PDA

View Full Version : The Taming of the Shrew: Induction I and II



Scheherazade
01-02-2007, 12:08 PM
We will be reading 'Induction I and II' during the first week of January (by the 8th).

Please post your opinions and thoughts on this part of the play here.

Induction I (http://www.online-literature.com/shakespeare/shrew/1/)

Induction II (http://www.online-literature.com/shakespeare/shrew/2/)

Nightshade
01-04-2007, 05:00 AM
Well Ive never read this part before. I wonder why? I thought Id read the whole play. Anyway Im not perfectly sure anymore but it echos in a way what happens later doesnt it? What with whats his name pretending to be mad/poor.
Is it just me or does Sly's style of talking change halfway through Induction II when hes convinced he is who they say?

Petruchio
01-04-2007, 11:03 AM
Personally, I love the play. We even did it in school and people loved it!
It has both comedy and teaches us a valuable lesson..........though only to those who wish to learn it!

Petruchio
01-04-2007, 11:10 AM
well, if you are a true literature fan and are actually enthusiastic about reading Shakespeare then you will like it!
But if you just reading coz you have to, then its no use.:lol:

Silv
01-04-2007, 12:18 PM
The Induction so far is quite interesting, already setting the stage for mischief on the part of the real Lord and his servants. Some questions that came to mind though, is the Lord's intent for deceiving Sly. Does he do this regularly for amusement, or only for Sly since he despises "swine" of Sly's kind? That was what I thought, but wasn't sure of. His purpose is also not really known at this point, but it's something I'd like to see ;)


Is it just me or does Sly's style of talking change halfway through Induction II when hes convinced he is who they say?

Hehe yeah, I noticed that too. I think it's because after hearing of all the things he has access to (riches, food, and a pretty lady!) he changes his attitude considerably out of greed. At that point I don't think he's really convinced yet that he's a Lord, but he can't be bothered about it either. This is obvious from his disregard of how to address his Lady, and how he finally decides to settle for just "Madam wife", an unconscious and impatient compromise between the upper-class formalities and his lower-class upbringing - all he wants is the awesome stuff that comes with being a Lord.

:D

//Edit:
Also, as I was reading I found the need to lookup several colloquial terms used, so I thought I'd post up what I came across as it may be useful to anyone interested:

Glossary
• paucas pallabris
In Modern Spanish, pocas palabras means “few words.”
• denier
a small, obsolete French coin of little value.
• third-borough
constable.
• “Breathe Merriman—the poor cur is embossed”
“Let the dog, Merriman, breathe. The poor dog is foaming at the mouth from exhaustion.”
• diaper
a napkin or towel.
• “husbanded with modesty”
“managed with decorum.”
• overeying
witnessing.
• veriest antic
oddest buffoon or eccentric.
• buttery
a place where the food supplies of a household are kept; pantry.
• small ale
weak (and therefore cheap) ale.
• sack
any of various dry white wines from Spain or the Canary Islands, popular in England during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.
• conserves
a kind of jam made of two or more fruits, often with nuts or raisins added.
• cardmaker
maker of cards, or combs, used to prepare wool for spinning.
• “on the score”
“in debt.”
• bestraught
distracted.
• Semiramis
a queen of Assyria noted for her beauty, wisdom, and sexual exploits: reputed founder of Babylon: based on a historical queen of the ninth century B.C.
• welkin
the vault of heaven, the sky, or the upper air.
• course
hunt the hare.
• Adonis
in Greek myth, a handsome young man loved by Aphrodite: he is killed by a wild boar.
• Cytherea
Aphrodite.
• sedges
any of the plants of the sedge family often found on wet ground or in water, having usually triangular, solid stems, three rows of narrow, pointed leaves, and minute flowers borne in spikelets.
• Io
a maiden loved by Zeus and changed into a heifer by jealous Hera or, in some tales, by Zeus to protect her: she is watched by Argus and is driven to Egypt, where she regains human form.
• Daphne
a nymph who is changed into a laurel tree to escape Apollo’s advances.
• Apollo
the god of music, poetry, prophecy, and medicine, represented as exemplifying manly youth and beauty: later identified with Helios.
• “present her at the leet”
“bring accusation against [the Hostess] at the manorial court.”
• Amends
recovery.

Virgil
01-04-2007, 01:05 PM
Oh great, this has gotten started. I've got a large reading list going right now, but I will read this shortly.

Nightshade
01-04-2007, 02:22 PM
:lol: I forgot the word never in my earlier post changes the meaning considerably.
hey silv that is useful :nod:

papayahed
01-04-2007, 02:28 PM
The Induction so far is quite interesting, already setting the stage for mischief on the part of the real Lord and his servants. Some questions that came to mind though, is the Lord's intent for deceiving Sly. Does he do this regularly for amusement, or only for Sly since he despises "swine" of Sly's kind? That was what I thought, but wasn't sure of. His purpose is also not really known at this point, but it's something I'd like to see ;)



I'm wondering the same thing, why go to all the trouble of decieving Sly....Kinda mean really.

Nightshade
01-04-2007, 02:32 PM
How to ask questions without spoilers??

Redzeppelin
01-04-2007, 03:00 PM
The induction raises one of the key issues of Taming: identity - who am I? Is who/what I perceive myself to be true? Shakespeare's comedies thrive on mistaken identity/disguise, but often the MI/D is a choice a character makes (with some exceptions like in Midsummer Night's Dream); here, we have a character being told who he is and he accepting it. The question is, why does Sly accept his proffered identity?

Nightshade
01-04-2007, 03:41 PM
Because its more sociallbly and personally desirable?

Redzeppelin
01-04-2007, 04:26 PM
A distinct possibility - but we have to ask if his decision is rational: would we do the same? If you woke up in a 5 million dollar mansion and were told it was yours, would you accept that identity as easily as Sly accepted his?

Nightshade
01-04-2007, 04:37 PM
how much do I want it??:p

Redzeppelin
01-04-2007, 05:49 PM
Agreeing to something because you "want" it is different from accepting that something as true. Granted, I guess we could debate as to whether or not Sly actually believed he was who he was told he was, or if he just went along with the game.

Silv
01-05-2007, 02:33 AM
The induction raises one of the key issues of Taming: identity - who am I? Is who/what I perceive myself to be true? Shakespeare's comedies thrive on mistaken identity/disguise, but often the MI/D is a choice a character makes (with some exceptions like in Midsummer Night's Dream); here, we have a character being told who he is and he accepting it. The question is, why does Sly accept his proffered identity?

Nice bringing this key issue up - wouldn't have thought of it otherwise. :thumbs_up

I think I agree with Nightshade on this one - Sly accepts his proffered identity (for now, anyway. not sure what happens later on) because he wants direct access to a Lord's life.

Also, he has nothing to win by denying he's a Lord, nor does he have anything to lose by agreeing that he is a Lord. He only stands to gain, therefore he did what was logical in this situation and just decided "go with the flow". :p

Redzeppelin
01-05-2007, 03:00 AM
Probably very true - Sly's opportunism is probably at work here. I mean, if you wake up in a dream and its to your liking, why wake up to reality? The fact that the induction is not "closed off" at the end of the play does leave a big question mark about Sly's "identity" crisis.

Nightshade
01-05-2007, 05:42 AM
Actually thinking about it since Im still reading whats it....12th night theres an example there of a similar thing people being bllinded/ fooled by there desire for a diiferant type of life. Malvoli being fooled . But if you go one step further and I am, Ill say that this is a prettty common theme in shakespare In othello hes afraid hes done just that fooled himself because he loved desdemona so much. In Hamlet theres the theory that he only sees the ghost because he wants to so much...

see where Im going??

Redzeppelin
01-05-2007, 12:04 PM
I like that. History books tell us that Elizabethans were notorious "ladder climbers" in terms of trying to rise in society (Shakespeare's own desire for a coat or arms and "gentleman" status bear this out). Sly may well represent that Elizabethan desire (though Sly's characterization may also be poking fun at that idea - which strikes me as interesting in terms of who Shakespeare is: I'm currently reading a book about the rival claimant to the title "Shakespeare" - Edward de Vere, the 17th Earl of Oxford. Because the Earl was high-born nobility, it would make sense if he was Shakespeare that he'd make fun of commoners who sought higher nobility. Shakespeare - a commoner - would have been more sympathetic to that plight. While I don't buy that de Vere is Shakespeare, the book is offering info that is rather disturbing in terms of questioning Shakespeare's identity.)

Janine
01-05-2007, 11:26 PM
I finally found this thread. I will have to read the two introductions. Not sure I read them before, either. Glad there is still time.

Virgil
01-06-2007, 12:31 AM
I finally found this thread. I will have to read the two introductions. Not sure I read them before, either. Glad there is still time.

Hi Janine. Yes we have two months per play. I think that's great. I'm not pressured to read it right away. Right now I'm reading Pygmalion for the book of the month forum. I will start this next week sometime.

Janine
01-06-2007, 02:13 AM
Hi Janine. Yes we have two months per play. I think that's great. I'm not pressured to read it right away. Right now I'm reading Pygmalion for the book of the month forum. I will start this next week sometime.

Hi Virgil,
Funny, I just took an audiobook back to the library of "Pygmalion". Unfortunately I could not find time to listen to it around Christmas. I did finish my 3rd Lawrence biography. Now reading "Twilight in Italy"....good so far.

Glad this group discussion will be two months, so we have plenty of time and no pressure. I will have to read the introductions and review the play; I read it last year, and saw the film version. Interesting play and quite funny...

Hope to see you in the discussion next week. I won't be able to join in till then either.

Nightshade
01-06-2007, 10:02 AM
I'm currently reading a book about the rival claimant to the title "Shakespeare" - Edward de Vere, the 17th Earl of Oxford. Because the Earl was high-born nobility, it would make sense if he was Shakespeare that he'd make fun of commoners who sought higher nobility. Shakespeare - a commoner - would have been more sympathetic to that plight. While I don't buy that de Vere is Shakespeare, the book is offering info that is rather disturbing in terms of questioning Shakespeare's identity.)

Oh cany you pm the name of the book? I love De Vere's poetry, well all that Ive managed lay my hands on:nod:

Although persdonally I like Marlowe for shakespear better:nod:

Redzeppelin
01-06-2007, 10:00 PM
Oh cany you pm the name of the book? I love De Vere's poetry, well all that Ive managed lay my hands on:nod:

Although persdonally I like Marlowe for shakespear better:nod:

The book (a present from Mom for Christmas) is entitled "Shakespeare" by Another Name: The Life of Edward de Vere, Earl of Oxford, the Man Who was Shakespeare. The author's name is Mark Anderson, ISBN# 1-592-40103-1

It reads like a biography, but the author notes people, experiences and historical events and how they line up with things in Shakespeare's plays. It's actually frightening to me how much sense this argument makes. Certainly the most convincing "conspiracy" argument I've heard in quite a while. And, while I love Marlowe too (nobody has answered my thread question on Marlowe! :( ), I think he was dead too soon. Ever read The Reckoning, by Charles Nichol? - it's an investigation of Marlowe's death. Fascinating.

Nightshade
01-07-2007, 06:27 AM
Ahh yes but look at t like this Marlowe 'dies" and he was after all a spy and I seem to rember there was somthing odd bout his body when they found him. And then a year or so later up popps this upstart out of kno where who continues in the same thread ( want to say vein< vain? veighn (not sure how its spelt) that marlowe started and no one had heard of him before. If you look at the conspircey the secrecy and dubicity of the tudours its just possible that Marlowe became shakespear....isnt it??

Vesta Luna
01-09-2007, 01:57 PM
Thanks on glossary...
Printed it off and will use on second read. First read was a hoot & joy.
v

Virgil
01-09-2007, 03:58 PM
Oh I read the two inductions last night. Frankly I have never understood why they are there. It seems very awkward. I don't care for it.

Virgil
01-09-2007, 04:00 PM
Is it just me or does Sly's style of talking change halfway through Induction II when hes convinced he is who they say?

Can you point it out Night? I don't see what you're talking about. Sly is supposed to be drunk i think.

Nightshade
01-09-2007, 04:08 PM
well in the first place his speech is rough , i dont know the rythem changes I think somthing but if you say it ut loud in the beging his speech is harsher and sort of bitty ut towards the end it suddenly more flowwy

if you get my meaning

Virgil
01-09-2007, 04:55 PM
well in the first place his speech is rough , i dont know the rythem changes I think somthing but if you say it ut loud in the beging his speech is harsher and sort of bitty ut towards the end it suddenly more flowwy

if you get my meaning

OK, I'll look back tonight and check.

Janine
01-10-2007, 03:37 PM
I read the two scenes in the introduction last night. I also wondered what the intent of Shakespeare was in putting these scenes before the play. I imagine when we read the play in depth it will come to us. I liked the way scene two played out with the deception working on Sly, probably because he wanted it to...as someone pointed out...why wake to reality when the dream was much more interesting. I don't recall any other of Shakespeare's plays beginning in this fashion with 2 scenes in an introduction. Could someone tell me if I am wrong about that and point out what plays began similiarly. I don't know if I like or dislike this device, but I thought it was different/unique; it is not yet quite clear to me how it will relate to the rest of the play. It makes use of the concept "a play within a play", which Shakespeare uses often. He did so in Hamlet and also stated in another play that "All the world's a stage". So in this way he is presenting "Taming of the Shrew" as a play set on a stage, perhaps indicating it is not quite reality, but a parable. In reading the play time will tell what Shakespeare's meaning is in full.

Scheherazade
01-10-2007, 08:57 PM
Janine,

I think you are right that this kind of device was not used in any other Shakespeare play (if anyone can think of one, please let us know! :)). Even though initially it seems puzzling and somewhat out of place, I enjoy reading the Inductions. They are rather funny and, in my opinion, goes well with some of play's themes (I will not go into this as I don't want to spoil it for those who have not read the play).

The change in Sly's attitude and his willingness to go along with the 'deception' is very interesting and can be true for all of us under different circumstances, can it not? :)

Redzeppelin
01-10-2007, 09:10 PM
Yes - and the key word you used was "choice" - Sly chose to believe he was who he was told he was. This is an important idea in terms of what will happen later in the play.

Virgil
01-10-2007, 09:29 PM
well in the first place his speech is rough , i dont know the rythem changes I think somthing but if you say it ut loud in the beging his speech is harsher and sort of bitty ut towards the end it suddenly more flowwy

if you get my meaning

Yes, I agree with you. I see it too. I take it that in part I, he is completely drunk, and in part II, he has sobered up.

Virgil
01-10-2007, 09:36 PM
Janine,

I think you are right that this kind of device was not used in any other Shakespeare play (if anyone can think of one, please let us know! :)). Even though initially it seems puzzling and somewhat out of place, I enjoy reading the Inductions. They are rather funny and, in my opinion, goes well with some of play's themes (I will not go into this as I don't want to spoil it for those who have not read the play).

The change in Sly's attitude and his willingness to go along with the 'deception' is very interesting and can be true for all of us under different circumstances, can it not? :)

I don't think there is any other Shakespeare play with this frame. I remember reading that Shakespeare inhereted the story this way. I'll try to research it. I wish Petrarch was in this conversation.

Virgil
01-10-2007, 11:25 PM
The change in Sly's attitude and his willingness to go along with the 'deception' is very interesting and can be true for all of us under different circumstances, can it not? :)

I thought he really believed it. Are you saying he's just going along?

Janine
01-11-2007, 01:55 AM
Yes, I thought he believed it, also. I am in agreement with Virgil about that. I just think maybe one believes subconsciously, if it is a better scenerio. As he pointed out, when waking, maybe the past was his dream and this is reality; he seems to have reversed it to his advantage. His deception reminds me of "The Emperor's New Clothes". The Emperor wanted to believe he was wearing fine garments, so he believed it. His imagination took over, in a sense.

Vesta Luna
01-12-2007, 12:14 AM
Christopher Sly is quite drunk as the induction begins. When he wakes is he still drunk? Is it the next day and he suffering a hangover? This seems an important detail to me. If he is still drunk, then the joke the hunters are playing on him might later just be a blurry memory, even a black out. The play will complete, the poor man will fall asleep and wake the next day totally dazed and wondering, "what the hey"!?
If more time has elapsed and he is suffering a hangover, wakes, furry mouthed, in the strange new reality of being a wealthy lord with his un-named wife, well, he would certainly play along with the gag to see where it goes. Comfort for one suffering a hangover? Few would look that gift horse in the mouth. Especially if they will offer him a little hair of the dog, a cute little page wife, and a comical play.
I don't get the sense of any cruelty in the ruse, just folks having fun.
I looked in Wikepedia and they said inductions were also in Hamlet and Midsummer's Night Dream. I looked, but could not find them in the same format (at the very beginning) as Shrew.
Enjoying everyone's comments immensely.

Virgil
01-12-2007, 12:20 AM
I just got a hold of the BBC dramatization of the The Shrew and they cut out the Inductions all together.

Vesta Luna (cool name, BTW:thumbs_up ), I would think he might be somewhat sober but disoriented when he wakes up. He certainly in the mood to be frisky with who he thinks is his wife.

Welcome to lit net Vesta and please continue to join our conversation. I'm ready to go onto Act I. But I'll give my comments on that tomorrow.

Nightshade
01-12-2007, 05:19 AM
Which one Virg? The new modernised one what wasthe series called oh yes Shakespear re-told with shirley Henderson and rufus sewell??

Virgil
01-12-2007, 09:20 AM
Which one Virg? The new modernised one what wasthe series called oh yes Shakespear re-told with shirley Henderson and rufus sewell??

No. Back in the late 1970's and early 1980s the BBC put together dramatizations of all the Shakespeare plays. The Taming of the Shrew has a production date of 1980 and stars John Cleese as Petruchio. He's the only name i recognize but I'm not good with knowing actors.

Here are a couple of web sites.
http://www.screenonline.org.uk/tv/id/527447/index.html

http://www.moviemail-online.co.uk/films/14661/The_Taming_Of_The_Shrew_(BBC)/

http://www.bardolatry.com/Taming-7.jpg

Nightshade
01-12-2007, 09:22 AM
Cleese? oh that might be goood:nod: :D:D

Janine
01-13-2007, 03:36 PM
Cleese? oh that might be goood:nod: :D:D

Wow, I did not know there was a John Cleese version or a version with Rufus Sewell (who I have seen in many adaptations, especially Hardy and Elliot novels). I went to my local library and checked out the only version they have of the play - the one with Burton/Taylor, but it is far from my favorite film. I just thought it might refresh my memory on the plot and characters, since I read the play last year, or it may have been the year before. I will try to find time to re-read it as we go along.

Question: why are there two separate threads on "Taming of the Shrew" ? This might confuse people.

Vesta Luna
01-13-2007, 06:15 PM
I am on to Scene 1 & 2, but still very curious about this induction. It seems very dismissive on the BBC film maker's part to delete it. I can visualize all kinds of interesting and imaginative techniques. One would be the whole film made through the eyes of Chris, as the play truly is. It would begin with him narrating and setting up the scenario. They might add his commentaries through the play. At the end he might be Shakespeare himself, a grandchild of Katarina telling the tale, or oh heck, you get the picture. Can't you hear him, slurring his words, sounding a little or a lot foolish?
I will have to find the Liz and Richard version. What a duo!
Oh, yes, Virgil... I think your assumption about Chris's state of intoxication is correct. I really am beginning to like him as a vehicle into the play. Made no sense at first, but that is what digging into is all about.

Virgil
01-15-2007, 12:27 AM
Yes - and the key word you used was "choice" - Sly chose to believe he was who he was told he was. This is an important idea in terms of what will happen later in the play.

You know, Red, I didn't catch on to what you meant when I first read this. Now I see.

Scheherazade
01-19-2007, 02:47 PM
Question: why are there two separate threads on "Taming of the Shrew" ? This might confuse people.There is a different thread dedicated to the discussion of each act to make the discussion more concentrated. They are all clearly labeled so, hopefully, there won't be any confusion.

There is also a general thread for more general aspects and questions.

Redzeppelin
01-19-2007, 07:38 PM
You know, Red, I didn't catch on to what you meant when I first read this. Now I see.

Thanks. I made this point in light of some I will be making as we progress deeper into the play. Althought the play - on its surface - appears to be about the perennial "battle of the sexes," I think there's more to it, and that the idea of "choosing" one's identity will play a crucial role. More on that later.

xman
04-02-2007, 01:55 PM
I am on to Scene 1 & 2, but still very curious about this induction. It seems very dismissive on the BBC film maker's part to delete it.
It is frequently done since it seeds stage difficulties. Do you keep sly on stage distaracting the audience from the Kate & Petruchio the whole time? When or how do you get him off? Do you go back to him later? Since there's no scene available for it what does one do with it? A lot of directors just eliminate it, but I think it can have a lot to add if you bookend the play with Sly somehow. There's no evidence that Shakespeare did this, but I would like to see it.


Can you point it out Night? I don't see what you're talking about. Sly is supposed to be drunk i think.
He begins speaking in verse. you can tell because of the capital letters at the beginning of his lines.


The book (a present from Mom for Christmas) is entitled "Shakespeare" by Another Name: The Life of Edward de Vere, Earl of Oxford, the Man Who was Shakespeare. The author's name is Mark Anderson, ISBN# 1-592-40103-1
Make sure you follow it up with Irvin Leigh Matus' excellent book, Shakespeare: In Fact (http://www.renaissancemagazine.com/books/shakes.html).


I love Marlowe too (nobody has answered my thread question on Marlowe! :( ), I think he was dead too soon. Ever read The Reckoning, by Charles Nichol? - it's an investigation of Marlowe's death. Fascinating.
Yeah. Confirmed athiest and homosexual, spying for the English government in continental Europe is called back by the Queen and stabbed through the head by his own bodyguard. Had he lived, this may have been a Marlowe reading series instead of Shakespeare.

X

kelby_lake
11-29-2009, 09:36 AM
Are you allowed to extend the part of the Induction? If you can't do it verbally, I'd certainly have Sly and his 'wife' go off to bed with the others at the end (well, not actually with them if you get my meaning). However I think that's sort of implied in Act 1 Scene 1, when Sly wishes that the play was over though he praises it (presumably so he can enjoy some 'alone' time with his 'wife')