Emily and self abnegation

[lyndsey87]

Hey,
I was just wonderin if any one had any views on the idea that emily dickinson uses self abnegation as an attempt to place her self in the readers center of attention? iv got an essay question that basically asks if she uses self abnegation as an illusion, a dramatic attempt to force herself into the center of our attentions. Iv done some research on the meaning of self abnegation - the setting aside of self interest for the sake of others, or for a belief, and is kind of like a denial of the self. I was thinking that maybe her proccupation with death is a example of this, as death is like the ultimate in abnegation, as its the ultimate disapperance?? have any of you got any other ideas? the poems i was thinkin of using were Hope, If i should die, It was not death and maybe I could not stop for death. (iv included them on here for reference).
If any one could help id realy appreciate it!
Thank you, Lyndsey

Hope
Hope is the thing with feathers
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all,

And sweetest in the gale is heard;
And sore must be the storm
That could abash the little bird
That kept so many warm.

I've heard it in the chilliest land
And on the strangest sea;
Yet, never, in extremity,
It asked a crumb of me.


If i should die
F I should die,
And you should live,
And time should gurgle on,
And morn should beam,
And noon should burn,
As it has usual done;
If birds should build as early,
And bees as bustling go,--
One might depart at option
From enterprise below!
'Tis sweet to know that stocks will stand
When we with daisies lie,
That commerce will continue,
And trades as briskly fly.
It make the parting tranquil
And keeps the soul serene,
That gentlemen so sprightly
Conduct the pleasing scene!


It was not death
It was not death, for I stood up,
And all the dead lie down;
It was not night, for all the bells
Put out their tongues, for noon.

It was not frost, for on my flesh
I felt siroccos crawl, -
Nor fire, for just my marble feet
Could keep a chancel cool.

And yet it tasted like them all;
The figures I have seen
Set orderly, for burial,
Reminded me of mine,

As if my life were shaven
And fitted to a frame,
And could not breathe without a key;
And 'twas like midnight, some,

When everything that ticked has stopped,
And space stares, all around,
Or grisly frosts, first autumn morns
Repeal the beating ground.

But most like chaos - stopless, cool, -
Without a chance or spar,
Or even a report of land
To justify despair was not death



Im sorry this post is so long!

[ktd222]

Can you post the essay question so I know what is exactly being asked?

[lyndsey87]

"Dickinson's self abnegation is an illusion, a dramatic attempt to force herself into the center of our attentions". Discuss.

that ok?? the questions really open!

[ktd222]

Yes, that is a pretty general question. Dickinson uses self-abnegation to free a belief or principle from illusion: bringing those ideas to the forefront of our attention: but with that comes an illustration of its affliction/infliction on her, or her idea of how the idea should be expressed. There is no “denial of the self” more than there is a sense of conveying undigested “truth,” and exemplifying that truth through her. You could use these poems:

Tell all the Truth but tell it slant---
Success in Cirrcuit lies
Too bright for our infirm Delight
The Truth's superb surprise
As Lightening to the Children eased
With explanation kind
The Truth must dazzle gradually
Or every man be blind---
------------------------------------
I never saw a moor,
I never saw the sea;
Yet know I how the heather looks,
And what a wave must be.
I never spoke with God,
Nor visited in heaven;
Yet certain am I of the spot
As if the chart were given.
--------------------------------------
Hope is the thing with feathers
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all,

And sweetest in the gale is heard;
And sore must be the storm
That could abash the little bird
That kept so many warm.

I've heard it in the chilliest land
And on the strangest sea;
Yet, never, in extremity,
It asked a crumb of me.

These poems are shorter, and easier to understand. Tell me if you need help analyzing these poems.

[lyndsey87]

Thank you so much for your help, i really appreciat it :) ok my analysis of the poems are as follows (i hope u dnt mind but im rubbish at this kind of thing and so your view on wether its right or not would be helpful)

Hope
about a bird that perches in the soul, yet Dickinson never comes out and describes it directly as a bird, instead tells us about its ability to fly, and how hope like a bird has the ability to fly away, to transcende our worries and troubles of the world.
Hopes tune is one of no words, perhaps giving an indication that if it did have words it would limit it by explaining what hope is about, and why it is needed.With it having no words, it means that hopem is not limited to jsut one situation. This is perhaps a reason why she chose to use the metaphore of a bird, becuase its song is also wordless.
The last line, depsite her callin upon it countless times, from the 'chillest land...the starngest sea' it has never once asked for anything in return from her.

To tell the truth but tell it slant
I found this one a little harder, so apologises if its not very good...
The first thing that struck me with this poem was the capitalisation of Truth, which led me to think that the poem is about God, and wether he exsists or not. "The truths suberb surprise" would be in man came to the realsiation that god wasnt real. The line before hand, the title of the poem is sayin that in order to the tell the truth you must be aware of the power that it will have, and that it must "dazzle gradually" inorder to not make every man blind. (i also read somewhere that with out the guidance of religion and God, amn would b blind)

I never saw a moor
again, this poem seems to be about religion. in the first two lines she says shes never seem a moor or the sea, yet she believes them to exsist and knows what heather and waves look like. Shes saying that just because shes never seen something does not mean that it does not exsist. She then goes on to say that shes never spoek with God, or seen heaven but she is certain that it exsists. The first bit appeals to the logic of people, and then the secodn bit, which by then the reader has been prepared for it by the first bit is again appealing to the logic in her readers. People who have never seen the sea believe that they know what it looks like and that it exsists, and s why shoud it be different in the case of God and heaven?


im a bit unsure as to where the self abnegation comes into her poems still. In "truth", she is freeing the belief that God may not be real? yet in "I never saw a moor" she seems to be condradicting herself, as she is sayin that God is real. Or shoudl i b looking at those two poems together? she is unsure if God is real, as in truth, and thinking about the consequences if he were not real, and then in I never saw a moor, commenting on the logical thinking that leads her to belive in God? I suppose that "truth" and I never saw a moor" are quite clearly her direct thoughts, where as Hope dosnt really come across as if she is in the middle of the poem, its more as if she is a bystander commenting on it?

If im askin too much of you then please let me know, i know these are the kind of things i should be asking my lecturer and tutors but there so unhelpful we jst get sent else where! but hopefully you can see that i am trying to do this myself and im not just relyin on others/yourself for the answers (she says after asking you to clear up the question for her... hehe)
Thank you,
Lyndsey

[ktd222]

Hope is the thing with feathers
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all,

And sweetest in the gale is heard;
And sore must be the storm
That could abash the little bird
That kept so many warm.

I've heard it in the chilliest land
And on the strangest sea;
Yet, never, in extremity,
It asked a crumb of me.

I think for purposes pertaining to the essay question, you should keep in mind the location of the speaker in relation to the idea expressed in each poem. Let’s look at the first poem.
“Hope” is the idea expressed in this poem. It is a constant, unwavering, unselfish, thing that accompanies people in extremist of times when all else in our capabilities is rendered futile. But underlying the idea of “hope” is its affect on her. That seems to be the concern of her. Which storm could possibly “abash the little Bird/that kept so many warm?” Abash: means to destroy the self-possession or self-confidence. This “abashing” could be directed towards the bird, but the bird is identified as “Hope,” itself. And “hope” is something that’s part of our soul. In the third stanza you see the appearance of her directly as the “I.” “Hope” affect on the “I” is expressed in the whole third stanza. This projects the idea of “hope” onto the speaker, not just someone unidentifiable. This also puts her in the position of expressing her thoughts about Hope: “yet never in Extremities,/it asked a crumb—of me.”

Do you have any other thoughts about this poem?

[lyndsey87]

Thank you, thats made it a lot clearer actually! iv had a go at attempting to go through the poems as you did with "Hope" and heres what i got;

To tell the truth
Iv read about the fact that her religion remained a confusing subject for her throughout her life (she would never publicly declare her religion and refused to partake in religous acts and some beliefs, such as sacraments and the strict rigidity of calvanism etc) yet in this poem she seems to be putting her own religious beliefs aside to question the exsistence of God. So whilst she never would declare her religion, she did believe in religion and heaven yet in the poem she is questioning wether or not it is real.
There is no "I" present and is more an expression of ideas/thoughts.
She also uses the idea of the truth of God as a way to express her ideas about how her poetry should be recieved "To bright for our intrim delight" poetry can nver be fully understood.
So in this poem she perhaps does use self abnegation as a way to place herself in the center of our attentions, by setting aside her own religious beliefs in order to ask a question that many others may have asked (the exsistence of God) yet she is also expressing her own ideas about her poetry, therefore placing herself further into out attentions. The lack of "I" present in the poetry ensures that it is not clear wether it is Emily Dickinson talking or wether it is a more open statement.

I never saw a moor
This one seems to contradict "To tell a truth" slightly, by talking of her certaintity that God is real. However it is written in the first person "I", so perhaps is actually her own thoughts, where as "Truth" is maybe not. She may not belive in her religions ideas of what enables one to get to heaven (the idea of pre destiantion, if thats the right word, and general 'good behaviour', and the following of the puritans and the sentimentals guidelines) but she does believe in heaven "I never spoke with God,/Nor visited in heaven;/Yet certain am I of the spot".
The poem is also questioning the logic that people use when in come to the exsistence of God. despite never seeing the sea, or a moor, people still believe that they exsist, so why should there be people who do not believe in Gods exsistence?
I dont think that self abnegation is evident in this poem, as she is expressing views, told in the first person and doesnt seem to be in denial about anything/ setting aside her own opinions or self interest for the sake of the poem. (however, please correct me if you think imwrong, i didnt pick up on some of the things you mentioned about "hope")

Hope
I know you have already been through this poem but i just had a few things i wanted to check.
'The underlying idea of hope is its affect upon her' - is this affect the fact that it gives her strengh when she is weak and ready to give up? when she asks what "...could abash the little bird" is she asking what experience/situation will push the hope that has stayed with her through extremities, away? so hope is a part of the soul, one that gives with out expecting, and when she is faced with a situation that even hope cannot deal with, her soul will die, maybe?
Her self abnegation here is not clear at the start of the poem, where its jsut a poem about hope, but as it gets further (stanza 3) we get a glimpse of Emily Dickinsons worries that one day hope will not be there?

What do you think? As i said, im awful at getting any kind of meaning out of poems :confused: (im sorry if it seems like iv just rehashed what you said about Hope)I think im finally getting somewhere with this essay now!

[ktd222]

'The underlying idea of hope is its affect upon her' - is this affect the fact that it gives her strengh when she is weak and ready to give up?
No. “Hope” is constant. Whether when we are capable or without capabilities, “Hope” is in us. It’s affect on her is that it asked nothing in return, - not even a crumb – in extreme times.


when she asks what "...could abash the little bird" is she asking what experience/situation will push the hope that has stayed with her through extremities, away?
Yes. But the identification of her is not present yet. It could be anyone’s soul. She’s not asking, but saying that “sore must be the storm/that could abash the little Bird”. She is placing the “soreness” on a storm, not any particular person.


so hope is a part of the soul, one that gives with out expecting, and when she is faced with a situation that even hope cannot deal with, her soul will die, maybe?
I guess not die, because the soul is an abstract thing. So maybe the soul just becomes a hopeless soul.


Her self abnegation here is not clear at the start of the poem, where its jsut a poem about hope, but as it gets further (stanza 3) we get a glimpse of Emily Dickinsons worries that one day hope will not be there?Yes, she is identifiable in the third stanza. The third stanza describes extreme times when she hears “hope.” “Chillest, strangest” - these are extremes in the sense of each word. There is no worry more than there is a stating that “yet, never, in extremity/it asked a crumb – of me.”


What do you think? As i said, im awful at getting any kind of meaning out of poems (im sorry if it seems like iv just rehashed what you said about Hope)I think im finally getting somewhere with this essay now!

I’m at work while responding to your posts. I won’t have a chance to respond until tomorrow…maybe. But I do think you’re getting it. It's no problem. I'm glad to help. And I'm happy your finding a way into your essay.:)

[ktd222]

I’m sorry I didn’t realize I didn’t insert the word “interest.” This is the question you should be asking when reading each of these poems:
I think for purposes pertaining to the essay question, you should keep in mind the location of the speaker’s interest in relation to the idea expressed in each poem.


She may not belive in her religions ideas of what enables one to get to heaven (the idea of pre destiantion, if thats the right word, and general 'good behaviour', and the following of the puritans and the sentimentals guidelines) but she does believe in heaven "I never spoke with God,/Nor visited in heaven;/Yet certain am I of the spot".

I think you’re on to it. This poem is about faith. The self interest comes in from the implication of what she said. The fact that she is certain “of the spot/as if the Checks were given--,” frees her from anyone else’s notion of the existence of God and Heaven. The word “Checks” in this context means vouching, as if we are already given parcels of evidence to the existence of Heaven and God. Do you have questions?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Tell the Truth

I think you can sense the illusion of self abnegation in the tone of the poem. I don’t think it matters more what truth is being told, but the way the truth is told: at a slant. The idea of truth, and how it is told to others, seems to be for the benefit of others: “the truth must dazzle gradually/or every man be blind.” But the speaker is insistent it be told at a “slant.” This removal of the self seems evident because there is no “I” in the poem. But, for me, the idea of this poem revolves around this insistent tone, which we can connect back to Dickinson.

[lyndsey87]

thank you, youve made that so much clearer! i hope you didnt get into trouble for posting on here :) im going to have a go at the essay now i think... but would you mind if i get stuck giving me another hand?! most likely i will need somethings verifying...:blush:

Im still a bit confused about the question, with regards to the idea that her self abnegation is a way of 'forcing herself into our attentions'. i understand the concept behind her self abnegation (thanks to you) but i dont really see how this last bit can be supported. But then i suppose my answer will be a kind of 'i agree to some extent?'

So the general thesis of my argument could be as follows - Dickinson's self abnegation is clear within many of her poems, with her projecting upon the poems her own thoughts towards the subject matter. Her self abnegation and the involvement of her own views within the poems lead Dickinson to further make herself the center of the readers attention by having her own thoughts interlaced through out the poems. The ideas present in the poems can all be traced back to Dickinson herself, thereby making herself the focus of the poems, despite their being a lack of "I" within the poems.
(as iv written this the question has actualy become a lot clearer and i think i get the bit about the 'forcing herself into the center of our attentions' but im not 100% sure)

Does that sound like i am along the right kind of lines?!

[ktd222]

I sent you a private message. Just click on the "private message" tab on the right upper corner.

[ktd222]

Im still a bit confused about the question, with regards to the idea that her self abnegation is a way of 'forcing herself into our attentions'.

I wrote this in an earlier post:
Dickinson uses self-abnegation to free a belief or principle from illusion: bringing those ideas to the forefront of our attention: but with that comes an illustration of its affliction/infliction on her, or her idea of how the idea should be expressed.

In the end, the ideas of her poems are exemplified through her...and so we can think about the ideas of her poem without thinking about its expression through her.

[lyndsey87]

Thank you all for your help, and glad that i found this forum, its been a life saver :)