What is the signifigance of HISTORY?

[dramasnot6]

Why do we learn, analyze and discover pieces of history? What is it's impact on modern day? What is the appeal? I have researched a few quotes to get the ideas rolling.

History is the sum total of the things that could have been avoided.


The lessons of the past are ignored and obliterated into a contemporary antagonism known as the generation gap.

History never repeats itself ,as most people fear. People usually repeat history.

The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.

We would like to live as we once lived, but history will not permit it.

Modern men are afraid of the past. It is a record of human achievement, but its other face is human defeat.

History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon.

[Silv]

Hm..just some thoughts:

Have you read 1984? There, Winston lives in a world where history is mutable. Records are erased on a daily basis to cast a good light on "Big Brother", who is always right and who never fails in his prophecies of the future. In a world where there is no reliable source of history, Winston has only his memories of the past to guide him into the future. History in this case plays a role in showing him that the world has changed. He knows that there wasn't always a shortage of basic necessities, and that the world, previously, never had a succession of wars. In this sense, you could say that from history, we learn what mankind did that was successful and try to create and improve upon such situations. Likewise, it is supposed to allow us the chance to avoid taking the same shaky steps as our predecessors who have wreaked havoc or misery upon others. We do so in order to avoid the scenario where "people usually repeat history" (I assume history here is used in the sense of shortfalls and misery such as warfare rather than happy tales of the past).

As to why we are constantly learning and discovering as well as analyzing history, I think it is both because we'd like to make progress in terms of science (evolution), and because we'd like to uncover new works of literature that will unlock doors to the cultures of the past. This has an impact on modern day since it revitalizes lost identities. For example, the Cultural Revolution in China saw the massive burning of books and works of art: "men are afraid of the past. It is a record of human achievement, but its other face is human defeat". The need to "purify" their people is a good illustration of this concept.

Today, we see China not only regretting their actions, but trying to uncover any traces that may have been left from the destruction. Their deliberate deletion of history has caused them much grief. A lot of this has also got to do with the pride of being who you are - your identity - and what your country/nation/culture has accomplished.

Digging into the past is a form of knowledge that adds to our understanding of what we should avoid, and what we shouldn't do. It is only a guide, though. An interesting thing to note is that it does not tell us what we should do.

[dramasnot6]

Hm..just some thoughts:

Have you read 1984? There, Winston lives in a world where history is mutable. Records are erased on a daily basis to cast a good light on "Big Brother", who is always right and who never fails in his prophecies of the future. In a world where there is no reliable source of history, Winston has only his memories of the past to guide him into the future. History in this case plays a role in showing him that the world has changed. He knows that there wasn't always a shortage of basic necessities, and that the world, previously, never had a succession of wars. In this sense, you could say that from history, we learn what mankind did that was successful and try to create and improve upon such situations. Likewise, it is supposed to allow us the chance to avoid taking the same shaky steps as our predecessors who have wreaked havoc or misery upon others. We do so in order to avoid the scenario where "people usually repeat history" (I assume history here is used in the sense of shortfalls and misery such as warfare rather than happy tales of the past).

As to why we are constantly learning and discovering as well as analyzing history, I think it is both because we'd like to make progress in terms of science (evolution), and because we'd like to uncover new works of literature that will unlock doors to the cultures of the past. This has an impact on modern day since it revitalizes lost identities. For example, the Cultural Revolution in China saw the massive burning of books and works of art: "men are afraid of the past. It is a record of human achievement, but its other face is human defeat". The need to "purify" their people is a good illustration of this concept.

Today, we see China not only regretting their actions, but trying to uncover any traces that may have been left from the destruction. Their deliberate deletion of history has caused them much grief. A lot of this has also got to do with the pride of being who you are - your identity - and what your country/nation/culture has accomplished.

Digging into the past is a form of knowledge that adds to our understanding of what we should avoid, and what we shouldn't do. It is only a guide, though. An interesting thing to note is that it does not tell us what we should do.

Some very good points there Silv(nice to meet you by the way, you seem like a very wise person). Yes, i have read 1984 and think its an excellent example of the importance and power that comes from studying and recording history. I especially liked how the idea of history being flexible in terms of facts and truth to ones own opinion. I disagree with this but at the same time find it somewhat true in society. Facts are presented to us, and then taken into consideration and interpretation by millions of people. They are bent, embellished with bias, manipulated..yet still believed in all the contradictory forms they are presented in but at least one person. We can also think, what is history? Is it a series of facts only distorted by people later on, or is it a collection of each individual's perceptions and beliefs molded into one understanding?
There are hundreds of examples of repeating mistakes of the past even with an agknowledgement of history. Maybe history is to serve as a reminder that some habits, despite the scientific progress you mentioned, are a permenant stain on the human condition. We can not purely learn from the mistakes of the past, in order to take a lesson to heart we must learn it directly. i guess in a way this is also support of how the past doesnt serve as a direct guide as to how life should be lived and run. I personally like history, because it keeps humans from getting to full of themselves. I believe at one point we all take on an anthropocentric attitude in some way, and history serves as a reminder that we are not the be all and end all of wisdom and accomplishment. We have achieved some of the greatest things known the the earth, but we have also corrupted and destroyed equally great things.

[B-Mental]

Isn't there a quote that "the victors write history"...Ohhh, and then you gotta pick up some Howard Zinn... a bit of "social" history does you well.

[dramasnot6]

Thanks for the reccomendation! Social history is by far my favorite kind, nothing stronger then words from the people themselves.

The victors write history...very interesting indeed. Taking my thoughts on how modern day interpretations of history vary, and applying the same bias expression of facts to the primary writers and tellers of them. definetly something to put into consideration..i will think more on it tomorrow. I'm getting sleepy and sloppy in my arguments....

[B-Mental]

I hope you sleep historically. I thought about that quote for a long time... I do believe it applies to recent histories, but is much less sound on ancient times, or medieval, etc....

[dramasnot6]

Isn't there a quote that "the victors write history"...Ohhh, and then you gotta pick up some Howard Zinn... a bit of "social" history does you well.

Perhaps more official documentation of history, particulary when it comes to war and conflict, is rather bias to those who want to preserve a victorious image of themselves for future generations. Yet history doesnt only live in the textbooks, but in art forms and literature written at the time. From a social, general perspective we are more realistically informed of conflicts.

[Redzeppelin]

Regardless of who writes it, we still need it. Human beings are notorious for their inability to assess a situation whilst in the midst of it. We're really good, sometimes, at hindsight - and history allows us to exercise our hindsight. History is kind of like a collective memory; now, think where you'd be if your memory erased every night (there was a movie done on this I think several years ago) - you'd have to relearn all kinds of things. Memory is what allows us to develop. I think History functions in much the same way. Through shared memory (inaccurate as all memory and all history is) we gain hindsight that allows us to develop and change in positive directions (one would hope).

[Lily Adams]

This is pointless to say because the question has already been answered, but ah well.

So we don't make the same dumb mistakes. (Look at Hitler when he invaded Russia. Ha. Didn't read his Napoleonic history.) The more we know about the past, we can predict and prevent in the future.

It's the story of the human race! That's kind of weird to learn about everything else except where we came from.

And, most importantly, it's there for Lily Adams to fangirl over.

[dramasnot6]

:D History does make for some nice entertainment and escape,Ill have to agree with you there Lily. Congrats on going past 100 posts by the way! :thumbs_up
I guess to see history for a lighter view, when educating us it also provides entertainment purposes. All the myths, jokes, references around history in modern day take up a good chunk of the media and other forms of entertainment. We constantly make movies set in the past. I guess vicarious experiences dont take a make believe world neccesarily, just the history channel and a decent imagination :p

[dramasnot6]

Oh, and also Miss Lily, never think that anything idea or contribution to a discussion is "pointless". There is no one answer or way to say something when discussion topics like this and every person in the world has a unique and useful contribution to be made :D

[Laindessiel]

Facts are presented to us, and then taken into consideration and interpretation by millions of people. They are bent, embellished with bias, manipulated..yet still believed in all the contradictory forms they are presented in but at least one person. .

Exactly how my signature explains it. We're tired. We want truth. But in order for you to get it, you must make your move. Now.


We can also think, what is history? Is it a series of facts only distorted by people later on, or is it a collection of each individual's perceptions and beliefs molded into one understanding?


We can not purely learn from the mistakes of the past, in order to take a lesson to heart we must learn it directly.

This is what I've learned from the experiences life has brought us. Things and lessons are presented to you in a way that it was somehow painted with others' distorted ideas and perceptions that you would (sometimes) disagree upon upon learning what the lessons truly are and how they were conceived. I believe that it should be YOUR feet, your HEART and YOUR soul to be risked out there in the cold in order for those lessons to be bequeathed straight to your heart; and then, and ONLY then will you understand and give full compliance to what has been termed as a "lesson". Jaundiced opinions are never considered opinions once inflicted with others' beliefs. It must be YOUR own understanding of things, the pure use of your head, that will give meaning and depth to the lessons you've learned.

Nice thread, Drame. :thumbs_up

[Poetess]

Hey Drama, nice one.

I also support it "we learn from our mistakes"
We do analyze and study out history so that we know our background, we know the mistakes that put us in valuable situations, interpret the pattern of ancient lives..

It also shows you the reason of your current country`s situation.

[ghideon]

Hey Lain(if I can call you that for short?) I love what you wrote about the importance of heart and soul. Important to say and well said.

History is is a narrative. Historians tell us "He did this, she did that, this is what was going on at the time when these folks were living. A President, a Senator, a war...Ms X told Mr Y to do ABC and 1,000 died"

History is non-fiction. That is what we have been told. Fiction is "something invented by the imagination." And then there is non-fiction, the facts(I am reminded of Hard Days by Dickens "facts, facts, nothing but facts..." or something like that). Anyway, the truth is not quite as easy as the above fiction/non-fiction divison would suggest. At least when I think about it.

Whatever history one reads, and I for one do not read enough of it, "fiction" is just as vital. I think that is why so many people like documentary history(a genre that lies somewhere in the middle)...the words of the "ordinary" people and their stories and tales and thoughts. It touches me in places where traditional ways of presenting history do not. (I have also recently been on a bit of a campaign against the word "ordinary" so often used to describe thosewho are not famous. Who is actually "ordinary" once you spend more then an hour with them.)

Fiction seems more upfront. This is a creation, fiction states. History, though stands up...a Greek God and speaks in a sonorous voice proclaiming "This is what happened. This is true." As I sit here bed unmade, books scattered, dried up tea bag under my window and an empty coffee cup(which I guess now has no real reason to be--poor thing)atop my kitchen counter...I really want that Greek God...Historayeus...to tell me truths and facts. Yes facts. I want some assurance about the ways of the world. And while this Immortal Being called History does tell me facts and facts that are most important to know I do not want to get too close...I suppose history can draw me in and serve as an escape as easily as the words of Sir Tolkien did with his Hobbits and beasts. The insecurity I feel stops me from doubting and the older I get the more important doubting has become.

I just finished reading a wonderful little book called The Power Of Mindful Learning...five stars at least.
For now I will simply quote one of the last sentences:
"How can I know if I do not ask? Why will I ask if I believe I already know." It still blows me away.


One example of how the power of language and authorial power can be both a wonder and a warning is Whitman.

I read a fascinating critique of Whitman that suggested his intoxicating voice that could hold a blade of grass, a dying soldier and the concept of Democracy all at the same time and speak of this universe with such beauty...this strength could be a danger. He becomes almost God like in his grand reach. Everything finite and infinite is absorbed and given back but such power verges on despotic. One can imagine a head of state believing that he too has the heavens,hell and earth all at his disposal...that he can represent all and that all reflects him and that, this king thinks "makes me extraordinary and the one who should lead all other mortals who are lesser then."

Ohhh...I have once again strayed from home. The discussion is about History and I am talking Walt. But although I may have strayed I am not, I hope, so far from the topic as to be deemed irrelevant and sentenced to wear a scarlet I for the rest of my life. ;)

[Lily Adams]

Thanks!

Yes, history is great entertainment, my mom likes HGTV better and finds that "relaxing", and she doesn't like the history channel as much because she doesn't like a the head-cutting off and invading stuff. :rolleyes: Her loss. I LOVE "Worst Jobs in History". Great show.

Ah, alright, I will remeber what you said about contributions, thank you!


It also shows you the reason of your current country`s situation.

YES.

[genoveva]

I have researched a few quotes to get the ideas rolling.

History is the sum total of the things that could have been avoided.


The lessons of the past are ignored and obliterated into a contemporary antagonism known as the generation gap.

History never repeats itself ,as most people fear. People usually repeat history.

The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.

We would like to live as we once lived, but history will not permit it.

Modern men are afraid of the past. It is a record of human achievement, but its other face is human defeat.

History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon.

It would be helpful if you could cite your source of these quotes. Thanks if you can!

[dramasnot6]

I couldnt find sources for all of them but here are the ones that i could:

History is the sum total of the things that could have been avoided.
-Konrad Adenauer

"History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon."
-Napoleon

"We would like to live as we once lived, but history will not permit it."
-John Fitzgerald Kennedy

[Poetess]

Archaoelogy, fundamentally, seeks to protect our archaeological remains (and they belong to all of us)

Discovering our history, analyzing and studying it, leads to preserving it and its remains. This is a good source of tourism and money for one`s country.

Long ago, the Lebanese Department of Antiquities didn`t heed the request of villagers which was constructing a small museum to keep the historical remains of Lebanon - knowing that Lebanon was occupied by over 16 cultures: Eyptians, Phoenicians, Assyrians, Babolynians, Alexander the Great`s Army... And the result was an inestimable loss of heritage information. Not only, foreigners walked off with the artifacts from the site.
Some of those lost heritages involve multi-million dollars.

So, History isn`t something to under-estimate. It is, as I mentioned, a good source of tourism, benifits, and natural identities..

[Fat Mike]

If you know your past, you'll know the present better.

[Fat Mike]

The end of the sentence should be "...understand the present better."

P.S:Why isn't there an "Edit" button?

Edit: Now it turned up.

[Poetess]

There is! Before the Quote button.

[Silv]

If you know your past, you'll know the present better.

For some reason, my mind keeps wandering back to 1984 and your sentence happened to remind me of this particular quote:

"Whoever controls the past, controls the present; whoever controls the present, controls the future." -George Orwell, 1984

[dramasnot6]

New question: If one controls the past and history, do they control other's memories? Do they control their context? If so, then yes, they do control the present. The present is shape by ideas and actions influenced by each individual's context. Can you change a context to the point of changing their thoguht process? Sort of like how they did in 1984?

[Shadowsarin]

The whole "We learn from our mistakes" is a bit of a cop-out really. If we have learned from the mistakes of the past, why is there still so much hatred and anger and so on in this world?

Also, more often than not, is history not mainly used as an excuse:

I.e: "Remember the atrocity commited against us last time that will excuse the atrocity that we're about to commit today!"

[dramasnot6]

We may learn from our mistakes, but they do not teach us how to overcome ourselves. Some aspects of the human condition can not be defeated, they have too strong an instictual hold. But learning the consequences of our actions promotes more outrage at and wisdom about our mistakes among individuals. Youre venturing into the big bad world of moral conscious there Shadow. Just because someone knows something is wrong doesnt neccesarily mean they wont do it. History is there if we want it. Most of us choose not to learn from our mistakes, but little by little some of us do. It is the little good in the world that preserves the rare milk of human kindness that keeps life worth living. That little good is what the cruelties of history inspired, it may be only a shadow to the anger and hate but I am grateful it is there at all.

[Nightshade]

The whole "We learn from our mistakes" is a bit of a cop-out really. If we have learned from the mistakes of the past, why is there still so much hatred and anger and so on in this world?

Also, more often than not, is history not mainly used as an excuse:

I.e: "Remember the atrocity commited against us last time that will excuse the atrocity that we're about to commit today!"

I want to add somthing , for the main part I belive history is important but at the same time I think we put too much emphesis on it . Take apologising for slavery now for example. Its been abolished for pretty much 200 hundred years so ake the stragglers and everything say its about 130 years since slave trade stopped. Why are we apogising for it now when no one who can actually rember the pain is alive? Surley it only highluights the differances and can only create badwill? On the other hand IM not black ( or whatever the PC term is today) but I have lots of good friends who are and they see the pont in it. Still why arent the englsih apolgising to egypt , and gives back our things and while they are at it the americans can give back the cant think what its called needle thing that stands near the whitehouse, and THe french can apologise for napolean , who else The mamleek could apologise but oh yes they dont even exsist anymore.


there thats off my chest now , sorry for the rant but it is a point that sticks wih me. History is important I wont argue with that But we should be learning from it and moveing on fixing the future instead of trying to fix the past.

[masterlibrarian]

So we don't make the same dumb mistakes. (Look at Hitler when he invaded Russia. Ha. Didn't read his Napoleonic history.) The more we know about the past, we can predict and prevent in the future.



Hi, I'd like to join this intersting discussion
The previous quote isn't exactly, the fact that Hitler didn't read Napoleonic history isn't true. Hitler knowed very well the Napoleonic campaign in Russia, and it's tragic end, in fact he started the invasion in early spring to avoid to combat in winter times. But something goes wrong in the logistic apparatus. The lesson of the history is that either if we know that things will goes in a certain direction, we hope that this time, history will be different.
Our hopes and our fear brings us to always repeat the same errors, even if we already know that history (correlated to humanity) never changes.
I believe that if only we can look at the future without being so scary of our past and knowing the limits of being human, we can avoid to make the same errors.
P.S. I apologize myself for my bad english, I hope you can understand my post :blush:

[dramasnot6]

Dont worry Librarian(if i can call you that?) your points were very clear :D :thumbs_up I didnt even know english wasnt your first language until you said so.
"Our hopes and our fear brings us to always repeat the same errors, even if we already know that history (correlated to humanity) never changes." this is exactly what i meant in my last post about the human condition being too strong a limitation to be effected by history sometimes, even if we do learn from it. :nod:

[Lily Adams]

Don't worry, your English is great! :)

Anyways, yes, he did start the campaign in the spring, but he kinda forgot that Russia is a very big place...a very hard place to conquer. He didn't even bring winter uniforms just in case!

[dramasnot6]

Don't worry, your English is great! :)

Anyways, yes, he did start the campaign in the spring, but he kinda forgot that Russia is a very big place...a very hard place to conquer. He didn't even bring winter uniforms just in case!


Too much of an ego developed from triumph over other humans he forgot a little thing called Man VS Nature

[jgx]

I suppose we learn from history. In fact, I am sure there have been many many times when people, leaders, whomever has learned from the past and accounts...written or verbal accounts of the past.

Ofcourse saying that someone learned something might not be saying too much or it could be saying everything. I mean you can learn that a submachine gun killed more people then a bow and arrow.

Or you can learn that we still know so little about Shakespeares genius.

Me? What have I learned...from my past....I mean I have my own personal history....yea? Its not exactly a book but...

Yea...I mean there are all sorts of different things one can learn and also there is learning and then applying what you have learned. I think history is full of many many individuals who have learned many things that they did not know how to apply or they learned it and then forgot....or...I mean

There is also the question of how does one go about determining what has been learned and what has not...I probably have learned many things that I have never had to use, apply or even ponder on. The same is true for most people if not everybody.

I often have a sense that fiction teaches more then "fact" and that novels teach more then history. That is why I decided to major in literature when I was in college. I figured...with literature I get to study language and character and art and psychology(of the reader, of the author, of the characters).

All of this Holocaust Revisionism stuff...it is so out there that it seems absurd.

But it may shed light on history and lessons. In this case the objective facts are so totally clear in terms of what happened but this is not the case in many other examples.

I guess it shows how anybody who really sets their mind to it can...I guess you decide what you want to learn and then you go get whatever you need to learn it...so they want to learn about the fake Holocaust and they then come up with the facts that they then study. It all seems mad but is it really all that bizzare if you just look at the objective dynamics...take the content..the subject...the topic away.

What I learn from history may have a great deal to do with what I want to learn from history and then I will be predisposed to focus on somethings and not others. This is why arguments are so difficult...fact this and fact that and double fact this and double times that fact and it can go on and on because there are millions of facts about...well about a man looking at the moon.

Well...I will just put a lid on it for now...there are not only a million facts for that fellow and the moon but probably a million different things that could be said about history and its lessons.

nighty night

:yawnb:

[zanna]

Has anyone mentioned hindsight being 20/20? How many times have you said/did something, and then had a d'oh! moment right afterward, because you just realized how it could have been better? But, do you usually remember the next time? Possibly, possibly not.
And sometimes, it seems to me, it's just better to leave history alone. What ifs can be interesting, but we can't really test them out; it'd never be the same the second time around.
Also, everyone has their own perspective. We were studying some ancient history, and people have come across two particular records. Each one belonged to one side of the warring peoples, but they said entirely different things. The attackers claimed that the people in the city were trapped, starving and that they'd beaten them! But, the people in the city claimed that the attackers weren't even a nuisance. They were comfortable inside their walls, and just kept the gate shut . . . eventually, the army gave up and left them alone.
Yet, the main details of the battle matched almost exactly -- they both said the same numbers of men, days, casualties, etc. Only the twist of the outcome was different. So, who really "won?" And can we even say? :)

Enough for now. Great thread, D.

[dramasnot6]

Some great thoughts zanna! :)