site on Lawrence at Nottingham University.

http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/mss/online/online-exhibitions/exhib_dhl/index.phtml

On left, If you go to the last one - 'Portal' it will take you to another cite with even more great photos. Enjoy exploring. It is a great site and will open your eyes to L and his life.

I probably won't be able to post anything this weekend so take your time. I'll try and check out the site you mentioned, thanks.

Janine

06-23-2007, 02:51 PM

Not at first because the Ad pages change...but I did today. How funny:lol: :lol: I'm glad our discussion got so much attention that the advertisers asked specifically to be placed in our discussion:D

I probably won't be able to post anything this weekend so take your time. I'll try and check out the site you mentioned, thanks.

ktd, thanks for being so patient. I have to admit that I feel totally overwhelmed with the other two active threads. I did not realise the WIL discussion would take all my energy and concentration. I also am in the "Sons and Lovers" discussion with Pensive and Virgil. Whew - it has been a busy month so far. Both of these discussions get pretty intense at times. I finished the WIL book last night, but now I am reading commentary. I think one needs more than one month to discuss this book, maybe any book.
At any rate, I still very much want to get back to your post, #12, I think it is. Not sure now - but I recall you bringing up good points about the narrator 'wondering' if the creature can 'wonder' at all. Interesting part of the poem. I will think about that and get back to answer all of that post after the weekend.
Enjoy your weekend! J:)

Janine

06-26-2007, 04:07 PM

I never knew Lawrence had so many obstacles in his life. It does correlate well with the idea moving through the tortoise poem. It’s always touching to glimpse into someone else’s life, and feel their emotions through their works.

Hi ktd, I am sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I am feeling like a juggler juggling all these L threads. Now my good friend, Downing, wants to read the short story and post in that thread; that never did get off the ground this month; it was delayed till next month, but now we are close enough. So then we will have 4 active Lawrence threads. I might help you to review some thing written in the "Sons and Lover's" thread about Lawrence and his background. I don't know if you read the short biography on his site, but that, or the one in Wikipedia would be good for you to read to give you a sense of all the obstacles L was up against in his real life. This poem for me takes on so much more meaning, now that I am aware of all these facts of his background and life. And ktd, it is so "touching to glimpse into someone else's life", especially true for Lawrence, as you so aptly put that. I have bought the "Selected Letters" and one day I read a few from his early days; I actually got goosebumps reading it. It felt so personal and so intimate - such a rare glimpse into his astute and sensitive mind.

As for the word “challenger,” besides from the obvious, why do you suppose Lawrence connects tortoise, to challenger, to little Ulysses…? Is this possibly the first step in relating the tortoise to human beings? I’m not sure. I never really worked out this correlation.

Again this goes back to his biography. Lawrence challenged the literary world and was up against censorship and even banning of his books. His whole life for publication was a struggle and a challenge. So was his personal life. Lawrence would easily relate to the stuggle and challenge of the little tortoise. As to 'little Ulysses', L often used references to Greek mythology and to other myths and legends, also the bible and other mystical references. We have found that very evident in our reading of "Women in Love". Throughout the entire novel, the use of symbolism and Greek mythology is prominent and meaningful to the text. I don't know that much about Greek mythology, nor recall what I did know, but I would assume that Ulysses is challenged and must go up against the world; am I right? I think, definitely, this poem throughout, is being linked to humans. Perhaps using 'Ulysses' and 'challenger' is the first step in conveying that idea.

You know what’s also interesting about the last couple of lines…that the baby tortoise is now described as “invincible.” Remember that somewhere in the middle of the poem it was the world which seemed invincible? So by poem’s end I get a sense this baby tortoise, which started out its journey half-alive, fragile, almost incapable of movement, has come full circle to become incapable of being subdued itself. It is unconquerable.

It was almost as if Lawrence himself was "invincible". For one thing, he defied death and beat it so many times it was amazing, truly miraculous. He probably had TB most of his life; he called it his 'broncials' and was in denial of the disease. He never gave up to his dying day, nor felt sorry for himself. He wanted so badly to live and he had the greatest zest for life. Does this tell you something about the poem and how he would greatly admire this little creature for persisting in this big emorous dangerous world, in order to survive?

Good observation, that first the world is mentioned at 'invincible', and then by the end of the poem, it is the baby tortoise who is steadily progressing and is the one who is indeed 'invincible'. I fully agree with your last two statements. Yes, nothing in this poem is inert, althought slow and steady, there is still a 'forward moving' and developing; and now the tortoise gains it's footing and it's strength by persisting on - 'inconquerable'.

I wonder if the baby tortoise would look like a baby bird if it did not contain a shell?

I think it might be so. I know too that Lawrence seemed to mention birds quite often and he loved the phoenix which burns down to nothing to be reborn. This may have some deeper significance to L and also to his ideas of returning to the primal aspects of life. Not sure exactly. But naked baby birds do sort of resemble turtles without shells, don't they?

Here’s another example, kind of a funny one at that, relating the tortoise’s focus:
“Do you wonder at the world…?” – This question, suggested by the speaker, simply asked if the baby tortoise thought or was curious about the world

“Are you able to wonder?” – This second question turns on the first question and asks if the baby tortoise is able to wonder at all.

Yes, I like that because I have thought the same thing when watching a box turtle that used to live in my garden. Also, I live near much wildlife - ducks, rabbits, mustrats, chipmunks, and geese and again, I have often pondered this question or just how they think and wonder, if they do. Interesting that "the second question turns on the first question....." this seems to me to set up a type of rhythm and also duality in the questioning, or taking it to a deeping level.

There seems to be a natural tendency or assumption that living things have thoughts about their surroundings. But in this case, it seems the speaker is unable to recognize the look of wonder on this baby tortoise and therefore ask if it is able to wonder at all.

ktd, I am not quite sure of this. Is he unable to see any wonder in the baby tortoise? Can you explain better what you are thinking here and basing that on. It seems odd to me that L would not recognise wonder on the tortoise's face. I have to think about this one more.

ktd222

06-27-2007, 04:33 AM

Hi ktd, I am sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I am feeling like a juggler juggling all these L threads. Now my good friend, Downing, wants to read the short story and post in that thread; that never did get off the ground this month; it was delayed till next month, but now we are close enough. So then we will have 4 active Lawrence threads. I might help you to review some thing written in the "Sons and Lover's" thread about Lawrence and his background. I don't know if you read the short biography on his site, but that, or the one in Wikipedia would be good for you to read to give you a sense of all the obstacles L was up against in his real life. This poem for me takes on so much more meaning, now that I am aware of all these facts of his background and life. And ktd, it is so "touching to glimpse into someone else's life", especially true for Lawrence, as you so aptly put that. I have bought the "Selected Letters" and one day I read a few from his early days; I actually got goosebumps reading it. It felt so personal and so intimate - such a rare glimpse into his astute and sensitive mind.
Hey, if anything, these threads are allowing you to hone you’re expertise on Lawrence. As for biographies…I had not read Lawrence’s; I will read it though. I’m afraid if I investigate Lawrence’s life any further, I may never move off him and to other poets and poems.

Again this goes back to his biography. Lawrence challenged the literary world and was up against censorship and even banning of his books. His whole life for publication was a struggle and a challenge. So was his personal life. Lawrence would easily relate to the stuggle and challenge of the little tortoise. As to 'little Ulysses', L often used references to Greek mythology and to other myths and legends, also the bible and other mystical references. We have found that very evident in our reading of "Women in Love". Throughout the entire novel, the use of symbolism and Greek mythology is prominent and meaningful to the text. I don't know that much about Greek mythology, nor recall what I did know, but I would assume that Ulysses is challenged and must go up against the world; am I right? I think, definitely, this poem throughout, is being linked to humans. Perhaps using 'Ulysses' and 'challenger' is the first step in conveying that idea.
I don’t know. This would make sense to me. Someone who’s knowledgeable about Greek Mythology, is Janine right? Virgil? Anyone? Now I guess the next question is what’s the connection between Little Ulysses and the gentlemen in the long skirted coat? Sorry I can’t provide an explanation because it just seems really odd.

It was almost as if Lawrence himself was "invincible". For one thing, he defied death and beat it so many times it was amazing, truly miraculous. He probably had TB most of his life; he called it his 'broncials' and was in denial of the disease. He never gave up to his dying day, nor felt sorry for himself. He wanted so badly to live and he had the greatest zest for life. Does this tell you something about the poem and how he would greatly admire this little creature for persisting in this big emorous dangerous world, in order to survive?
Sure. From what you’ve provided of Lawrence’s background, one could easily forget that this poem is about a tortoise at all.

I think it might be so. I know too that Lawrence seemed to mention birds quite often and he loved the phoenix which burns down to nothing to be reborn. This may have some deeper significance to L and also to his ideas of returning to the primal aspects of life. Not sure exactly. But naked baby birds do sort of resemble turtles without shells, don't they?
They really do look similar. That’s interesting, the part about the phoenix “which burns down to nothing to be reborn.” Is he possibly also referencing the need of humans to be reborn? Have we somewhere along the course of our race lost sight of our own purpose in this world? This reminds me of Mountain Lion, which is another poem of his, where he talks more directly about the relationship of humans and lions to each other and the world.

Yes, I like that because I have thought the same thing when watching a box turtle that used to live in my garden. Also, I live near much wildlife - ducks, rabbits, mustrats, chipmunks, and geese and again, I have often pondered this question or just how they think and wonder, if they do. Interesting that "the second question turns on the first question....." this seems to me to set up a type of rhythm and also duality in the questioning, or taking it to a deeping level.
ktd, I am not quite sure of this. Is he unable to see any wonder in the baby tortoise? Can you explain better what you are thinking here and basing that on. It seems odd to me that L would not recognise wonder on the tortoise's face. I have to think about this one more.
No, you’re right. Lawrence is able to recognize the look of wonder. One has to be acquainted with a look of anger, happiness, wonder, etc, in order to recognize those looks in others. When the tortoise is “slowly turning his head in its wimple” – that is what wondering looks like to Lawrence. Yet he is not sure the tortoise is wondering, otherwise he would not be putting this sentence in question form. So what follows is a question asking whether the tortoise is able to wonder at all.

Janine

06-28-2007, 05:11 PM

Hey, if anything, these threads are allowing you to hone you’re expertise on Lawrence. As for biographies…I had not read Lawrence’s; I will read it though. I’m afraid if I investigate Lawrence’s life any further, I may never move off him and to other poets and poems.

Hi ktd, Well, thanks - but in doing so I really I don't want to come across as a 'know-it-all'. I might turn some people off if I did that. I have just read so much, it naturally comes out and I love sharing it with others. I am sometimes overly enthusiastic about Lawrence. Yes, if you read more you just might be stuck in the Lawrence mode, too; I know I was for a time on discovering him, but then I was on to other authors - I go through stages. I really like Hardy and went through most of his work, and now I am back to Lawrence again. A good biography of Lawrence is quite fascinating and directly relates to his work, quite invaluable to ones greater understanding.

I don’t know. This would make sense to me. Someone who’s knowledgeable about Greek Mythology, is Janine right? Virgil? Anyone? Now I guess the next question is what’s the connection between Little Ulysses and the gentlemen in the long skirted coat? Sorry I can’t provide an explanation because it just seems really odd.

Maybe Virgil will have ideas on this and the 'long skirted coat'. That, I have no idea about. It does seem odd, but it must mean something significant if he wrote it into the poem. Virgil was away on business but I have seen him on here briefly today. He is trying to concentrate on finishing WIL - said in his post he had only 25 pages to go. He will get around to this post eventually; I'll mention it to him.

Sure. From what you’ve provided of Lawrence’s background, one could easily forget that this poem is about a tortoise at all.

:lol: Funny, I have lost my perspective, maybe. I can only see it in terms of L and his life struggle. I can empathise with the way the baby tortoise must struggle along against all odds. I think it applies to all mankind, who struggle with great obstacles in their life. It is really quite a universal theme.

They really do look similar. That’s interesting, the part about the phoenix “which burns down to nothing to be reborn.” Is he possibly also referencing the need of humans to be reborn? Have we somewhere along the course of our race lost sight of our own purpose in this world? This reminds me of Mountain Lion, which is another poem of his, where he talks more directly about the relationship of humans and lions to each other and the world.

Well, that was the idea behind the phoenix for Lawrence. It gets a bit complicated thought. His remains were buried with a phoenix in stone as the marker. Later his body was exhumed and he was taken to his ranch in New Mexico and buried in a small shrine with the phoenix above. If you go to Wikipedia you can view the grave and you can learn more about the phoenix concept and how he applied it to himself. Yes, L did feel we had as humanity lost sight of our purpose and our way in the world. L is very symbolic in his books like "Women in Love" and "The Rainbow" and later ones. He airs out all these themes/philosophies/ideas in those books. The "Mountain Lion" poem sounds interesting. I have never read that one; will have to look it up in my book tonight. Hummm....

No, you’re right. Lawrence is able to recognize the look of wonder. One has to be acquainted with a look of anger, happiness, wonder, etc, in order to recognize those looks in others. When the tortoise is “slowly turning his head in its wimple” – that is what wondering looks like to Lawrence. Yet he is not sure the tortoise is wondering, otherwise he would not be putting this sentence in question form. So what follows is a question asking whether the tortoise is able to wonder at all.

Yes, it is still a very interesting thing to ask the question. Maybe L is questioning himself of his own belief as to if, indeed, the tortoise can reason or wonder.

ktd222

06-30-2007, 11:23 AM

Hi ktd, Well, thanks - but in doing so I really I don't want to come across as a 'know-it-all'. I might turn some people off if I did that. I have just read so much, it naturally comes out and I love sharing it with others. I am sometimes overly enthusiastic about Lawrence. Yes, if you read more you just might be stuck in the Lawrence mode, too; I know I was for a time on discovering him, but then I was on to other authors - I go through stages. I really like Hardy and went through most of his work, and now I am back to Lawrence again. A good biography of Lawrence is quite fascinating and directly relates to his work, quite invaluable to ones greater
understanding.
I don’t know how that would have anything to do with you. I enjoy reading your posts about Lawrence.

Maybe Virgil will have ideas on this and the 'long skirted coat'. That, I have no idea about. It does seem odd, but it must mean something significant if he wrote it into the poem. Virgil was away on business but I have seen him on here briefly today. He is trying to concentrate on finishing WIL - said in his post he had only 25 pages to go. He will get around to this post eventually; I'll mention it to him.
Ok, til then. All I know is that the tuxedo he mentioned could refer to the tortoise’s shell, and the “tail tucked a little on one side” could be the “long skirted” part of the coat on this gentleman.

The "Mountain Lion" poem sounds interesting. I have never read that one; will have to look it up in my book tonight. Hummm....
See how I’m introducing you to this whole other aspect of Lawrence’s work. Now you’ll be a well rounded Lawrence expert.

Yes, it is still a very interesting thing to ask the question. Maybe L is questioning himself of his own belief as to if, indeed, the tortoise can reason or wonder.
I would love to hear other people’s take(s) on this. Actually I would love to hear from someone other than you once in a while, Janine.

Janine

06-30-2007, 02:19 PM

I don’t know how that would have anything to do with you. I enjoy reading your posts about Lawrence.

ktd....ahhh....thank you so much for saying this. Unfortunately, recently I think a few people have taken offense. I felt badly about that. I think they just misunderstood me, but I suppose it can happen on here, when you can't see the person or percieve how they really are. I would not intentionally hurt any ones feelings. Sometimes you can attempt to point out something and the other person will take it as being condenscending; I would never mean it that way. Things get out of proportion when you only surmise.

Ok, til then. All I know is that the tuxedo he mentioned could refer to the tortoise’s shell, and the “tail tucked a little on one side” could be the “long skirted” part of the coat on this gentleman.

I think that is good. I do think this is what he probably is referring to. Most likely, he simply observed the creature's movement and it reminded him of a man wearing a tuxedo. It does connect us to the world of man/humans, as well and probably did so to Lawrence in his own mind at that moment. I think description like this came naturally to Lawrence, don't you?

See how I’m introducing you to this whole other aspect of Lawrence’s work. Now you’ll be a well rounded Lawrence expert.

:lol: Yes, thanks so much!....I am pretty rounded already though, and not just in the Lawrence sense...haha....with age pounds creep up.....:( But now I have never had anyone to ponder over these poems with. I find that is rounding out my L experience for certain.
I must tell you, the funny thing is I did invest in a huge book of his "Collected Poems" - complete. I had this book from my library once, but they had to borrow it from another library in my county, so I did not have time to read every single poem, of course. Beside the fact that I like to read poetry slowly and really absorb it. Needless to say I have hardly had the time to begin reading the collection, but it is definitely on my must read list....which is extensive...and grows more so everyday.

I would love to hear other people’s take(s) on this. Actually I would love to hear from someone other than you once in a while, Janine.

Well, you said it - so would I!!! "Hello, where is everybody hiding?" I have been trying so hard to recruit people for this thread and the short story one, as well. It seems no one finds this one, but I have directed people here to read some of the posts various times.
Concerning Virgil, I think he is totally overwhelmed by now. He only just finished up WIL, went on a short business trip, told me he read the short story on the plane, had some family matters to attend to, and is starting "Don Quixote", not to mention "To the Lighthouse". I try to remind him via PM that the short story thread and this one awaits his brilliance, but I think there is only so many hours in the day. I will email him later tonight and remind him again. It is his aniversary and he is going out to dinner tonight.

Virgil

07-04-2007, 11:30 AM

I think I finally found time to read the poem carefully and get back to the thread. There was a passage in Women In Love where Birkin, who is essentially a standin for Lawrence himself in the novel has retreated to his room from a social gathering and Hermione come in to see to him and finds him sketching a goose. Here's that passage:

`What were you doing?' she reiterated, in her mild, indifferent tone. He did not answer, and she made her way, almost unconsciously into his room. He had taken a Chinese drawing of geese from the boudoir, and was copying it, with much skill and vividness.

`You are copying the drawing,' she said, standing near the table, and looking down at his work. `Yes. How beautifully you do it! You like it very much, don't you?'

`It's a marvellous drawing,' he said.

`Is it? I'm so glad you like it, because I've always been fond of it. The Chinese Ambassador gave it me.'

`I know,' he said.

`But why do you copy it?' she asked, casual and sing-song. `Why not do something original?'

`I want to know it,' he replied. `One gets more of China, copying this picture, than reading all the books.'

`And what do you get?'

She was at once roused, she laid as it were violent hands on him, to extract his secrets from him. She must know. It was a dreadful tyranny, an obsession in her, to know all he knew. For some time he was silent, hating to answer her. Then, compelled, he began:

`I know what centres they live from -- what they perceive and feel -- the hot, stinging centrality of a goose in the flux of cold water and mud -- the curious bitter stinging heat of a goose's blood, entering their own blood like an inoculation of corruptive fire -- fire of the cold-burning mud -- the lotus mystery.'
I think that passage is relevant in understanding what Lawrece is after in these animal poems. These animal poems are sketches where he is after the "centrality" of the creature. I think that is his first priority and I think he accomplishes that marvelously here. We can all see the baby tortoise and its inner motivations.

But that is not to say that other themes don't grow or are suggested. You guys have already mentioned the significance of the words "alone," "inanimate," and "immense universe." We see the tiny thing's struggle to survive, an exertion of his will to endure. In Lawrentian thought, the exertion of will is what separates animals from plants. Without getting too deep, for Lawrence plant life is a sort of nirvana, the ultimate spiritual goal of living things, and the exertion of will is a sort of consciousness that has separated us from that spirituality. Notice he starts this poem with the birth of the tortoise and he uses a very significant word: "lapsed." Lapsed is how Adam and Eve are referred to after they eat the apple and are doomed to earth and earthly life. The tortoise then is a metaphor for life - animal and human life. I think the tortoise's struggle is our struggle against the inanimate universe. Other stuff going on too, but I think that's the heart of it.

I'll try to answer some of the questions you've brought up in little while.

Janine

07-06-2007, 10:29 PM

Virgil, good post. I liked how you sited the example from WIL. I think that is significant to some extent.

I found this in my offline Lawrence file that I have been compiling for some time. I found it online months ago. I thought it might be of interest. It is part of a letter written by Lawrence, speaking of his poetry; so here you can read his own words....

In light of recent discussions on poetry and for those interested in Lawrence's
writing technique, I thought this letter to Edward Marsh dated Nov. 19, 1913
might be of interest. Lawrence writes in part:

"I think I read my poetry more by length than by stress as a matter of
movements in space than footsteps hitting the earth. . . .I think more of a bird with broad wings flying and lapsing through the air, than anything, when I think of metre. . . .It all depends on the pause, the natural pause, the natural lingering of the voice according to the feeling--it is the hidden emotional pattern that makes poetry, not the obvious form. . . .It is the lapse of the feeling, something as indefinite as expression in the voice carrying emotion. It doesn't depend on the ear, particularly, but on the sensitive soul. And the ear gets a habit, and becomes master, when the ebbing and lifting emotion should be master, and the ear the transmitter. If your ear has got stiff and a bit mechanical, don't blame my poetry. . . .
I can't tell you what pattern I see in any poetry, save one complete
thing. But surely you don't class poetry among the decorative or conventional
arts. I always wonder if the Greeks and Romans really did scan, or if scansion
wasn't a thing invented afterwards by the schoolmaster. Yet I seem to find
about the same number of long lingering notes in each line." (Collected
Letters of DHL, p. 242-44/Vol. I, ed. by H.T. Moore, Heinemann)

The letter includes examples of how Lawrence scans poetry including some lines
of his own from "Roses on the Breakfast Table"/"All of Roses."

I thought it was interesting and I will try to look up the whole letter in my book.

Virgil

07-06-2007, 11:02 PM

Thanks Janine, that was interesting. :) Now that I'm back, where's ktd?

ktd222

07-07-2007, 01:50 AM

I think that passage is relevant in understanding what Lawrece is after in these animal poems. These animal poems are sketches where he is after the "centrality" of the creature. I think that is his first priority and I think he accomplishes that marvelously here. We can all see the baby tortoise and its inner motivations.

But that is not to say that other themes don't grow or are suggested. You guys have already mentioned the significance of the words "alone," "inanimate," and "immense universe." We see the tiny thing's struggle to survive, an exertion of his will to endure. In Lawrentian thought, the exertion of will is what separates animals from plants. Without getting too deep, for Lawrence plant life is a sort of nirvana, the ultimate spiritual goal of living things, and the exertion of will is a sort of consciousness that has separated us from that spirituality. Notice he starts this poem with the birth of the tortoise and he uses a very significant word: "lapsed." Lapsed is how Adam and Eve are referred to after they eat the apple and are doomed to earth and earthly life. The tortoise then is a metaphor for life - animal and human life. I think the tortoise's struggle is our struggle against the inanimate universe. Other stuff going on too, but I think that's the heart of it.

I'll try to answer some of the questions you've brought up in little while.

Thanks Janine, that was interesting. :) Now that I'm back, where's ktd?
I'm here. Been here all the time, but just in a different forum.

This is a great quote, Virgil. I’m hesitant to place Lawrence’s ideology about plants in the context of this poem, though. As for “will” as it applies to the tortoise and human, I think I agree, because that’s exactly what I thought Lawrence felt lacked or was lost in humans.

ktd222

07-07-2007, 01:55 AM

Janine

07-07-2007, 02:50 PM

Interesting indeed! I really never pegged Lawrence as one of those poets who formulated meter and rhyme patterns before he wrote.

Lawrence quote:

I think I read my poetry more by length than by stress as a matter of
movements in space than footsteps hitting the earth. . . .I think more of a bird with broad wings flying and lapsing through the air, than anything, when I think of metre. . . .It all depends on the pause, the natural pause, the natural lingering of the voice according to the feeling--it is the hidden emotional pattern that makes poetry, not the obvious form. . . .It is the lapse of the feeling, something as indefinite as expression in the voice carrying emotion. It doesn't depend on the ear, particularly, but on the sensitive soul. And the ear gets a habit, and becomes master, when the ebbing and lifting emotion should be master, and the ear the transmitter. If your ear has got stiff and a bit mechanical, don't blame my poetry. . . .
I can't tell you what pattern I see in any poetry, save one complete
thing. But surely you don't class poetry among the decorative or conventional arts. I always wonder if the Greeks and Romans really did scan, or if scansion wasn't a thing invented afterwards by the schoolmaster. Yet I seem to find about the same number of long lingering notes in each line(Collected Letters of DHL, p. 242-44/Vol. I, ed. by H.T. Moore, Heinemann)

ktd, I think if you re-read the passage above (I underlined some keywords/phrases) you will notice actually, how unstructured and free L is in his thinking; he seems to let the words, phrases, lines just flow along as it would; then he seems to notice a rhythm and meter emerge, quite natural to Lawrence, himself. The 'keywords' clue you into this idea, indicating what is is not and what is is, using metaphors like "a bird with broad wings flying" to indicate a freedom of style and form. At least this is what I understood his explanation to mean. Lawrence seems not to be restricted by any set rules or criteria, but rather to know of his own freedom and yet to write within his own timing and rhythm and meter, as it comes naturally to him as he writes. Even his use of 'repetition', I believe is 'unconscious' and very 'natural' to Lawrence. Let me know what you think?

Also, ktd, let me know when you want me to post the next poem. I have chosen it - "Tortoise Shell". It is a very interesting poem. You will like it and so will Virgil.

ktd222

07-08-2007, 04:30 AM

ktd, I think if you re-read the passage above (I underlined some keywords/phrases) you will notice actually, how unstructured and free L is in his thinking; he seems to let the words, phrases, lines just flow along as it would; then he seems to notice a rhythm and meter emerge, quite natural to Lawrence, himself. The 'keywords' clue you into this idea, indicating what is is not and what is is, using metaphors like "a bird with broad wings flying" to indicate a freedom of style and form. At least this is what I understood his explanation to mean. Lawrence seems not to be restricted by any set rules or criteria, but rather to know of his own freedom and yet to write within his own timing and rhythm and meter, as it comes naturally to him as he writes. Even his use of 'repetition', I believe is 'unconscious' and very 'natural' to Lawrence. Let me know what you think?

Also, ktd, let me know when you want me to post the next poem. I have chosen it - "Tortoise Shell". It is a very interesting poem. You will like it and so will Virgil.

Well…whether these creations(rhyme, meter, etc) happen beforehand, during, or after the writing process he still falls into one or more of these categories. For me these creations of his did not seem conceived as an afterthought to what was already written. I hope you didn’t miss-take my comment to mean so. I can see where my comment can be read both ways.

It doesn't depend on the ear, particularly, but on the sensitive soul. And the ear gets a habit, and becomes master, when the ebbing and lifting emotion should be master, and the ear the transmitter.

This quote is great. It is so true. This is the primary purpose of such things as rhyme and meter…to reflect one’s emotions, and not for the sake of rhyme and meter alone.

As for the next poem...is Virgil ready? Sounds interesting. I'm looking forward to our next discussion.

Virgil

07-08-2007, 01:39 PM

Yes, lt's get the next poem. :)

Janine

07-08-2007, 02:02 PM

Well…whether these creations(rhyme, meter, etc) happen beforehand, during, or after the writing process he still falls into one or more of these categories. For me these creations of his did not seem conceived as an afterthought to what was already written. I hope you didn’t miss-take my comment to mean so. I can see where my comment can be read both ways.

Hi ktd, yes, I think I must have read your entry just opposite what you meant, sorry. I think we do agree on the fact that L left himself freedom to create and did not adhere to strict rules.

This quote is great. It is so true. This is the primary purpose of such things as rhyme and meter…to reflect one’s emotions, and not for the sake of rhyme and meter alone.

Yes, I agree - I love that quote. Even in letters Lawrence expressed himself so well. He really pinpoints his idea here. I have recently bought a book of his selected letters. I have only read a half dozen so far (too busy at the time to read more). The letters are great - wonderful and I can't wait to explore the entire book.

As for the next poem...is Virgil ready? Sounds interesting. I'm looking forward to our next discussion.

Virgil says he is ready, so we all agree. The poem I chose is also in reference to observing a baby tortoise, but concentrating now on it's shell pattern. This one will make for a good discussion; should be a challenge. Here goes:

Tortoise Shell

The Cross, the Cross
Goes deeper in than we know,
Deeper into life;
Right into the marrow
And through the bone.

Along the back of the baby tortoise
The scales are locked in an arch like a bridge,
Scale-lapping, like a lobster's sections
Or a bee's.

Then crossways down his sides
Tiger-stripes and wasp-bands.

Five, and five again,
And round the edges twenty-five little ones,
The sections of the baby tortoise shell.

Four, and a keystone;
Four, and a keystone;
Four, and a keystone;
Then twenty-four, and a tiny little keystone.

It needed Pythagoras to see life playing with counters on the living back
Of the baby tortoise;
Life establishing the first eternal mathematical tablet,
Not in stone, like the Judean Lord, or bronze, but in life-clouded, life-rosy tortoise shell.

The first little mathematical gentleman
Stepping, wee mite, in his loose trousers
Under all the eternal dome of the mathematical law.

Fives, and tens,
Threes and fours and twelves,
All the volte face of decimals,
The whirligig of dozens and the pinnacle of seven.

Turn him on his back,
The kicking little beetle.
And there again, on his shell-tender, earth-touching belly,
The long cleavage of division, upright of the eternal cross
And on either side count five,

On each side, two above, on each side, two below
The dark bar horizontal.

The Cross!
It goes right through him, the sprottling insect,
Through his cross-wise cloven psyche,
Through his five-fold complex-nature.

So turn him over on his toes again;
Four pin-point toes, and a problematical thumb-piece,
Four rowing limbs, and one wedge-balancing head,
Four and one makes five, which is the clue to all mathematics.

The Lord wrote it down on the little slate
Of the baby tortoise.
Outward and visible indication of the plan within,
The complex, manifold involvedness of an individual creature
Plotted out
On this small bird, this rudiment,
This little dome, this pediment
Of all creation,
This slow one.

Virgil

07-10-2007, 09:32 PM

There are some things I understand in this poem and some things I don't get. The striking thing is the numerology and what it means. Perhaps this is the core:

It needed Pythagoras to see life playing with counters on the living back
Of the baby tortoise;
Life establishing the first eternal mathematical tablet,
Not in stone, like the Judean Lord, or bronze, but in life-clouded, life-rosy tortoise shell.
So much mathematical numbers. Very unlike Lawrence. I frankly don't understand.

What I do understand is that the tortoise again stands for man and life. The cross for Lawrence symbolizes the duality of life. The cross is a bifurcation, a division into two. So that adds to the numerology of the poem. The cross divides the flesh from spirit, blood consciousness from mental consciousness, life from death. This is at the start of the poem.

The Cross, the Cross
Goes deeper in than we know,
Deeper into life;
Right into the marrow
And through the bone.

The tortoise is alive and therefore separated by the dualities of existence.

Any thoughts on the numerology?

Janine

07-10-2007, 11:10 PM

Virgil, I do actually have thoughts on the numerology. I have gotten them recently from reading Lawrence's "Apogalypse". In fact I just read much about numbers significance last night. I will check back into the book. I am nearly done and it has given me great insight into how Lawrence was thinking, even referring back to references to myth in "Women in Love". It contains much symbolism and one chapter dealt mainly with the significance in myth of numbers, such as the number 7, which is prominent throughout Revelations, as you must know. However he goes much deeper into the whole number significance in the book in that particular chapter, or two. Give me some time on this one and I think I can come up with some new ideas - Lawrencian ideas - of course.

Virgil, thanks for taking the time to post and comment. I thought you would find the poem interesting. When I came across it, it was like nothing I had read of Lawrence's before.

The rest of what you say makes sense and is new to me to some degree, so I am highly interested to hear more. I never heard this word before bifurcation; interesting. This is a very good start. Thanks! :)

Virgil

07-10-2007, 11:20 PM

Oh I am interested in the numerology. Yes i vaguely remember Lawrence talking about the number seven in Apocalypse. Let me know what page numbers you are looking at I will dig out my copy and read it too.

From M-W:

bifurcate
Main Entry: bi·fur·cate
Pronunciation: \ˈbī-(ˌ)fər-ˌkāt, bī-ˈfər-\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): bi·fur·cat·ed; bi·fur·cat·ing
Etymology: Medieval Latin bifurcatus, past participle of bifurcare, from Latin bifurcus two-pronged, from bi- + furca fork
Date: 1615
transitive verb
: to cause to divide into two branches or parts
intransitive verb
: to divide into two branches or parts

Janine

07-10-2007, 11:35 PM

Oh I am interested in the numerology. Yes i vaguely remember Lawrence talking about the number seven in Apocalypse. Let me know what page numbers you are looking at I will dig out my copy and read it too.

From M-W:

Virgil, I'm fascinated with the numerology, too. In fact it is my favorite part of the book, so far, but that is not to say that this book has not drawn me in 'attention-wise' from the start.

Ok, numbers are thoughout the book mentioned,but the intense study of numbers seem to begin at chapter Seventeen and continues through to Twenty-One. The chapters are short here. Glad you have a copy of the book available. I think I am on chapter 20; I should complete the book tonight.
Wish it were not a library copy. I may scan or photocopy the book since it too, is quit expensive to buy.

Thanks for posting the word definition and origin. Great!

This particular stanza stands out in significance to me and refers directly to the numbers that L is discussing in Apogalypse:

Fives, and tens,
Threes and fours and twelves,
All the volte face of decimals,
The whirligig of dozens and the pinnacle of seven

Threes and fours Lawrence has been talking about extensively and the number seven, which is mentioned throughout the bible, not only in Revelations. 12 is also an astrological reference to the planets and the ruling signs of the zodiac. I don't know what the "volte face of decimals" means, do you as an engineer? 10 was considered a perfect number since 4,3,2,1 makes up 10. It is all so perplexing but fascinating.

I have printed out the poem, so that might be able to better compare with the Apogalypse text.

quasimodo1

07-10-2007, 11:46 PM

Janine

07-10-2007, 11:57 PM

To Janine and Virgil: Have you ever heard about the spiritual/sacred nature of the number 12. According to several writers with little scientific evidence but still having that "ring of truth" to their work, humans will only have evolved to a peaceful species in harmony with this and other planets when they have achieved 12 strand DNA. If you want my source, the extreme range of my interests will probably be intrigueing.

Quasi, I do find this interesting. Yes, in the book I am reading Lawrence has mentioned 12 often in reference to the Apogalypse. Also, the idea of time, not as a straightline, but as a circle. There are more significant numbers such as 3 which cannot be divided and leave a gap or space...something like that. You may know better than I. I will look it up in the book. The numbers 4, 3, 2, 1 add up to 10 - also significant, 10 being a mystical number in many cultures. Whatever information you have on this and what you have written above, about the number 12, would be very fascinating to me and I am sure to Virgil. That is particularly interesting about the "12 strand DNA". Yes, let us know the source of that information.

Quasi, have you read the poem? Have you any ideas on the numerology as applied to the poem?

quasimodo1

07-11-2007, 12:07 AM

To Janine and Virgil: Please don't ask me to go to any biblical reference becasue of my deep feelings and prejudices and my desire to not offend believers in the "good book". One interesting fact is that about two hundred years of so before the birth of Christ, the most important Rabbis (teachers) in the Jewish kindom had a large conclave the purpose of which was to decide what parts of the bible to keep and what parts to get rid of. This really happened. What are we to make of that. What are we to make of the Dead Sea Scrolls which the roman catholic church kept a tight and secret grip on for forty years. The contents only came out because they were so effecient ( and believe me the high clerics of the church are so) that they kept a card catalog of every word on every scroll (including the copper ones), where they were located on the fragment by number and sentence. Some really smart guys who were working for them realized all they had to do was feed this information into a mainframe and eureka...you have all the dead sea scrolls in original format. How do they get interpreted...now there's the rub. quasimodo1

quasimodo1

07-11-2007, 12:17 AM

Ok here's a book that you might not ever forget even if you want to. It is so far out that it's almost too much to dismiss. The astonomy of the Pliedies (spelling) is important to the case. Just who the author is channelling with is just plain baffling but then they almost got you with "K-Pax", didn't they? No further comment on this is required as we all might be thrown of the site as abductees. http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAspectarian/1998/December/1298-02.htm

Janine

07-11-2007, 12:33 AM

Well, Quasi, we are getting a little off the topic, aren't we? Remember the Tortoise poem? I just skimmed the article; it's too long to read in depth; I am too tired now, but as you said who this woman is channeling with is beyond our comprehension - aliens or what? K-Pax? we should be in the movie thread. Also, the article mentions Y2K and it was written in 1995, before the millenium....the supposed big Y2K event. Now the 'dead sea scrolls' - they interest me. Any articles on those?

quasimodo1

07-11-2007, 12:37 AM

To Janine: Since I'm not up to speed on Lawrence's poems, I did manage to dig up this combination pub/shrine which thrives on D.H.'s work. Hope it is more than just a diversion...
OUT OF STOCK
978-1-55017-194-5 · 1-55017-194-1
$16.95 · Paperback
6 x 9 · 104 pp · 1998
Table of Contents and Introductions by Purdy and Beardsley
Excerpt
Reviews
No One Else is Lawrence!
A Dozen of D.H Lawrence's Best Poems
by Doug Beardsley & Al Purdy

Winner of a BC 2000 Book Prize

"Canada needs more books like this."
-Wireweed

Almost seventy years after his death, D.H. Lawrence (1885--1930) remains one of the most complex and controversial figures in English literature. Remembering the days when the English writer was vilified as a writer of "sexy books with four-letter words," twice Governor-General's Award-winning poet Al Purdy feels that Lawrence should be celebrated not only for his prose work, but for his poetry.

"Lawrence's genius [as a poet] has long been obscured by the brilliance and fame of his novels and essays," Purdy writes in his introduction to this literary feast. "But let's ignore both critics and admirers and look at the poems. At his very best, Lawrence's poems are unequaled."

from: http://www.harbourpublishing.com/title/NoOneElseisLawrence

ktd222

07-11-2007, 02:06 AM

Virgil

07-11-2007, 04:27 PM

Lots of number in the poem, but I agree, five seems to be the most important. I have no idea why exactly. Here is where he brings together the cross symbol and the number five:

The Cross!
It goes right through him, the sprottling insect,
Through his cross-wise cloven psyche,
Through his five-fold complex-nature.
In what way is nature "five fold?" That would seem to be the key to understanding this poem.

Also, there is in the last stanza a neat little conclusion that sums the whole poem up.

The Lord wrote it down on the little slate
Of the baby tortoise.
Outward and visible indication of the plan within,
The complex, manifold involvedness of an individual creature
Plotted out
On this small bird, this rudiment,
This little dome, this pediment
Of all creation,
This slow one.
The Lord wrote the significance of life on the little slate of the baby tortoise shell. That is the central theme. But what exactly did He write?

Janine

07-11-2007, 05:57 PM

I have been reading you posts - all of them truly fascinating. I can tell you both have an engineering mind. I reviewed the "Apogalypse" book last night and I think I have come up with some answers/ideas - I have definitely come up with some correlations in L's thinking to the bibilical references of numbers and number systems. I will either scan parts that are of interest/relevant to this topic or type them out.

I have a question, Virgil and ktd: The 'pentagon' is a plane figure with 5 angles and 5 sides. Could this have significance? Pentagons play heavily into myth and legend and mystiscism and the biblical. 5 is a very prominent number in the Apogalyspe/Revelations. I will look up the direct references to the number 5 and what significance it has.

I think the last 2 lines of the poem embodies the theme, if taken in context with the whole stanza. This is the pattern found throughout nature - therefore the formula/pattern on the Tortoise is written down as the formula "Of all creation". The tortoise shell embodies the map or the numerical equation for all things in nature and creation. I will look up this fact in my nature books and also confer with a friend of mine who is heavy into botany and nature, and get back to you on this idea.

This poem is truly a challenge and very exciting to me!

I will be back soon with a full entry and also want to comment on both of your posts. ktd brings up some very interesting numerical facts, like the 5 creatures mentioned. I think I know what they may represent as well. I have to study the poem closer.

grace86

07-11-2007, 06:18 PM

The irony. I've been speaking with a fellow LitNetter about wanting to get into reading more poetry. Hmmm....Janine, you've got to stop wandering into my brain!!!

I'm a newbie to poetry. Maybe I will see how I work this out!

Janine

07-11-2007, 06:36 PM

Grace, glad to see you here! Yes, we must have ESP!
This poem is a good one - a real puzzle and a challenge. You will like it. We have had good disussions on this thread, thanks to ktd and Virgil, of course.
I have some new information on the short story. Found some stuff today in a critical review book I bought a year ago and forgot I had. You know the old story: "so many books, too little time."
Anyway, delighted to see you here, Grace!

Janine

07-12-2007, 12:08 AM

Ok, here are my thoughts.

I almost want to look at this poem inward out, for what we observe on the tortoise’s shell is in actuality like observing the composition of the tortoise itself. What interest me is the tortoise shell’s structure being likened to all these different creatures:

“scale-lapping, like a lobster’s sections/or a bee’s; the crossways down his sides/tiger-stripes and wasp-bands; the kicking little beetle”

ktd,, Hope you caught my other post right after yours last night. Ok, I have been researching and thinking like crazy about this poem. I know what you mean by your first statement. Lawrence does mention the pattern on the underside of the tortoise being similar or the same. I think the animal, insect images are referring to set patterns in nature such as 'wasp-bands', 'tiger-stripes'. These all have a formula and a predestined pattern based on numbers/shapes in nature. Here are some references I have come up with from my readings about patterns in nature:
This site on patterning, hope this is the right link -
http://www.scottcamazine.com/personal/DesignNature/

Also, the references to the pentagon shape are interesting and incorporate the idea of the number 5. If you take a pentagon and connect the points you will come up with a star pattern or the pentagram. Here's the definitions of each:

pentagon
In geometry, a pentagon is any five-sided polygon. However, the term is commonly used to mean a regular pentagon, where all sides are equal and all angles are equal (to 108°). The angles in every pentagon total 540°, even if each individual angle is not 108°. Its Schläfli symbol is {5}.
The area of a regular pentagon with side length t is given by
The sides and diagonals of a regular pentagon are in the golden ratio.

A pentagram
A pentagram (sometimes known as pentalpha or pentangle) is the shape of a five-pointed star drawn with five straight strokes. The word pentagram comes from the Greek word πεντάγραμμον (pentagrammon), a noun form of πεντάγραμμος (pentagrammos) or πεντέγραμμος (pentegrammos), a word meaning roughly "five-lined" or "five lines".
Pentagrams were used symbolically in ancient Greece and Babylonia. The Pentagram has magical associations, and many people who practice neopagan faiths wear jewelry incorporating the symbol. Christians once more commonly used the pentagram to represent the five wounds of Jesus,[1][2] and it also has associations within Freemasonry.
The pentagram has long been associated with the planet Venus, and the worship of the goddess Venus, or her equivalent. It is also associated with the Roman Lucifer, who was Venus as the Morning Star, the bringer of light and knowledge. It is most likely to have originated from the observations of prehistoric astronomers.[citation needed] When viewed from Earth, successive inferior conjunctions of Venus plot a nearly perfect pentagram shape around the zodiac every eight years.
The word "pentacle" is sometimes used synonymously with "pentagram", although their technical usages are different, and their etymologies may be unrelated.[3]
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note throughout both texts an emphasis on the number 5. The star formed by the pentagram has 5 points and the pentagon has 5 points and 5 sides. Also most notable is that in nature the pentagon is the shape of a cell in a bee's honeycomb. If you look at the back of a tortoise two things stand out right away - the top series of the shell parts look like a lobster. The second thing I notice is the the sections also look similar to pentagons.

The importance of these specific creatures…I don’t know; but I think the more important thing is we “see life playing” on the tortoise shell. In the last poem I questioned whether Lawrence believed in evolution; in this poem Lawrence states the Lord set out the plan on the tortoise; in this way I feel the tortoise did not evolve from other creatures as a result of there surroundings more than the tortoise came about in accordance to His plan.

I believe the significance of the creatures is two-fold. These are creatures that correlate with ancient myth and the bible. Also, they represent the patterning found in nature as I pointed out in the last paragraph. I agree about the line "to see life playing", but put that back into context, you will understand that entire idea and statement that Lawrence is saying "It needed Pythagoras to see life playing with counters on the living back" - with "counters" part is important. Here is a brief history on Pythagoras (I underlined key phrases, words that might pertain to the ideas we are discussing in reference to the poem):

Pythagoras
Pythagoras of Samos (Greek: Πυθαγόρας; between 580 and 572 BC–between 500 and 490 BC) was an Ionian (Greek) philosopher[1] and founder of the religious movement called Pythagoreanism. He is often revered as a great mathematician, mystic and scientist; however some have questioned the scope of his contributions to mathematics or natural philosophy. [2] His name led him to be associated with Pythian Apollo; Aristippus explained his name by saying, "He spoke (agor-) the truth no less than did the Pythian (Pyth-)," and Iamblichus tells the story that the Pythia prophesied that his pregnant mother would give birth to a man supremely beautiful, wise, and of benefit to humankind. [3]
He is best known for the Pythagorean theorem which bears his name. Known as "the father of numbers," Pythagoras made influential contributions to philosophy and religious teaching in the late 6th century BC. Because legend and obfuscation cloud his work even more than with the other pre-Socratics, one can say little with confidence about his life and teachings. We do know that Pythagoras and his students believed that everything was related to mathematics and that numbers were the ultimate reality and, through mathematics, everything could be predicted and measured in rhythmic patterns or cycles. According to Iamblichus, Pythagoras once said that "number is the ruler of forms and ideas and the cause of gods and demons."
He was the first man to call himself a philosopher, or lover of wisdom. Many of the accomplishments of Plato, Aristotle and Copernicus were based on the ideas of Pythagoras. Unfortunately, very little is known about Pythagoras because none of his writings have survived. Many of the accomplishments credited to Pythagoras may actually have been accomplishments of his colleagues and successors.
From Wikipedia

The other thing I noticed you two noticed as well: the importance of numbers in this poem. For me the denomination that stood out was five, since the tortoise was described as a “five-folded complex-natured” creature. I think if you go through the poem and count the number of creatures that are mentioned, you get five. And if you look at the grooves that run throughout the tortoise shell, it is analogous to one river that feeds into a whole bunch of smaller streams which crisscross each other. The numbers “fives and tens/threes and fours and twelves” can be obtained, depending on which streams you select for the river to feed into, sectioning off the spaces(like the sections of the tortoise shell) in between the streams.

Again since you said this, I have noticed '5' being prominent in the poem, but in this stanza, I think Lawrence is pointing out important numbers found in Revelations/Apogalypse:

Fives, and tens,
Threes and fours and twelves,
All the volte face of decimals,
The whirligig of dozens and the pinnacle of seven

ktd, is there actually 5 creatures mentioned? I am fascinated with this thought. Your last statement about the river I don't quite understand in relation to the numbers, but I find it totally intriguing. There again, nature is set by a mathematical equation or pattern. This highly interests me.

Even more important than the number five is every fifth integer: five, ten, fifteen, etc. This fifth integer was described as the keystone at one point in the poem, which is a kind of lock that is used as support by keeping arches locked to each other; in another part of the poem the fifth integer is the “wedge-balancing head” needed to balance off the “four rowing limbs”. But in another part of the poem it is described as the “problematic thumb-piece” to the other “four pin-point toes”. What? I don’t get this because it goes contradictory to the stabilization factor of this fifth integer.

Now you are talking in an engineering mind and I can only half grasp what you are saying. Again it does intrigue me. I think the 5 pin-point toes can be correlated to a human hand with 5 fingers. In this passage from Lawrence's book "Apogalypse" he writes:

Chapter Twenty

The number ten is the natural number of a series. 'It is by nature that the Hellenes count up to ten and then start over again.' It is of course the number of the fingers of the two hands. This repetition of five observed throughout nature was one of the things that led the Pythagoreans to assert that 'all things are number'. In the Apocalypse, ten is the 'natural' or complete number of a series. The Pythagoreans, experimenting with pebbles, found that ten pebbles could be laid out in a triangle of 4 + 3 + 2 + I: and this sent their minds off in imagination.

Also, note 4, 3, 2, 1 add up to 10. Half of 10 is 5 - prominent in the poem, since the cross divides the shell into halves and then halves again. 5 are the number of fingers/toes in humans. Lawrence is referring to the tortoise “four pin-point toes” and then "Four rowing limbs, and one wedge-balancing head" -could this correspond to human beings having - two hands/arms and two feet/legs and a head. This conjures up to me DiVinci's image of a man set in a Pentagon. This being the perfect mathematical and balanced image of man. I too wonder why L is calling the thumb-piece problematical. What exactly is the thumb-piece, do you know? Are the toes on a tortoise's foot 4 pointed and therefore devoid of a thumb as humans?

In my next post, I will quote some more references from "Apogalyse" about numerology. This might throw more light on the significance of the creatures and the number significance, as well.

ktd222

07-12-2007, 08:26 AM

http://www.fishtaxidermist.com/turtleshells.jpg

I thought I’d share this. I think I can identify most of the numbers he mentioned in the poem. When I say groove, I’m referring to the yellow line moving up/down and right/left of the segment(which are the colored-in geometric structures) on the back of these tortoise shells.

Along the back of the baby tortoise
The scales are locked in an arch like a bridge,
Scale-lapping, like a lobster's sections
Or a bee's.

Note the segments straight down the middle. To either right or left of the middle are colored segments which do like lobster’s or bee’s segments. If you look at the segments from a lateral view the segments do look like a bridge.

Then crossways down his sides
Tiger-stripes and wasp-bands.

The grooves which are horizontal to the vertical segments, these grooves do move in a “crossways” fashion, and do look like stripes or bands.

Five, and five again,
And round the edges twenty-five little ones,
The sections of the baby tortoise shell.

If you count the segments inside the “twenty-five little ones” around the edge of the tortoise shell, not counting the three segments that are positioned vertically down the middle of the tortoise shell, you will count ten segments. If you move in a circular motion and count up the segments you will get five, and then keep moving around in until you complete the circle and you will get another five segments. I hope that is what he means by “five, and five again”.

Four, and a keystone;
Four, and a keystone;
Four, and a keystone;
Then twenty-four, and a tiny little keystone.

On the back of the shell, the segments that are in the middle moving vertically upward(imagine the top segment as the keystone), then if you count the segments on each side and in the middle, vertically upward until you reach the keystone, you will count four segments each.

Fives, and tens,
Threes and fours and twelves,
All the volte face of decimals,
The whirligig of dozens and the pinnacle of seven.

I can’t tell you what he is referring to when he mentions “fives, and tens,/threes and fours and twelves”, but I can tell you where he possible saw the “pinnacle of seven” on this tortoise’s shell. If you take all the segments running down the middle of this tortoise shell and count, you get five segments; then go crosswise , say, at between the top segment and segment right below and count, you get another two segments. So the total is seven segments which forms a cross.

You can identify the cleavages underneath this tortoise shell as well, by counting segments in this way.

Virgil

07-12-2007, 09:35 AM

That is great work KTD!!! :thumbs_up :thumbs_up Two thumbs up. A picture says it all. So do you think he's just putting into words the natural reality, or do you think there is some numerology (i.e. mystic) meaning to it all?

Janine

07-12-2007, 01:52 PM

ktd, thanks for all the mathematical explanations and the photos. I will read what you have written a few times more and correlate with the photos. I also found some photos to post last night but it was too late, now you have beat me to it. Strangely enough your shells are more patterned than mine I found on the net, and they do remind me of the other creatures mentioned. I found plainer shelled ones, but the lobster in the center stands out espeically (it was the first thing I thought of when finding these photos) Their center shells overlap each other like scales. Your tortoises seems to have smooth shells - very beautiful they are, by the way! I will post the photo at the end of my post.

First, has anyone read my terribly long post? Sorry it was a lot to read. I was trying to get to a few points, but I may have overstated my idea by posting too much text. Here is the essense of it which I think answers Virgil's last question.

I think the animal, insect images are referring to set patterns in nature such as 'wasp-bands', 'tiger-stripes'. These all have a formula and a predestined pattern based on numbers/shapes in nature. Here are some references I have come up with from my readings about patterns in nature:
This site on patterning, hope this is the right link -
http://www.scottcamazine.com/personal/DesignNature/

Also, the references to the pentagon shape are interesting and incorporate the idea of the number 5. If you take a pentagon and connect the points you will come up with a star pattern or the pentagram.

I believe the significance of the creatures is two-fold. These are creatures that correlate with ancient myth and the bible. Also, they represent the patterning found in nature as I pointed out in the last paragraph. I agree about the line "to see life playing", but put that back into context, you will understand that entire idea and statement that Lawrence is saying "It needed Pythagoras to see life playing with counters on the living back" - with "counters" part is important.

Pythagoras was considered the 'Father of Mathematics'. The pentagon and the pentagram play into this scheme in that prominent are the 5 points and the number 5 which makes up parts of the scheme. There are many ideas associated with the number 5 and 7 as you have pointed out ktd. Pentagons are part of a bees honeycomb, also a set pattern in the universe.
I think Lawrence is seeing in this tortoise's shell a mathematical formula that corresponds to all creation, man included. We have so many teeth, 2 feet, 2 hands, two lungs, one heart, etc. The outer shell of the tortoise only displays all of the patterns of creation and the physical world. The bee has a set pattern of stripes, the tiger as well; beetles have a shell, not so unlike the protective shell of the tortoise. Lobsters have a shell with a set number of segments. Man can stand and extend his arms and legs and head and be contained within a circle, these are set proportions in nature. (interesting since Lawrence believed as the ancients that time ran in a circular fashion and not a straight line.)

I think this poem encompasses a broader scale of thought. Lawrence's thoughts were very connected to the heavens and I believe the stanza with all the numbers refers to a more universal heavenly connection to life. Lawrence believed all creation was a part of the patterns found in the heavens, planets, stars, universe. Therefore, man and this one tiny creature are connected to all living things and the universe.

Virgil

07-12-2007, 02:01 PM

I think this poem encompasses a broader scale of thought. Lawrence's thoughts were very connected to the heavens and I believe the stanza with all the numbers refers to a more universal heavenly connection to life. Lawrence believed all creation was a part of the patterns found in the heavens, planets, stars, universe. Therefore, man and this one tiny creature are connected to all living things and the universe.

I did read it Janine and found it helpful. I think your comment here is right on. I agree Lawrence is trying to interconnect all of creation and yet the tortoise is an animal with a will. I think the cross is the symbol that separates the tortoise from the heavens. It doesn't seem to be within the numerical context.

Janine

07-12-2007, 02:13 PM

Virgil, thanks for reading my posts. I think the cross is significant - why else would he begin the poem with it? Also he repeats the idea throughout the poem. Do you think it is a reference to Christ or to something more Lawrencian - more universal? I would be interested to hear more of your theory on the idea of the cross. Interesting that it is made up of the number 7 as ktd points out since 7 is very prominent throughout the bible and history. The numbers have to mean something, have some direct significance, don't you think?

Here is a link to some more tortoise photos - these are much different than what ktd posted. Maybe these are the common garden variety :lol:

This might come out huge, I tried to reduce them with no luck in the photo program - sorry if it is a large photo.
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p70/sealace/TortoiseShell.jpg

ktd222

07-12-2007, 07:37 PM

Janine,

I will try and reply to your posts in the next couple of days. I'm working full shift for Thursday and Friday, so I will be too tired to give your posts proper attention. :)

Janine

07-12-2007, 10:24 PM

Janine,

I will try and reply to your posts in the next couple of days. I'm working full shift for Thursday and Friday, so I will be too tired to give your posts proper attention. :)

ktd, no problem at all. How sweet and considerate you are to post this to let me know. I would like to take a little 'brain' break myself. Do take your time, and get back to me on my posts... eventually, when you are better able take a breather from work. I fully understand. Hope work goes well for you. We all have 'real' lives outside of Lit Net. I went out all afternoon and quite enjoyed my real life today - no thought of tortoises!;) :lol:

Virgil

07-13-2007, 10:05 PM

Janine

07-13-2007, 11:34 PM

I did a little reseach on Lawrence's Tortoise poems and I wanted to share it with you. The Tortoise poems are a sequence of six poems that Lawrence wrote and first published as a small bookl called Tortoise (1921) and then incoproated into a much larger book of poems called Birds, Beasts and Flowers (1923). The Tortoise poems were actually written in September of 1920 while Lawrence was staying alone in Florence, Italy. The six poems are called "Baby Tortoise," "Tortoise Shell," "Tortoise Family Connections," "Lui Et Elle," "Tortoise Gallantry," and "Tortoise Shout." The movement of the poems goes from birth to adulthood to death. Thy span the life cycle.

Virgil, this is good information; thanks for digging it up. :thumbs_up I was wondering when they were written. In my book I have all of them. When ktd first asked about "Baby Tortoise" I looked it up and saw there were more of them to my initial surprise. Interesting they were first published in their own book or volume. I knew about the series "Birds, Beasts and Flowers". It makes sense they were later incorporated into this collection. Are we then, doing them in the right order? This one speaks of the tortoise as being a baby T, as well. I think it was next in my book and it is second in your list. I will check my book. I read part of "Tortoise Family Connections". I think that one is quite long. This is so interesting that it goes from birth to adulthood to death. Lawrence would think in this way.
Glad to have started this thread - it is a good one and so are the discussions so far. I had never read this series of poems before now. I think they are marvelous.

ktd222

07-15-2007, 02:08 PM

Have you ever participated in a discussion, left the discussion for a while, and when you came back everything said seems so confusing? That’s how I feel right now.

That is great work KTD!!! :thumbs_up :thumbs_up Two thumbs up. A picture says it all. So do you think he's just putting into words the natural reality, or do you think there is some numerology (i.e. mystic) meaning to it all?

Thanks Virgil.
Janine stated it well:
I think this poem encompasses a broader scale of thought. Lawrence's thoughts were very connected to the heavens and I believe the stanza with all the numbers refers to a more universal heavenly connection to life. Lawrence believed all creation was a part of the patterns found in the heavens, planets, stars, universe. Therefore, man and this one tiny creature are connected to all living things and the universe.

ktd,, Hope you caught my other post right after yours last night. Ok, I have been researching and thinking like crazy about this poem. I know what you mean by your first statement. Lawrence does mention the pattern on the underside of the tortoise being similar or the same. I think the animal, insect images are referring to set patterns in nature such as 'wasp-bands', 'tiger-stripes'. These all have a formula and a predestined pattern based on numbers/shapes in nature. Here are some references I have come up with from my readings about patterns in nature:
This site on patterning, hope this is the right link -
http://www.scottcamazine.com/personal/DesignNature/

I read the link. As I said in my first post this poem seems to dismiss the theory of evolution in favor of a divine plan; so I’m kind of skeptical about the theories given by these scientists, since the patterns we see seem preordained by a divine power.

I like what you said about these creatures which are mentioned following a predestined numbering system; it goes well with the numbering system that is emerging from the description of the tortoise shell and tortoise itself.

Yes…about the “mentioning of pattern on the underside of the tortoise being similar or the same.” But even one step further…to say that the patterns provided on the tortoise’s shell was seared right into the marrow of this tortoise.

I believe the significance of the creatures is two-fold. These are creatures that correlate with ancient myth and the bible. Also, they represent the patterning found in nature as I pointed out in the last paragraph. I agree about the line "to see life playing", but put that back into context, you will understand that entire idea and statement that Lawrence is saying "It needed Pythagoras to see life playing with counters on the living back" - with "counters" part is important. Here is a brief history on Pythagoras (I underlined key phrases, words that might pertain to the ideas we are discussing in reference to the poem):

Again since you said this, I have noticed '5' being prominent in the poem, but in this stanza, I think Lawrence is pointing out important numbers found in Revelations/Apogalypse:

Yes, those “two-fold” notes are significant. I would like to here more of the mythical significance of these creatures though.

What’s interesting about this stanza is the reference of the tortoise shell as the “first eternal mathematical tablet,” which can be construed as every other mathematical pattern we see emerging (however complex) in other species derives from the original patterns we see on the tortoise shell.

I was thinking about five as being the important denomination/factor on this tortoise shell and its possible connection to these other numbers(threes and fours and twelves; seven)…and I wonder if the cross shape on the tortoise shell is the “glue” which makes the pattern we see possible; it’s a theory.

ktd, is there actually 5 creatures mentioned?

Yes, he did mention five creatures:

“scale-lapping, like a lobster’s sections/or a bee’s; the crossways down his sides/tiger-stripes and wasp-bands; the kicking little beetle”

Now you are talking in an engineering mind and I can only half grasp what you are saying. Again it does intrigue me. I think the 5 pin-point toes can be correlated to a human hand with 5 fingers. In this passage from Lawrence's book "Apogalypse" he writes:

Also, note 4, 3, 2, 1 add up to 10. Half of 10 is 5 - prominent in the poem, since the cross divides the shell into halves and then halves again. 5 are the number of fingers/toes in humans. Lawrence is referring to the tortoise “four pin-point toes” and then "Four rowing limbs, and one wedge-balancing head" -could this correspond to human beings having - two hands/arms and two feet/legs and a head. This conjures up to me DiVinci's image of a man set in a Pentagon. This being the perfect mathematical and balanced image of man. I too wonder why L is calling the thumb-piece problematical. What exactly is the thumb-piece, do you know? Are the toes on a tortoise's foot 4 pointed and therefore devoid of a thumb as humans?

Yeah, it just seemed that whenever the tortoise was described, there was extra emphasis on the fifth segment, or twenty-fifth segment, or the fifth toe, or fifth limb.

I wish “threes and fours and twelves” added up to ten; then the first part of that one stanza would fit perfectly; but other than this little bit, you make a good connection between humans and tortoises.

As for the “thumb-piece,” I really don’t know. Do tortoises have a need for this “thumb-piece”? Doesn’t a “thumb-piece” mean just a piece of a thumb?

Janine

07-15-2007, 05:05 PM

Have you ever participated in a discussion, left the discussion for a while, and when you came back everything said seems so confusing? That’s how I feel right now.

ktd, so sorry....Yeah, someone just popped into the "Women in Love"/last month's book and said they nearly finished up their reading, then commented 'how am I suppose to read through 16 pgs of postings?' I had to sympathise. I went back to try to find what she was referring to specifically in a question to the forum and I felt totally lost; and many of those postings I had done myself! I can imagine that you were confused, but glad to see you took one thing at a time and commented on them accordingly.

Janine stated it well:
"I think this poem encompasses a broader scale of thought. Lawrence's thoughts were very connected to the heavens and I believe the stanza with all the numbers refers to a more universal heavenly connection to life. Lawrence believed all creation was a part of the patterns found in the heavens, planets, stars, universe. Therefore, man and this one tiny creature are connected to all living things and the universe."

I read the link. As I said in my first post this poem seems to dismiss the theory of evolution in favor of a divine plan; so I’m kind of skeptical about the theories given by these scientists, since the patterns we see seem preordained by a divine power.

I like what you said about these creatures which are mentioned following a predestined numbering system; it goes well with the numbering system that is emerging from the description of the tortoise shell and tortoise itself.

Yes…about the “mentioning of pattern on the underside of the tortoise being similar or the same.” But even one step further…to say that the patterns provided on the tortoise’s shell was seared right into the marrow of this tortoise.

Glad you agree with these ideas. They are Lawrence's of course, but I do believe the universe is ordered and runs by a system. I don't know if this eliminated the whole idea of 'evolution', since L was very aware of Darwin's studies on the subject. Lawrence did feel the connectiveness of all creation. I think in the final line of this poem, I can now see the entire theme of the poem in these lines:

The complex, manifold involvedness of an individual creature
Plotted out
On this small bird, this rudiment,
This little dome, this pediment
Of all creation,
This slow one.

Here we see the connection summed up - the small creature to the larger whole of all creation. Lawrence believed in the connection of the individual with the collective in all of life.

Yes, those “two-fold” notes are significant. I would like to here more of the mythical significance of these creatures though.

I know, I have been trying to figure that out, because in his "Apogalypse" book he does point out many mythological creatures and their significance. I can see the bee's connectiveness to the poem's ideas with the hive and the honeycomb, which is made up of penagons and all make a 'collective whole'. Does this not mimic the idea of small parts/beings making up a universal whole? The individual bee works separately, but for the collective good and the queen who is the ruler. Other than the patterns on the bodies of the other creatures I am not sure of their significance. I know beetles do have significance in ancient lore, beetles or the scarab are found throughout Egyptian civilization and have great significance. Let me look up all the animals/creatures and see if I can come up with something else.

“scale-lapping, like a lobster’s sections/or a bee’s; the crossways down his sides/tiger-stripes and wasp-bands; the kicking little beetle”

I was also thinking that lobsters are sea creatures - water, bees are air, tigers are land, and beetle are insects (fire?). I had the vague thought about the 4 elements: fire, earth, air, water. These 4 are mentioned in the "Apogalypse" and also Revelations and astrology. Maybe one represents the idea of fire. I am not sure - could the beetle? Fireflies are a kind of beetle right?

What’s interesting about this stanza is the reference of the tortoise shell as the “first eternal mathematical tablet,” which can be construed as every other mathematical pattern we see emerging (however complex) in other species derives from the original patterns we see on the tortoise shell.

I do agree fully.

I was thinking about five as being the important denomination/factor on this tortoise shell and its possible connection to these other numbers(threes and fours and twelves; seven)…and I wonder if the cross shape on the tortoise shell is the “glue” which makes the pattern we see possible; it’s a theory.

I don't know exactly. Perhaps. It is an interesting theory. I read recently that Lawrence stated that sometimes an image will just suggest to us things ingrained in our subconscious. I would think this image of a cross, as soon as he says it in the first lines, brings to mind religious connotations and significance. What that means to Lawrence I am not quite sure. I am still pondering that part. But the fact that he does repeat cross so often, makes me long to know the full significance of the word in the way he is using it here.

I have a question. If you look on the various tortoise photos, where is the keystone L is referring to? To note: I like your tortoise better than mine I posted; their shells are extraordinaryly beautiful! I only posted mine thinking they were plainer, perhaps the garden variety; also the fact that the shells seem to overlap, as Lawrence indicated in the poem. I thought particularly the lobster part stood out; when I first found the photo, I saw that right away. I don't know much about Tortoises or where they live or what varieties there are, do you? Apparently, as Virgil mentioned in his post, these poems were written when Lawrence was in Italy. So I suppose L's tortoise was Italian.;) Hear that Virgil? :lol:

Yeah, it just seemed that whenever the tortoise was described, there was extra emphasis on the fifth segment, or twenty-fifth segment, or the fifth toe, or fifth limb.

I wish “threes and fours and twelves” added up to ten; then the first part of that one stanza would fit perfectly; but other than this little bit, you make a good connection between humans and tortoises.

As for the “thumb-piece,” I really don’t know. Do tortoises have a need for this “thumb-piece”? Doesn’t a “thumb-piece” mean just a piece of a thumb?

This part with the thumb-piece has me puzzled, too. I have to think more closely on the idea. Another idea on the cross - it is a division of the whole into 4 parts - perhaps symbolising the elements which the animals represent. I do feel the whole poem mimics the 'formula' of the 'universal pattern idea' of the poem - the orderly way the universe is predestined, or designed by pattern and by mathematical significance.

The 'threes and fours and twelves' is explained extensively in L's "Apogalypse". Three times four is twelve. Two times 5 is 10, two halves of a whole. Then divide again, as in the cross and you have 4 parts. Maybe you can get a copy from your library of his "Apogalypse" or if you're patient, I can send you those pages, if I successfully scan the copy I have. I want to scan the entire book (to keep as reference), but last night I tried one page and I had to do a lot of fixing of the text. It translated poorly to my 'Word' program for some reason, has an odd type style. I want to copy the book, but might end up photo copying it; that will take a lot of ink - 125 pages. The book is rare and hard to come by and on Amazon it is quite expensive for a used copy.:( The book may be strange, as Virgil said, but it is fascinating. Just the 'numerology' part had me captivated.

Virgil

07-15-2007, 05:28 PM

Wow, ktd and Janine - Those two last posts of your are excellent. Kudos.

Glad you agree with these ideas. They are Lawrence's of course but I do believe the universe is ordered and runs by a system. I don't know if this eliminated the whole idea of evolution since L was very aware of Darwin's studies on the subject. Lawrence did feel the connectiveness of all creation. I think in the final line of this poem I can now see the entire them of the poem in thest lines:

I agree with all, that the pattern is emblematic for the universal order and connected to its system. I don't think, ktd, that it means that Lawrence doesn't believe in Darwin. I don't know whether he does or doesn't, but evolution could have been a means of the universe's system.

I have a question. If you look on the various tortoise photos, where is the keystone L is referring to?
I would say the top "stone" of the shell pattern is the keystone for each stripe. So for each stripe across there is a keystone. I could be wrong.

Apparently, as Virgil mentioned in his post, these poems were written when Lawrence was in Italy. So I suppose L's tortoise was Italian.;) Hear that Virgil...:lol:
Are Italian tortoises any different than others? :lol: Well, we Italians are different. ;)

This part with the thumb-piece has me puzzled, too. I have to think more closely on the idea. Another idea on the cross - it is a division of the whole into 4 parts - perhaps symbolising the elements which the animals represent. I do feel the whole poem mimics the 'formula' of the 'universal pattern idea' of the poem - the orderly way the universe is predestined, or designed by pattern and by mathematical significance.
This is true, the cross divides into four quadrants. But I have read elsewhere (I believe in Twilight In Italy, look in "The Crucifix Across The Mountains") that Lawrence sees a cross as splitting things into two. The cross beam divides the pole into two. Divides the crucified into an upper half and lower. Perhaps he simultaneously means both divide into two and four. :idea:

The 'threes and fours and twelves' is explained extensively in L's "Apogalypse". Three time four is twelve. Maybe you can get a copy from your library or if you're patient, I can send you those pages, if I successfully scan the copy I have. I want to scan the entire book (to keep as reference), but last night I tried one page and I had to do a lot of fixing of the text. It translated poorly to my 'Word' program for some reason, has an odd type style. I want to copy the book, but might end up photo copying it; that will take a lot of ink - 125 pages. The book is rare and hard to come by and on Amazon it is quite expensive for a used copy.:(
I should be lucky to have a copy. I have a paperback, put out Penguin, last published in 1976. Price on the book says $7.95. Oh and Janine, it is spelled "Apocalypse" not "Apogalypse." Why are you spelling it such?

Janine

07-15-2007, 05:43 PM

Wow, ktd and Janine - Those two last posts of your are excellent. Kudos.
So what did you think - we were just "pretty faces?" :lol: Thanks for you compliments.
ktd really got me started on my post. Good points, ktd! simulated me to think harder; now my poor brain aches.:eek2:

I agree with all, that the pattern is emblematic for the universal order and connected to its system. I don't think, ktd, that it means that Lawrence doesn't believe in Darwin. I don't know whether he does or doesn't, but evolution could have been a means of the universe's system.

Agreed.

I would say the top "stone" of the shell pattern is the keystone for each stripe. So for each stripe across there is a keystone. I could be wrong.

Virgil,I will have to check out the photos again. I just could not see it. Maybe now I will. What do you consider the stripes anyway? Also what exactly does a keystone mean. I meant to look that one up. You would think I would know it being an artist and studied architecture. My brain is snoozing right now.

Apparently, as Virgil mentioned in his post, these poems were written when Lawrence was in Italy. So I suppose L's tortoise was Italian.;) Hear that Virgil...:lol:
Are Italian tortoises any different than others? :lol: Well, we Italians are different. ;)
Yeah, different - that is for sure! Don't we know that. Well, perhaps you're more connected to the universe than we are. ;) or in outerspace :lol: Take your pick!

This is true, the cross divides into four quadrants. But I have read elsewhere (I believe in Twilight In Italy, look in "The Crucifix Across The Mountains") that Lawrence sees a cross as splitting things into two. The cross beam divides the pole into two. Divides the crucified into an upper half and lower. Perhaps he simultaneously means both divide into two and four. :idea:
Yes, I read this also in "Twilight in Italy." in fact as I was writing this part of my post, I was thinking about Lawrence's trek through those mountains and all the crosses. When did he write TII? I will have to go look it up. Maybe he had crosses on the brain then. That is right - he did see them splitting in two halves. Well, that would mimic parts of the poem with the divisions he makes. Two divisions would be 4 - correct.

I should be lucky to have a copy. I have a paperback, put out Penguin, last published in 1976. Price on the book says $7.95. Oh and Janine, it is spelled "Apocalypse" not "Apogalypse." Why are you spelling it such?

You are lucky. It sells with other writings, used, for about $30. Forget it; I will copy it.
Why am I spelling it wrong? Answer is: several reasons - I can't spell worth a darn and I glanced at the book and can't see worth a darn, either (called old age and bifocals!):lol:
...Ugh:( ...now I will have to go back and correct all those spellings, or I will look like a total dunce to everyone.

ktd222

07-15-2007, 08:03 PM

I did a little reseach on Lawrence's Tortoise poems and I wanted to share it with you. The Tortoise poems are a sequence of six poems that Lawrence wrote and first published as a small bookl called Tortoise (1921) and then incoproated into a much larger book of poems called Birds, Beasts and Flowers (1923). The Tortoise poems were actually written in September of 1920 while Lawrence was staying alone in Florence, Italy. The six poems are called "Baby Tortoise," "Tortoise Shell," "Tortoise Family Connections," "Lui Et Elle," "Tortoise Gallantry," and "Tortoise Shout." The movement of the poems goes from birth to adulthood to death. Thy span the life cycle.

That’s great information Virgil! It really puts the two tortoise poems we read into context. So now that we’ve got a good look at this baby tortoise I wonder what will come next? It is pretty unfathomable to think of framing the progression of my poems before writing them. I wonder which came first, the chicken or the egg? No, I’m just kidding…I wonder if Lawrence had the progression worked out before writing these poems.

Here is a link to some more tortoise photos - these are much different than what ktd posted. Maybe these are the common garden variety :lol:

This might come out huge, I tried to reduce them with no luck in the photo program - sorry if it is a large photo.
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p70/sealace/TortoiseShell.jpg

No, the only difference is the turtles in the picture I posted had been butchered, cleaned, and waxed

Janine

07-15-2007, 10:00 PM

That’s great information Virgil! It really puts the two tortoise poems we read into context. So now that we’ve got a good look at this baby tortoise I wonder what will come next? It is pretty unfathomable to think of framing the progression of my poems before writing them. I wonder which came first, the chicken or the egg? No, I’m just kidding…I wonder if Lawrence had the progression worked out before writing these poems.

Interesting question - which came first his framing, conception, or the poems? humm... Knowing L's work and the way he worked, he probably worked them out together somehow or envisioned them first or rewrote until they took on the stages of life. What a novel concept to envision and then write in this manner.

No, the only difference is the turtles in the picture I posted had been butchered, cleaned, and waxed Yes, it should be interesting to see the next poem. I have it copied and ready to post when we finish up this one.

ouuu...that is sad. I thought your turtles were alive. *Duh, then where are the heads, tails, feet, Janine?* Of course, I am a hypocrite since I do love snapper soup, but those snappers are mean and rather ugly. Hard to believe these guys in your photo once looked like mine, after the whole preserving process. I don't detect any overlapping in the shells, though. I imagine the patterns on the shells would come out when wet, like in seashells. Interesting.

ktd222

07-16-2007, 04:34 PM

Glad you agree with these ideas. They are Lawrence's of course, but I do believe the universe is ordered and runs by a system. I don't know if this eliminated the whole idea of 'evolution', since L was very aware of Darwin's studies on the subject. Lawrence did feel the connectiveness of all creation. I think in the final line of this poem, I can now see the entire theme of the poem in these lines:

Here we see the connection summed up - the small creature to the larger whole of all creation. Lawrence believed in the connection of the individual with the collective in all of life.

Yes, you’d divulged to me this little nugget of truth regarding Lawrence and evolution a month or two ago;:nod: but gosh, it is so hard for me to see evolution and a “planned” process coexisting in this poem. I’ll make an effort for you and Virgil though.:D

I think Virgil recognized the importance of this last stanza in identifying the theme of this poem first. So thank you Virgil. But you have summed it up beautifully, Janine.

I will try and expand on your comments. Look at the word “manifold.” In the context of this stanza the word “manifold” is not defined, that is there’s no number identifying a degree of complexity involved in creating an individual creature. Now, just two stanzas before is a line that read “through his five-fold complex-nature.” Here we are told the exact degree of what made this tortoise. And throughout the poem we are given mathematical hints, a coefficient factor of sorts, as to how life in this world varies. However complex creatures become, they do so by a factor of five. Wow!!! In the beginning was the equation, something containable we can write out, seemingly rigid, to define the way in which all organisms arise; but the equation does not have one single answer, or two or three. The application of this equation results in that which is uncontainable, because it produces limitless answers.

I don't know exactly. Perhaps. It is an interesting theory. I read recently that Lawrence stated that sometimes an image will just suggest to us things ingrained in our subconscious. I would think this image of a cross, as soon as he says it in the first lines, brings to mind religious connotations and significance. What that means to Lawrence I am not quite sure. I am still pondering that part. But the fact that he does repeat cross so often, makes me long to know the full significance of the word in the way he is using it here.

I have a question. If you look on the various tortoise photos, where is the keystone L is referring to?

Plus he adds in “The Lord” towards the end of the poem. I mean, with respect to the rest of the poem doesn’t it seem “The Cross” represents more than just a belief, a way to live this life? Doesn’t Lawrence show that the basic building block of all organisms is the Cross?

I think Virgil said it, so I would like to reiterate that the keystone is the segment at which the arch formed by segments divides into halves. It is also worth noting that the keystone, as defined online is a wedge-shaped piece, similarly as the tortoise head is described as a “wedge-balancing head.”

The 'threes and fours and twelves' is explained extensively in L's "Apogalypse". Three times four is twelve.

This would have made sense if he said “threes and fours is twelves…” or something to that affect.

Two times 5 is 10, two halves of a whole. Then divide again, as in the cross and you have 4 parts. Maybe you can get a copy from your library of his "Apogalypse" or if you're patient, I can send you those pages, if I successfully scan the copy I have. I want to scan the entire book (to keep as reference), but last night I tried one page and I had to do a lot of fixing of the text. It translated poorly to my 'Word' program for some reason, has an odd type style. I want to copy the book, but might end up photo copying it; that will take a lot of ink - 125 pages. The book is rare and hard to come by and on Amazon it is quite expensive for a used copy.:( The book may be strange, as Virgil said, but it is fascinating. Just the 'numerology' part had me captivated.

This part I can grasp. No thank you, about the book. But I would like to hear what you thought about it when you’re done reading it.:blush: :D Send me a PM. Sorry, I’m just being lazy.

Janine

07-16-2007, 10:11 PM

Good post ktd! You have me thinking on a number of things. I will answer tomorrow, unless Virgil beats me to it. I will add something anyway, even if he does post first. I have to think about several things you wrote; I am too tired now to write anymore on Lit Net.

Good news is that today I found a copy of "Apocalypse" on Amazon at a reasonable price and ordered it, so now I don't have to scan the whole book. Yeah!

I am trying to track down other books I need for research, etc. I also found the entire text for "Kangaroo" online, Virgil. Is that fortunate or what? And the file is downloadable and free so I was thrilled to find it.

Virgil

07-16-2007, 10:15 PM

Good news is that today I found a copy of "Apocalypse" on Amazon at a reasonable price and ordered it, so now I don't have to scan the whole book. Yeah!

I am trying to track down other books I need for research, etc. I also found the entire text for "Kangaroo" online, Virgil. Is that fortunate or what? And the file is downloadable and free so I was thrilled to find it.

You had a good day then Janine. :thumbs_up I'll still look for a traditional text of Kangaroo for you.

Janine

07-17-2007, 02:46 AM

You had a good day then Janine. :thumbs_up I'll still look for a traditional text of Kangaroo for you.

Athough I did not sleep well last night, I don't feel as badly as yesterday - very odd....and I should definitely be in bed by now, don't you think?!
Anyway, I was researching Lawrence online and dug up so many interesting things like great pictures and an article about his ranch and Mabel Dodge Luhan's house - all kinds of wonderful photos....all in living color. I was stunned by the scenery. I have to post some somewhere or the address of the site. I also found tons of other stuff by just being patient and wading through a lot of material.
I found another short book I wanted, not Lawrence. I also found some good commentary on L's poems, stories, etc. Yikes, I did not realise there is so much online about Lawrence. Glad I found out there is such extensive interest.

Virgil, thanks for looking for "Kangaroo" anyway in book form. Would be great if you find it. I am trying to get a good price on "Mornings in New Mexico" but so far I have not seen a good seller but one will pop up eventually; I keep it in my wish list on Amazon. Just trying to acquire the books I have not read yet.

Well, sorry ktd, to get off the beaten path here but I will be back tomorrow to post something in answer to your great post on "Tortoise Shell."

Janine

07-18-2007, 12:21 AM

ktd, too tired out now. I will have to delay till I can get to your posts - soon - I promise. Sorry, J

ktd222

07-19-2007, 02:32 AM

My post must be so brilliant that it is leaving people speechless:lol:

Virgil

07-19-2007, 06:51 AM

Perhaps it's time for the next poem if we are going to study the series.

Janine

07-19-2007, 02:40 PM

My post must be so brilliant that it is leaving people speechless

:lol: ktd, it is not that...not 'speechless', just 'timeless'. Your post certainly is 'brilliant', but I just have had no time to get back to this thread. I have been feeling guilty about making you wait so long, but I put it top of my long list today - truly I did....also, now... since, as Virgil said:

Perhaps it's time for the next poem if we are going to study the series.

...and I surely agree. In fact, I just pulled up my Microsoft Word file with the poem copied in it, so I can post it right after I address this 'brilliant' post of yours ktd! So here goes:

Yes, you’d divulged to me this little nugget of truth regarding Lawrence and evolution a month or two ago;:nod: but gosh, it is so hard for me to see evolution and a “planned” process coexisting in this poem. I’ll make an effort for you and Virgil though.:D

I like the way you call it a 'nugget of truth'. That is good ktd; I think I probably have a few nuggets rattling around in my skull about L by now!;) I don't think, that one has to eliminate the whole idea of 'evolution' to accept that the universe is ordered and patterned. One only needs to see the patterns on such things as butterflies, tortoises, turtles, snakes, sea-life to acknowledge this patterning and orderliness. I would therefore conclude that all of nature (and Lawrence was a great observer of nature and plants and botany, etc.) falls into a kind of order, and therefore he felt it all co-existed and was part of a universal plan. Does the theory of evolution eliminate this idea? I don't feel it does, but maybe you would disagree on that point.

I think Virgil recognized the importance of this last stanza in identifying the theme of this poem first. So thank you Virgil. But you have summed it up beautifully, Janine.

So be it-- Virgil can have all the credit.;) Thanks for your compliment on my summing it up beautifully. I might have had a moment of 'brilliance' myself that day.:)

I will try and expand on your comments. Look at the word “manifold.” In the context of this stanza the word “manifold” is not defined, that is there’s no number identifying a degree of complexity involved in creating an individual creature. Now, just two stanzas before is a line that read “through his five-fold complex-nature.” Here we are told the exact degree of what made this tortoise. And throughout the poem we are given mathematical hints, a coefficient factor of sorts, as to how life in this world varies. However complex creatures become, they do so by a factor of five. Wow!!! In the beginning was the equation, something containable we can write out, seemingly rigid, to define the way in which all organisms arise; but the equation does not have one single answer, or two or three. The application of this equation results in that which is uncontainable, because it produces limitless answers.

ktd, not sure this is not just Lawrence's concept of the ordered universe but of course he probably knew more about nature than I do and he apparently studied these equations and number references. So when you say: 'However complex creatures become, they do so by a factor of five. Wow!!!' do you feel that is Lawrence's concept or actually the truth? I think Lawrence was pretty amazing

Plus he adds in “The Lord” towards the end of the poem. I mean, with respect to the rest of the poem doesn’t it seem “The Cross” represents more than just a belief, a way to live this life? Doesn’t Lawrence show that the basic building block of all organisms is the Cross?

Yes, he does say "The Lord" and I am not sure at this point in Lawrence's life what his concept of 'The Lord' would be; for this seemed to change over time for him personally. The cross is very reminescent, as Virgil already stated, of the time L spent in Italy and wrote about it in his travel books. There were many crosses mentioned there up on the mountain roads. Not sure of your last question but think it is a good concept and one to consider.

I think Virgil said it, so I would like to reiterate that the keystone is the segment at which the arch formed by segments divides into halves. It is also worth noting that the keystone, as defined online is a wedge-shaped piece, similarly as the tortoise head is described as a “wedge-balancing head.”

That is a good explanation and I like the idea or correlation of the tortoise head to the keystone shape, in your last statement here. Very good analysis!:thumbs_up

This would have made sense if he said “threes and fours is twelves…” or something to that affect.

Well, this actually is right from his "Apocalypse book", so he must know what it means. As manolia always tells me we might not be able to figure it all out. Only by asking L himself or studying with scholars for years could we come close I suppose. I do think this numbering system ties in with the Apocalypse in the Bible and Revelations.

This part I can grasp. No thank you, about the book. But I would like to hear what you thought about it when you’re done reading it.:blush: :D Send me a PM. Sorry, I’m just being lazy.

That is ok, you can be lazy, ktd. I have the urge myself to be lazy now -- I am kind of burned out from last month and so much activity. Thought this month would be easier but it is active too. Maybe next month on here I will take a long overdue break. I ordered the book online the other day so I don't need to copy/scan it. Glad you could grasp what I had written about it.

Janine

07-19-2007, 02:53 PM

Here is the next Tortoise poem. It is a longer one and called:

TORTOISE FAMILY CONNECTIONS

by: D.H. Lawrence (1885-1930)

ON he goes, the little one,
Bud of the universe,
Pediment of life.

Setting off somewhere, apparently.
Whither away, brisk egg?

His mother deposited him on the soil as if he were no more than droppings,
And now he scuffles tinily past her as if she were an old rusty tin.

A mere obstacle,
He veers round the slow great mound of her--
Tortoises always foresee obstacles.

It is no use my saying to him in an emotional voice:
"This is your Mother, she laid you when you were an egg."

He does not even trouble to answer: "Woman, what have I to do with thee?"
He wearily looks the other way,
And she even more wearily looks another way still,
Each with the utmost apathy,
Incognizant,
Unaware,
Nothing.

As for papa,
He snaps when I offer him his offspring,
Just as he snaps when I poke a bit of stick at him,
Because he is irascible this morning, an irascible tortoise
Being touched with love, and devoid of fatherliness.

Father and mother,
And three little brothers,
And all rambling aimless, like little perambulating pebbles scattered in the garden,
Not knowing each other from bits of earth or old tins.

Except that papa and mama are old acquaintances, of course,
But family feeling there is none, not even the beginnings.

Fatherless, motherless, brotherless, sisterless
Little tortoise.

Row on then, small pebble,
Over the clods of the autumn, wind-chilled sunshine,
Young gayety.

Does he look for a companion?

No, no, don't think it.
He doesn't know he is alone;
Isolation is his birthright,
This atom.

To row forward, and reach himself tall on spiny toes,
To travel, to burrow into a little loose earth, afraid of the night,
To crop a little substance,
To move, and to be quite sure that he is moving:
Basta!

To be a tortoise!
Think of it, in a garden of inert clods
A brisk, brindled little tortoise, all to himself--
Crœsus!

In a garden of pebbles and insects,
Slow, and unquestioned,
And inordinately there, O stoic!
Wandering in the slow triumph of his own existence,
Ringing the soundless bell of his presence in chaos,
And biting the frail grass arrogantly,
Decidedly arrogantly.

"Tortoise Family Connections" is reprinted from Tortoises. D.H. Lawrence. New York: Thomas Seltzer, 1921

Virgil

07-19-2007, 03:20 PM

Plus he adds in “The Lord” towards the end of the poem. I mean, with respect to the rest of the poem doesn’t it seem “The Cross” represents more than just a belief, a way to live this life? Doesn’t Lawrence show that the basic building block of all organisms is the Cross?

ktd, I know by just looking at those references in this poem, you might be led to think that Lawrence was a traditional Christian, but he was not. He evolved to be quite paganesk. As Janine can tell you from reading Apocalypse, he believed that myths had an incredible power over people and influenced their subconscious. He felt that the Christ myth which had taken over the western world was incomplete and actually deleterious to society. In one of his last works of fiction, perhpas it was the last, he wrote The Man Who Died, a short novel rewriting the Christ resurrection story and marrying it to the Osirus/Isis myth. It is a remarkable work and I highly recommend it. Here's a little something on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Escaped_****. They also give you a little of chapter one here on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Man-Who-Died-D-H-Lawrence/dp/0880014296

Just to let people know, I will be going on vacation tomorrow and will not be home until the 28th. I don't think I will be able to post anything on the new poem until then.

Janine

07-19-2007, 03:49 PM

I will have to check out that link, Virgil. Thanks! I did read 'The Man Who Died' long ago. I will have to re-read it soon; I am sure it will be with a new perspective on L and his ideas. I
don't know if L is actually agreeing with myths and other references in his "Apocalypse" book - we could have a whole debate just on that book! I think he is basically pointing out the flaws or the origins in the writing of Revelations and how it was altered over time by the church and others. He is saying that the work, which many Christians feel baffled about, yet will accept verbatim, is actually based on pagan origins and even numerology and astrological/astronomical calculations and mythical images. It is basically a huge 'pot of potpouri' in the final anaylsis and in the closing chapters of "Apocalypse", he is setting forth his own personal ideas/theology on the human race and the universe and what will come to be futuristically. In many ways, Lawrence was quite prophetic, as was his good friend, Audox Huxley. I don't think that "Apocalypse" is an easy book to interpret. I feel I need to read it again sometime soon. If nothing else, it is definitely intriguing.

Virgil, hi ....so you will be gone 10 days on vacation? How nice for you! I hope you have a great time!!! Don't even think about Lit Net, when you are away - just have fun! Relax.....enjoy the CA sun and scenery and chill out.

We won't get too ahead on this poem and you can pick it up easily when you get back....we move at a tortoise's pace.....:lol:

ktd222

07-20-2007, 04:42 PM

I don't think, that one has to eliminate the whole idea of 'evolution' to accept that the universe is ordered and patterned. One only needs to see the patterns on such things as butterflies, tortoises, turtles, snakes, sea-life to acknowledge this patterning and orderliness. I would therefore conclude that all of nature (and Lawrence was a great observer of nature and plants and botany, etc.) falls into a kind of order, and therefore he felt it all co-existed and was part of a universal plan. Does the theory of evolution eliminate this idea? I don't feel it does, but maybe you would disagree on that point.

In this poem, yes, I’m favoring the role of a “planned” process over evolution. I think that the order we see developing in this poem has less to do evolution. The patterns that we do see in the poem arose from a preset equation set by The Lord. Seeing patterns is one thing, attributing it to the Lord rather than the affects of earthly situations is another.

ktd, not sure this is not just Lawrence's concept of the ordered universe but of course he probably knew more about nature than I do and he apparently studied these equations and number references. So when you say: 'However complex creatures become, they do so by a factor of five. Wow!!!' do you feel that is Lawrence's concept or actually the truth? I think Lawrence was pretty amazing

I feel this is Lawrence’s belief, and therefore is his truth. I don’t think it really matters whether this is an original concept or not, that is the concept conveyed in this poem. I don’t think it is the universal truth, but I still like the idea.

Yes, he does say "The Lord" and I am not sure at this point in Lawrence's life what his concept of 'The Lord' would be; for this seemed to change over time for him personally. The cross is very reminescent, as Virgil already stated, of the time L spent in Italy and wrote about it in his travel books. There were many crosses mentioned there up on the mountain roads. Not sure of your last question but think it is a good concept and one to consider.

There are other meanings with reference to Lord and the Cross? A poem should almost wholly be self-explanatory without needing one to do research on parts of the poem. I feel like I recognized what Lawrence was trying to achieve in that poem, and I’m satisfied with what I saw.

Well, this actually is right from his "Apocalypse book", so he must know what it means. As manolia always tells me we might not be able to figure it all out. Only by asking L himself or studying with scholars for years could we come close I suppose. I do think this numbering system ties in with the Apocalypse in the Bible and Revelations.

I think this goes for almost every poem written, whether the author is established or not.

I’m going to take a break, Janine. Feel free to continue the discussion without me; don’t feel bad about do so. I’ll come back to the discussion soon…if you are still discussing them.

Janine

07-20-2007, 05:48 PM

Hi ktd, let me say firstly, I need a break, too...I am feeling quite exhausted, even bug-eyed :eek: by now with all this computer work/ other active threads. So let us go slowly, at a 'tortoise's pace', as I said before.
We will consider this one a slow, mellow 'summer' discussion so pop in, when and IF you can. These poems are real mind benders, as all Lawrence's work is, so it gets quite exhausting. I have enjoyed all your insightful posts, so enjoy your break, you deserve it...you did a fine job!:thumbs_up

I will go slowly with this one and Virgil is on vacation, so let's just consider this our vacation, as well. I have not even read the poem yet. I merely posted it. If you miss this poem there are others but really we will do this one super slow so you might still be able to participate -- don't worry about it and have a nice, relaxing break!

In this poem, yes, I’m favoring the role of a “planned” process over evolution. I think that the order we see developing in this poem has less to do evolution. The patterns that we do see in the poem arose from a preset equation set by The Lord. Seeing patterns is one thing, attributing it to the Lord rather than the affects of earthly situations is another.

I don't know that much about evolution and in fact I would like to read Darwin's book and may someday in the near future. Therefore I agree with what you say here. I think that if we over analysis the poem it will loose it's charm and loveliness. I think Lawrence merely observed the patterns and thought on them, pondering the idea of patterning in the universe and how all creatures and the world/universe are connected in this way.

I feel this is Lawrence’s belief, and therefore is his truth. I don’t think it really matters whether this is an original concept or not, that is the concept conveyed in this poem. I don’t think it is the universal truth, but I still like the idea.

I feel this way, too; I do think it is a wonderful observation and an astounding idea!

There are other meanings with reference to Lord and the Cross? A poem should almost wholly be self-explanatory without needing one to do research on parts of the poem. I feel like I recognized what Lawrence was trying to achieve in that poem, and I’m satisfied with what I saw.

Perhaps so but with Lawrence, when one knows things about his other philosophies/ideas it is hard to disregard them entirely. I think it is fine to take the poem as it is and for each person to interpret it in their own mind and personally, as to what it means to them. You are right in that a poem should stand alone and be self-explanatory. I think this poem very well does that, don't you? It is just that you must excuse Virgil and I since we have some prior knowledge of Lawrence's use of crosses and what they personally meant to him. Also the knowledge is in our minds of just how Lawrence interpreted religion. This poem may be early when Lawrence still believed in one supreme God. I do not know but the poem does seem to indicate that and whatever one wants to believe is perfectly correct and acceptable. This poem is meaningful to each person in a different way.

I think this goes for almost every poem written, whether the author is established or not.

I agree.

I’m going to take a break, Janine. Feel free to continue the discussion without me; don’t feel bad about do so. I’ll come back to the discussion soon…if you are still discussing them.

Enjoy your break! :) ~ Janine

ktd222

07-20-2007, 06:24 PM

Thanks Janine.:) I can't imagine being part of so many discussions simultaneously. It has got to be difficult to keep up. I don't know how you do it. I really enjoyed your posts as well. It’s not too often I can get into a discussion about poetry and feel like others are putting in the same effort to analyze, and not just comment on the poem. I’ll still be around, but I’ll be trying to predict who’s next to post.:lol:

Janine

07-20-2007, 06:47 PM

Hahaha! guess you were right! :lol:

Thanks, ktd, and it has been very difficult these past months! It is good to be appreciated and nice to have had a 'real' and lively discussion; not just a 'review' after someone reads the material, as to whether they 'like it' or 'dislike it'. Many times that seems to be the case. We are here to discuss and not to complain, don't you agree? One of my pet peeves, I am afraid. Anyway, enjoy the time off. Happy you suggested this thread; it is a good one. Since I had bought the book of "Collected Poems" it is a good start for me and I never considered his 'animal/reptile' poems so great and now I see so much more to them. Thanks for opening my eyes to them!

Eileen wu

09-19-2007, 09:26 PM

The discussion about the Tortoise poem is really wonderful! I'm hoping for more about D.H.Lawrence's animal poems. Thank you!
Eileen

Virgil

09-19-2007, 09:46 PM

The discussion about the Tortoise poem is really wonderful! I'm hoping for more about D.H.Lawrence's animal poems. Thank you!
Eileen

On behalf of everyone who participated in this discussion, thank you Eileen. I hope to resume and complete the discussion on Lawrence's Tortoise poems. Perhaps shortly. Hopefully you can join us too.

Janine

09-20-2007, 01:39 PM

The discussion about the Tortoise poem is really wonderful! I'm hoping for more about D.H.Lawrence's animal poems. Thank you!
Eileen

Hi Eileen, so glad to see a new face here. The T poem discussions were put 'on hold' since one person needed a break and then a break sounded good to the other participants at the time. I think we were still on the poem - TORTOISE FAMILY CONNECTIONS - when we abandoned it and we should continue with that I believe; what do you think, Virgil? It is a good poem. I think there are a few more Tortoise poems in the series and as you said other animal poems, these would be of great interest, as well. Thank you, for your compliments on our discussion. It was so much fun - these poems were more interesting than I first perceived them to be. I can't wait to discuss more of them.

I hope that you stay around - there are other discussions on D.H. Lawrence presently going on - or will be soon - Lawrence Short Stories will start up again in October - again... everyone needed a short break. Several of us plan on reading "Sons and Lovers" and discussing it - possibly in October, also, or if not then, in Novemeber. I am a big enthusiast of Lawrence's - you could not tell, right? ;) Virgil shares this mutual interest. We recently did read/discuss in depth Lawrence's fine novel "Women in Love". You might be interested in checking out that thread - it may be a few pages back since it is not active presently. It was a fine discussion.

Bye the way - welcome to Literature Network Forums! You will love the place I am sure. Everyone is so nice here and friendly and helpful.

blazeofglory

09-22-2007, 02:11 AM

Eileen wu

09-23-2007, 12:05 AM

Thank you for being so helpful in understanding the tortoise poems. Surely I'll
stay around and hopefully I can join in your discussion sometime I have more questions than comments . You know I need do more reading about D. H. Lawrence,my favourite poet.
Eileen

Janine

09-23-2007, 11:40 PM

This is really one of the poems I am really moved by, and unquestionably Lawrence is a poet of great quality. He is a man of the flesh and of the blood, and what I really appreciate of him is the way he can enter the very spirit of the thing he writes about.

I really get swayed by his poems and in fact get lost in a world of him, and engrossingly indeed. I read yesterday his two poems Piano and the Baby Tortoise. About Piano I have already wrote about the comment of it.

When I read this poem I felt the poet entered the tortoise or he got possessed of the tortoise.

And reading your predilection for him really moved me.

Hi blazeofglory, Yes, this is a truly great poem. When I first read it I did not know just how much so and now I love 'Baby Tortoise'; we had a good discussion on that poem. Then with the next poem, which points out the significance of the patterns on the turtle's shell, we were able to bring up a world of possibilities for discussion. 'Baby Tortoise' is very 'touching' and made me think of Lawrence's own life struggles...the idea of 'an against all odds survival'. I felt also that Lawrence got right into the shell and this little being (the newly hatched turtle) and absolutely shared his feelings while describing him and his struggle for life. This is what makes the poem so great - it is so personal to Lawrence.
blaze, I did read your insightful comments on the Piano poem. I will post a comment myself there soon.

Hello again Eileen, You are quite welcome for any help we have provided or insight. I love Lawrence and he is my favorite author or at least one of them. I have read nearly all he has written, but I need to read all of his poems. I love some of them very much so. I am glad you plan to stay around for more discussions and feel free always to ask questions. This is how we all learn, isn't it? It is good to have you aboard! :)

Janine

08-12-2008, 04:55 PM

Posting in here now to assure this thread stays open. Lately I have been thinking about this thread and wanted to revive it. There are more of the Tortoise poems to discuss. Anytime is great with me. I will try posting the next one soon.

Virgil

08-12-2008, 08:09 PM

What ever happened to KTD? She was such a nice young lady. I noticed she hasn't been on since early March. I miss her. :(

Dark Muse

08-12-2008, 08:10 PM

This sounds like it could be interesting, I might have to peek around this thread

Janine

08-12-2008, 09:05 PM

DM, glad to see you here and taking an interest. These poems make for really interesting discussions; you should check back and read some. I think there are 8 in the set Lawrence wrote, but don't quote me on that. I know that each one represents a different period in life - such as infant, child, adolescent and so forth. I forget just how many we have discussed so far; I will have to check on that.

Yes, Virgil, a long while back she just announced she was taking a break and she never returned. I guess she got bored discussing these poems but I found them fascinating. It was her idea to begin with, remember. I imagine that people do get busy with real life.

Dark Muse

08-12-2008, 09:08 PM

Hehe I am just glad you are not tired of seeing me around yet :D

Janine

08-12-2008, 10:27 PM

You kidding? I got used to you and your weird sense of humor, DM. Besides we made a good Lawrence follower out of you. Now I find your quirpy tastes amusing and we get along fine; maybe we even bonded after some strange occurances awhile back where others were chomping at the bit in another L thread; I am sure you get my drift ;) At anyrate, I think these poems are worthy of our attention and reviving them. Give me a day or so to decide where we left off.

Dark Muse

08-12-2008, 10:29 PM

Hehe yes, we do not always agree but we do get along

Janine

08-13-2008, 12:43 AM

DM, that sounds like the lyric to a song...hehehe.

Dark Muse

08-13-2008, 12:48 AM

Hehe..

Janine

08-13-2008, 01:15 AM

I think we finally learned to laugh our differences off, don't you?

Dark Muse

08-13-2008, 01:23 AM

I do like to argue, but I never really took any of it seriously or personally

Janine

08-13-2008, 01:26 AM

I do like to argue, but I never really took any of it seriously or personally

That is the spirit; real fair sportsmanship. It is getting late again, DM, I think I am fading and will call it a night.:yawnb:I am sitting here with one eye closed.;) Nighty night!

Dark Muse

08-13-2008, 02:02 AM

Goodnight

Janine

08-14-2008, 03:14 PM

I am reposting this for all our benefit:

Originally Posted by Virgil
I did a little reseach on Lawrence's Tortoise poems and I wanted to share it with you. The Tortoise poems are a sequence of six poems that Lawrence wrote and first published as a small bookl called Tortoise (1921) and then incoproated into a much larger book of poems called Birds, Beasts and Flowers (1923). The Tortoise poems were actually written in September of 1920 while Lawrence was staying alone in Florence, Italy. The six poems are called "Baby Tortoise," "Tortoise Shell," "Tortoise Family Connections," "Lui Et Elle," "Tortoise Gallantry," and "Tortoise Shout." The movement of the poems goes from birth to adulthood to death. Thy span the life cycle.

Ok, I just researched back to the last poem we did. It was "Tortoise Family Connections." So now I see that there are 3 more poems left that we had not yet discussed. We can start with "Lui Et Elle," but it might benefit us all to review the others that preceeded this poem, by simply reading them. I will make a more formal announcement that this is the poem to be discussed. What do you think everyone?

Virgil

08-14-2008, 03:42 PM

Janine

08-14-2008, 03:49 PM

Perhaps we should do the next one now Janine. It might make sense to get one under our belt before we do a short story. I doubt ktd is coming back shortly, if at all. Were we going in poem sequence or were you selecting them at random?

Virgil, Yes, I think we can assume that ktd is not coming back; is she even on the forum lately? I haven't seen her for ages. So what do you mean when you say - were we going in poem sequence or were we you selecting them at random? I was picking the next poem in the Tortoise sequence entitled "Lui Et Elle."

I already posted in the LSS thread that we would start the story on Monday. You still want me to pick one, right? Also, we have a new comer there; that is great news.

How bout we start this poem on Monday, also? I will formally announce it then. We can flip back and forth between the two threads, can't we? We don't have to post everyday either, not in this one, anyway.

Virgil

08-14-2008, 04:08 PM

Sounds good. Monday is perfect.

Janine

08-14-2008, 04:16 PM

Sounds good. Monday is perfect.

Good! I just read the poem online. It is a long one; so I will post it in its entirity and then later in segments as we go along. I have a first impression about the poem already. Do you know, Virgil, what the title translates to from the French? You can find the poem here - http://www.poetry-archive.com/l/lui_et_elle.html

Here is the entire poem:

LUI ET ELLE
by: D.H. Lawrence (1885-1930)

SHE is large and matronly
And rather dirty,
A little sardonic-looking, as if domesticity had driven her to it.
Though what she does, except lay four eggs at random in the garden once a year
And put up with her husband,
I don't know.

She likes to eat.
She hurries up, striding reared on long uncanny legs,
When food is going.
Oh yes, she can make haste when she likes.

She snaps the soft bread from my hand in great mouthfuls,
Opening her rather pretty wedge of an iron, pristine face
Into an enormously wide-beaked mouth
Like sudden curved scissors,
And gulping at more than she can swallow, and working her thick, soft tongue,
And having the bread hanging over her chin.

O Mistress, Mistress,
Reptile mistress,
Your eye is very dark, very bright,
And it never softens
Although you watch.

She knows,
She knows well enough to come for food,
Yet she sees me not;
Her bright eye sees, but not me, not anything,
Sightful, sightless, seeing and visionless,
Reptile mistress.

Taking bread in her curved, gaping, toothless mouth,
She has no qualm when she catches my finger in her steel overlapping gums,
But she hangs on, and my shout and my shrinking are nothing to her,
She does not even know she is nipping me with her curved beak.
Snake-like she draws at my finger, while I drag it in horror away.

Mistress, reptile mistress,
You are almost too large, I am almost frightened.
He is much smaller,
Dapper beside her,
And ridiculously small.

Her laconic eye has an earthy, materialistic look,
His, poor darling, is almost fiery.
His wimple, his blunt-prowed face,
His low forehead, his skinny neck, his long, scaled, striving legs,
So striving, striving,
Are all more delicate than she,

And he has a cruel scar on his shell.
Poor darling, biting at her feet,
Running beside her like a dog, biting her earthy, splay feet,
Nipping her ankles,
Which she drags apathetic away, though without retreating into her shell.
Agelessly silent,
And with a grim, reptile determination,
Cold, voiceless age-after-age behind him, serpents' long obstinacy
Of horizontal persistence.

Little old man
Scuffling beside her, bending down, catching his opportunity,
Parting his steel-trap face, so suddenly, and seizing her scaly ankle,
And hanging grimly on,
Letting go at last as she drags away,
And closing his steel-trap face.
His steel-trap, stoic, ageless, handsome face.
Alas, what a fool he looks in this scuffle.
And how he feels it!

The lonely rambler, the stoic, dignified stalker through chaos,
The immune, the animate,
Enveloped in isolation,
Forerunner.

Now look at him!
Alas, the spear is through the side of his isolation.
His adolescence saw him crucified into sex,
Doomed, in the long crucifixion of desire, to seek his consummation beyond himself.
Divided into passionate duality,
He, so finished and immune, now broken into desirous fragmentariness,
Doomed to make an intolerable fool of himself
In his effort toward completion again.

Poor little earthy house-inhabiting Osiris,
The mysterious bull tore him at adolescence into pieces,
And he must struggle after reconstruction, ignominiously.
And so behold him following the tail
Of that mud-hovel of his slowly-rambling spouse,
Like some unhappy bull at the tail of a cow,
But with more than bovine, grim, earth-dank persistence,

Suddenly seizing the ugly ankle as she stretches out to walk,
Roaming over the sods,
Or, if it happen to show, at her pointed, heavy tail
Beneath the low-dropping back-board of her shell.
Their two shells like doomed boats bumping,
Hers huge, his small;
Their splay feet rambling and rowing like paddles,
And stumbling mixed up in one another,
In the race of love--
Two tortoises,
She huge, he small.

She seems earthily apathetic,
And he has a reptile's awful persistence.
I heard a woman pitying her, pitying the Mère Tortue.
While I, I pity Monsieur.

"He pesters her and torments her," said the woman.
How much more is he pestered and tormented, say I.
What can he do?
He is dumb, he is visionless,
Conceptionless.

His black, sad-lidded eye sees but beholds not
As her earthen mound moves on,
But he catches the folds of vulnerable, leathery skin,
Nail-studded, that shake beneath her shell,
And drags at these with his beak,
Drags and drags and bites,
While she pulls herself free, and rows her dull mound along.

"Lui et Elle" is reprinted from Tortoises. D.H. Lawrence. New York: Thomas Seltzer, 1921.

Dark Muse

08-14-2008, 06:54 PM

Just finished reading the poem and I quite liked it.

Janine

08-14-2008, 07:00 PM

Oh good. Suggestion: you could jot down some notes on passages and what they meant to you or how you interpretted them, anything really - maybe just passages you particularly liked.

Dark Muse

08-14-2008, 07:46 PM

Thanks for the suggestion. I will keep that in mind and maybe take another look at the poem. I know there were a few things I really liked

Janine

08-14-2008, 08:14 PM

Then you will be better prepared when the discussion begins. I think since the poem is a long one, I will post segments of it like we do in the short stories, what do you think?

I think I have to unplug now - thunderstorms once again, darn it!

Janine

08-19-2008, 02:46 PM

This is the first section to discuss the Tortoise poem:

LUI ET ELLE

by: D.H. Lawrence (1885-1930)

SHE is large and matronly
And rather dirty,
A little sardonic-looking, as if domesticity had driven her to it.

Though what she does, except lay four eggs at random in the garden once a year
And put up with her husband,
I don't know.

She likes to eat.
She hurries up, striding reared on long uncanny legs,
When food is going.
Oh yes, she can make haste when she likes.

She snaps the soft bread from my hand in great mouthfuls,
Opening her rather pretty wedge of an iron, pristine face
Into an enormously wide-beaked mouth
Like sudden curved scissors,
And gulping at more than she can swallow, and working her thick, soft tongue,
And having the bread hanging over her chin.

Dark Muse

08-19-2008, 02:58 PM

Dark Muse

08-19-2008, 03:05 PM

First of all, I have to say that over all I found the poem to be quite funny in a lot of ways.

SHE is large and matronly
And rather dirty,
A little sardonic-looking, as if domesticity had driven her to it.

Though what she does, except lay four eggs at random in the garden once a year
And put up with her husband,
I don't know.

These lines here make me think of like a middle-aged housewife who is just stuck in the routine, but isn't truly happy of content any longer.

She snaps the soft bread from my hand in great mouthfuls,
Opening her rather pretty wedge of an iron, pristine face
Into an enormously wide-beaked mouth
Like sudden curved scissors,
And gulping at more than she can swallow, and working her thick, soft tongue,
And having the bread hanging over her chin.

I thought these lines were just hystrical, and the discription is so vivid.

Janine

08-19-2008, 03:44 PM

First of all, I have to say that over all I found the poem to be quite funny in a lot of ways.

These lines here make me think of like a middle-aged housewife who is just stuck in the routine, but isn't truly happy of content any longer.

I thought these lines were just hystrical, and the discription is so vivid.

Yes, DM, I totally agree with the humor in this poem. In fact, the entire time I was reading this I thought - this is describing Lawrence and his wife Frieda perfectly. At least, I have a feeling he was greatly influenced by their now many yr old marrage. I will have to check out the exact date he wrote this, and see if this is true and indeed, he had been married awhile. One can see that between this tortoise pair the 'marriage bliss' has long since departed.

Virgil

08-19-2008, 08:25 PM

Wait, is it "HE is large and matronly" or "She is large and matronly"?

Dark Muse

08-19-2008, 08:37 PM

It is suppose to be She. The S just got left off in Janine's repost, but the original poem says She

Virgil

08-19-2008, 08:52 PM

It is suppose to be She. The S just got left off in Janine's repost, but the original poem says She

Thank God. All of a sdden there I thought Lawrence was into transexualism. :p

Dark Muse

08-19-2008, 08:53 PM

Hahahahaha

Janine

08-19-2008, 09:11 PM

Thank God. All of a sdden there I thought Lawrence was into transexualism. :p

Hahaha:lol: - I did indeed forget the 'S' and just edited and placed it there. Definitely it was "SHE is large and madronly"....hahaha, sounds like Frieda in her late photos, doesn't it? No, don't think L was a transexual although he did write so often of those bright colored stocking; I wonder if he liked them so much he actually did wear them himself when no one was looking? :goof:

Janine

08-20-2008, 07:07 PM

SHE is large and matronly
And rather dirty,
A little sardonic-looking, as if domesticity had driven her to it.

Though what she does, except lay four eggs at random in the garden once a year
And put up with her husband,
I don't know.

This last line particularly made me laugh. He could easily be describing his wife, although she did not lay eggs in the garden,:lol: ...rather this part: "And put up with her husband, I don't know." This line is so much of 'Lawrence' laughing at himself. It is certain, from my biographical research and reading, that Freida, his wife, did indeed 'put up' with a lot while living with the restless and tempermental writer.

She snaps the soft bread from my hand in great mouthfuls,
Opening her rather pretty wedge of an iron, pristine face
Into an enormously wide-beaked mouth
Like sudden curved scissors,
And gulping at more than she can swallow, and working her thick, soft tongue,
And having the bread hanging over her chin.

This part is not too attractive a portrait of the female, but still it is amusing/funny. I like the way he refers again to her wide-beaked mouth. He used that in some of the other tortoise poems. He likes to refer to their mouths as 'beak-like", which is kind of strange but primitive as well, tying the bird kingdom into the reptile kingdom in some obscure but Lawrence way. I like the line
"pretty wedge of an iron, pristine face" because it is curious to me how he puts these odd words together and yet comes up with an image and we know exactly what he is getting at. I think he is looking at the female tortoise as a figure of strength in this part of the description in using the word iron; or am I reading this wrong? Is this more of an ironic statement?

The last line "having the bread hanging over her chin" really make me chuckle. It seems humorously playful and not at all judgemental.

Dark Muse

08-20-2008, 07:23 PM

This part is not too attractive a portrait of the female, but still it is amusing/funny. I like the way he refers again to her wide-beaked mouth. He used that in some of the other tortoise poems. He likes to refer to their mouths as 'beak-like", which is kind of strange but primitive as well, tying the bird kingdom into the reptile kingdom in some obscure but Lawrence way.

The mouths of turtles are acutally called beaks as well.

"pretty wedge of an iron, pristine face" because it is curious to me how he puts these odd words together and yet comes up with an image and we know exactly what he is getting at. I think he is looking at the female tortoise as a figure of strength in this part of the description in using the word iron; or am I reading this wrong? Is this more of an ironic statement?

I would agree with the allusion to strength here. It made me think of a sort of "hard" woman. Someone with a stern or severe looking face. It made me think of a woman who might be considered more handsome than pretty.

The last line "having the bread hanging over her chin" really make me chuckle. It seems humorously playful and not at all judgemental.

Yes I liked that

Like sudden curved scissors

I also wondered. Were the words scissors here used intentionally becasue they are a domestic, house hold item of which a woman would be given to use?

Janine

08-20-2008, 07:38 PM

The mouths of turtles are acutally called beaks as well.

Ahha...we had wondered about that in the other poems. Thanks for that tidbit of information. I live on a lake with turtles - you would think I would have known that.

DM, you sure are right there on the beam after I post. Glad you noticed and commented.

I would agree with the allusion to strength here. It made me think of a sort of "hard" woman. Someone with a stern or severe looking face. It made me think of a woman who might be considered more handsome than pretty.

Good. I was just getting an impression, so it was a 'guess', but I suppose I was not far off. Again that reminds me of Frieda. I am sure Lawrence was thinking of her and a couple, who had been married for a number of years, when he wrote this.

Yes I liked that

Good.

I also wondered. Were the words scissors here used intentionally becasue they are a domestic, house hold item of which a woman would be given to use?

Yes, that word was interesting, wasn't it? I think I agree with you on this one. Kind of scary - DM, we have been agreeing way too much lately. ;):alien::lol:

Dark Muse

08-20-2008, 07:41 PM

Hehe I know it does get frightening when that happens

Janine

08-21-2008, 01:00 PM

Hehe I know it does get frightening when that happens

Yes, very frightening...hummm....but somehow nice, really...are the planets lined up in a strange configuration? I think yours are definitely 'favorable' right now - you seem to have gotten 'inspired' and your creativity is blossoming, DM! I like the new threads you have started lately and the PreRaphaelite discussion group. I must go soon and check the progress there.

Before we move on with the text I think this stanza is so funny - I will explain:

She likes to eat.
She hurries up, striding reared on long uncanny legs,
When food is going.
Oh yes, she can make haste when she likes.

In descriptions by Lawrence of his wife he often pointed out that lines just like this one "she likes to eat." I read the travel books and she he would always talk about her going past a market and wanting to stop to get some exotic food or bread. I had to laugh when I read this line. Lawrence saw his wife like a turtle or vis versa....how funny:lol: The last line is funny too because often his portrayals of Freida made her seem slow and lazy, but as the poem says "Oh yes, she can make haste when she likes." - I can just see Lawrence reading this to his wife and the two of them laughing away.

By the way, I like to eat, so I can relate.

Dark Muse

08-21-2008, 01:36 PM

Thank you for the background information, that is rather amusing

Janine

08-22-2008, 02:57 PM

DM, it looks like it is just you and me in here for now. Should I post the next section of the poem?

Dark Muse

08-22-2008, 03:21 PM

Yes so it seems. I am ready for it. Sense no one else seems to be posting here, I say you can go ahead and post the next part

Janine

08-22-2008, 03:54 PM

Ok, DM, later tonight then, if I am not too tired out. Did you see that ad on our page right now? "Who has a crush on you?" - haha - wonder who has a crush on me???? :lol:

Virgil

08-22-2008, 04:04 PM

I apologize for not participating yet. I will get into it tonight, I promise.

Janine

08-22-2008, 04:23 PM

Virgil, good...Ok and ok on the other L thread. I will post in there later on - going out soon.

Virgil

08-22-2008, 09:49 PM

Dark Muse

08-22-2008, 09:53 PM

I did some research and found out it means He and It

Janine

08-22-2008, 10:28 PM

Ok, I've read the poem once and I need to read it again. But what does the title "Lui et Elle" mean? Is that a man's and woman's name? Are we doing this in sections too? We should post the entire poem in a solid block.

Virgil, I did post the entire poem; look back a page, silly. How did you miss it? Now I am taking it by stanzas; but we have only talked about a few so far. So what should I do now that you popped back in here? Shall I wait until you comment on the poem and give your first impression to the theme and meaning, as in the other short story thread? I can easily wait; I just got home and I am tired out now. Read it over again and let me know when to post the next part - ok?

I did some research and found out it means He and It

My friend was over last night and I showed her the poem and then I got my dictionary out - French/English and while I was trying to find the words, she looked them up online and finally we determined it means 'he and she'. Where did you get it from 'It' from Dark Muse?

Virgil

08-22-2008, 10:42 PM

Who's Manny? :alien:

No go on with the poem, I'll catch up.

Oh I think it means He and She. That makes a lot of sense.

Dark Muse

08-22-2008, 10:47 PM

Yes, apprently the original source I used was mistaken, I did further looking into it, and it is He and She

Janine

08-23-2008, 11:33 AM

Thank you for the background information, that is rather amusing

Glad you enjoyed that. I like to dig up this stuff on L and his wife. Guess I am just naturally nosey. ;):lol:

Janine

08-23-2008, 11:45 AM

Who's Manny? :alien:

:rolleyes::cool:Humm...I don't know a 'Manny'...never heard of him, did you? Strange ...:alien:... Who is Janine? I think today she is a dunce. I humbly beg your apologises, Virgil...I realise I thought I posted the entire poem, but I did not, unless :confused: it got buried several pages back, I should check that now. I think I will go back and post it somewhere in my former post, if it is not there afterall. Sorry 'bout that - so much was going on here, with all the changes, I must have just missed that part. I will let you all know, which post I edit, to post the introduction/poem introduction. Talk about confused:(

No go on with the poem, I'll catch up.

Ok, good, I will then - today.

Oh I think it means He and She. That makes a lot of sense

Yes, it does, since the first part is about the female tortoise and the second part focus' on the male or her mate.

UPDATE: Ok, just editing this - Virgil and Dark Muse, I placed the entire poem in post #102...I had originally only reposted your former link, Virgil, and then if you look at post #98 - I also reposted your introductory information on the entire series of 'Tortoise' poems.

So now I will go ahead and post the next part of the poem we encounter.

Janine

08-23-2008, 12:02 PM

Here is the next few stanzas of the poem:

O Mistress, Mistress,
Reptile mistress,
Your eye is very dark, very bright,
And it never softens
Although you watch.

She knows,
She knows well enough to come for food,
Yet she sees me not;
Her bright eye sees, but not me, not anything,
Sightful, sightless, seeing and visionless,
Reptile mistress.

Taking bread in her curved, gaping, toothless mouth,
She has no qualm when she catches my finger in her steel overlapping gums,
But she hangs on, and my shout and my shrinking are nothing to her,
She does not even know she is nipping me with her curved beak.
Snake-like she draws at my finger, while I drag it in horror away.

Dark Muse

08-23-2008, 02:45 PM

First of all I just have to say I loved these lines. It was one of my favorite parts of the poem, the way the verse is somewhat repeated, though the words are changed slightly, it begins the same.

O Mistress, Mistress,
Reptile mistress,
Your eye is very dark, very bright,
And it never softens
Although you watch.

It sounds like some sort of chant to me, which is why I liked it. An invocation to the reptile goodess.

I will come back later to post on the rest of this section of the poem

Janine

08-23-2008, 04:09 PM

First of all I just have to say I loved these lines. It was one of my favorite parts of the poem, the way the verse is somewhat repeated, though the words are changed slightly, it begins the same.

It sounds like some sort of chant to me, which is why I liked it. An invocation to the reptile goodess.

I will come back later to post on the rest of this section of the poem

DM,I like that part, too...I think Lawrence used the repetition well and he establishes a nice rhythm; it is as you say - words slightly varied to make it work. It does indeed sound very much like a chant and I think that was his intention at this point in the poem. It is also very naturalistic. I feel he establishes a real connection here with himself, his wife and the natural animal world. Even in his contact of feeding the female, you feel a 'personal' connection and when you get to the part describing the male, you can't but help to see L's own personality emerge.

This part of the poem that you quoted could almost stand by itself as a short little poem with it's own significance and deeper meaning.

Dark Muse

08-23-2008, 08:37 PM

She knows,
She knows well enough to come for food,
Yet she sees me not;
Her bright eye sees, but not me, not anything,
Sightful, sightless, seeing and visionless,
Reptile mistress.

This I think is a bit of a comical look into the domestic life when the passion has dwindled out of the marrige. You get this picture of the dejected husband sitting at the table while his wife seems not to notice his existence any longer.

Her bright eye sees, but not me, not anything,
Sightful, sightless, seeing and visionless,

This makes me think of a sort of vacant stare. A glazed over look, of just going over the same routine day in and day out, but no longer truly living.

I still need to ponder over the last verse in this section a bit more.

Janine

08-23-2008, 08:42 PM

Good points, Dark Muse and I would have to agree with you. I think that he must have written this poem later on when his own marriage had become a little hum-drum and telltale. It is quite amusing, at least to me.

Take your time mulling over the last stanza; I am a little tired and worn-out tonight anyway.

Dark Muse

08-24-2008, 04:58 PM

Taking bread in her curved, gaping, toothless mouth,
She has no qualm when she catches my finger in her steel overlapping gums,
But she hangs on, and my shout and my shrinking are nothing to her,
She does not even know she is nipping me with her curved beak.
Snake-like she draws at my finger, while I drag it in horror away.

I found these lines to be quite comical. It makes me think of this woman/creature, whatever it is, just shoveling food in thier mouth when the poor unfornate husband happens to get his hand in the way and gets caught, and she/it does not even notice and just keeps eating.

I think the use of the word "toothless" here further emphasizes the point that they have been together a long time and are in the later years of thier relationship.

Virgil

08-24-2008, 05:49 PM

I'm caught up. :D

I agree with everything that has been said. Of the Tortoise poems, this does seem different. Notice these lines:

She snaps the soft bread from my hand in great mouthfuls,
Opening her rather pretty wedge of an iron, pristine face
Into an enormously wide-beaked mouth
Like sudden curved scissors,
And gulping at more than she can swallow, and working her thick, soft tongue,
And having the bread hanging over her chin.
This I think is the only one of the poems where the poet actually physically participates in the poem. The other poems I think focus soley on the tortoise.

Also, this is a grown up Tortoise, though a young adult. This first of the Tortoise poems was of an infant Tortoise, the second of a child tortoise within a family, and now this as a sort of sexually aware Tortoise. There is the female, more experienced and our hero torotoise will follow and sort of get initiated :blush: into the sexual world. The female is matronly and experienced and he is a sort of youth learning about the birds and the bees. ;)At least this is how I read this poem.

Janine

08-24-2008, 06:25 PM

Virgil, Glad that you finally got caught up and resurfaced; maybe like a tortoise digging his way back from the soil;). I think that Quark is having a similar problem; we have not seen him for days, since he has made his move into his new place. He will resurface soon, too.:)

I did a little more research on the poems. This poem was written around 1920 according to the timeline book: Sagar ~ "A Calender of his Works." I am reposting what you wrote sometime back, explaining Lawrence intentions for these poems as a group, representing the various stages of one's life:

Originally Posted by Virgil
I did a little reseach on Lawrence's Tortoise poems and I wanted to share it with you. The Tortoise poems are a sequence of six poems that Lawrence wrote and first published as a small bookl called Tortoise (1921) and then incoproated into a much larger book of poems called Birds, Beasts and Flowers (1923). The Tortoise poems were actually written in September of 1920 while Lawrence was staying alone in Florence, Italy. The six poems are called "Baby Tortoise," "Tortoise Shell," "Tortoise Family Connections," "Lui Et Elle," "Tortoise Gallantry," and "Tortoise Shout." The movement of the poems goes from birth to adulthood to death. Thy span the life cycle.

I found this reference also in the same book:

September 1920 At Villa Canovaia,San Gervasio, Florence, until about 28, then to Vence.

SUMMARY: Lawrence, alone in Florence, wrote a little more of Aaron's Rod, America, 'Listen to Your Own', and a dozen poems for Birds, Beasts, and Flowers.

Rosalind Thornycroft Popham: 'While still in Sicily, Lawrence had hoped to come to Florence......Eventually he did come, and stayed two or three weeks before going on to Venice where later Frieda joined him en route to Germany. While there he wrote "The Evangelistic Beasts", the tortoise poems, "The Pomegranate", "The Peach," and "The Fig".

So, he wrote all of these and the tortoise poem when he was 34, but considering he only lived to be 44, and had aged with his own illness and weakened state (just look at any photo of the two) he was an old 34; so was Frieda with her hefty weight, although she seemed to be healthy and lived to a ripe old age. I think what I am trying to point out is I think this poem reveals more the old married couple and the middle-aged stage L. This is actually the fourth poem in the sequence; we have discussed 3 prior to this one. Wait, we did do all three - right? I will have to check on that - I don't quite recall the "Tortoise Family" one.

Yes, I do think that passage that you posted is a curious part of the poem but I think I read it a little differently than you do. I see both the male and the female as more equal and middle-aged, as Dark Muse has pointed out - this marriage has been around awhile. I add to that, that the two have become 'used' to each other in their little quirps and such. Isn't that how it is usually in a marriage - even the best of them?

Dark Muse, you bring up some other good points in your last post.

Virgil, I think one would have to say this poem represents a more advanced stage in life - middle-aged. Back then probably 34 was considered 'middle-aged'.

Janine

08-29-2008, 12:23 AM

Here are the next 4 stanzas:

Taking bread in her curved, gaping, toothless mouth,
She has no qualm when she catches my finger in her steel overlapping gums,
But she hangs on, and my shout and my shrinking are nothing to her,
She does not even know she is nipping me with her curved beak.
Snake-like she draws at my finger, while I drag it in horror away.

Mistress, reptile mistress,
You are almost too large, I am almost frightened.
He is much smaller,
Dapper beside her,
And ridiculously small.

Her laconic eye has an earthy, materialistic look,
His, poor darling, is almost fiery.
His wimple, his blunt-prowed face,
His low forehead, his skinny neck, his long, scaled, striving legs,
So striving, striving,
Are all more delicate than she,

And he has a cruel scar on his shell.
Poor darling, biting at her feet,
Running beside her like a dog, biting her earthy, splay feet,
Nipping her ankles,
Which she drags apathetic away, though without retreating into her shell.
Agelessly silent,
And with a grim, reptile determination,
Cold, voiceless age-after-age behind him, serpents' long obstinacy
Of horizontal persistence.

I think it is interesting that in the second stanza Lawrence states "I am almost frightened." Then in the next line the way he abruptly switches to the male description -"He is much smaller,"
I like what follows.

Dapper beside her,
And ridiculously small.

This still seems to me that Lawrence is seeing the tortoise couple, as he would percieve himself and his wife Frieda - she being large and he being small, but dapper. He even goes as far as to say he is 'ridiculously small'. I notice he begins that stanza with the reptile reference, as though the female's reptile presence takes over the male and makes him small in comparison, subservient to this strong power of the female.

Dark Muse

08-29-2008, 12:29 AM

Mistress, reptile mistress,
You are almost too large, I am almost frightened.
He is much smaller,
Dapper beside her,
And ridiculously small.

These lines are quite comical I think, and they make me think of the story The Shadow in the Rose Garden, I remember in that the man is said to be rather small, while they talk of how fine the woman's carraige is.

Her laconic eye has an earthy, materialistic look,
His, poor darling, is almost fiery.
His wimple, his blunt-prowed face,
His low forehead, his skinny neck, his long, scaled, striving legs,
So striving, striving,
Are all more delicate than she,

I find the use of the words earthy and materilastic together to be quite currious, usually those are two things that are set apart from each other.

And he has a cruel scar on his shell.
Poor darling, biting at her feet,
Running beside her like a dog, biting her earthy, splay feet,
Nipping her ankles,
Which she drags apathetic away, though without retreating into her shell.
Agelessly silent,
And with a grim, reptile determination,
Cold, voiceless age-after-age behind him, serpents' long obstinacy
Of horizontal persistence.

For some reason this makes me think of a woman dragging her husband off shoping with her when he does not want to go.

Janine

08-29-2008, 12:46 AM

:lol: I am following you around DM, :lol: You are so swift, I just posted this and then checked the social groups...then your photo comment...

These lines are quite comical I think, and they make me think of the story The Shadow in the Rose Garden, I remember in that the man is said to be rather small, while they talk of how fine the woman's carraige is.

I thought so, too...very comical, as if Lawrence is laughing at himself. It does indeed recall us to that short story and the way the couple was described. I had not thought of that before you mentioned it.

I find the use of the words earthy and materilastic together to be quite currious, usually those are two things that are set apart from each other.

That is curious as you say. We must think on that and just why Lawrence choose to place them in the same sentence and description and so close to each other - they certainly set up a kind of contrast or duality. Yet I think a person could be both - I think he may have seen his wife as being both earthy and materialistic, even though she did not live high by any standard; she did like fine things though, and she must have been earthy to marry Lawrence...;)

For some reason this makes me think of a woman dragging her husband off shoping with her when he does not want to go.

Indeed it does and it reminded me immediately of a scene right out of his travel book - I think "Sea and Sardina", when Frieda spied a marketplace and Lawrence grumbled about her wanting to go off to buy some local items and some fruit. You could tell he was being playful, but somewhat typically male as well, as when a women says the dreaded word "shopping"! ;):lol:

Virgil

08-29-2008, 10:37 AM

Mistress, reptile mistress,
You are almost too large, I am almost frightened.
He is much smaller,
Dapper beside her,
And ridiculously small.
I enjoyed this stanza, She holds the pwer in the relationship and the young male tortoise is so accepting of her. At least here. I love the word "dapper" here. :lol: It seems to say so much.

Janine

08-29-2008, 02:34 PM

I enjoyed this stanza, She holds the pwer in the relationship and the young male tortoise is so accepting of her. At least here. I love the word "dapper" here. :lol: It seems to say so much.

I did, too.....the word 'dapper' is a sort of humorous word to me...when I see a dapper gentleman I think of someone a little overdressed with a fashionable hat and walking stick; but that is just me. I do think by using the word - Lawrence did interject a bit of humor in this poem and his timing for the word was perfect.

Her laconic eye has an earthy, materialistic look,

His, poor darling, is almost fiery.
His wimple, his blunt-prowed face,
His low forehead, his skinny neck, his long, scaled,

striving legs,
So striving, striving,

Are all more delicate than she,

I found this stanza more serious and more self-pitying in a way, contrasting her "laconic eye" with "an earthy, materialsitic look" with "His, poor darling, is almost fiery."...very curious words Lawrence uses here....what exactly do you think he means by her 'laconic eye' and his being 'almost firery'?

He goes onto point to his 'wimple', 'his blunt-prowed face, His low forehead, his skinny neck, his long, scaled, striving legs'....

I count 6 times the repeated word 'his' in that stanza, sandwiched between the two lone references to the female - 'Her' and 'she' - first and last line. Interesting use of repetition to set up a rhythm and make his point about the male's weakness in relation to the power of the female tortoise.

Then he goes onto put further emphasis on the word 'striving',
'striving' being repeated 3 times, before the admission that he is " more delicate than she". Interesting discribing mostly the male in that stanza, but ending with 'she.'

Also, in separating the sentences, in that one stanza, the first half has the H sound prominent and in the second half, the S sound is emphasised.

Janine

09-15-2008, 03:39 PM

Found a interesting photo of Lawrence I will post tonight.

Janine

10-05-2008, 12:04 AM

Did I loose everyone here discussing this poem? Maybe we can resume soon since the L short story thread is on hold for this month. I would eventually like to get to all of the poems since the represent the various cycles of life in nature.

Dark Muse

10-05-2008, 12:07 AM

I am game if you wish to continue, I guess it just got forgotton with everything else that was going on.

Virgil

10-05-2008, 12:28 AM

Ok, with me. :)

Janine

10-05-2008, 01:18 AM

Dark Muse and Virgil....haha...seems I only have to post and comment and your two arrive. I must have the magic touchtonight. Glad you two are game. We can go from where we left off. Let me review it tomorrow and see if it is time to post anymore of the poem; meanwhile, someone might want to comment on my post #146....please...someone....anyone....

Dark Muse

10-06-2008, 11:53 AM

I found this stanza more serious and more self-pitying in a way.

I did not really get that impression. I felt the use of langauge kept up the slightly humurous tone of the poem.

contrasting her "laconic eye" with "an earthy, materialsitic look" with "His, poor darling, is almost fiery."...very curious words Lawrence uses here....what exactly do you think he means by her 'laconic eye' and his being 'almost firery'?

I think it is a way that contrasts there two personsalites. I see her as being rather slow and lazy, with all her eating. While with the use of the word "firey" he seems to appear to be more high-strung, and anxious. He seems almost more frantic, while she is very slow, and low key.

Virgil

10-06-2008, 01:02 PM

I found this stanza more serious and more self-pitying in a way, contrasting her "laconic eye" with "an earthy, materialsitic look" with "His, poor darling, is almost fiery."...very curious words Lawrence uses here....what exactly do you think he means by her 'laconic eye' and his being 'almost firery'?
Yes I agree it gets more serious now.

I count 6 times the repeated word 'his' in that stanza, sandwiched between the two lone references to the female - 'Her' and 'she' - first and last line. Interesting use of repetition to set up a rhythm and make his point about the male's weakness in relation to the power of the female tortoise.
What do you think the effect is of the repetitions? I don't think it's just for emphasis, though it's that too.

Then he goes onto put further emphasis on the word 'striving',
'striving' being repeated 3 times, before the admission that he is " more delicate than she". Interesting discribing mostly the male in that stanza, but ending with 'she.'
I think the repetition of "his" coordinates with the repetition of "striving." I think the lines just move with the slow ponderous walk of a tortoise.

Janine

10-07-2008, 01:04 AM

Glad to see you two back! I will be back tomorrow to comment on your posts. Too tired out now.....

scaredoldunit

10-07-2008, 01:32 AM

Janine

10-07-2008, 05:47 PM

shockingly starkly reminds one of slow and steady and winning and race and I feel hope and pity and awe and relief. in the context of the baby tort as a potentially fragile newborn, pure and uncorrupted and potentially vulnerable, I both marvel at all that virginity, naivety and purety, but given what I perceive regarding the longevity, steadfastness, disciplined dogedness, and perhaps arrogance, of tortoises, this poem, without reading it, must be a celebration of the diversity of life, the rejection of competition, the foolishness of panic, the bliss of ignorance.

Hi scaredoldunit, I see you are a new member. Welcome to the forum. Are you a Lawrence enthusiast? Before I answer the above, are you referring to the first poem we discussed of this series - "Baby Tortoise"? I posted a few times in this thread that Lawrence wrote this series of poems each representing different stages in life. We are currently on one near to the end of the series, but I would be glad to discuss with you the earlier "Baby Tortoise" if you so please. Also, it would benefit you to go back and read that first discussion on that particular poem. It is quite informative/enlightening, I believe.

The one we are currently discussing we are nearly done and it involves middle aged years. Soon we will start a new poem - it maybe the last in the series. I will have to check my references on that.

scaredoldunit

10-13-2008, 03:44 AM

sometimes tardiness is judged to be weak, from what i've witnessed sure patience is sleek, designed for efficient avoidance of leaking, leaks are unsound not in line with our thinking,

time is the tyrant like thurston has said, thankful for rules without which all is dead. dead ain't no problem as much as it's true, truth's not so bad if you don't need no proof, points are cooridinates lost it is sure, nowhere is lost and right here to be sure, things that define themselves are quite a trip, finding it hard to evade their own grip?

Essence and purety cannot be taught, more slanted toward instinct, most wisely sought are the things that can point us towards faith thus from mind, difficult it is and ending to find.

Janine

10-13-2008, 01:48 PM

scaredoldunit, excuse me for asking, but what does your poem have to do with this discussion on the Tortoise poem "Lui et Elle"? This is one in Lawrence's series on the cycles of life, about the 'middle-aged' years. I am not sure I can see that relationship in your poem above. Can you explain? Maybe I have missed something.

We do need to get back to the basic discussion in this thread, of the current poem; partly this is my fault, for not posting another section of text to discuss. I have been sick, but this week, I will do so and hopefully those discussing it before, will return to finish up this poem; so we can proceed to the next poem in the series.

Suggestion: either post your poem in another thread of it's own or start a blog of your
poems. Many people do so.

scaredoldunit

10-13-2008, 06:48 PM

i'm purposely out of control and feel bad about corrupting your blog and it will end with this

Janine

10-14-2008, 01:42 PM

i'm purposely out of control and feel bad about corrupting your blog and it will end with this

Ok, thanks and this is a thread discussion, not a personal blog.

Janine

05-30-2009, 04:07 PM

I've been wondering what happened to this discussion on Lawrence's Tortoise poems. I was reminded of this discussion and the poems last night, when a huge turtle ventured into our yard and then headed down our driveway; no doubt, she was heading for the street, to lay her eggs somewhere over on the other side - dumb turtle. Now the poor babies will, no doubt, get flattened, unless they are really smart and make it across the street, when there is little traffic. At anyrate, it was so cool to observe this turtle up close. She was a snapper about 18" or more in length and about 13" across; she may have been even larger (I am just guessing). She was one of the largest and oldest I have seen around here. Also, the tail added an additional 8 or so inches to her length. Her head was massive and surely, did look like a prehistoric animal; so did her giant claws. We live with a pond directly behind our house/backyard; so without a doubt, she had ventured up under the cover of night to lay her eggs, as I said before. My mother just happened to put on side light on and saw her massive shape in our driveway; she called to me and I grabbed a flashlight. Wish now, I had tried to get a photo. It might have worked with a flash. I was impressed with how close to Lawrence's description the turtle was. I observed the pattern of block segments on it's back...so interesting; and the fringe of the shell with it's series of overlaping sections. Also, the shell looked leathery and old; even ancient, prehistoric - one had to marvel at nature's design and patterning; even the tail had patterns and looked like it had sort of dark/black claw-like protrusions and could be quite treacherous, if whipped around in the water. This turtle has been around for awhile. I wonder how many years she has been coming up on land to lay her eggs. I wonder how many children she has had all told; how many eggs she layed in her lifetime.

She poked her head out of her shell sheepishly and when I took a twig she didn't snap at it as I expected. She was more slow and dossal than I thought she would be. Finally, after standing there a good half hour she did venture to poke her head out and show her eyes wide open and also to show her sharp needlelike teeth; sort of threatening looking. My neighbor came up to view her too and see if we could divert her from going across the road. Apparently our diversion attempts did not do the trick and not long after she was gone; no doubt busy with the birth process.