The Scientific Miracles

[rinard]

I’m not a religious but astonished to know that Quran contains unbelievable scientific facts discovered just in the last century.

This is really amazing.

· Astronomy!
· Mountains!
· Human Embryology!
· Oceans And Seas!
· The Movement Of Clouds!
· The Cerebrum!
· The Shape Of The Earth!
· The Expansion Of The Universe!
· The Sensory Characteristic Of The Skin!
· Formation Of Iron!
· The Lowest Part On The Face Of The Earth!
· The Sequence Of Day And Night!
· The Snow Age!
· New Diseases!
· Cnn Top Ten Discoveries Of 1998

You can find more info of the Scientists Declaration on the following sites:
http://www.islampedia.com/ijaz/Html/Scientist_All/Index.htm

http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1.htm
http://www.science4islam.com/
http://islamicity.com/science/
http://www.islamland.org/articles1/a006.htm

###############################################

http://www.islampedia.com/ijaz/Html/Scientist_All/Index.htm

Scientists Declaration

· Keith L.Moore
· E. Marshall Johnson
· T.V.N. Persaud
· Joe Leigh Simpson
· Gerald C. Goeringer
· Alfred Kroner
· Yushidi Kusan
· Professor Armstrong
· William Hay
· Durja Rao
· Professor Siaveda
· Tejatat Tejasen
· Dr. Maurice Bucaille


Thread moved to Religious Texts from General Chat.

[IWilKikU]

And I'm no forum moderater, but I'm astonished that your *** hasn't gotten banned for spamming!!!

[Logos]

IWilKikU, rinard is sharing links to other sites. He doesn't get banned for this.

[Stanislaw]

Whats wrong with his post, it is an interesting topic, worthy of discussion?

[rinard]

Maybe because of these scientific miracles Islam becomes the fastest-growing religion in America and in the world? Although religion is no longer dominates everyday life in Western society.


A NATION CHALLENGED: AMERICAN MUSLIMS; Islam Attracts Converts By the Thousand, Drawn Before and After Attacks
By JODI WILGOREN
Source: The New York Times: October 22, 2001, Monday
Section: National Desk

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/3016/fastest.htm

"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in America, a guide and pillar of stability for many of our people..." Hillary Rodman Clinton, Los Angeles Times, May 31, 1996, p.3

Famous people are affected too:

Singer "Cat Stevens" Hear his story as told him
http://www.islamtomorrow.net/converts/yusuf_islam.htm

[den]

Heh, and here I thought they were their own `gods'.



Famous people are affected too:

[IWilKikU]

I apologize. I thought rinard was showing up to post one post and than dissapearing after he advertised the above websites. That happens from time to time. Sorry :)

[Logos]

There is no immediate commercial value/solicitation tone to the links that rinard posted.


"Spam is unsolicited e-mail or posts, often of a commercial nature, sent indiscriminately to multiple mailing lists, individuals, or newsgroups; junk e-mail."

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=spam

[crisaor]

Originally posted by rinard
Maybe because of these scientific miracles Islam becomes the fastest-growing religion in America and in the world? Although religion is no longer dominates everyday life in Western society.

Is that so? I would have thought quite the opposite, with the media around the world telling how bad the muslim terrorists are, and all that crap.

[Stanislaw]

I am of the same mind set as crisor, I thought that religion was getting a pretty bad rap lately.

[rinard]

Islam is a religion, not a terrorist group. The media classifies Muslims as "terrorists," "highjackers" and "kidnappers." So why would anyone even look at Islam? Why are so many priests and preachers going to Islam?

David Karesh was a Christian, shall we ban all Christian momentous?
When you compare all of Islam to these terrorists, you essentially say every Sunday clothed bible reading Christian is a Branch Dividian fundamentalist. The linking of such actions to Islam or the Qur’an is incorrect. Rather, such inhumane actions clearly contradict the teachings of Islam - just as the bombing at Oklahoma City by Timothy McVeigh and the killings that occurred at Abraham Mosque, Hebron - Philistine by Dr. Baruch Goldstein clearly contradict the teachings of Christianity and Judaism, respectively.

[IWilKikU]

Karesh recruited at my College!

[rinard]

From what I've heard from different friends of mine who have converted to Islam, there are a few main reasons for most conversions.

1. Islam is a religious lifestyle, not just a quick Sunday morning church visit and a label. Although some Christians do pray before each meal and spend much time with their Bible, etc.many don't in the USA. Islam is something that can't be shunted into a few spare hours. You pray five times a day. Your dress code is affected; even your food choices are explained in the Qur'an. Many converts like it because they feel actively involved and as if they are truly religious.

2. For women, it is a big and welcome change from the "in your face" sexuality of western culture. Women are not required by the Qur'an to veil. They are required to dress modestly and it is *recommended* that they cover their hair. However, most do veil and some go farther with niquab (the face screen) or other traditional clothes. Women dressed like this consider themselves marked as religious women, not easy dates. They don't get hit on. No one gawks at their bodies. They are clearly off limits sexually and many that I personally know say it is liberating not to have to conform to western standards of sexy dress, makeup and spending so much time and money on appearance. You buy a five-dollar hijab, put your hair in a ponytail and cover, wear long skirt and a tunic shirt -you're set.

3. Islam is also growing because many people are not satisfied with Christianity. They feel it is too liberal, too fluid and changes for the culture. Islam on the other hand is more rigid and does not as a whole allow much for modern changes and the whims of society. Many like it because they feel other religions have loose standards.

That's what I got from the new Muslimah's group at Yahoo, Islamway women's board and a few other friends of mine. Stats taken by many college groups say that women convert 4 times more often then men.


This is an example:


Why Are Women Turning to Islam
At a time when Islam is faced with hostile media coverage particularly where the status of women in Islam is concerned, it may be quite surprising to learn that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, and even more ironic to discover that the majority of converts to Islam are WOMEN.
The status of women is society is neither a new issue nor is it a fully settled one, and where Islam is mentioned, for many the term 'Muslim Women' prompts images of exhausted mothers chained to the stove, 'victims' suppressed in a life of indoctrination, frantic to be westernized and so on. Others will go to great lengths to explain how the hijaab is an obstacle, clouding the mind, and comment that female converts are either brainwashed, stupid or traitors to their sex. I reject such accusations and pose to them the following question: why is it that so many women who have been born and brought in the so called 'civilized' societies of Europe and America are willing to reject their 'liberty' and 'independence' to embrace a religion that supposedly oppresses them and is widely assumed to be prejudicial to them?
As a Christian convert to Islam, I can only present my personal experience and reasons for rejecting the 'freedom' that women claim to have in this society in favor of the only Religion that truly liberates women by giving us a status and position, which is completely unique when compared with that of non-Muslim counterparts. Before coming to Islam, I had strong feminist tendencies and recognized that where the women was concerned, a lot of shuffling around had been going on, yet without being able to pin her on the social map. The problem was ongoing: new 'women's issues' being raised without the previous ones being satisfactorily resolved. Like the many women who shared my background, I would accuse Islam of being a sexist religion, discriminating, oppressing and giving men the greater privileges. All this coming from a person who did not even know Islam, one who had been blinded due to ignorance and had accepted this deliberately distorted definition of Islam.

However, despite my criticisms of Islam, inwardly I wasn't satisfied with my own status as a woman in this society. It seemed to me that society would define such terms as 'liberty' and 'freedom' and then these definitions were accepted by women without us even attempting to question or challenge them. There was clearly a great contradiction between what women were told in theory and what actually happens in practice. The more I pondered, the greater emptiness I felt within. I was slowly beginning to reach a stage where my dissatisfaction with my status as a women in this society, was really a reflection of my greater dissatisfaction with society itself. Everything seemed to be degenerating backwards, despite the claims that the 2000 was going to be the decade of success and prosperity. Something vital seemed to be missing from my life and nothing would fill this vacuum. Being a Christian did not do anything for me, and I began to question the validity of only remembering God one day a week - Sundays! As with many other Christians too, I had become disillusioned with the hypocrisy of the Church and was becoming increasingly unhappy with the concept of Trinity and the deification of Jesus. Eventually, I began to look into Islam. At first, I was only interested in looking at those issues, which specifically dealt with women. I was surprised. What I read and learned taught me a lot about myself as a woman, and also about where the real oppression of women lies: in every other system and way of life outside of Islam. Muslim women have been given their rights in every aspect of the religion with clear definitions of their role in society - as had men - with no injustice against either of them. As Allah says: Whoever does deeds of righteousness, be they male or female, and have faith, they will enter paradise and not the least injustice will be done to them [Nisaa 4:124]
So having amended my misconceptions about the true status of women in Islam, I was now looking further. I wanted to find that thing which was going to fill the vacuum in my life. My attention was drawn towards the beliefs and practices of Islam. It was only through establishing the fundamentals that I would understand where to turn and what to prioritize. These are often the areas, which receive little attention or controversy in society, and when studying the Islamic Creed, it becomes clear why this is the case: such concise, faultless and wholly comprehensive details cannot be found elsewhere.

[Jessika]

At first, I was only interested in looking at those issues, which specifically dealt with women. I was surprised. What I read and learned taught me a lot about myself as a woman, and also about where the real oppression of women lies: in every other system and way of life outside of Islam. Muslim women have been given their rights in every aspect of the religion with clear definitions of their role in society - as had men - with no injustice against either of them.

And so, what is the role of women in the Islam?

Another question, i ask it in general, do you need to believe in a religion in order to be satisfied with your life? ('cos i did believe in a religion when i was a child but not anymore now)
i don't think so. Moreover, do you need to get told your position/role in life from a religion? What if you only want to live as you consider the right way?

Maybe i'm missing your point, i dont know, may be i have misunderstood what you have posted, but i can't find a real answer why women are converting to Islam. Could you please make that more clear to me? or may be i should read your post better :goof:

Anyway, it is interesting that women are the ones who convert 4 times more than men. I would like to know why and from what religion they convert and most important, what they think.



2. For women, it is a big and welcome change from the "in your face" sexuality of western culture. Women are not required by the Qur'an to veil. They are required to dress modestly and it is *recommended* that they cover their hair. However, most do veil and some go farther with niquab (the face screen) or other traditional clothes. Women dressed like this consider themselves marked as religious women, not easy dates. They don't get hit on. No one gawks at their bodies. They are clearly off limits sexually and many that I personally know say it is liberating not to have to conform to western standards of sexy dress, makeup and spending so much time and money on appearance. You buy a five-dollar hijab, put your hair in a ponytail and cover, wear long skirt and a tunic shirt -you're set.

Sorry but i find this a very very weak reason for converting to any religion.
That would be a possible reason -also- for women becoming nuns in catholic countries? i dont know, i dont think it is a real reason to convert to any religion.
By the way, if you dont want to "conform to western standards of sexy dress, makeup and spending so much time and money on appearance", just dont follow up these standards. It is not compulsory!!
Really, I dont see the relation to converting to any religion because of that.


3. Islam is also growing because many people are not satisfied with Christianity. They feel it is too liberal, too fluid and changes for the culture. Islam on the other hand is more rigid and does not as a whole allow much for modern changes and the whims of society. Many like it because they feel other religions have loose standards.


Ahm.. sorry.. Christianity too liberal? I think gays and lesbians won't agree with that. Nor raped women who are not allowed to abort. Nor african people dying of AIDS because the -at least- Catholic Church doesn't allow the use of condoms..

Anyway, what is society if not changing through time? That's the way to advance (it can result a positive or negative change, but any change means knowledge of our human situation. We learn from our mistakes). Maybe that's why i dont really like religions too much (though i respect them): they are too conservative, opposed to the changes of human beings (thoughts, feelings.. ways of live.. )

PD: when writing this i'm particularly thinking about Catholic/Christian and Islamic religions.

[atiguhya padma]

In D J Taylor's recent biography of Orwell, he says that Orwell correctly saw that one of the main problems with the 20th C was that it had largely abandoned the notion of God and religion, and had unsuccessfully tried to replace the spiritual void that such abandonment had created, with political systems, ie totalitarianism, which of course had failed.

Now here is my point: the growth of the Islamic faith in Western society is probably a manifestation of the absence of rigid belief systems in our everyday lives. It is as if we need to believe in something universal and greater than us, and as Christianity has become more liberal, so people entrench themselves in fundamentalism.

One thing that seems characteristic of Islam, from what little I know of it, is that it seems incredibly rule-based. It is probably one of the most disciplinarian of religious systems of thought. I once saw a documentary on UK TV about the rise of Islam in America, and all the interviewees (who had crossed over from xtianity to Islam) focussed on the benefits of rules and regulations in everyday life. Of course what this really means is that people don't want to think for themselves. They are intellectually lazy.

I have now come to accept that as a race we will never become sufficiently adult to abandon religious belief systems in any significant numbers, and take responsibility ourselves. In the end, we will have to encourage/discourage the lesser of the religious evils.

Regarding the role of women in this conversion, it does seem to me rather inexplicable why such numbers of women are turning to Islam, but then, I have seen this claim in a number of articles and documentaries, and am inclined to believe it.

AP

[Jessika]

Regarding the role of women in this conversion, it does seem to me rather inexplicable why such numbers of women are turning to Islam, but then, I have seen this claim in a number of articles and documentaries, and am inclined to believe it.

Yes, i'm not questioning Rinard's description of the situation. I didn't know that women are converting to Islam 4 times more than men.
What I say -maybe you can help me- is that in her explanation of this convertion, I can't find any examples of 'ok, women are converting because of this and this and that, because they think that for example..etc'
That's why it seems a weak argument to me (though i believe the fact, i question the explanation, sorry :confused: )

For example, Rinard says:

What I read and learned taught me a lot about myself as a woman, and also about where the real oppression of women lies: in every other system and way of life outside of Islam.

"(...)the real oppression of women lies: in every other system and way of life outside of Islam" I think this is too radical. Too radical. It needs a very good argument for me to understand. I think there is not one unique way for not being an oppresed women as well as in every religion or situation there are women oppresed. It's my opinion.
I would like to know what readings, what texts, fragments you are referring to, so that i myself can read them and can make me an idea of this. Please :D


Muslim women have been given their rights in every aspect of the religion with clear definitions of their role in society - as had men - with no injustice against either of them.

- So, what rights and roles does Xty give you (men and women) and what rights and roles does Islam give you (men and women), what is the difference? (i really dont know, no sarcasm)


- If anyone can tell me the/some reasons why this convertion of women is happening.. I would be grateful!! Thanks!! ( i need examples!!)

[subterranean]

well I suppose it's not only the Quran wich got the so called scientific miracles...many parts of the bible are also related to scientific stuffs and many of them can be proven by historical evidences..that of course if u want to see it objectively..

I have a feeling that rinard was a new muslim believer?!

[atiguhya padma]

I would just like to point out that the phrase ‘scientific miracle’ is an oxymoron. Miracles are defined as mysterious, inexplicable events, whereas when an event is scientifically explained, it both loses its mystery and its inexplicability.

AP

[subterranean]

scientific miracle: miracle which can be explained scientifically...
o yea...sounds akward enough..but perhaps rinard;s point is like this Quran is (considered by him/her) as a miracle given by God, well since all the contents were given directly by God through prophet Mohammad, nevertheless (many parts of ) the contents can be explained scientifically..

[baddad]

Not to put to fine a point on it, and certainly not wanting to disparage any particular religious text, but it seems to me that searching for the superiority of one religious doctrine (and doctrines/beliefs are what we are discussing here, not miracles) over another unnecessarily confuses the whole issue of human co-existence with spiritual beliefs. Humans have a tendency to manipulate doctorines to suit their own purposes, and often demonize conflicting doctorines as a way of promoting their own ideals and beliefs. I am not hereby condemning ANY religion as more or less guilty of this offense than any other. But it is individual human actions which dictate the quality of social interaction and harmony of peoples, and not religious dictates. If such a thing as a 'God' exists, idealistic dictates of any stripe seem rather irrelevant. And if there is a 'God', there is only one, and he does not differentiate as to who's dogma is the most relevant, most true, the least offensive etc. Some women/men face discrimination in every existing and historically existing society on earth. It seems to me that there can be no one single answer to the smooth interaction of the energized miasma that is humanity. Spirituality is meant to be personal, a one on one with God, not an organized,politicized control mechanism to tame the masses.

[subterranean]

...Humans have a tendency to manipulate doctorines to suit their own purposes, and often demonize conflicting doctorines as a way of promoting their own ideals and beliefs. Spirituality is meant to be personal, a one on one with God, not an organized,politicized control mechanism to tame the masses.

A former friend of mine is a Seth Materialist, he embrace this belief cause he said this belief allows him to be himself (if you interested seach the internet for this belief)...without any rules and stuff and he mock othe religions with strict rules (like Islam and christian), and i told him that he follow that belief cause it suits him, no rules to follow no supperior being to worship..i dont say that he's wrong by doing so, i just feel that sometime people do choose things that justify his interest/purposes

[baddad]

..didn't mean to imply any mocking of anyone else's beliefs SUB, and sorry if I have crossed a line here.....a thousand pardons please...

My own beliefs tend to the North American aboriginals connection to the earth and everything on it, the interconnectedness between all things......In reality I have chosen my beliefs to suite my own feelings of one-ness with the universe. I'm blaming it on the fact that I am a Taurus, an earth sign.....and a stubborn little ****** who refuses to believe what he cannot see....

But the aboriginals believe in miracles as well, spirits inhabiting what would be considered by others as inanimate objects and/or soulless creatures, and the miracles occur as humans interact with these guiding spirits......
peace and love my friend......

[Bleeding Pawn]

From what I've heard from different friends of mine who have converted to Islam, there are a few main reasons for most conversions.

2. For women, it is a big and welcome change from the "in your face" sexuality of western culture. Women are not required by the Qur'an to veil. They are required to dress modestly and it is *recommended* that they cover their hair. However, most do veil and some go farther with niquab (the face screen) or other traditional clothes. Women dressed like this consider themselves marked as religious women, not easy dates. They don't get hit on. No one gawks at their bodies. They are clearly off limits sexually and many that I personally know say it is liberating not to have to conform to western standards of sexy dress, makeup and spending so much time and money on appearance. You buy a five-dollar hijab, put your hair in a ponytail and cover, wear long skirt and a tunic shirt -you're set.

For a person who is going through Islamic Doctrines nowadays, I have some queries regarding your statement on the veil which has some flaws ( the Law or your statement). If you are somehow active i would ask in private not in public lest it be deemed offensive to your community.

[cafolini]

A scientific miracle is for example the discovery of penicilin injected into an ignorant fellow to cure his pneumonia. Another one is retarded Einstein trying to find the unified field theory. The former coexist with the latter opposing each other in root but having ignorance in common. May God help the miraculous. LOL

[The Atheist]

I’m not a religious but astonished to know that Quran contains unbelievable scientific facts discovered just in the last century.

Pity this is such an old thread - nice bump!

Just in case anyone thought the OP was right, the idea is not all new, and it's been refuted many times.

Here is but one expose (http://mukto-mona.net/Articles/skm/embryology.htm), written by biological scientist Dr Syed Kamran Mirza.

[cacian]

Interesting thread. To suggest miracle is science is like ingesting god is the messiah.
I am not sure miracles are anything but superstitious believe part of the premonition packages. I consider science the hand that forces the miracle to belief.

[Bleeding Pawn]

Pity this is such an old thread - nice bump!

Just in case anyone thought the OP was right, the idea is not all new, and it's been refuted many times.

Here is but one expose (http://mukto-mona.net/Articles/skm/embryology.htm), written by biological scientist Dr Syed Kamran Mirza.

Thank You for the site it was an interesting read. Regarding the Vedas, well i have already being told this ancient literature holds wisdom revealed many years before Jesus. Many of my companions advised me to go for the Four Vedas and Upanishad before any, when i told them of my plan to study Hinduism and they have promised me to provide me these books and lectures too.

[Adamite]

About the meaning of Scientific Miracle I am sure it is referring to the 'miraculous' way in which verses of the Koran seem to coincide with modern science. So in this context the term scientific miracle is correct. I agree with Jassica that there weren't any one good or solid reason included in the article, just pointed out a way a few benefits of a Muslim woman's lifestyle (in the West not in the Islamic world) compared to that of the more 'sexually liberal' image.

"Muslim women have been given their rights in every aspect of the religion with clear definitions of their role in society - as had men - with no injustice against either of them. As Allah says: Whoever does deeds of righteousness, be they male or female, and have faith, they will enter paradise and not the least injustice will be done to them [Nisaa 4:124]"

For one thing this verse doesn't point to any special position of the female but that people in general will be fairly judged. Concerning other verses of the Koran that some argue is the basis of equality, if you have a look at different Koranic translations you'll see that they don't all share the liberal views. In fact most of the common used translations are very negative like the verse allowing men to beat their wives. Although some of the more modern translations have pointed out that these verses are wrongly translated and back their claims with linguistic and historic evidence unlike traditional Muslims who's views can be quite ridiculous. This goes only to prove how religion when institutionalized and mass marketed fails, you see even the Muslims who are really benefiting from the religion are either living in the West or a more liberal society than most of the Muslim World which is rather backwards. Also I think it is silly how when trying to market Islam they always compare it with Christianity, that doesn't really help Islam because Christianity's reputation isn't as it was and to compare that with Islam you're basically saying 'we're a little better than those guys' and the big problem is you're mostly talking to people who aren't with those guys in the first place.

I think the reason why so many people are converting to Islam is like it has been implied by some of the comments here; people are growing more and more unhappy with the stern materialism of the West. It's part of the human nature to seek some form of spirituality, think about it, even atheists often believe in fantastical things even though not necessarily theological. People have an inbuilt drive to be spiritual at least to some degree and the more you deny then that the more the urge increases and that's why I think people in the West go for Islam; they're tired of the meaningless lifestyle so commonly promoted. By meaningless I mean meaning beyond the basic human desires like wealth, partnership and status that once achieved leave the person asking 'now what?'

But do we really need one specific way of life to be able to live well? Islam does well in the West because like many other religions it basically has its own version of utopia which while seems to have failed in the middle east, when filtered from the past mistakes and merged with Western ideals becomes a balanced 'way-of-life'. It was in the Western world where people realized religion and government don't work well together and that religion can seldom fit in any one neat package and this at least experience tells us is true because we see the effects of if it in history and even the present world (Iran, Saudi, Israel). Can you imagine what kind of a country the US would be if it was a fundamentalist Christian nation? Every occupation would be a crusade! It is the same with Islam and any other religion, they can work miracles as faiths of individuals but when branded and given jurisdiction in other areas of life they reek havoc.

[The Atheist]

About the meaning of Scientific Miracle I am sure it is referring to the 'miraculous' way in which verses of the Koran seem to coincide with modern science. So in this context the term scientific miracle is correct.

I'm 100 certain that's what was meant by the OP.

It's wrong,though, and my link points that out. Claims that the Quran revealed or uses scientific fact are fallacy.

[hypatia_]

Now here is my point: the growth of the Islamic faith in Western society is probably a manifestation of the absence of rigid belief systems in our everyday lives. It is as if we need to believe in something universal and greater than us, and as Christianity has become more liberal, so people entrench themselves in fundamentalism.

Totally agree. People need faith in something because there are too many existential questions out there. It seems as a result, religion is cyclical.