I'm here to read this book with the Love of My Life [Archive]

Weems

03-04-2007, 10:59 AM

Supposedly I am reading an unabridged version. In Chapter 2, Sir Walter Elliot is considering three places to move to from Kellynch Hall. Why does it say Bath is 50 miles rather than kilometers? I thought the English used the metric system!

Anne seems to be oblivious to the social stigma of the debt that is swallowing the estate. Somehow Lady Russell is very aware of this and other conditions of Anne: "Anne had been too little from home, too little seen. Her spirits were not high. A larger society would improve them. [Lady Russell] wanted her to be more known." That sounds a lot like me growing up.

Weems

03-04-2007, 03:05 PM

As I read Persuasion by Jane Austen, I am reminded that marriage has been an important element of life even from the time of Adam, even though he had but one choice in the matter.

And I'm sure, given the lack of choice, he still felt the human emotion of Love which is still elusive to concrete definition.

Nevertheless, while choice, now, is in abundance I find that like the man Adam there is but one choice. I find that to be an interesting observation, especially given how hard it is to find true love.

It is here in these thoughts that I find myself this morning: I believe in and like being married. My current marriage lacks the emotional and spiritual depth that I have a need for. I cannot speak of things intellectual or write that which reflects the things of my soul and expect a response that resonates better than the hollow thud of a large drum with a head that has not been tightened. I can expect questions of my soul to go unanswered and requests of my mind to be tepidly ignored until the threat of expectation has disolved.

For 17 years have I lived a fantasy where I thought that if I tell others that "I have a great marriage" that the greatness will eventually be realized. Having returned after 14 months of struggling against insurgents in the Middle East, and seeing three years pass with no improvement, I realize, finally, that I either accept that it will never change and figure out how to exist in a place where my expectations will forever go unmet or I get out.

But I like being married. I feel like I made a bad judgment in choice. But here's the rub: She has been easy to live with, has shown improvement as a mom (remarkable improvement in the last 12 months with a son entering the "tween-age" years of 10-12), and is a generally agreeable person. Most people would love to have a spouse like that.

But as I have developed as a person, I have found that I want more emotional response and spiritual connectedness. I want to talk of things that don't seem to matter on the face of it but that explore themes, imagery, and symbols of life. I'm not looking for this intensity every day, but I want to have access to it.

And when a person finds that connectedness, that emotional and spiritual depth, outside the marriage in a person of the opposite sex, then that creates a new, vast pallet of emotions that must be dealt with: spally captures some of this in her posting of a friend's poem on May 20, 2005 called "my love...my life". (see www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4594)

So as I begin Persuasion, I can see from the postings that there are a variety of parallel's to finding your true love and, for a variety of reasons, not being able to realize the potential of that love. What a frustrating place to be....

khalakh_the_3rd

03-05-2007, 01:41 PM

Why does it say Bath is 50 miles rather than kilometers? I thought the English used the metric system!

Only since the 1970's. And we still use miles more than kilometres.

Weems

03-05-2007, 07:13 PM

Thank you for that explanation!

LizzyBennet

03-07-2007, 11:35 AM

Weems

03-07-2007, 01:22 PM

Yes, the book picks up about 7 years after Jane was persuaded to not marry Wentworth. She seems to have suffered the entire time without really knowing it...like a low-grade infection that saps at the body's ability to function at optimal performance.

I'm interested in how Mrs. Clay got involved with the family. I need to go back and look. But clearly Austen has reverse-stacked the relationship much like Mark Twain did in Huckleberry Finn (I think) where the characters qualities were in reverse to their actual character. King, with that name, was the lowest on the ladder while (I think) the black man was the highest in terms of quality of human being.

So we have Elizabeth paired with Mrs. Clay, who is beneath her in social status (not to mention a snaggled tooth to make things worse!) where Anne is brought under Lady Russell's, who has elevated rank, watchful eye and social care.

Is this about opposites attracting and the natural pairing of weak and strong? Certainly, those in love are paired weak to strong but those, if it is healthy, each have strengths to offset weaknesses of the other. Mutual admiration.

LizzyBennet

03-07-2007, 02:16 PM

I'm not sure about Huck Finn, but I should remember. I think I read that in HS and picked through it with a fine-tooth comb with an English teacher who extracted every detail from literature.
I think everyone has their own set of strengths and weaknesses, and relationships "work" when we not only use our own strengths to fortify the other's weaknesses, but we also understand and accept the other's weaknesses and admire their strengths. The trick, I think, is always remembering and appreciating what it was you fell in love with at the beginning. In my experience, I have noticed that there can be things you accept and admire to begin with, and then you eventually grow to resent those very same things. I think that happens when you start to fall out of love with someone. I prefer being in love and enjoying all the wonderful feelings that go along with it.

Weems

03-07-2007, 08:09 PM

I found references to the duke and the king but ran out of time to compare it to any black man that might be a character. But the references to black men are thruout the text.

Just after the start of Chapter 6 I read something that caused me to reflect on how I was feeling last week and part of this was: "yet, with all this experience, she believed she must now submit to feel that another lesson in the art of knowing our own nothingness beyond our own circle, was become necessary for her".

I felt like I recognized my own nothingness moreso than ever. It was a tough way to feel and I felt it as it seemed like the soul was ripped from my body because of folly. Terrible feeling of tremendous loss not just of respect, admiration, love and a host of other things, but of interest and zest in me from another. Major feeling of abandonment. Something that not even an unacknowledged blooming azalia would cure.

So what causes two to fall out of love? Feelings of hate? Feelings that distance must be established even if one is to remain in a person's life? Like a dad? Like a high school friend? What is it that causes that old friend to be relegated to arms-length status?

OK, time to go for a bit. It's been a busy day with lots to do this evening. I'm just glad I have the time-saving device of my phone that allows me to immediately post thoughts on this book as they come to me and where I can read comments from others.

LizzyBennet

03-08-2007, 10:17 AM

I apologize for the extra "T" in Bennett. I can't figure out how to fix it!

I think I can shed some light on your questions in the short time I have. Whereas Lizzy says to Darcy, "I am sorry, sir, for the pain I have caused. It was unconsciously done," she was unaware of his feelings and therefore had no idea that she was tormenting him.
Surely, he must have had repeated indications of what caused harm, and yet he continued to inflict pain and suffering of the highest proportions until the gentle, sweet, and sensitive soul of a said True Love was stamped and crushed with complete and utter disregard. If that is not reason to keep one at arm's length, then I don't know what is.

Weems

03-08-2007, 11:06 AM

Regarding correcting the "T", try clicking on the "search" and type "edit profile"....

Weems

03-08-2007, 07:01 PM

I went in and tried to change the spelling on the name and I, too, could not navigate to a place to change the user name. Looked everywhere and tried a variety of searches. Sorry I was of no use on that suggestion....

I found the initial reference to Mrs Clay in the searchable text but could not cut and paste it. It is the last 2 paragraphs of Chapter 2. Austen paints a terrible picture of the social damage Mrs Clay could wreak on Elizabeth and believes that removal from Kellynch Hall (leaving Mrs Clay behind) would bring more suitable people into Elizabeth's circle. This was very important to Lady Russell, even though she got no consideration from Elizabeth thruout their relationship.

It seems that Mrs. Clay went on to follow Elizabeth t Bath or to London, but I can't remember now. That's another thing I need to look into.

Logos

03-08-2007, 07:34 PM

I apologize for the extra "T" in Bennett. I can't figure out how to fix it!No you can't do it yourself, if you want your member name changed send me a PM.

LizzyBennet

03-09-2007, 09:41 AM

I am really getting into this book now. The anticipation of their first meeting was incredible. I couldn't put the book down. The style of writing is so much more captivating now than at the beginning of the novel. I can't believe there was just a glance at each other, and then it was over. They probably BOTH think the other indifferent. I love it!

Thank you for dropping my "T!"

Weems

03-09-2007, 11:43 AM

What a great chapter with the brief meeting of the two! And it seemed as if the entire chapter was a flurry of activity and emotion. The hurt child, Mary's professed inadequacey as a mother, the build up of Wentworth's visit and Mary's comment: "You were so altered he should not have known you again."

That comment crushed me as I read it, knowing what it would do to the tender package of feelings held tight by Anne. Anne's reactions confirmed it and I, too, felt a pallet of emotions similar to Anne's. Never say things like that. Ever.

Further, while appearances have their place, what attracts me most is the soul and the intent thereof. I have been hurt before. And I am hurt now from love and all the consequences of being in it. But in that hurt I must consider intent. The love of my life has hurt me before. will hurt me again, and will never be guilty of intent. If I do not see it any other way then I am leaving myself wide open to losing or letting go what is so very precious to me. Even if it's maintained from a distance, or, like in Anne and Wentworth's case, the separation is in time, I will maintain. It is the soul of the girl that is most important to me. The beauty of that form won't ever change. And to hear it speak of discoveries and observations here does my heart good.

What's more, the fond feelings of friendship must be preserved. Must. Must...

All the feelings of being blissfully in love can be recaptured, perhaps not with one who a person has fallen out of love with, but with an understanding of intent. There is more to write on this subject, but I am sitting in my car in my garage and need to go shower and start my day.

Lizzy, never doubt that the thread of life described by Dickens in A Tale of Two Cities in the chapter called Echoing Footsteps is the thread that connects family.... Never doubt. Never.

LizzyBennet

03-09-2007, 12:03 PM

I read that same passage this morning where Mary told Anne what Wentworth said about her. I felt my chest tighten, and thought how comforting to have in my life a man who has told me repeatedly, in more than one way, that he will never forget who I am. That poor girl!
The love of your life must have strong emotions and convictions, no doubt very tender as well. Maybe she only lashes out when she feels she has been disregarded. Intent to hurt, I understand, may not be there, but there must also be intent to be conscientious enough to not cause harm by accident. There must be presence of mind and consideration of the potential for harm to be caused so as to be avoided.
I am going to wait for my true love. If Anne can do it, so can I.

Weems

03-09-2007, 10:14 PM

It is conviction like that that binds a people together. Wow....

Weems

03-11-2007, 09:33 AM

Toward the end of chapter 7 when Mary tells Anne about the comment Wentworth made about her, Anne "...soon began to rejoice that she had heard them. They were of sobering tendency; they allayed agitation; they composed, and consequently must make her happier." The next paragraph describes Anne's thoughts about how the conversation with Mary and Wentworth went and she made certain conclusions without any applifying conversation with Wentworth.

To me, Anne was trying to protect herself from the deep feelings she had by justifying away those feelings in the face of a perceived position the Wentworth had taken for her (notwithstanding the remark from Mary which could have been a power play). I think Anne was looking for "Poison" to hang her feelings of rejection and, maybe, hate on. I hope that as the plot develops we find that Anne was wrong in all or part and the Wentworth too was trying to protect himself by not showing his true feelings.

In the last few paragraphs of chap 7, Wentworth sounded very similar to Wickham in P&P when he is making fun of himself in the ribbon shop about ribbons and buckles. Wentworth wsa refering to the type of girl he would marry and was building a case for not needing much in the way of a woman. He was looking to be contradicted, but the last paragraph seems to really show his true feelings. I wrote in the margin, "Will anything do? Anyone? Anne is still very much on his mind...."

It follows in Chapter 8: "They had no conversation together, no intercourse but what the commonest civility required. ...there could have been no two hearts so open, no tastes so similar, no feelings so in unison, no countenances so beloved. Now they were as strangers; nay, worse than strangers, for they could never become acquainted. It was a perpetual estrangement."

THAT is true love! Their thoughts are on the other, but they are refusing to talk!!

I also have a theory on Charles Hayter that I will write about later.

Weems

03-12-2007, 11:18 AM

I just finished Chapter 11. What a wonderful book! One thing I've noticed and I want to see if there is any relevence. *singing to "Records" right now!*

That thing is the use of names. I haven't fully developed this yet but I want to throw it out for consideration. First is that there has been a lot of buzz about Wentworth and Loiusa and Henrietta. He has been "courting these two and the bases of their names are male: Louis and Henry. I want to see if there is anything there as I read. Second is his name: Wentworth. Went worth. Went, as in left. Worth as in value. Was there value in his leaving? Lastly, and this is where it started: Charles Hayter. Is Hayter a noun or a verb? (Hater) I look forward to seeing if there is any substance to my thoughts!

Also, sentance length. I had an English teacher in high school who made us write sentences that were at least 25 words. James Fenimore Cooper in his Last of the Mohicans and Dickens in his Tale of Two Cities both had incredible sentence structure. In Chapter 11, Austen describes the city of Lyme. The paragraph is 3 sentences. The last two sentences are the description. The 2nd is about 138 word and the 3rd is about 144 if you count the articles. That kind of writing amazes me! My English teacher said that sentences have to be fully developed to be effective in writing. Not true. See? *Laughling at my own humor!*:lol:

LizzyBennet

03-12-2007, 11:42 AM

So far in this book, the time is not just right for them to be re-connected. I am currently at the start of Chapter 9.

Here are some of my perceptions to this point:
She still thinks he looks good and won't deny it just because she thinks he thinks she looks worse. She can't convince herself otherwise.

She thinks he has decided that she has a feeble mind because she allowed herself to be persuaded by others to end their relationship. She says, "Her power with him was gone forever." She may not be out of his thoughts, but he wants "any pleasing young woman who came in his way, excepting Anne Elliot. This was his only secret exception."

She is certain, however, that he must remember their relationship. "Anne felt the utter impossibility, from her knowledge of his mind, that he could be unvisited by remembrance any more than herself." She seems shocked that they could once be so close and share so much together and now are like strangers. He treats her as though they were never anything. He offers her her seat back when she returns to the room, and she feels, "his cold politeness, his ceremonious grace, were worse than any thing."
But I wonder what she expects when he is probably thinking the same of her behavior towards him. It is a situation where someone needs to put themselves in a vulnerable position and find out what the other's true feelings are. He could still be suffering and secretly madly in love with her!

LizzyBennet

03-12-2007, 01:03 PM

Anne and Wentworth: So close and yet so far....

LizzyBennet

03-12-2007, 06:09 PM

I will be interested in looking closer at the names!

Weems

03-12-2007, 10:22 PM

I'm backing up to chapter 9! Looking forward to slowing down a little!

While at the gym on an exercise bike I started back thru 9. I noticed my note and underling at the end of 8: "His cold politeness, his ceremonious grace, were worse than anything." I wrote "Ugh!" Seems like we both saw that!

So Charles Hayter is introduced. Because he is undeveloped and because Wentworth seems so dashing, all I could think of was "HA!" when he discovered that Henrietta was smitten by Wentworth. I'll watch to see if any sympathy is generated in Hayter as he is developed as a character.

I've also noticed that Lady Russell has dissappeared for now along with Elizabeth, Mrs, Clay and Walter Elliot who should all be in Bath right now. Will they come back into play? he asked inquisitively with an inquisitive brow....

Another "HA!" for Charles Hayter in the middle of page 54: "Henrietta fully thought so herself, before Cpt Wentworth came; but fromthat time Cousin Charles had been much forgotten." HA!

The next paragraph shows that Anne is NOT a disinterested third-party observer in the affairs between Wentworth, Louisa and Henrietta.

Watch for references to "brother" and "sister" as at the top and bottom of 54. That really made my brain do loops until I realized that even in-laws are described just as a brother or a sister.

Page 54 seems to be full of stuff. The paragraph about the two families being on excellent terms with no pride or envy seems to be contradicted in the second full paragraph on the next page. Mary Musgrove "looked down very decidedly upon the Hayters (the husbands ar blood brothers)..." So I find myself a little confused and think I am missing something. Help anyone?

I'm at the top of 56 now and just started making a list of all the people named Charles. Four so far.

LizzyBennet

03-13-2007, 11:04 AM

I was thinking how appropriate the names Fred and Anne are... Otherwise, I don't really see any symbolism in the names.
I was reading last night (reached mid-Chapter 11), and I was thinking about how we really don't know what is going on in Wentworth's mind. We only get Anne's perspective on things. We know he asked if she danced. He pulled the child off her back and caused her extreme agitation. He discussed her with Louisa on the walk and how she turned down Charles Musgrove. He made it clear that he doesn't like indecisiveness. "My first wish for all, whom I am interested in, is that they should be firm." He also helped Anne into the carriage. She thought it was because he wanted to give her some relief. Maybe he did it so he could be more comfortable flirting with Louisa without Anne being around!
I think eventually we will come to know what his true feelings were during all these events. I hope he has been in love with Anne all along and not that she has to make him fall back in love with her.

LizzyBennet

03-13-2007, 11:56 AM

Charles Musgrove and son, Charles Hayter, and who is the fourth?

I think there is no pride or envy in the parent families of the Musgroves and Hayters, the mothers of each family are sisters. The negative comments were made by Mary, who seems to be just a pill in general. She is self-absorbed, and I do not care for her! She was concerned more about what the union of Henrietta and Charles Hayter would mean for her. Yuk!

Weems

03-13-2007, 12:50 PM

The mothers of the Musgroves and Hayters are Mary (Blood sister to Anne and Elizabeth) I don't know the Hayter first name. But this is what I was referring to about "in-laws" being refered to strictly as brother or sister. These two are inlaws.

Anne refers at the bottom of 54 that she "...had to listen to the opinions of her bother and sister [which they prefered for Wentworth, Loiusa or Henriett]. " I thought, Anne had a brother?! I went back to page one and it clarified that Charles, son and heir of Charles Musgrove (the fourth Charles! so far!) married Mary on the 16th of Dec 1810. So Mary and Mrs Musgrove are sisters-in-law. I know, it's confusing but that should help.

Tell me about the names Fred and Anne.

Mary's contempt for Charles Hayter marrying one of her daughters is that the Musgroves are basically nothing. Again p54 "and while the Musgroves were in the first class of society...the young Hayters (Charles and whichever daughter) would, from their parents' inferior, retired and unpolished way of living, and their own defective education, have been hardly in any class at all, but for their connexion with Uppercross; this eldest son of course excepted (Charles, right?), who had chosen to be a scholar and a gentleman, and who was superior in cultivation and manners to all the rest. (and here I need some schooling because things are not adding up right now. Mary is 2 years younger than Anne and Anne is 26 right now, correct? How could Mary have two daughters that are of marrying age?) :idea:

Great observation on Wentworth's mind! I, too, hope you are right about him still being in love with her!!...

LizzyBennet

03-13-2007, 01:07 PM

Anne is 27. Page 2-she was 14 when her mother passed away and that was 13 years ago.
The names Fred and Anne resemble other names I like to hear together.
Okay, let me set you straight! There are two families at Uppercross, the Musgrove parents in the mansion, children are Charles, the twins, and deceased Richard. Mrs. Musgrove is Mary's mother-in-law. Charles, Jr. and Mary (Anne and Elizabeth's sister) live in the cottage. When Anne refers to her brother and sister on page 54, she means her sister, Mary and brother-in-law, Charles, Jr. They have ?many children, one of which is Charles, III. The eldest Mrs. Musgrove is sister to Mrs. Hayter. The Hayters live at Winthrop, and their son Charles is expected to wed Henrietta (first cousins-yuk!):sick:

Weems

03-14-2007, 12:03 AM

Thank you for that, Speedy Gonzonlez! Where did you find that on the mother Musgroves? Should we just read thru as fast as we can and then go back or go slow? I'm all for getting thru it, together, as fast as we can and then coming back thru it! Will you read it a second time with me?...

LizzyBennet

03-14-2007, 08:35 AM

On page 20 is the original reference to Charles marrying Mary. (They have 2 children). Mary is always referred to as Mary (exc once she was called Mrs. Charles by her mother-in-law, bottom page 31), and his mother is always referred to as Mrs. Musgrove.
Uppercross Cottage is described at the bottom of page 25. The parent's home is called the Great House. Page 29 talks about the parents and the children, Charles, Henrietta and Louisa.
Top of 54 says "Mrs. Musgrove and Mrs. Hayter were sisters."

I would love to read through twice. My time to read is inconsistent, however. I hope I can keep up with you!

Weems

03-14-2007, 08:36 AM

Poke! ICU! I will read at your pace! Keep me informed as to where you are and where you hope to go!

Weems

03-14-2007, 08:54 AM

I went back to all your references and I'll be damned, there it is! I thought of all the tests that were taken by me in hs English and I would have missed any questins about this and I thought I was right on! You are so observant! I really thought I was better than this than to miss the connexion between the Great House, the cottage and the Musgroves and Hayters. This is why it is good to read this book with someone!

I thought I would share with you what I hope to get out of reading this book. At first I was motivated to read it for the story and the experience. But because of my HS English teacher, things stand out in a good book that I can't help observing. Now I feel like picking it apart a little. When I went back and reread the places you referenced I was amazed at how clear the details are that I missed! And of course, I have the advantage of having already read those parts (and I'm reading them in a study mode so I see it differently).

Thank you SO much for your help and illumination on this!:thumbs_up

LizzyBennet

03-14-2007, 10:27 AM

You are too kind, sir!
I read EVERYTHING like I am studying for a test. I read very slow because of that, and I read most sentences more than once, ESPECIALLY Jane Austen! I am re-starting Chapter 11 today,and hope to complete it tonight. I won't be reading tomorrow (Thurs), but should have plenty of time to read Friday (but no computer access). I will try to come up with something illuminating or interesting over the weekend!
It is nice to have someone to read along with and discuss. I am ready for a love story! I can't help it! I AM a GIRL!

Weems

03-14-2007, 01:34 PM

Now I have a better idea of how you read! I think I'll slow down a little and sink my teeth into this so I can keep abreast better with you!!

LizzyBennet

03-14-2007, 02:07 PM

Let's just say I've had lots of school and too many tests!

I will be out of town starting Thursday night through mid-day Saturday--spending time with my brother.

I hope the Love of Your Life doesn't mind you reading this book with me....

Weems

03-14-2007, 02:45 PM

Be safe out of town! And enjoy reading! I'll do the same!!

Weems

03-15-2007, 08:16 AM

I started chatper 12 last night and got thru a few pages before I was passing out. Please keep me posted as to where you are this weekend and I'll try to stay with you. Fast read at this point, right? just get thru it and come back?...

Weems

03-16-2007, 07:01 PM

Hi! I hope your reading is going well! I have done little but will get on it soon!...

Weems

03-18-2007, 01:40 AM

It's late and I've been awaken by visiting relatives and heavy-footed children. Finding myself unable to go back to sleep I reflected on my veiwing (again) of Pride and Prejudice before turning out the light.

I wrote earlier about the use of names and that the name "Charles" has shown up in Persuaion four times by chapter 14. Each of the Charles named is not a main character and I realized that Charles Bingley in Pride and Prejudice is not a main character either.

So I took half an ambian to aid in my sleep and came down here to search all of Jane Austen's work for the name Charles. And guess what? I found nothing consistent. But I did find that all but two (Emma and Sense ans Sensability have characters named Charles that are not the main character. I also thought that maybe there was someone in her life named Charles who had some kind of impact on her so I searched her biographies too. I could not find a Charles listed anywhere, but that does not mean that there wasn't one in her life.

Lady Susan - Charles Vernon and Charles Smith
Mansfield Park - Charles Maddox and Charles Anderson
Northanger Abbey - Charles Hodges
Pride and Prejudice - Charles Bingley
Persuasion - Charles Sr, Jr, and III Musgrove and Charles Hayter

Truthfully, I think that's a lot of Charles! So my next question to research is when were Emma and S&S written and is there any chance that a Charles had influence on her after they were written. I need to research the order they were written. Emma was not the first written, but it was the first published.

Weems

03-18-2007, 11:33 AM

Persuasion
I find Anne in Chapter 13 in an empty Mansion House. She does not want to say goodbye to it, the cottage or the village. This is the third time I have read this section as it is the place were Lizzy stopped last and I have two completely separate comments.

The first one is that I am drawn to the description of the cottage at the bottom of 89: "...with it's black, dripping, and comfortless veranda..." What is the meaning dehind this description? Her sister, Mary, lives there and might be considered having a personality to match. But does anyone really know what Austen intends when she writes? Or are we applying meaning to something that does not exist because we think we are so smart? What if it was just a description with no imagery or intended meaning?

The second requires no analysis because it is such a human trait and occurrence in the life of anyone who feels and has emotion. And I wonder if you noticed it and that is what caused you to pause at page 90! It starts at the last line of 89: ''Scenes had passed in Uppercross, which made it precious. It stood the record of many sensations of pain, once severe, but now softened; and of some instances of relenting feelings, some breathings of friendship and reconciliation, which could never be looked for again, and which would never cease to be dear.''

I do not know about you, but that paragraph may be the entire book for me! It may be what I remember for the rest of my life as to this story! I can tell you that it conjures up great emotion and causes my eyes to well. Tell me, Is it You?

LizzyBennet

03-19-2007, 06:44 AM

You are right, again. That's me....

Weems

03-19-2007, 09:45 AM

I'm on page 140.

LizzyBennet

03-19-2007, 11:36 AM

It regards to the quote about the front of the cottage, I think it does describe Mary, even though she may not have intended that. Of course, it is raining, and I think she is describing a veranda with a black, dripping roof. What I noticed about that scene is the irony of the type of thoughts Anne is having despite the dreary weather. She is reminded of things "happy and gay, all that was glowing and bright in prosperous love," and it makes her sad to be leaving.
On the next page, I love what Anne feels about herself at the new attention she is receiving. I can SO relate! She hopes that she is being "blessed with a second spring of youth and beauty." Being admired by someone makes us all glow and become even more beautiful because it makes us radiate from the inside out!
Back-tracking to page 87... after Louisa's accident, Anne wonders about Wentworth "if it ever occurred to him now, to question the justness of his own previous opinion as to the universal felicity and advantage of firmness of character; and whether it might not strike him, that, like all other qualities of the mind, it should have its proportions and limits. She thought it could scarcely escape him to feel, that a persuadable temper might sometimes be as much in favour of happiness, as a very resolute character." The firmness she lacked that he wished for in Anne (page 64) turned out to be not the best thing for Louisa. Maybe this experience will change his opinion about being too firm, and he will see it as a negative trait in Louisa.
I am enjoying all the new attention Anne is getting. She may find she no longer thinks much about Wentworth. I think Benwick's shyness is a little unattractive. And I am hoping Mr. Elliot is interested in Anne, not Elizabeth.

I can't explain all the Charles'!!!!!!!

Weems

03-19-2007, 04:27 PM

What exquisite observations and what excellent boiled potatoes!

I like what matters to you as you read! I have many things to discuss but it seems tough to know which! Benwick! What a surprising change in the plot! I do not know how it will develop but surely if the plot did not change then Wentworth would marry Louisa and that is not how we want it to be!

I also think that Mr.Elliott's interest in Anne is the right kind of motivation for Wentworth to pay attention to Anne. Anne is feeling a whole lot better about herself, her spring of youth, and it shows when Wentworth walks in and means to barely acknowledge Anne. Anne greets him and he immediately swerves to converse with her. Sir Walter and Elizabeth finally give the appropriate courtesies to Wentworth.

I understand how association and attention can make a person feel young and alive. It is human nature to feel that way. How much internal strength does it take to overcome human nature? Does nature control us or can we control it? All it takes is a little acknowledgement to put a person in the clouds. Anne is evidence of that.

I my life, I know that even the hint of an oasis, a mirage even, in a dessert is enough to fuel the well of energy and the youthful feelings associated with being IN love.

I fell in love with a girl once and now every single positive thing said or acknowledgement of emotional or physical attractiveness makes me feel like I'm on top of the world. Like Elizabeth Bennet in Pride and Prejudice.

I read something I liked about friendship yesterday: A true friend stands by through the changing seasons of life and cheers you on not for your successes but for staying true to what matters most. Karen Kingsbury, acknowlegements to her book "Found".

LizzyBennet

03-19-2007, 05:30 PM

I'm on page 111, so I haven't read where Elizabeth and Sir Elliot meet Wentworth yet, (or did you mean Mr. Elliot?)

That is a lovely quote about friendship. I am passing through the seasons of life rather roughly, I think! I cherish those few true friends I have that stick with me!

Elizabeth Bennet is a complex character. I like her. Alot. Duh. Maybe we could read that together when we are finished picking apart Persuasion. Interested? I opened my copy of P and P yesterday and thought I needed to tell you about the passage I saw there before me. Now I can't recall. I dog-eared the page. I will look it up again and let you know.

Weems

03-19-2007, 05:52 PM

I would love that. Tell me which copy you have and I will get the same!...

Weems

03-20-2007, 08:39 AM

Anne waits for seven years in mental and physical solitude with no guarantee of anything. She has had men in her life--one who has proposed and another who recently is showing interest. Yet she remains true to herself. It does not matter whether she is in Kellynch, Bath, Lyme or Uppercross, she does not allow physical or emotional access.

I can truly identify with that!! It does not matter where I am or who I am with, my heart belongs to just one and I do not allow any other emotional or physical access or exploration. It's just how I am now. So whether I'm in the Northwest, the Far East, the Middle East or the high desert, I remain true to just one person. I like it that way. And even though I have hurt that person in the course of life, more than once, I will not back away. That person may, but I won't. There will be no "exploration", "bending" the rules, "covering" mistakes or "exploring" the new no matter where my travels take me. I won't be showing anyone or giving access to a dam thing.

So as I read this I am reminded that while others are in Anne's life, she is singularly focussed on the love of her life. That's how I am. :argue:

LizzyBennet

03-20-2007, 09:24 AM

You made me smile and laugh-- A major feat for the mood I am in today. However, even I, a total stranger, know that people can't deliver everything they promise. After all, this is reality.

Weems

03-20-2007, 08:55 PM

What little reading I've done today has been from page 111....

LizzyBennet

03-21-2007, 08:37 AM

I am on page 124 now. I can't believe the developments! Benwick in love with Louisa?! Anne won't consider Mr. Elliot?! (although I can see why!) Where is Wentworth when we need him???!!!

On page 114. I see a sentence with the term "au fait" in it. There's a Corinne Bailey Rae song with those words, and I never understood it. Can anyone explain? In Persuasion, it seems to mean "being with it" or "in the know."

I love the paragraph about Mr. Elliott and Anne's opinion of him at the bottom of page 118 and top of 119. It relates to not caring for his temperament. I feel the same. I also prefer the "frank, open-hearted, the eager character beyond all others. Warmth and enthusiasm did captivate her still." I prefer people who have expressive emotions. Forget the bland, repressive and emotionless types. Give me something to grab hold of. I want the full gamut of emotions and expression!

Weems

03-21-2007, 08:47 AM

I will read to pg 124 and repond to your thoughts today. If you read beyond that tell me! I'll look up Au Fait today!...

Weems

03-21-2007, 10:43 AM

You are right! And I'm smarter now!

Adj. 1. au fait - being up to particular standard or level especially in being up to date in knowledge; "kept a breast of the latest developments"; "constant revision keeps the book au courant"; "always au fait on the latest events"; "up on the news"

LizzyBennet

03-21-2007, 11:47 AM

Excellent! Good work!

Weems

03-21-2007, 02:34 PM

Why thank you, Miss!!

LizzyBennet

03-21-2007, 03:52 PM

I missed you before, but I'm back now! And so are you! I'm not finding any time to read today. Tonight will be better. Generally, I don't have time to read during the work day.

Weems

03-21-2007, 05:22 PM

Understanding human nature has been an important part of the leadership skills and experience of my life both on and off the battlefield. Austen has a great but short summary at the top of 115.

''Here and there, human nature may be great in times of trial, but generally speaking it is in its weakness and not its strength that appears in a sick chamber; it is selfishness and impatience rather than generosity and fortitude, that one hears of.''

Then in the next sentence I find another one of those nuggets in life: ''There is so little real friendship in the world!--and unfortunately (speaking low and tremulously) there are so many who forget to think seriously till it is almost too late.''

What a big WOW! on all three accounts! Human nature being mostly foussed on the negative, rare real friendship (opposed to the many ''acquaintances'' we all have that we call friends) and the levity and silliness we see among most people all of the time.

Austen pegs three life issues in one paragraph that are still present 200 years later. DO NOT expect them to change across the board. It requires individual enlightenment and wisdom and maturity to transcend these conditions. When people are comfortable, they seldom appreciate anything. Consider this: Why don't you count the number of homeless people asking for help on a sign at an intersection who have written ''God Bless'' on their piece of cardboard.

Mrs. Smith, who was speaking to Anne, goes on to make me laugh at her own understanding of how people opperate when she makes fun of Mrs. Wallis, a mere pretty, silly, expensive, fashionable woman who will have nothing to report but of lace and finery, by stating that she will make her profit by selling all her high-priced things she has recently made.

Weems

03-21-2007, 06:17 PM

Miss Bennet, I have read your comments about Mr. Elliot's temperment. I agree! Now tell me, Miss Elizabeth Bennet, if you did not notice the last sentence of that paragraph and tell me if you did not identify again with Anne beyond her initial explanation of temperment: ''She felt that she could so much more depend upon the sincerity of those who sometimes looked or said a careless or a hasty thing, than of those whose presence of mind never varied, whose tongue never slipped.''!

Weems

03-21-2007, 09:22 PM

Carriages are important. And the kind of carriage is important too. I'm going to start tracking the kinds listed in the book. On page 128 a barouche is mentioned. Here's what I've learned about the barouche: -a four-wheel fancy carriage with a fold-up hood at the back and with two inside seats facing each other. It was the fancy carriage of the first half of the 19th century.

In P&P Mr Collins mentions Lady Catherine's tiny phaeton and ponies: A light four-wheel carriage with open sides and drawn by one or two horses.

Weems

03-21-2007, 11:20 PM

I'm at the top of 130. The reread from 111 to 124 was wonderful and I had a lot of thoughts and lots of notes in the margin. Here's one of them on Mary's letter to Anne:

Mary is SO negative in the original letter. I underlined 21 negative comments. I find Jane Austen using this letter from Mary to underscore the weakness, selfishness and impatience of Human Nature described on P115.

In her continuation, Mary's tone changes the instant there is anything exciting to report, especially if it involves love!

Another is how snotty Sir Walter is about Admiral Croft on 122. The 2nd and 3rd paragraph's of 124 make me laugh as Croft settles the matter. The Croft's could care less about Walter Elliot while Walter thinks they do and Walter talks and thinks of them way more than they do of him!!

Anyway, the quiz: On page 127, Admiral Croft speaks of James Benwick and uses the word piano to describe him. What does it mean and what is the origin of the word? You have 5 minutes from now and must answer in a minimum of 5 paragraphs!...

LizzyBennet

03-22-2007, 08:29 AM

I think piano means he is too soft or quiet.

I think you misunderstand Mrs. Smith's discussion about human nature on p. 115. I think she is talking about what human nature is for people who are sick and recovering or always bed-ridden. People in that situation are usually not strong and generous. They are selfish and impatient. They want to get better, and all they can focus on is themselves and their discomforts. One reason Anne likes Mrs. Smith is that she does not seem thus affected by her condition and remains positive and interested in what is going on in the world around her--being "au fait."

Yes, I noticed that last sentence of the paragraph on page 119 and purposely did not include it. I don't think she means that it is okay to be careless about saying things that hurt people. I think she is referring to giving opinions about this or that and not hiding your true thoughts on things. Instead of "The food is perfect!", she trusts "I don't care for these potatoes!" She means that she trusts the opinions more of people who are not always saying just the right thing or always making the perfect compliment. She trusts people who come right out and give their real opinion. I guess I should have included it so that I could be sure to explain it!

Weems

03-22-2007, 09:08 AM

Correct on piano! It's Italian in origin and is used extensively in music for expression and dynamics.

Oh! on the rest of your explanation!:blush:

LizzyBennet

03-22-2007, 09:28 AM

I am on page 136. When I have time, I want to discuss the middle of page 135 where he stops, Anne blushes, and then he clears his throat and continues.

Weems

03-22-2007, 10:31 AM

I've gone back to the top of 115 on human nature and I need to add some thoughts. While, yes, Mrs Smith seems to be referring to people who are sick, it doesn't change the fact that people who are not sick still act the same way. Look at the news! There is little positive in the news. That's why I'm no longer au fait with the news. I have come to ask myself this question regarding the news: ''So what? And just how is this information truly useful to me?'' There is little useful information. Tell me how my taxes will be impacted, what is the construction that will affect mobility around the city, what accidents are slowing the morning commute and how should I avoid them? for example. Other than that, build me up!

Mrs. Smith is a perfect model in my eyes of seeing beyond current circumstances and capturing life in a way that suits her. She is happy despite the poor hand that she has been dealt. I had a battalion commander say to me before we crossed the border into Iraq, ''In the course of this fight you may be dealt a 2 and a 3. Play those cards hard because it may be all you'll get for a while''. Now that's a HUGE nugget in the waters of life!! Mrs. Smith plays her 2 and 3 hard.

I encourage all to rise up in the clouded moments of life, view the destination--the objective--and get their bearings.

There is One True North and there is a star in the sky that will guide you if you look at it and follow it.

I understand your position on the careless or hasty comment. You are referring to that which hurts a person. I do not think telling it like it is is what she is referring to. I think it's saying what you think or behaving in a way where the reactions of others are unanticipated rather than calculated. A harsh, intentional comment is as calculated as the precise, perfect wording of a compliment.

No, I think that she is referring to comments like Mr. Bingley as he speaks with Jane when they first meet, ''I CAN read!'' as he stumbles to ensure she gets that he is not illiterate. Contrast this with Mr. Collins rehearsed compliments. Mr. Darcy, while polished and capable in his wording drops the front in emotional moments with Elizabeth Bennet. We are sympathetic to Bingley and Darcy. We laugh at Collins.

The place is quiet. I think I will watch Pride and Prejudice....

Weems

03-22-2007, 04:22 PM

I'm told that as people Age it is important to keep their mind busy and active to prevent the effects of declining cognitve sKills.

I loOk around me and I see people working crossword puzzles, jigsaw puzzles and Sudoku puzzles. I guess it's a great way to work the mind!

But as I age, I find that the analysis and discussion of classics is also a tremendous tool to keep the mind active. Not to mention, when I walk away from this book to another, I will have more in my mind to compare to things that happen in my life and to other books. Nothing puzzling about that!

Now to reread 135 and the blushing!

Weems

03-22-2007, 05:18 PM

Anne states that Benwick and Louisa both come from good principles and good tempers. But that is all that Wentworth will give them stating, ''but there I think ends the resemblance.'' He goes on to speak of all things that would contribute to their happiness and comfort in life, even ''... more than perhaps--''

And here is where we conjecture. I think that he, in that moment, was comparing himself to Benwick and felt like he was unable to offer the same measure of happiness. He feels some rejection and Anne feels a twinge also. That would explain her blushing and downcast eyes and his stumbling over his words in an awkward moment.

A second idea I had was that he could be referring to Benwick being happier with Louisa than he was with his first wife who died, I think, less than a year before. After he cleared his throat he went on to suggest that Benwick's attachment to his wife could never merit a recovery of the heart. ''He ought not--he does not.''

Your thoughts? A girl's perspective please?

Oh, and get ready for a delicious paragraph at the bottom of 137!! WEE!!

LizzyBennet

03-22-2007, 07:49 PM

First, I agree with what you said about the hasty and careless comments! That is precisely what I meant, and I guess I didn't explain it clearly. I did not thing she was referring in any way to hurtful comments, just that you are more apt to trust people like a Bingley or Darcy, and not a Collins. Good examples!

Here is what I interpreted on page 135:
Wentworth is talking about Louisa's parents and that they are "in favour of their (Benwick's and Louisa's) happiness; more than perhaps-" I think he was going to say they were more in favor of Benwick and Louisa than he and Louisa. Then, I think he recalls, as Anne is recalling at the same time, that Anne's family was not in favour of Wentworth's union with Anne. I'm really not sure, but that was the impression I got, and I felt the emotion of embarrassment for Wentworth also, as I read it, like Anne did.

Looking forward to page 137!

Weems

03-22-2007, 08:24 PM

I can see that about Louisa's parents. Would you also take a closer look at the next paragraph where Wentworth speaks of Benwick's dead wife and tell me if you see anything in there?...

LizzyBennet

03-23-2007, 03:17 PM

Yes, he talks about the relationship with Benwick and his wife and it being a true love, the kind a man would never get over. It makes Anne very happy to hear him talk that way.

But I've lost some respect for him. Why didn't he notice Anne to begin with when he returned? He treated her normally and Louisa captured his attention. Now it seems that since Louisa is marrying Benwick, he turns to Anne, and seems more interested in her because other men are interested in her. That bugs me.

Weems

03-23-2007, 04:16 PM

He is embarrassed and uncomfortable and is unsure of where he stands. Having been rejected once before he is cautious in showing interest because he doesn't want to be crushed again. Louisa is second best and if he goes the rest of his life without knowing Anne's real feelings then he is not the wiser and can live without ever having to know he missed his second chance. There is safety there but no reward. No risk, no reward. That is the value Louisa adds to his life.

There is also the smugness of ''look what you missed out on!'' That is stupid, but seems to fall in line with human nature.

I think that in a deep and real love that exists between a man and woman who are not in a position to act on it there will always be pain, especially if each is involved with another person.

And it just compounds it if each are not in love with the person they are with. They must suffer together and separately, each imagining the other is less in love or less committed than maybe they really are.....

Wentworth is protecting himself from more pain. There will always be pain in life and there will always be opposition in all things. THAT is how you know joy!!

Where are you in the book? I have gotten to 145 and want to stay right about where you are! I'd kinda like you to get to end just slightly ahead of me. You be au fait!...

LizzyBennet

03-23-2007, 04:57 PM

Nice thoughts! PAge 148 here...

Weems

03-23-2007, 07:47 PM

At the risk of showing my lack of intelligence (and of losing more respect!) I looked up the word ''streightened'' because I did not understand it. It shows up toward the end of chap 21 and then in 22 (when I searched the searchable text for Persuasion). There was no reference for streighten except that it said to see ''straiten''. Here is the context; the definition follows.

"Mr Elliot would do nothing, and she could do nothing herself, equally disabled from personal exertion by her state of bodily weakness and from employing others by her want of money.**She had no natural connexions to assist her even with their counsel,
and she could not afford to purchase the assistance of the law. This was a cruel aggravation of actually streightened means.

To feel that she ought to be in better circumstances, that a little trouble in the right place might do it, and to fear that delay might be even weakening her claims, was hard to bear."

strait*en (strtn)
tr.v. strait*ened, strait*en*ing, strait*ens
1.
a. To make narrow.
b. To enclose in a limited area; confine.
2. To put or bring into difficulties or distress, especially financial hardship.
3. Archaic To restrict in latitude or scope.

It makes sense to me now. I think of strait jacket, straits pertaining to bodies of water, dire straits, relationship straits. That's where I am...

Weems

03-24-2007, 08:20 AM

It is your turn to say something now!

Weems

03-24-2007, 09:21 AM

What about page 137? Didn't you just love it?

From 158.

eclat
n. - Brilliant or conspicuous success or effect; Ceremonial elegance and splendor; Enthusiastic approval.

The noun eclat has 3 meanings:
Meaning #1 | accl...
Meaning #2: ceremonial elegance and splendor
**Synonym: pomp
Meaning #3: brilliant or conspicuous success or effect

LizzyBennet

03-24-2007, 10:39 AM

I think if a deep and real love exists between a man and a woman, as you say, then it is not possible to be in love with anyone else. Doesn't anyone else out there have an opinion on any of this?

Page 137... Anne was thinking back about how he spoke, his mannerisms, etc, and decided he must still love her. It WAS good, but I was wondering as I read, why he had the sudden change of heart in his feelings for her. He could talk easily around her at Uppercross. So, now suddenly, when he didn't get what he wants in one place, he has to try somewhere else. "Looking for that next meal!" It's just not honorable to me!

I think "streightened" means "poor".

I actually have made it to the start of Chapter 22.

LizzyBennet

03-24-2007, 10:47 AM

Page 150... "Her seeing the letter was a violation of the laws of honour, that no one ought to be judged or to be known by such testimonies, that no private correspondence could bear the eye of others, before she could recover calmness enough to return the letter which she had been meditating over, and say, "Thank you. This is full proof undoubtedly, proof of everything,..."

Even when it's accidental, reading something illuminating is proof of what a person's true feelings are.

Page 154... "There is always something offensive in the details of cunning. The manoeuvres of selfishness and duplicity must be revolting." So true!

Weems

03-24-2007, 04:34 PM

Looks like you said something!! Wow! No doubt, you are right and I agree with you on that reply. Life can be convoluted at times, you know, and sometimes things aren't always as they appear...

I need to make a sandwich and get my day started. I've had a movie on and have spent the last 2 hours reponding and posting in the Lit Forum.

Guess what?...

Weems

03-24-2007, 06:18 PM

Holding at the top of 176. Where are you?

You said, ''I think if a deep and real love exists between a man and a woman, as you say, then it is not possible to be in love with anyone else. Doesn't anyone else out there have an opinion on any of this?'' I have an opinion on that! I agree! I think it is not possible to be IN LOVE with more than one person. It's possible to love others non-romantically, but not to be IN love with more than one person. That's how I am. One girl. What about you? Are you IN love with anyone?

Page 137... I think LOUISA was the ''next meal'' all along, not Anne. He couldn't have the love of his life so he was willing to settle. Please see our exchanges about his embarrassment/risk/reward. But even so, people want to be in love, no matter how it hurts. That's human nature. But people don't go to the ''next meal'' if its been the main course for so long just because the meal they want is not available. Manufactured feelings do not work, I've come to realize.

Based on the definition I posted of streightened (straitened) I think it means that Mrs. Smith's financial resources became constrained, restricted, narrowed to the point that it affected her options. In this case an inability to hire a lawyer.

You wrote, (Page 150...) "Her seeing the letter was a violation of the laws of honour, that no one ought to be judged or to be known by such testimonies, that no private correspondence could bear the eye of others, before she could recover calmness enough to return the letter which she had been meditating over, and say, "Thank you. This is full proof undoubtedly, proof of everything,..."

'' Even when it's accidental, reading something illuminating is proof of what a person's true feelings are.'' When what is written is intended to convey meaning that is not of the heart, manipulation so to speak, then it is not proof of the heart. But it is cunning and offensive standing alone. Your quote from 154 could not better underscore that. And I've been guilty of that.

Page 154... "There is always something offensive in the details of cunning. The manoeuvres of selfishness and duplicity must be revolting." So true!

LizzyBennet

03-24-2007, 09:32 PM

I'm around 160, I think. Been busy today. Will try to finish tomorrow. Lots to digest for now...

Weems

03-24-2007, 09:43 PM

I will wait to finish till tomorrow. Yes, there is a lot to digest, and hopefully it's not your ''next meal''. Leaving this place now.

LizzyBennet

03-25-2007, 11:36 AM

No, currently, I don't have the feelings of being "in love" with anyone, and I disagree with you about the "next meal." I think some people will seek it wherever they can, especially when the one they want is not available.

I am on page 164 now.

On page 159, I read something I could relate to:
"She had been used before to feel that he could not be always quite sincere, but now she saw insincerity in everything." I know that feeling. It takes very little to lose trust in someone. As Darcy says, "My good opinion once lost is lost forever." Once that trust is tested, it makes you wonder how many other times you were just told whatever was needed to smooth things over and you wonder how much of it was the truth. That feeling of mistrust never goes away.

Weems

03-25-2007, 04:02 PM

My niece said that she saw the complete works of Jane austen at a book store and wants to get it for me next month! I thought that was very thoughtful of her!

Weems

03-26-2007, 05:51 PM

I have finished the book. THere are many parallels to relationships of true love. Tell me your thoughts onthe last sentence.

I find it interesting that the last chapter is basically an editorial. It's as if Jane Austen did not trust that the reader would get her book, so she spells it out for us. Actually, I am glad she does. It leaves no doubt about how things are wrapped up in all the character's lives.

The name hayter turned out to have no meaning in the area I thought it did. I did not see Charles Hayter as a hater.

LizzyBennet

03-27-2007, 08:31 AM

The book is at my office, but there was a reference made to the value of the family at home that waits for a sailor gone off to war to return. It made me feel even more left out.

LizzyBennet

03-27-2007, 03:24 PM

Page 165-- "Surely, if there be constant attachment on each side, our hearts must understand each other ere long. We are not boy and girl, to be captiously irritable, misled by every moment's inadvertence, and wantonly playing with our own happiness." No, no one wants discord in a relationship, and it is comforting to think that if it is meant to be, then things will be right one day and lovers will be together.

Wentworth's letter on pg. 176-- Exquisite show of emotion and feelings, sincere, honest, and passionate. How can it be descibed as anything less?! I was so proud of him! "I have loved none but you." "Never inconstant." Wonderful!

Page 180--He goes on to explain, however, "that he had been constant unconsciously, nay unintentionally; that he had meant to forget her, and believed it to be done. He had imagined himself indifferent, when he had only been angry; and he had been unjust to her merits, because he had been a sufferer from them. Her character was now fixed on his mind as perfection itself." Attempted attachment to Louisa was because of his "angry pride."
How well she puts real-life emotions into words!

Is pride a fault or a virtue?

LizzyBennet

03-27-2007, 04:11 PM

"captiously"--marked by a disposition to find or point out trivial faults, intended to entrap or confuse, as in an argument

Weems

03-27-2007, 05:49 PM

Pride being a fault or a virtue is one of question. Darcy answers rather abrasively when asked by Elizabeth.

I read all that you did and picked up on all the references you made! I remember thinking in response to the ''angry pride", "I knew it! Louisa WAS just the next meal!" I don't have my book with me so I can't remember all the the references but that is what I was referring to when I said Jane was editorializing in the last chapter. It was a wonderful last chapter and a suiting end to the book. The letter he wrote....wow! I wanted to see SOMETHING like that from him. Thanks for the definition. I hope mine are appreciated!

LizzyBennet

03-27-2007, 06:25 PM

I do appreciate the definitions!

I would have hoped that, even though Anne turned him away 8 years ago, he would have had the confidence to see where her feelings lay before moving on to the "next meal." I would expect that in my life and circumstances. Never make assumptions on matters of the heart!!

Weems

03-30-2007, 08:53 PM

Well, it looks like we are thru the first read. So many parallel's to life and relationships.

I'm ready to start again and go a little slower. I can take as much time as I need....

I loved this book...

LizzyBennet

03-30-2007, 10:03 PM

I'll let you know when I am ready to start over! I loved this book, too. I learned alot about myself!

Weems

03-30-2007, 11:43 PM

Exploring is good.... I found as I reread the first chapter (and yes, it is very early Sunday morning and I've been reading (4:30)) that there is an explanation of the relationship and history of William Elliot to the family and that Elizabeth is actually wearing black ribbons out of repect for his recently deceased wife. We learn even more details toward the end of the book from Mrs. Smith.

Elizabeth really is a wretched person toward Anne. Anne is described as nothing of consequence in the family, and when the debt is revealed to Elizabeth by her father she considers how to save money and comes up with two ideas (cutting off some charities and not refurnishing the drawing room) before "...afterwords adding the happy thought of taking no present down to Anne, as had been the usual yearly custom.
***
I have preteen kids. I thought about how helpful it would have been to have books in HS and JH that I was reading in English class that had notes in the margin. I might have gotten a whole lot more out of them. I don't think that they will read any Jane Austen stuff but I think I'd like to find out which books they will read each year and read them in advance (twice, of course!) and make notes in the margin that might help them connect things or think about things as they read. Thoughts anyone?

Oh, and almost 1900 looks at this thread!!

LizzyBennet

04-03-2007, 12:49 PM

Not sure about that with the books. I think it sort of takes away from the challenge of making discoveries on their own. They would also end up presenting your ideas as their own in the classroom which is kind of not fair to the other students! It's not a bad idea, but I know I see things much differently than I did when reading things in jr high or high school.

Weems

04-03-2007, 02:33 PM

That's a good point. On the otherhand, I don't remember having ANY ideas in HS other than the ones presented by my teacher. Maybe Cliff gave me a few ideas. (last name: Notes)!...

Blackjack Davy

04-06-2007, 01:52 PM

I have recently started this book myself! Just beginning Chapter 4 in fact! This is where it begins to get good!
I have noticed that some of the writing thus far seems rushed, like she was trying to lay down the groundwork quickly without really developing it. I wonder if she meant to go back through and re-write it before she died. We'll never know. One thing we do know is that she has a romantic heart just like I do, and I can certainly relate to her heroines.

Thats one of the questions about the book. She certainly wrote it in a race against failing health and the book was published posthumously. Some of the early chapters do have a lot of quick summaries and a fair few dashes - which is something she used in the very unfinished fragment "Sandition" which she was writing a few months before her death. But that manuscript is literally full of dashes and half finished sentences. It seems that she jotted down her ideas in a notepad almost as fast as they came out of her head, and only later went back and wrote it up with proper sentences and punctuation. It seems likely that Persuasion hadn't been quite as polished as she would have liked before publication, but we'll never know for certain.