Symbolism

[grace86]

Still reading...I am about halfway through it by now.

********SPOILERS********

Did you ever notice the symbolism in the novel? I am at the part where Marut is talking to Allan. They have just woken up after being captured and Allan is questioning him as to who and what are Jana and the Child.

The symbolism I am referring to is in them and in the Kendah people. Marut was talking about the translation of Jana into Egyptian Set, in other words, Satan. And the Ivory Child represents all that is good and it speaks through a "guardian."

I just found it interesting the good and evil twist here. Good represented by a human form, and Evil by a beast. I think that part of the evil in Christian religion stems from natural/animal like behaviors.

I also thought about this in the White and Black Kendah. They are both people, and they are living together but cannot coexist peacefully, but the Black Kendah are strong and many in number while the White are few but strong in a more intellectual sort of manner. Black / White, a representation of good and evil? I noticed the descriptions of either side so far...Harut is always smiling, Simba demands sacrifices to Jana, Haggard's description of the Uncle before Hans kills him.

It seems like Haggard splits the good and evil between the white and black peoples. Haggard was a person of his time and that was kind of the belief wasn't it?

Haggard seems, with this interpretation, to also stick to his traditional beliefs and influence (as is seen in all his novels) of Christianity.

What also gets me in this novel is Allan's change of attitude. He seems a little more pessimistic, or would you call it realistic?

Just some thoughts. Sorry for rambling but I'd like to know what you all think about the novel.

[mtpspur]

Haggard is pretty consistent in the beast (usually large-sized) as being evil most especially in this book--in ALland the The Holy Flower--it's a giant ape--not King Kong sized though.

While Haggard definitely respected the back races he was in no way free of the British attitude of the time--that they were doing them a favor--to be blunt. Haggard was much better thn his ordinary contemporaries in protraying the majesty of Africa especially in relation to the Zulus.

I know also haggard was keenly interested in Egyptology and reincarnation and these themes weave in and out of his writings. She and Allan will give you insights into his feelings on life after death.

Also contrasting black/white people/tribes often occuring --though I think it's adventire shorthand to keep the characters easy to distinguish.

[grace86]

Even though he was expressing certain ideas natural to the time, you can tell by reading it, as you have mentioned, how much he respects the tribal people and Africa itself.

I love how he goes on to describe the native Africans. I think he does show the British influence in the novel...Hans is completely different than say, the Simba king.

Which are his novels that focus more on Egyptology?

[grace86]

Haggard is pretty consistent in the beast (usually large-sized) as being evil most especially in this book--in ALland the The Holy Flower--it's a giant ape--not King Kong sized though.

His novels seem to be consistent in more than just the beast.

This is the third novel of his that I have read, and they carry on a story line construction that seems to be traditional to Haggard.

The novels start off with him or the main character in some other place like London. Then he meets his comrades, trouble or adventure brews and they decide to go to Africa. Then we see native tribes, and tribal problems. Allan, or main character has to save the day whether by participating in war or by aiding in getting rid of some beast.

I'm not knocking Haggard. I just like the themes he uses and he uses them well because I am always entertained while reading his novels. Are all his novels kind of like that mtpspur? Sorry, I'm getting off of Ivory Child.

[mtpspur]

Other then the She series and Quatermains I have also read Cleopatra, Eric Brighteyes (a Viking story), and Smith and the Pharoahs and Other Stories. Haggard does seem to repeat his formula but bear in mind these novels were written over a 40 year span. Treasure of the Lake is a strange reworking of She for that matter (to say more would spoil it). Ancient Allan is very much in Egypt times by way of old fashioned smoking dope (taduki leaves) and seeing past lives (as in A. and the Ice Gods--cave man times). Cleopatra goes without saying as to Egypt. I believe as you get to the end of Ivory Child you'll see how The Child is reflective of Egypt. Have you reached the camel chase yet??

[grace86]

I've just finished where Jana chased Hans and Allan across the river, and Hans attacks his trunk with a knife because of his hat :lol:. They are past that now where they have just met the better half of the companion killed by Jana. Allan passed out.

Will be reading another two chapters today!!

Oh yes, I remember the Egyptian references in She...that is why I started reading Haggard. Now I am all excited to read the other novels....a summer of Haggard!!! :D

[mtpspur]

You just remined me Wisdom's Daughter the last She novel but first in chronological order starts in Egypt and of course ends in Kor.

[grace86]

Oh my goodness!!! Poor Savage!!! I knew he would be the first one! :bawling:

[mtpspur]

Yes that didn't help my fear of snakes very much.

[grace86]

You know, what Hans did was really brave. I like his character so much, but I have a feeling he will be the second one :( .

What I like about this novel was Haggard's use of foreshadowing. It doesn't make the novel predictable (neither does his form) but it makes it rather enjoyable in the sense that you know something is coming and you just can't tell when...sorry I am rambling. :D

[mtpspur]

You might wish to reread the first page and see Allan's comment re Hans. Good news Hans is in a number of the other books--She and Allan, Treasure of the Lake, Heu-Heu, Allan and the Holy Flower.

[grace86]

Hmm okay I will go back and reread it. It's nice to know he is in other books...he is just one of those characters that you remember after you read the book (along with the others) but I always like Allan's sidekicks.

I wanted to read Allan and the Holy Flower...is that book supposed to precede this one?

[mtpspur]

Yes, the character Scroope appeared first in that book which Allan mentions when he gets invited to the hunting party in London.

[grace86]

Scroope has a minor part in this novel...he just introduces him to Lord Ragnall. Isn't he marrying Miss Manners?

[grace86]

To take a single instance, Harût and Marût were convinced by divination that I, and I only, could kill Jana, which was why they invited me to Kendahland. Yet in the end it was Hans who killed him. Jana nearly killed me!

Yay!!! I know he sticks around until the end then, it just doesn't say whether or not in the effort Hans gets killed. He owed Jana for his hat anyway! :lol:

The things you don't catch at the beginning of a novel!

[mtpspur]

Yes Miss Manners is the heroine of The Holy Flower (by the by n ot one of my favorite AQs partially because that giant animal is no Jana.

[grace86]

When was Ivory Child published mtpspur??

[mtpspur]

1916 per my sources. Have you finished it? I know you're close. This would one of the easier books to find used though as I've stated Wildsie Press has most of the AQs back in print. Still maintain Heu-Heu and Treasure of the Lake hardest to find used.

[grace86]

I have three chapters left. Two which I will probably finish today. The reason I asked when it was published is that I found a copy from a used book dealer online saying it was 1915. I put in an inquiry and they told me that the book had a copyright of 1915 but was a 1924 reprint. It is selling for three dollars. I didn't know if I should go for it or not.

It is easier to find than some of his others. I have found a lot of paperback copies for about fifteen dollars.

Just about finished. I will let you know how it goes.

[mtpspur]

Interesting--my notes were from a listing from an American copy of Alllan's Wife with an introduction to the series back in the 80s. It had taken that long to get the fourth short story (Magepa the Buck) title as the last link of 14 novels and 4 shorts. Half wondering if 1915 represents the British edition vs. American. Three dollars sounds like a deal. Depends on what shape you want it in I suppose. I went the Wildside Press route and gave my hardcovers to Jim. And the set still doesn't match up in format. Know I've grumped this theme before but I like uniformity in series.

[grace86]

Yes I am finding the publication date of 1916 as well. But interestingly enough, in late summer and early fall of 1915 it looks like the Ivory Child was put in eight parts into The Bluebook Magazine along with other fiction writers.

Ideally, I would like to remain consistent in book types when buying a series, but I get too impatient! I am also having trouble finding a publisher who does all the AQ books. Most of them do King Soloman's Mines.

[mtpspur]

Wildside Press has all but Maiwa's Revenge and Treasure of the Lake back in print. Their web page is a bit difficult to navigate but stick with it and you'll hit the author area after a few false starts and clicks.

[mtpspur]

Very impressed with the Blue Book reference. Never did a real study of first appearances. I know Allan and the Ice Gods was in Famous Fantastic Novels (least I think that was the title) but had no idea he'ld been in Blue Book where a lot of Edgar Rice Burroughs books were printed first.

I have two paperbacks of King Solomon's Mines and Allan Quatermain that footnote the original manuscript vs. setted on book version mostly a word or sentence and two here and there. Come to think of it--my Haggards are back in a box now and I'm not sure about Wildside doing those two.

The four She books were all in paperback from Del Ray books and probably still easy to find. Neat thing there the publisher issued them in reading order.

[grace86]

Ack I finished it :( !

*****SPOILERS*****(has anyone else actually looked at this thread?)

I really enjoyed it I'm just sad it's over. But what better way could it have been for Hans!!! I was going to start pummeling you with questions as to why Allan couldn't shoot Jana, until it gave some sort of explanation later on. Hans was so brave! I think Haggard also did it that way to show Hans' love for Allan.

I liked how Haggard showed us the parallel with Lady Ragnall coming back to her senses through shattering the Ivory Child. Allan kept dismissing things off as a coincidence, but I agree with Lady Ragnall that it was all related. Do you think that the killing of her baby by a circus elephant in London had to do with Jana or with Harut and Marut's magic.

I liked the two of them, but I can't be fully convinced that they wouldn't do something like that to prod Lady Ragnall on.

If Allan has faith in Providence, do you think that he dismisses coincidence for fate? or do you think he is just sceptical? It seems that if he were to be sceptical, he certainly gets proven wrong a lot of the time :D .

What was going on with Hans' dream before the battle? I know that Mameena is from another novel...who were all those people in the dream...can you give me the titles they were in? I am going to have to refer back to your list because this book referenced heavily upon the other novels...of which I am going to read. Was it Heaven that Hans saw in the dream or was it like a purgatory kind of place...because he said it wasn't the place of the "eternal flame."

Hans makes conversation on heaven around Allan's Predikant...is this explained in another novel?

I know there was more I wanted to bring up about the last three chapters...but I cannot remember. I'll bug you later!

Haggard list is up to three read: She, King Soloman's Mines and Ivory Child!!

[mtpspur]

Congratulations. I know my oldest son has read some Haggard but he's never shown a great interest. The 'Predikant' is Hans name for Allan's father. I think it's a term for a Reverend. Marie gives insight into Allan's family and younger days. Mameena is central to the plot of Child of Storm and keps making afterlife appaerances here, She and Allan and Finished if I recall. AQ refuses to admit he has feelings for her.

My take on AQ is that he refuses to admit that in his world at least magic is a contender. I believe in the stories themselves the magic is real but AQ is a 'civilized' God fearing man who refuses to believe his eyes. He does seem to be somewhat fatalistice but willing to do all he can to thwart the inevitable. As a character he sufferes personal losses on a regular basis. I loved Hans and wanted him to always be on the team but his absence in King Solomon's Mines probably precluded that. Haggard does an excellent job for the most part keeping AQ chronlogu straight. She and Allan addresses some of his (Haggard's) concerns on life after death. Trust me you'll never forget Zikali.

Harut and Marut were fanatics as far as I was concerned. Fate does seem to play a lot in these stories. Lady Ragnall will be in two more books as I've mentioned. Her last appearance i a haunting one.

By the by the view screen says people are watching just not commenting.

[grace86]

My take on AQ is that he refuses to admit that in his world at least magic is a contender. I believe in the stories themselves the magic is real but AQ is a 'civilized' God fearing man who refuses to believe his eyes. He does seem to be somewhat fatalistice but willing to do all he can to thwart the inevitable. As a character he sufferes personal losses on a regular basis. I loved Hans and wanted him to always be on the team but his absence in King Solomon's Mines probably precluded that. .

I think this struggle of his makes him a more likeable character and more realistic.

I might pursue another Haggard novel sometime this summer. I never really noticed that he suffered a loss frequently...perhaps because I've only read one other Allan novel. It does seem like someone will die in each novel though. I just thought he had a new comrade in each novel :D

Lady Ragnall's foreshadowing of her and Allan's involvement in the future is good at catching my attention. Which novel do you recommend I pick up for the next venture?

[mtpspur]

She and Allan is my most favorite Haggard. If you maintain and interest in Lady Ragnall by all means read Ancient Allan. She and Allan has apearances by most of AQ's cast of characters alive and dead and will make you appreciate Marie, Child of Storm and Finished better (if read in that order). Whereas Ivory Child contains most of Haggard' themes, She and Allan is character driven (as well as adventurous) but I noticed you've in two books already picked on up on a typical AQ novel and how they go.. Ivory Child I always felt BEST displays AQ at his finest. Save Allan Quatermain for last (though 2nd written). It makes all the foreshadowing Haggard was doing filling in the gaps of AQ's life that much more satisfying to read.

[lionelrit]

Ayone know what Marie was talking about to Hans in the dream in this part:
"Then the Missie Marie said: 'Tell the Baas, Hans, that I also have a child which he will see one day, but it is not a son.' "
I have read the other Quatermain books, but can't remember anything about Marie having a child. What was she refering to?