Revels before Lent

[SleepyWitch]

hi, everyone :wave:

I've finished a really long short story (23 A4 pages, but don't let that deter you :lol: )
Please give me lots of feedback and tell me what you like/ don't like about it.
(also tell me if I've got any prepositions or tenses wrong, especially progressive tense where it should be simple:))

let me know if it's too "soppy" or or not soppy enough :)
is it too fast paced?
do I need to describe the character's feelings more explicitely or are they more or less clear from their facial expressions/dialogue?

if I may say so myself: I'm proud of this story because all of it is fictive and not based on my life or that of anyone I know.
It's also got a beginning, a middle and an end, which is nice :lol:
Now that it's finished I'm not so sure it's all that great, though.

~THANKS FOR YOUR HELP~

EDIT: I've changed one of the key scenes. this is the new version
latest update (Feb 2007): there's a new ending. hope it's better. it's beginning is marked with a couple of red undscores_________

[Virgil]

I'll try to read it over the weekend, Sleepy. I printed it ou, but i won't have until then. I'll have to see what prevented you from reading Antony and Cleopatra. :p

[SleepyWitch]

hehe, thanks Virgil :)
I'd say "enjoy" if I didn't think it was a crappy story :)

I will print out the first act of A&C now :)

[Virgil]

Good about A&C. We've got a conversation going on the first scene. That's only a ten minute read. You might to jump in. :)

[Schokokeks]

Hi there, Sleepy !

I've just completed reading your story, and I'm very impressed ! It was worth while deferring Antony and Cleopatra, I see :nod:.

Sorry I can't comment that extensively, because therefore I'd have to think about it for a longer time, but for now, off the top of my head:

I liked the opening scene very much, the setting, description of Julia and her gay friend, the lines in italics. Two more passages I liked very much was the arrival of her aunt and the passage about the weather anticipating something wrong.
The story also felt to me a bit like a local-colour one, with all the references to Carnival (I hate it, too, but love Werther's :D ), which made it quite easy for me to picture the setting and atmosphere, as I'm familiar with German Carnival customs. Though I don't know what kind of effect that will have on somebody who doesn't, but you'll surely see :).

**** SPOILER TO COME !!! ****



The story with Bernhard, however, I felt it was a bit rushed. I can't really explain why, but she had hardly arrived at the family's house and he already, although being presented as lifeless and boring, especially by Aunt Imgard, excerts a fascination on her. I missed some kind of reflection by Julia on the upcoming love/affection between them.

All in all, I liked the beginning better than the end.
Another point that struck me as original was the title, fits very well to the setting as well as (as somehow it should :D) to the plot.
Oh, and you'll have to tell me where you got the idea with the Harry Potter polyphone thingy from ! If that really exist, I need it ! :D
In conclusion: I found your story very interesting and worth reading :nod:.

Did you write it for fun, or was it an assignment ?

PS: If you don't mind, I think I found a couple of typos, to which I'd like to point you politely :D:
* ... the guy's hair (page 3)
* ... disbelief. "I ... (page 4)
* ... I'm on my own. (page 9) I'm not sure if that was intended but you'll know ;).
* ... main places of interest (page 19)
* oh, and then there's one more thing where I wasn't quite sure whether it was intended or not, but I noticed some words / expressions were written in red...(I do that, too, in my first draft in order to mark these words that I want to revise/change when going over the story again.) But of course, here it could also have some meaning in the story, which I must have overlooked for now :D.

[SleepyWitch]

**** SPOILER TO COME !!! ****



The story with Bernhard, however, I felt it was a bit rushed. I can't really explain why, but she had hardly arrived at the family's house and he already, although being presented as lifeless and boring, especially by Aunt Imgard, excerts a fascination on her. I missed some kind of reflection by Julia on the upcoming love/affection between them.

All in all, I liked the beginning better than the end.
Another point that struck me as original was the title, fits very well to the setting as well as (as somehow it should :D) to the plot.
Oh, and you'll have to tell me where you got the idea with the Harry Potter polyphone thingy from ! If that really exist, I need it ! :D
In conclusion: I found your story very interesting and worth reading :nod:.

Did you write it for fun, or was it an assignment ?




Hey Schoko, thanks for your feedback! yep, I agree that the Bernhard thing is a bit rushed and that some reflexion on Julia's part would be better, but I wasn't sure how to do it.
I'll think about it and try to find a way that doesn't make it too waffly.
In a way i want it to be a rushed and irrational thing but you are right that it seems a bit too rushed. *lazy witch*
hehe, nope i didn't check if the ring tone exists. there's this choir in one of the HP films were the sing the Shakespeare lines and I thought it was fun because she's a Renaissance scholar and when the phone rings in the story it means trouble (first her silly student and also the fact that she's just said something rushed to Uncle Bernhard and then her mother). So I thought this would be the perfect ring tone for her :) :)

I wrote it for fun :)
thanks for correcting the spellos, I'll change them later.
I left some phrases in red because i have to check if you can say them. couldn't be bothered to do it this morning because I corrected so many spellos.
stayed up till 3 last night to finish writing this ---> sleepy

What's your impression of Julia? Do you like her?

about the two parts (trip with Roland/// stay with relatives), I'm a bit worried that they don't really fit together that well, but then events in real life are often unconnected and I wanted Julia's schedule to be crammed and stressful


but she had hardly arrived at the family's house and he already, although being presented as lifeless and boring, especially by Aunt Imgard, excerts a fascination on her. I missed some kind of reflection by Julia on the upcoming love/affection between them.
let's say Aunt Irmgard has her own agenda (did it become clear in the story? I mean, did you get what she was up to at all those tennis club meetings?and of course her remarks aren't always terribly conistent), but there is a reason she presents him as boring.
The idea was that he kind of lives in a quite little place inside his own mind where he doesn't need to listen to Irmgards incessant chattering. But whether he really is that boring is a different matter.
maybe I'll have to find a better way to make that clear

*end of waffle* sorry :)

[Schokokeks]

hehe, nope i didn't check if the ring tone exists. there's this choir in one of the HP films were the sing the Shakespeare lines and I thought it was fun because she's a Renaissance scholar and when the phone rings in the story it means trouble (first her silly student and also the fact that she's just said something rushed to Uncle Bernhard and then her mother). So I thought this would be the perfect ring tone for her :) :)
Riiiight, it's from Macbeth, isn't it ? *slow brains* :D Now indeed, it's very fitting ! :nod:. I'll try to find it anyway :)


stayed up till 3 last night to finish writing this ---> sleepy Wow, congratulations on so much perseverance ! ;)


What's your impression of Julia? Do you like her?
Yepp, I do. I liked the scene when she's introduced and contrasted against slowly-reacting Roland. Great idea with the punk clothes of her friend ! I first was a bit bewildered with a punk univ professor :D.


let's say Aunt Irmgard has her own agenda (did it become clear in the story? I mean, did you get what she was up to at all those tennis club meetings?and of course her remarks aren't always terribly conistent), but there is a reason she presents him as boring.
The idea was that he kind of lives in a quite little place inside his own mind where he doesn't need to listen to Irmgards incessant chattering. But whether he really is that boring is a different matter.
maybe I'll have to find a better way to make that clear
:blush: The only time I was wondering about that was when she passed that remark about him in the car as Julia leaves. That moment suggested to me that there was something behind her behaviour with regards to him, but before I frankly never thought about it, only that there's something wrong with their relationship as she keeps demolishing him :).
But wait for someone else's opinion on that before you change anything. I only read the story once and maybe it's clearer to someone else !

Anyway, nice story ! :nod:.

[Virgil]

Sleepy, I really enjoyed this story. It had me captivated and laughing at times.

"Have you taken your Ritilin?," "the whore", "the Italian guy Enrico...Wow!RRRRRRRRR!," "Is your aunt really a whore," the wonderful conversation with her mother, "Freckles: not so good. Straight nose, straight, glossy brown hair: bonus point." Hehehe. All very funny and entertaining. [What's wrong with freckles BTW? I like girls with freckles.]

Stylistically, just one comment. It think it's best to try to split dialogue into it's own line for each speaker. I got a little confused a couple of times as to who was speaking. But the rest of the writing seemed very polished and in command. I loved the email traffic as a technique. Modern day communications. I'm going to have to try that too somewhere.;)

As to the story:
(1) I agree with Schoky, the Bernhard episodes required (IMO, and everything I'll say IMO without repeating that) more information. I'm not sure still what he was after. Was it a sexual come-on? I think so but I'm not certain. And Julia's reaction to the come-on, her acquienscence, needs some rationale, I think. Why doesn't she stand away or push away? I assume she's sort of been mesmorized by him, but without more of Bernhard's character, I'm not sure why she would be.
(2) There seemed to be a little too much filler that dragged the story out a bit. Some cutting and reducing in a second draft would help. That's why there are second and third drafts.
(3) I'm not sure what the significance of the opening scene is. It sort of gets dropped. But if in your mind as the writer you have a reason, then that's good enough. You're the writer. And I don't think she ever visits him in the hospital like she says she would. Did I miss that? And why is the kid unconscious from just a flesh wound?
(4) If the critical part of the story was Bernhard and Julia's relationship, I think you held that off to the end to long. For a bit of the story I was wondering where is this going? It was entertaining, but I felt it lacked some focus. It seemed that you tried to proportionally write about each day of the week, but perhaps the days don't have to be proportional.
(5) If the carnival supports your theme in some way, then I think it could have been stratched and described in more detail.

Anyway, I really enjoyed it. I hope my commnets help you. So this is what you put off Antony and Cleopatra for? It was worth it. :)

[SleepyWitch]

hey Virgil, thanks for taking the time to read and criticize my story :)
Yep, you're right about the dialogue, I'll space it out more.

I'm not sure still what he was after. Was it a sexual come-on? I think so but I'm not certain. And Julia's reaction to the come-on, her
acquiescence, needs some rationale, I think. Why doesn't she stand away or push away? I assume she's sort of been mesmorized by him, but without more of Bernhard's character, I'm not sure why she would be.
yeah, this is a tricky bit.... I've just discussed it in detail with my boyfriend and, surprsingly, he thinks I shouldn't change anything about that at all.... (surprisingly as in: I think I should, i.e. I'm more critical of my own story than he is). He says the story is self-explanatory and that maybe you as an American need more information and explanations because American films and books tend to give much more information than European ones and leave less blanks.... But then, Schoko agrees with you and she's not American plus you're an educated person with two degrees, so you can't be that...*insert adjective* (=unaccustomed to filling in gaps) :) I'll just have to see what my other friend's in RL think.


Was it a sexual come-on?
what exactly do you mean by a 'sexual come-on'? a) which scene do you mean?
1. the lion thingy at the Carnival or
2.
"There's one more thing." He put his arms around her and held her very gently. Julia gasped and blushed furiously. Should I.. no. She returned his embrace. He was only a little taller than her. She could feel the warmth of his skin through his shirt.
He ran his index finger down her nose and let it rest on her lips. Julia trembled. She closed her eyes.
"There's nothing wrong with your smile." he said. He kissed her on the forehead. Then he let go of her, turned around and walked down the dim corridor. Julia followed him.
(= he's been watching her fool around and knows she's self-conscious about her ^_^ manga style smile)

If it's the thing about the lion, remember he only says that after she kind of takes the first step ("Uncle Bernhard, you truly are the dullest person I've ever met, but if you say something like that again, I'm going to have a crush on you." )
---> on her part, it's more than just acquiescence (but I'm inclined to agree that there needs to be more about the why/how/ etc of it, see below)

if it's the second scene, I'm not sure that 'sexual come-on' is the right word (too harsh).
well, when I wrote this scene, I thought it was kinda sexy but my boyfriend says Bernhard's gesture expresses a lot of emotion and he wouldn't call it sexy. He said that from a man's perspective you'd only do something like that when you care about somebody, not when you're just after sex. (The 'sexy' variety would be more like "He grabbed her and pressed a kiss on her lips. They f***ed". :sick: :) )

As a woman, I'd say what he does is definitely very sensual (if slightly disturbing!!) and, personally, I wouldn't find it..er pushy/rude/coarse (IF I had a crush on him anyway, even if it's only a subconscious crush). If I liked the guy in the first place, I'd probably like it a lot :) (*hiding in a corner to drool over a character I invented myself, how sad is this?*)
Schoko, always keeping in mind that it's an affair kind of thing (vs. "Let's marry and have 5 children because we get along so well and have so much in common"), would you say his behaviour is a come-on or does it express something more emotional/sensual?

I'm not sure still what he was after. Was it a sexual come-on? I think so but I'm not certain.
Schoko and Virgil Did it come across how far they actually go? It was clear to my bf, but I dropped some hints to him in advance... (Again: Let's see what my RL friends think). *NAUGHTY*

[SleepyWitch]

I think so but I'm not certain. And Julia's reaction to the come-on, her acquienscence, needs some rationale, I think. Why doesn't she stand away or push away? I assume she's sort of been mesmorized by him, but without more of Bernhard's character, I'm not sure why she would be.

hehe, I'm in a bit of a dilemma there.
1. I do not want to provide too many explanations. I want it to be an irrational thing and not the kind of relationship were she thinks to herself "Well, we've got a), b) and c) in common, so we'd make a great couple".
I want her to be kind of mesmerized by him and there doesn't need to be any reason that is easy to pin down.
BUT: I do want them to have something in common, as well. I mean, it's not 'just sex' or something.

"Well, you go to work and you live your life." Julia glanced at him again. This time he actually looked straight back at her.
There was something deeply touching about the simplicity of his reply.
If you look at what Julia does in the story, that quote pretty much sums up her way of living, too (not only Bernhards).
I mean, what does she do all the time? She could go to the Carnival or go out etc, but what does she do? Mark her papers. So in a way, she's pretty dull, too.
Plus, she's not just your nice girl from next door, but a univ teacher (who can be pretty bossy/arrogant/ is able to say the nasty things univ teachers need to say). Lots of people depend on her (Roland who's too slow to do first aid even though h e 's the nurse, her silly student who wants to change her topic only a week before the exam and needs competent advice). Her life is manic and she's always rushing around, from her home univ to the conference, from the conference to her papers; she doesn't even manage to reach the town where the conference is without being involved in an accident...
[--> Should I make all of this clearer?]
so Bernhard's reply has a lot of relevance not only to his but also to her situation... [---> should I make it clear what exactly this relevance is?]


Solution:I agree with both of you that she should reflect about it a little more (but not too much). My boyfriend says she shouldn't :)
One solution would be to have her write another e-mail to her friend saying something like "Oh my God, i told him I had a crush on him and I don't know what made me say that. Although in retrospect, I do like him, even though I'm not sure why." blablabla. and her friend writes back something like "You don't need to know what you like about him, just go for it"
that way, it would still be irrational (=she doesn't know what it is she likes about him) but it shows that she's aware of what's about to happen????
What do you think about that?


PS: about Carnival: yep it is loosely related to the theme of the story. Would it help if I stated more explicitly that the main ideas behind Carnival are
a) dressing up/ disguise
b) feeling free to do things you wouldn't normally do (because they are frowned upon/used to be forbidden during the rest of the year)
???


~Thanks so much for your help :)~

[Schokokeks]

As a woman, I'd say what he does is definitely very sensual (if slightly disturbing!!) and, personally, I wouldn't find it..er pushy/rude/coarse (IF I had a crush on him anyway, even if it's only a subconscious crush). If I liked the guy in the first place, I'd probably like it a lot :) (*hiding in a corner to drool over a character I invented myself, how sad is this?*)
Schoko, always keeping in mind that it's an affair kind of thing (vs. "Let's marry and have 5 children because we get along so well and have so much in common"), would you say his behaviour is a come-on or does it express something more emotional/sensual?
Hmm...No, it didn't seem to me as a come-on (but then, I'm not that deep into men's psychology as Virgil might be ;)), especially since the story made clear that they had something in common, not only "dullness" but also scholarly interest (she's a univ prof and he reads some history book), contrasted to Aunt Imgard who probably thinks dullness includes scholary interest :p.
I think you've described the scene as a very sensual one, it didn't occur to me that he was directly after sex, although it was an affair. But if he talked to her / dealt with her in different way in that scene, it wouldn't have fitted to the picture I had of Bernhard from the rest of the story.


Schoko and Virgil Did it come across how far they actually go? It was clear to my bf, but I dropped some hints to him in advance... (Again: Let's see what my RL friends think). *NAUGHTY*
Err...well, they were left alone for one or two times :D

[Schokokeks]

Her life is manic and she's always rushing around, from her home univ to the conference, from the conference to her papers; she doesn't even manage to reach the town where the conference is without being involved in an accident...
[--> Should I make all of this clearer?]
Yes, please :nod:. It didn't seem to me she was that pressed; she had a lot of appointments and was very demanded, but I didn't feel she minded it much. Maybe *ducking from Sleepy's boyfriend :D* because she didn't reflect too much.

so Bernhard's reply has a lot of relevance not only to his but also to her situation... [---> should I make it clear what exactly this relevance is?]
If you decide to make her stressful timetable clearer, I think you can leave it to the reader to make the connection.


Solution:I agree with both of you that she should reflect about it a little more (but not too much). My boyfriend says she shouldn't :)
One solution would be to have her write another e-mail to her friend saying something like "Oh my God, i told him I had a crush on him and I don't know what made me say that. Although in retrospect, I do like him, even though I'm not sure why." blablabla. and her friend writes back something like "You don't need to know what you like about him, just go for it"
that way, it would still be irrational (=she doesn't know what it is she likes about him) but it shows that she's aware of what's about to happen????
What do you think about that?
That would be an idea! On the other hand, I'd like it better if you sneaked in her reflections not bundled together (as in an email), but bit by bit chronologically with the events. You wouldn't have to make her thoughts that explicit because they would be more spontaneous than in written form. But then, she wouldn't be able to receive a response/advice from her friend...
But anyway, these are just my thoughts, as Virgil said, you're the writer ! ;)

By the way, would you mind if I showed the story to one of my fellow students ? I'll make her guess who of the great classic writers wrote it, of course :D.

[Virgil]

I'll just have to see what my other friend's in RL think.


*touches body up and down; feels muscle, bone and flesh, and a fat around the waist* Yes, I do think I exist in real life. :lol:


yeah, this is a tricky bit.... I've just discussed it in detail with my boyfriend and, surprsingly, he thinks I shouldn't change anything about that at all.... (surprisingly as in: I think I should, i.e. I'm more critical of my own story than he is). He says the story is self-explanatory and that maybe you as an American need more information and explanations because American films and books tend to give much more information than European ones and leave less blanks.... But then, Schoko agrees with you and she's not American plus you're an educated person with two degrees, so you can't be that...*insert adjective* (=unaccustomed to filling in gaps) I'll just have to see what my other friend's in RL think.
Here's a rule by no authority but me: A writer should not have to fill gaps in thought and abstraction. (Actually I thought you went too far in explaining the significance of Carnival.) But he needs to have enough to make the story realized. The events and dynamics of the characters shouldn't be guessed at. Like I said, that's from no authority but my opinion. A reader also doesn't have to be provided everything from a short story. But I think the general thrust of the story needs to be clear.

You shouldn't have to change anything if you don't want to, but if you didn't want a sexual connotation between Julia and Uncle Bernhard then I think you openned the door to that. But here's why I think the event is startling:
(1) For an older man to sit on the bed in Julia's room with her, put his arm around her, and stroke her nose after only knowing her for a week seems shocking. If there were suggestions of this relationship prior, then perhaps I missed it.
(2) The man is her uncle, so one can't avoid the subject of incest. Did you really intend to go there? Perhaps so. [Side note, a few of the younger girls have started calling me Uncle Virgil, I hope this is not what they were thinking. :eek: ]

If you intended the above, then perhaps I missed the preparations leading up to them. Of course, now that I think of it, you do call the aunt a "whore." And of course you set the story during Carnival week. I'll re-read it again now that I know where you were heading.

Now, when are you and Schoky going to join the Antony and Cleopatra discussion? :D

[SleepyWitch]

aaargh, do a U-turn there! sorry I've managed to make things even more confusing than they are
of course it's 'sexual' but I meant to say i didn't intend this particular scene as a 'coarse' sexual come-on

hm, seems like the key scene is a tiny bit too vague. my best friend got it right, but she wasn't sure if it means what it does, either. (cf, when Julia wakes up in the middle of the night after they talked about Shakes and looked at the family photos)

nope, he's not her uncle, he's her father's cousins husband (the 'aunt' is her fathers cousin, they just call her aunt), so Julia and Bernhard are not related!

hehe, poor Virgil, I hope I haven't shocked you too much! (hehe, don't worry about the girls calling you Uncle)
poor poor Virgil, the world is full of naughty Europeans :) I'm sorry:bawling:
my best friend says she wouldn't mind Bernhards 'come-on' either. she even says he has a lot of style. she agrees it's "checking out how far he can go" but with a lot of stlye. other guys would just grab her and .."bang".


spello note: on the first but last page the aunt is supposed to say "Now were you!" not "Now did you?"

[Virgil]

nope, he's not her uncle, he's her father's cousins husband (the 'aunt' is her fathers cousin, they just call her aunt), so Julia and Bernhard are not related!

Wouldn't married relatives count as incest too?


poor poor Virgil, the world is full of naughty Europeans :)
:lol: :lol: We have plenty of naughty Americans too. I know that goes on here too.


I'm sorry:bawling:
my best friend says she wouldn't mind Bernhards 'come-on' either. she even says he has a lot of style.
Does she want to meet Uncle Virgil? :lol: No, no, I'm kidding. I couldn't pass up that joke.


she agrees it's "checking out how far he can go" but with a lot of stlye. other guys would just grab her and .."bang".
In my country, that would be rape. In all seriousness, that can't be allowed there, can it?


spello note: on the first but last page the aunt is supposed to say "Now were you!" not "Now did you?"
I going to to read the entire thing again.

[SleepyWitch]

hehe, thanks for all the trouble you take reading my story!

I've come up with something to make it better. will type it up in a second and post it. If you haven't reread it yet, wait for the new version :)

[SleepyWitch]

I've uploaded the revised version (spello correction will follow.).
I've highlighted the major changes and the following passage is on pages 18/19 but I'll quote the new version for your convenience:
_______________________________________________
Julia made towards the door. Bernhard didn't move.
"There's one more thing." He put his arms around her and held her very gently. Julia gasped and blushed furiously. Should I.. no. She returned his embrace. He was only a little taller than her. She could feel the warmth of his skin through his shirt. He ran his index finger down her nose and let it rest on her lips. Julia trembled. She closed her eyes. "There's nothing wrong with your smile." he said. He kissed her on the forehead.
"I'm sorry I called you dull." she whispered. It was out before she knew what she was saying.
"It's OK. I'm used to it. "'The whore' calls me that all the time." Bernhard said softly. He could not ban a touch of sadness from his tone.
So he had overheard everything she had said on the telephone. Was I right about Irmgard and the tennis guy? Something in his expression told her that he did not want to talk about it. She rested her head on his shoulder. All the thoughts she had kept at bay while she marked her papers raced each other in her mind now. Does he know about 'the whore'?... Is he out for revenge? Tit for tat? No, not him. How do you know?.. I.. I just do.
They were still standing there holding each other close. E-mail Nadine? No, decide for yourself! Julia remembered as a fact what she had said to Bernhard in the afternoon. The memory was a tiny globule of light just beneath the bone of her skull, between her eyebrows. She somehow knew what she had said, but the memory felt like something that had happened to someone else a long time ago...too much happening all at once… accident.. conference…this. When she tried to focus on it, the tiny globule twisted and dodged. It resisted analysis.
"Uncle Bernhard, you truly are the dullest person I've ever met…" her own voice echoed in her head. "I've ever met, but.. but. Access denied. Access denied. Please specify your query.
Bernhard was still holding her. How warm he feels! Access denied. Don't rationalize, Frau Doktor. This is not a term paper, it's life. Take it or leave it. Life…blood… rushing… warmth…breath… feel. Why? When? Something in the way he said it. "You go to work and..". Access denied.
"I find it confusing, too." Bernhard stated.
Then he let go of her, turned around and walked down the dim corridor. Julia followed him. By the time they reached the dining room and sat down with Aunt Irmgard and the children, his eyes were pale and expressionless once more.
___________________________________________

feedback, Uncle Virgil? Schoko? :lol:

hehe, I'm ready to discuss A n C now :)

[Virgil]

Wow, just read the post here, and it is very intense now. I like it. This part gave me goose pimples. That is very good writing, Sleepy. Almost like D.H Lawrence. :)


Uncle Bernhard, you truly are the dullest person I've ever met…" her own voice echoed in her head. "I've ever met, but.. but. Access denied. Access denied. Please specify your query.
Bernhard was still holding her. How warm he feels! Access denied. Don't rationalize, Frau Doktor. This is not a term paper, it's life. Take it or leave it. Life…blood… rushing… warmth…breath… feel. Why? When? Something in the way he said it. "You go to work and..". Access denied.

But I still have to re-read the whole story. I'm not sure this scene was prepared. It seemed to come from no where. Although I suspect it was me reading it poorly.

[SleepyWitch]

:blush: :blush: Hehe, good old Virgil. thanks for taking so much trouble...
i don't think it's your 'fault'... it's my 'cyberpunk' way of writing.. too fastpaced etc.

this scene is on Tuesday when he comes to her room to tell her dinner's ready.
the other key scene about their relationship is on Wendesday, but it's too vague and needs brushing up...
or maybe, in the context of this revised passage, it's no longer too vague now??

[Virgil]

Sleepy I read the second draft.

Quick typo that didn't get corrected. In the second paragraph it should be "two" metres, not "to" metres.

Let me preface this by saying this is just my opinion; chuck it if you don't agree.

Now that I understand the story I can see why I was confused a bit on the first reading. First let me say that the re-write is an improvement. You needed to get Uncle B more fleshed out and in conflict with Julia. But I have structural issues with the way you work the story. I beleive the story really starts on page 8 (?, pages weren't numbered) with the paragraph:

Uncle Bernhard opened the door. He looked puzzled for a split second. "Oh it's you. I didn't expect you back this early. Come in." he said.
(1)The story is about Julia's relationship with the Uncle and to start off with that street scene and the Aunt's background is to project a different story line. I think you also feel compelled to give a lot of information about Julia. The reader will identify with Julia; the story is told from her point of view. I don't mean to say drop the background of the first seven pages. I think you have to take what's important and back fill it in.

(2) I also feel that anything that doesn't have to do with either the carnival or the relationship with the Uncle is fat, and sometimes distracting fat. Either you have to cut the fat or build the "flesh" around it. And here the flesh is the carnival and the uncle.

(3) The natural climax is that powerful scene between Julia and the Uncle on the bed. That is a great scene. Nothing comes close to its power after. But that comes six or seven pages from the end, a full 25% of the story is still to occur. Everything after that seems anti-climatic. Nothing after that seems like a climax. The story peters to its conclusion because you feel compelled to give each day of the week some due.

(4) I thought the ending with the CD was bad. I'm sorry. I hope I'm not hurting your feelings. I don't mean to. I feel harsh in saying that. First, it's corny and overly emotional. Second, it tells you the theme like pinning a tail on a donkey. A reader shouldn't have to be told. Third, it's another appendage, it's not the story.

And so it feels like you have appendages at the beginning and appendage at the end with the core of the story buried.

Let me guess at how I think you envisioned this. I think you envisioned it as a novel rather than a story. This seems more like a novel compressed than a story. The vision of a novel would be Julia's experience, as it went through a complex series of events that makes up her new being. The vision of a story is different. It is a tale, a story for lack of a better word. It focuses on a concentrated event and in no way can it be comprehensive. The art of a story is the art of telling a anectdote, a tale, a story. I think your vision was too comprehensive and it dissipated the story.

But let me conclude. You have the core of an outstanding story. A powerful relationship. I feel you need to reconceptualize it.

[SleepyWitch]

ok.. i can cut out the song if you thinks it's corny. i can live with that :) it was just a silly idea anyway :)

let's see what i can do about the first seven pages. i'm not too happy with them either, but at the moment I don't have the time/inspiration to get rid of them and restructure everything.
Please keep calling it a draft to remind me it needs a lot of reworking!

hehe, don't worry about hurting my feelings. I'm a very lazy witch and i need people to kick my *ss and remind me to work hard. I tend to write stuff up and leave it the way it is and make up excuses so I don't need to change it.


I don't mean to say drop the background of the first seven pages. I think you have to take what's important and back fill it in.
sorry, you lost me there. what does "back fill it in" mean?.
do you mean the opening line of the story should be when he opens the door and the first seven pages are shortened and then maybe fill in in a different place? Like Julia could remember what happened on her way to the town?
like this:
actual chronology:
Julia and her friend drive to this town and there's the accident with the boy - she stays with her relatives whom she hasn't met in ages - there's the carneval and her conference - the Bernhard thing - she goes back home

present draft: same as above

new version: B opens the door - stuff happens in the same chronology as above - somewhere in between Julia has a flashback/remembers what happened on her way there (and Sleepy links it to the main plot in some way, e.g: Julia is still shocked about the accident/her life is full of stress anyway--> so she can't think straight about B.) - Julia goes home and Sleepy cuts the corny donkey's tail????

bah, Virgil you're such a strict teacher :)

hehe, i more or less agree with you, except everybody else tells me the story is great (except Schoko, who liked the first part better than the second).... but then "everybody else" are my friends in real life and they'd shout "Great, we love it!" if I wrote "Fish have gills."

Let me guess at how I think you envisioned this. I think you envisioned it as a novel rather than a story. This seems more like a novel compressed than a story. The vision of a novel would be Julia's experience, as it went through a complex series of events that makes up her new being. The vision of a story is different. It is a tale, a story for lack of a better word. It focuses on a concentrated event and in no way can it be comprehensive. The art of a story is the art of telling a anectdote, a tale, a story. I think your vision was too comprehensive and it dissipated the story.
guilty as charged. I'm too lazy/ don't have the time to write a novel, but I'd like to have great characters anyway :)

[arhem, why do you keep calling it "the scene on the bed", they are not on the bed, but in the doorway :) ]

hum, what about the passage where Juila wakes up in the middle of the night in her room? i hoped that would become clearer in the light of the "scene on the bed", but apparently it hasn't .... grrrrrr, I'll have to change it then and include loats of tacky allusions ;)

~THANKS~

[Virgil]

ok.. i can cut out the song if you thinks it's corny. i can live with that :) it was just a silly idea anyway :)

let's see what i can do about the first seven pages. i'm not too happy with them either, but at the moment I don't have the time/inspiration to get rid of them and restructure everything.
Please keep calling it a draft to remind me it needs a lot of reworking!

Well, don't just cut indiscrimantly. Think it over and plan how you want to work the background info.


hehe, don't worry about hurting my feelings. I'm a very lazy witch and i need people to kick my *ss and remind me to work hard. I tend to write stuff up and leave it the way it is and make up excuses so I don't need to change it.
Frankly I don't think you're lazy at all. You did a lot of work in a short amount of time.



sorry, you lost me there. what does "back fill it in" mean?.
Oh I meant that you have to work the details that you cut in somehow, through exposition, dialogue, flash back. However you feel comfortable. A little of each perhaps to provide variety.


do you mean the opening line of the story should be when he opens the door
I thought that was a good place to start. Perhaps the paragraph before. But the story should sart with them meeting.


and the first seven pages are shortened and then maybe fill in in a different place? Like Julia could remember what happened on her way to the town?
like this:
actual chronology:
Julia and her friend drive to this town and there's the accident with the boy - she stays with her relatives whom she hasn't met in ages - there's the carneval and her conference - the Bernhard thing - she goes back home

present draft: same as above

new version: B opens the door - stuff happens in the same chronology as above - somewhere in between Julia has a flashback/remembers what happened on her way there (and Sleepy links it to the main plot in some way, e.g: Julia is still shocked about the accident/her life is full of stress anyway--> so she can't think straight about B.) - Julia goes home and Sleepy cuts the corny donkey's tail????

There are a number of approaches. Why not have the Uncle pick her up rather than the aunt? This way you get more Julia/Uncle interaction. If you feel that the street scene is important (I guess the blood is a thematic element) does it need to be getting picked up at the beginning of the week? How about driving home with Uncle driving or just in the car on the way back from Carnival? You'll have to rearrange some ot these things. But ask other people's opinion too.


bah, Virgil you're such a strict teacher :)
Oh, I'm not. I would be such a softy as a teacher. :p


[arhem, why do you keep calling it "the scene on the bed", they are not on the bed, but in the doorway :) ]
For some reason I thought they were sitting on the bed. I just checked, they're not. Was it in draft number 1? Sorry. That might make it more intense if they are sitting on the bed.


hum, what about the passage where Juila wakes up in the middle of the night in her room? i hoped that would become clearer in the light of the "scene on the bed", but apparently it hasn't .... grrrrrr, I'll have to change it then and include loats of tacky allusions ;)
Yes, shouldn't that come before? As an anticipation? Or you can transition into the ending from there if you want to leave the story with Julia desiring her Uncle.

I think you will have to ask yourself how do I want to conclude this? Do you want Julia to have an insight into Uncle's person or do you want her to go away desiring him? If it's the second, that could be tricky because it introduces a future possiblity that could leave the reader hanging.


[COLOR="Magenta"]~THANKS~

your welcome. It's been fun reading and thinking about it. :)

[SleepyWitch]

hehe, I've thought of a preliminary solution. Will write it later on today after my courses...
It's not as good as it should be but I think it will make it a little bit better...


hehe, "desiring her Uncle"... that's exactly the point... this scene when she wakes up is AFTER ... *nudge nudge* *NAUGHTY*.... so I will have to change it to make it clear what they've been up to meanwhile :) (He comes to her room with the tea and photos in the evening and when she wakes up it's 3.07 a.m.!!!! ...plus the aunt returns from her adventures at the tennis club...)

[Virgil]

hehe, I've thought of a preliminary solution. Will write it later on today after my courses...
It's not as good as it should be but I think it will make it a little bit better...


hehe, "desiring her Uncle"... that's exactly the point... this scene when she wakes up is AFTER ... *nudge nudge* *NAUGHTY*.... so I will have to change it to make it clear what they've been up to meanwhile :) (He comes to her room with the tea and photos in the evening and when she wakes up it's 3.07 a.m.!!!! ...plus the aunt returns from her adventures at the tennis club...)

Are you saying they slept together? :eek2: I didn't catch that at all. :blush: I must be so naive. ;) But I just went back to read it, and I can't find even a suggestion. You'll have to make that clearer.

[SleepyWitch]

yep, I know... the question is: how do I do that without using tacky clichéd allusions?
hehe, but you did interpret this scene as her desiring him... so that's OK... a little ambiguity is fine with me... i wouldn't mind if the passage could be read as either (desiring him or :blush: 'AFTER')... ideally, I'd like to create some ambiguous tension so that the reader is aware of both possibilities but can't be sure what happened.
as it seems, I've already succeeded in that you don't catch what happened:lol: now all i need to do is make the reader aware that there are two options :)

[SleepyWitch]

second revision is up.
my very preliminary 'solution' to the problem of the two plots is inserted on page 7.
I've also brushed up the 'on the bed' passage (p.20) and numbered the pages :)

[Virgil]

OK, I'm not sure if I'll get a chance until after the week end. I'll try.

[SleepyWitch]

take your time birthday-boy :)
I've just mailed it to a friend who's going to do a PhD in literature :) maybe she can sort out my mess :)

[Virgil]

take your time birthday-boy :)
I've just mailed it to a friend who's going to do a PhD in literature :) maybe she can sort out my mess :)

Actually my afternoon just freed up, so I will look at it. As to PhD's looking at creative writing, urrgh. Once literature is established, lit professors have some contribution. Otherwise they would all be Shakespeares. But frankly most couldn't tell a good creative work from a hole in the wall. :D Unless of course they are creative writers themselves.

[Virgil]

Sleepy, I have a question which I kept forgetting to ask. In the third scene where Aunt Irmgard picks them up, why did you shift point of view. Everywhere before and after that scene you tell the story from Julia's point of view, except for that scene. Not that you can't do that, but shifts of point of views are startling and usually need a rationale. Given that you don't do that anywhere else, it makes that scene stand out, and I'm not sure why.

[Virgil]

Sleepy, I went and made some changes to your story. They are only suggestions. See what you think and let me know what you like and dislike. It was easieer for me to actually type in some changes than describe what i meant.

[SleepyWitch]

i also shift perspectives in "Monday" when the aunt comes back home and findst them sitting in the living room. but yep, you're right, there is no rationale behind it...
maybe i could rewrite a bit of the ending to be told from the aunt's perspective (when they are in the car and make ambiguous remarks and the aunt more or less finds out about J&B)... so the rationale would be that the "whore" finds out that Julia isn't a saint, either and for some reason I'd want that to be told from the aunts perspective ????

[Pendragon]

hi, everyone :wave:

I've finished a really long short story (23 A4 pages, but don't let that deter you :lol: )
Please give me lots of feedback and tell me what you like/ don't like about it.
(also tell me if I've got any prepositions or tenses wrong, especially progressive tense where it should be simple:))

let me know if it's too "soppy" or or not soppy enough :)
is it too fast paced?
do I need to describe the character's feelings more explicitely or are they more or less clear from their facial expressions/dialogue?

if I may say so myself: I'm proud of this story because all of it is fictive and not based on my life or that of anyone I know.
It's also got a beginning, a middle and an end, which is nice :lol:
Now that it's finished I'm not so sure it's all that great, though.

~THANKS FOR YOUR HELP~

EDIT: I've changed one of the key scenes. this is the new versionSaved your story Sleepy, and will read it and get back to you, I promise. Uncle Pen. :)

[SleepyWitch]

thanks Uncle Pen :)
I'll read yours (The Case of the Cautious Casanova) over the holidays along with some other members' stories

[SleepyWitch]

Sleepy, I went and made some changes to your story. They are only suggestions. See what you think and let me know what you like and dislike. It was easieer for me to actually type in some changes than describe what i meant.

thanks :) will look at them tomorrow :)

[Virgil]

i also shift perspectives in "Monday" when the aunt comes back home and findst them sitting in the living room. but yep, you're right, there is no rationale behind it...
maybe i could rewrite a bit of the ending to be told from the aunt's perspective (when they are in the car and make ambiguous remarks and the aunt more or less finds out about J&B)... so the rationale would be that the "whore" finds out that Julia isn't a saint, either and for some reason I'd want that to be told from the aunts perspective ????

Yeah, I noticed after.

[Pendragon]

I found your story interesting, DT. There's the kind of mystery about Julia and "Uncle" Bernard. Do they find a spark of comfort in each other that will ignigte into a romatic fire? Is Julia's "Aunt" Irmgard truly a "whore", and is that why Bernard is so lonely? What did happen to the kid who started the whole ball of wax rolling? Roland has overcome having to take Ritalin and become a nurse, but still can't control impusle when it comes to his love life-- will he settle down now? This could be a chapter in a novel. It opens so many questions you could answer in later chapters. Pen

[SleepyWitch]

hey Pen, thanks for reading my story :)
hehe, you think I should write a novel then? hum, I'm too lazy for that :)

There's the kind of mystery about Julia and "Uncle" Bernard. Do they find a spark of comfort in each other
I'm glad you mention "a spark of comfort" :) you're very perceptive :)

I'll see what my friends in RL think about it...

[Virgil]

Hey Sleepy, what did you think of my suggestions to your story?

[SleepyWitch]

hehe, haven't read them yet... I'm a little busy plus I'm scared of reaing them :) I'll do it later this week...

[Jean-Baptiste]

Hi Sleepy. I took a page from Virgil's book and made some in-text notes on your story. I hope you won't think it's disrespectful of me; I really did like the story. Feel free to kick me in the face if you completely disagree and think I got it all wrong. :smash: :D I took it upon myself to tweak some things (it just seems easier to show you, rather than describe my suggestions) mainly paragraph arrangements, and those mainly for clarity of dialogue. If you disagree I will understand completely. If you had a specific arrangement to carry out a purpose that completely passed me by, I apologize for messing with it. I’ve also shown a lot of attention to the use of italics; I don’t know what you’ll make of my suggestions with regard to them. The only actual story point that I can make is concerned with Roland. I think the character is good, and necessary, but there are a few points that confuse me, for which I’ve made notes.
This is about as nit-picking as I can get (they say I’m a harsh critic, but it’s really just nit-picking :goof: ) so I hope you won’t think I’ve tried to pick your story apart. I really, really like it. It was a pleasure to read. The idea behind it I think is brilliant, and you’ve included all the necessary information, but only the necessary information, which I appreciate above all in reading short stories. Anyway, thanks for sharing it with me.
Well, I tried to upload the document, but it's just over the limit, so I split it in two. I know that's bothersome; sorry.

[SleepyWitch]

wow, Jean, thanks for your comments!
I don't mind your tweaking at all... I'll have to go over it again and do something about the paragraphing. The paragraphs don't mean anything, I just left them that way out of laziness....
thanks for correcting my spellos, there are some that totally escaped my because I've read the story so many times I just don't notice them.
yep the ending is a bit lame... I'll think about it, but it may take some time :)
I might also cut out Julia's second e-mail (the fragment) to Nadine, because a friend of mine said it doesn't contain anything interesting.

about Roland giving her number to the student: Julia and Roland both live in a place a couple of hundred kilometres away. That the student phones her only now is deliberate (it shows how stupid the student is! Lots of people actually do that! Some even phone their professor the night before their oral M.A. -!!!!- exam to changer their topic!)


The idea behind it I think is brilliant
:D what is the idea behind it in your opinion? Hehe, I'm just curious because every reader seems to interpret it differently depending on his/her own background. E.g. my boyfriend and Uncle Pen both thought it's about loneliness. My best friend said Julia cares a lot about her work and career but she's yearning for some 'human warmth' (which is a good description of my best friend herself, in a way!she's a nicer person than Julia, though)
Uncle Virgil was shocked at first....

hehe, now I'll read Virgil's changes and then I'll comment on your stories :)

[SleepyWitch]

heehee, our Virgil, hum, please don't be cross, but I'm not sure I like your changes too much....
this isn't too bad

“You read about the industrial revolution?” she asked.
“Yes,” he said, looking down at his book.
“Those boys from yesterday seem like such products of industrialism.
“Why do you say that?”
Well, they come from that industrial neighbourhood.”
“Of course,” he said. Julia felt that he had an understanding ear. So she continued.
“They seem like characters from a Naturalistic novel.”
“Oh, like something from Zola?”
Julia was surprised. “You have read Zola?”
“Oh Yes.” He spoke so politely.
“Well, the script of life is badly written for most.
“Oh, don’t wallow in self pity, please.” He smiled.
“No, really sometimes I feel that life is patched together by a drunken fool, whose sense of plot is..uh..is that of a parrot.”
Uncle Berhard turned his dark eyes toward her, puzzled. She giggled.
“I once saw a parrot peel cherries, spit out the flesh, and then line up the seeds like stones in a neat row.”
“Oh,” Uncle responded. She was not sure if he understood. No matter.

but some of the other passages you've added are a bit too errrr *gargle, arrrgh looking for a word that will not offend you*.. romantic/cheesy/soppy/over-emotional err... I don't know...
you see, I want her attraction to him to be a bit more irrational and out of the blue... if she starts locking eyes with him that early on, it won't be out-of-the-blue...
also, I made his eyes 'amber' rather than brown on purpose. I know the right word would be brown. Plus, 'amber' eyes are very rare. But that's what's makes him special. I don't want him to have clichéd warm, dark brown, soft eyes but eyes that look weird most of the time, but can do funny things and can suddenly change to look soft.
If he had dark brown eyes, that would be hard to achieve because many people associate "warmth" and "depth of feeling" etc with brown eyes by default. So he couldn't help looking trustworthy and caring even if that's not what he felt like/wanted people to think.

She placed her hand to his face and kissed him.
not a bad idea... that would make it easier for readers to understand the "waking-up"-scene... I'm just not sure I want any explicit reference to kissing in there... But if that's the only way I can make things clear, I will do it :)
or would it be enough of a hint if she just touched his face or something?

thanks so much for help and all the time and work you put into this. I hope you won't be cross because I'm stubborn when it comes to some of the changes you've suggested.

[Virgil]

heehee, our Virgil, hum, please don't be cross, but I'm not sure I like your changes too much....
this isn't too bad

but some of the other passages you've added are a bit too errrr *gargle, arrrgh looking for a word that will not offend you*.. romantic/cheesy/soppy/over-emotional err... I don't know...


Oh you're not offending me.:lol: I didn't expect to be original with someone else's story. I was just trying to show you needed to bring out the Bernhart character more (he is the critical part of the story and he's delegated to third string almost), eliminate the fat (I still don't understand why Roland and the incident with the kid who gets attacked are in the story), and come to a clearer conclusion. I know you want to be subtle, but you are being so subtle that i don't understand the point. Perhaps it's just me. IMO, a writer is not there to tease and obscure. The implications of a story may be complex and deep and unstated; but a story line should be smooth, clear, and precise. I'll be curious to see your next revision. :)

[Jean-Baptiste]

Well, gee, I'll take a stab at interpretation, if only to show what a simple dolt I am. I see a couple of things going on in this story. I took the story to be about how Julia's life has, up to this point, been on hold, placed in the background in favor of a focus on academia. She seems socially and emotionally stilted as a result, and realizes (without expressed realization) that there's something missing only when it is presented to her in a mediocre form, to which she instantly succumbs. She is certainly not emotionally dead, as shown by her concern for the boy in the beginning, but emotion has taken on a secondary significance for her, which makes her somewhat harsh and calculating (as you said above, your friend is nicer than Julia.) She is innately lacking any desire for personal (romantic/emotional) attachment, as shown in her choice of friends, viz. the homosexual Roland, and her choice of liaison with an absolutely off-limits man. As for regarding academia as the main perpetrator in this outcome, I couldn't say that it's necessarily about the effect of a prolonged acquaintance with academia, but more about anything that could have this effect of relegating one's personal life to a secondary importance, and the insistence that life will reassert itself eventually. Also, it seems that Julia lives in a constantly updating mind. She doesn't seem to have the capacity to make solid plans (not that there's anything in the story that makes this explicit, just the feeling I get) nor is she able or willing to dwell on the immediate past (as implicit in the fact that she's working continually in stages on marking papers, and throughout the story saving documents and moving on to something else.)

That's what I see. And I think it's brilliantly portrayed. If I got it all wrong, I'm sorry. :goof:

Yes, students can be quite ridiculous--changing their minds. I understood the point about the student, but I don't understand how Roland gave the student Julia's number so recently. If he had given it away before they left home, wouldn't the student have called sooner? I don't know; maybe that is something a student would do: frantically get the professor's number too late anyway, and then wait for a day to call. :lol:
I did the paragraph thing mostly for my own reading; I figured you just hadn't gotten around to it yet, as some were done and some weren't.

[SleepyWitch]

Well, gee, I'll take a stab at interpretation, if only to show what a simple dolt I am. I see a couple of things going on in this story. I took the story to be about how Julia's life has, up to this point, been on hold, placed in the background in favor of a focus on academia. She seems socially and emotionally stilted as a result, and realizes (without expressed realization) that there's something missing only when it is presented to her in a mediocre form, to which she instantly succumbs. She is certainly not emotionally dead, as shown by her concern for the boy in the beginning, but emotion has taken on a secondary significance for her, which makes her somewhat harsh and calculating (as you said above, your friend is nicer than Julia.) She is innately lacking any desire for personal (romantic/emotional) attachment, as shown in her choice of friends, viz. the homosexual Roland, and her choice of liaison with an absolutely off-limits man. As for regarding academia as the main perpetrator in this outcome, I couldn't say that it's necessarily about the effect of a prolonged acquaintance with academia, but more about anything that could have this effect of relegating one's personal life to a secondary importance, and the insistence that life will reassert itself eventually. Also, it seems that Julia lives in a constantly updating mind. She doesn't seem to have the capacity to make solid plans (not that there's anything in the story that makes this explicit, just the feeling I get) nor is she able or willing to dwell on the immediate past (as implicit in the fact that she's working continually in stages on marking papers, and throughout the story saving documents and moving on to something else.)

I like your interpretation a lot! except for the passage I've highlighted. The reason why she doesn't mark all the papers in one go is because that conference keeps her busy. Another person would maybe not mark the papers at all at this stage and do it the following week (which would cause some inconvenience for her students because they'd have to wait for their marks longer).
but you are right that she sort of drifts into the Bernhard thing and that's were the irony is: she's very organized when it comes to her work and certainly knows how to deal with silly students, but when it comes to her personal life, it's a different story


and come to a clearer conclusion
I will work on that :) *one of these days* (when Sleepy says that, it usually means sometime between now and the day I die :) )

[SleepyWitch]

I still don't understand why Roland and the incident with the kid who gets attacked are in the story
yep, you're right: the transition from the first to the second part is veeeeery clumsy.
but here's why I still want the incident with the boy to be in there:

Don't wallow in self-pity. She told herself, but the thought that she had been able to help the boy had a coppery tinge, it could not make up for the fact that she lived in a world where little kids drank themselves senseless and tried to kill each other. But what am I supposed to do about it?
Of course, she had wanted to take a different route to her aunt's home in the first place, but Roland had taken a wrong turn.
Julia squared her shoulders defiantly. She had never really understood why Naturalist writers were so fascinated by the scum they called 'real' people, why they relished rolling in the grime and filth like swine roll in the mud. What could that possibly teach us about ourselves? How did elevating all that blood and soot onto the plane of literature contribute to making those things go away? How did it relate to humanity? No, her job was to stick to what she was best at, to cling on to the good, the true and the beautiful. There needed to be something the antisocials could look up to,....
I don't know if it comes across very clearly, but as I see it Julia is a bit frustrated about the world around her. She doesn't like violence, ugly things etc. But the incident with the boy doesn't turn her into a socialist heroine who sets out to save the world and do something to help people like the boy.
Rather, her frustration makes her withdraw and hate the world as it is, because she can't do anything about it.
She decides she needs to cling on to the beautiful things in life...
And what is her brilliant solution: she resorts to random middle class adultery.
---> Julia, you're full of sh**

[Jean-Baptiste]

well, I'm glad I wasn't entirely off base. Yes, I can understand your explanation for the papers; notice I left a way out for myself on that bit about plans.

I agree somewhat with Virgil on the beginning situation. I think it is definitely a necessary part of the story, but as you say, the transition is sketchy. I think you should be able to bring out its significance a bit more, without stopping the story for explanations. Perhaps a sentence or two strewn in later would do the trick.

[Virgil]

yep, you're right: the transition from the first to the second part is veeeeery clumsy.
but here's why I still want the incident with the boy to be in there:


OK, it can work, but I think it does need to be better integrated.



I don't know if it comes across very clearly, but as I see it Julia is a bit frustrated about the world around her. She doesn't like violence, ugly things etc. But the incident with the boy doesn't turn her into a socialist heroine who sets out to save the world and do something to help people like the boy.
Rather, her frustration makes her withdraw and hate the world as it is, because she can't do anything about it.
She decides she needs to cling on to the beautiful things in life...
And what is her brilliant solution: she resorts to random middle class adultery.
---> Julia, you're full of sh**
Her frustration is there. Although it could be sharper. What may be missing is the regret or whatever she feels after. Perhaps our differences are because of our writing styles. You seem to prefer subtlety and I prefer clarity. I guess the question you should ask yourself is, when is it too subtle?


random middle class adultery.
:lol: Are you implying that the upper and lower classes don't have random adultery?

[Matsiah]

Are you and I two pieces of a mind split asunder? Through all of your thunder I sat, only to hear similar sounds between storms. All the while, wearing ear plugs. To you I cast hypothetical hugs. - But seriously, without fully reading your most recent stories, I found similarities to already written writing of my own - that have never been posted - when only observing the first paragraph. I'll read this lengthy story through soon, and cast back info from Matt's black...Processor.

[SleepyWitch]

hi Mats,
thanks for your comment :)
why don't you post your stories?

[SleepyWitch]

:lol: Are you implying that the upper and lower classes don't have random adultery?

nope I'm not implying that, but I think the lower classes make less fuss about it.. for them it's not such a big issue or rather they just do it without blowing it up into a big tragedy.... :)

[Matsiah]

slightly timid when posting works I want to publish. I have an interest in freelance but I'm really wanting to write a novel. Therefore, every 'story' I write is potential publication - least in my mind. Listings are easy, it's sticking to writing that's hard; which is odd, when hearing so many struggles of pursuing publication. Going off what I've read, the trick is a good query letter and a elegant manuscript. Then, simply have a meaningful and proper story. Anyway, I can't post one that you reminded me of, because it is a novel and is slightly scattered around - between computer and paper. Basically with that, I used a character by the name of Roland, as a base character. It's a good name. Also, the recently posted story about the lake, was vary similar in various aspects. I could post that... 'Tis not concluded; however, lively at genesis. I'm still considering a new title but it is currently: (A) Treacherous Lake. I'll post it now.

[Matsiah]

I'm struggling to post because: I'm roughly 2000 words above average. I would revise, but, 2000 words? I'm curious, must those attachments be in MS Word format?

[Logos]

Matsiah, its easy if you want to post a story, just break it up into (two or more) sections (depending on how long it is) and post it in multiple posts to the same topic.

[Jay]

Unless you're talking about the short story competition, in which case 2000 words is the nonnegotiable limit ;)

And yes, MS Word format. If you're using OpenOffice, just save it as .doc, not sure about other applications though. (this part applies for short story competition as well)

[Virgil]

Poor Sleepywitch is having her thread hijacked.

[SleepyWitch]

yeah, all those nasty moderators coming here to post off-topic msgs :)
but at least that way the thread stays active :)

[zanna]

Hey sleepy!
I really liked your story. Good stuff. Very sophisticated, and nitty-gritty reality. All I can write is mush, currently. :D Roland seems like a half-character to me, like I just met him, but don't really know him yet. You've said over and over that it's only part of the whole story, so I'll let ya off the hook. :) If you ever get the rest of the story out, let us read it, so we can get to know the other characters better. :) And, I like the thoughts that Julia "thinks" that we can "hear." I'm a fan of using that every once in a while, too. Best of luck with your work. :)

[SleepyWitch]

Hey sleepy!
I really liked your story. Good stuff. Very sophisticated, and nitty-gritty reality. All I can write is mush, currently. :D Roland seems like a half-character to me, like I just met him, but don't really know him yet. You've said over and over that it's only part of the whole story, so I'll let ya off the hook. :) If you ever get the rest of the story out, let us read it, so we can get to know the other characters better. :) And, I like the thoughts that Julia "thinks" that we can "hear." I'm a fan of using that every once in a while, too. Best of luck with your work. :)

thanks :)
er, actually that is the whole story... Uncle Pen suggested I should make it the first chapter of a novel, but actually i can't see that happening.
the Roland bit is the first part of this story and the Uncle Bernhard thing is the second part, if that's what you mean?

[Captain Pike]

One thing, right off the bat that i had to reread, and am still not clear. The first two lines:
"Watch out!" Roland stepped on the brake and brought the car to a skidding halt.
The two kids ran in front of the car and stopped two metres ahead of them.

Does this mean that two kids ran out in front of a car after it stopped?
Who was the "them"?

Reading with interest however...
-- Phil

[SleepyWitch]

yep it means the kids jump on to the road in front of the car like kids sometimes do to annoy people ("them" is Julia and Roland, in the car)

[Lil Stras 007]

How do you attach a word document to your posts?

[Virgil]

Here Sleepy. I take it this is what your story picks up on. Thought you and whoever reads the story might be interested. The article has pictures on the web site. Costumes are very elaborate and well done.


German Carnival Pokes Fun at Hitler, Bush and the Mullahs
Hitler, Bush and the Mullahs have one thing in common: they're represented as effigies at the Düsseldorf carnival. On Rose Monday, costumed revelers cheered on the parade which pokes fun at everyone and everything.

Once a year, the Germans show off their humorous side: dressed up with wigs, masks and costumes, they flock to their local carnival parade to get madly drunk and sing along to carnival chansons à la "I need more beer." Those who want the real deal go to the Rhineland where cities like Cologne or Düsseldorf have become carnival mecca.

While Cologne is undoubtedly the number one in the fun league when it comes to numbers -- up to 1 million revelers were expected for the Rose Monday parade -- the Düsseldorf carnival has earned much admiration for its politically incorrect spirit. This year's parade is themed "Düsseldorf's foolish illusions."

Effigies of Hitler relieving himself or George Bush smelling the armpit of Iranian leader Ahmadinejad -- the float is dubbed "Achsel (the German word for 'armpit') of evil" -- demonstrate Düsseldorf's high art of poking fun.

German politicians and celebrities are also paraded by the German jesters. Chancellor Merkel makes an appearance in a bathing suit and as a weasel licking the head of her vice chanceller Müntefering on two floats at Cologne carnival. Cyclist Jan Ullrich -- under suspicion of doping -- is another countryman who had been remodeled as an effigy.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,467230,00.html

[SleepyWitch]

hey old Virgil, thanks for the link. will read it later.
i've written a better ending for the story and will post it tomorrow! what a coincidence.

[SleepyWitch]

hey Uncle Virgil, Jean and all my other suporters :) the new ending is up :)
how do you like it?
is it any better now?

[SleepyWitch]

Here Sleepy. I take it this is what your story picks up on. Thought you and whoever reads the story might be interested. The article has pictures on the web site. Costumes are very elaborate and well done.



http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,467230,00.html

hehe, after reading this article, do you think my description is accurate?
is Spiegel International edition available in print over there? (the German edition is a renowned weekly newspaper, which I read regularly).
i saw it at a newsagent's the other day and was curious about it coz i didn't know there is an English edition.
Do you think this article was written by a native speaker of English? sounds very native to me. maybe I'll by a copy of the print edition to study the language and find out who writes their articles.

[Virgil]

I have never heard of Spiegel International before. The article headline came across a web site that collates interesting news items of the day and I saw the headline and rembembered your story.

Speaking of your story, I'll down load and try to read it tonight if I get the chance.

[Jean-Baptiste]

hey Uncle Virgil, Jean and all my other suporters :) the new ending is up :)
how do you like it?
is it any better now?

That's exciting, Sleepy! You'll have to give me a few days, but I'll read it as soon as I get some time to breath.

[SleepyWitch]

thanks Jean and Uncle Vergilius

here's some Berlin donuts for you (traditional German Carnival specialty. called Berliner in the North and Krapfen down here)
(can i resize images in php code? I'll try it, coz it's a bit large. nope it's not working. i suppose that's why it's called php and not html)
http://www.landvogt-back.de/images/NeueKrapfen.JPG

[Virgil]

Hold the donuts. I didn't get a chance to read it last night. I will though. I'm really curious how you end it.

Donuts look delicious though. I wonder if my fatty liver can handle them. ;)

[Virgil]

OK I read it this morning. Much improved. :thumbs_up Yes I really like it now Sleepy. I'm not much on endings that explains it all, but you handled it very well, and now I see why you have that intro with the boy and roland. The story is now organically whole, and that is always a first priority. One qualm I still have is that Uncle Bernhardt's attraction to her still comes across as unprepared and sudden. I don't know if you have enough on what makes him tick. I know he's awkward and unused to making a pass at a lady, but why does he do it? What makes him go over that line. It seems to be a missing answer.

But I really do love the story now. It makes me want to read more of characters. Great work. You should try to get it published.

OK, now I'll take a donut. ;)

[SleepyWitch]

hey Uncle Virgil, thanks for your comment :) glad you like it better now :) :) :).
well, the Bernhard thing is intended to be irrational etc, i'll stick to that... yeah.. well let's see.. whatever :) i guess the idea is that Julia just feels a bit disconnected from other people and this is her way of seeking 'human warmth' and uncle gets cheated on by his evil w**** of a wife and blabla. :)
enjoy your donut :)

[SleepyWitch]

what do you make of Julia's reflections at the end? do you share her view or is she too bitter? does it make her more or less likeable? do they still tie in with what we know about her character?
what about the general tone of the ending? is it a good/bad/open ending?

(hehe, do I sound like a Lit teacher?)


do you really, really, really think i should publish it? i think I'll print it out and have it bound at the copyshop to circulate it among my friends for a start. have you ever done that? it's embarrassing :blush:

[Virgil]

what do you make of Julia's reflections at the end?
I thought they were appropriate. Like I said, I don't usually like endings that are explained, but I felt comfortable here now.


do you share her view or is she too bitter?
I didn't feel she was bitter. Realistic is the word. Not an idealist any longer perhaps, but life does that. That's what makes it a story.


does it make her more or less likeable?
If I didn't like her by then, it would be too late. I liked her voice as it went through the story. One really bonded with her.


do they still tie in with what we know about her character?
I think so.

what about the general tone of the ending? is it a good/bad/open ending?
I think it closes the story. I don't think it you left anything open.


(hehe, do I sound like a Lit teacher?)
Yes, but you should be thinking more like a writer, not a teacher. ;)


do you really, really, really think i should publish it? i think I'll print it out and have it bound at the copyshop to circulate it among my friends for a start. have you ever done that? it's embarrassing :blush:
I've never published a story. Give it a try, what's the harm. There are some diction places I might change. I really didn't write them down, but I'll read it once more and note those little things. Also, I still find the way you layout dialogue as awkward. There are standard ways to do that.

[SleepyWitch]

Also, I still find the way you layout dialogue as awkward. There are standard ways to do that.
yep, I know. i've just been to lazy to space out the dialogue so far. that's the least of my worries :) I'll do it one of these days. as long as the dialogue doesn't sound unnatural, I'm happy :)

[Countess]

Well, here are my thoughts:

Praise:

I like how you tied the "comingling of lives" in the opening with the "delimma of stratification" at the end.

"Their faces were illuminated eerily in the orange light from the street lamps."
For reasons completely obvious to anyone who has opened Bastat, I adore this sentence. Very ghoulish.(-:

"She had on those tights...the ones that make your legs look like big, fat weiner sausages!" - LMAO! I've thought the exact same thing, except I compared them to dinosaur legs.

I love Roland. He and Jules would get along wonderfully well.

I really identify with Julia - she is a compelling character, an introverted philosopher with a passion for literature. If she were real, I would befriend her in a heart-beat.

I liked the irony of making "The whore" "an angel".

I loved the ending most of all, though - a sort of exploration of Maslowe's heirarchy of needs. That's the fundamental problem: people stuck on Rung 1 survive. They don't actually live; every moment is consumed with acquiring food/resources and protection, like the neanderthals. When they have surrendered to the inevitability of death, when they ask themselves "why do I fight so hard so I can take my next breath to fight so hard?" they die - some by addictions, some by gangs, some by suicide.

People who have resources can afford to live, to develop emotional connections and community, even to self-actualize. Strangely enough, however, many people don't, especially here in America. Most of the rich remain on Rung 1, obsessed with the acquisition of wealth and materialism, the luxury of greed. There is no "self" beneath the "mask", so the mask is the self. They really *are* that superficial.

Then there are weirdos like me stuck on Rung 1 because their aim is self-actualization, and pragmatism is sacrificed at the expense of authenticity and consistency with the self and with God.

And here's a rhetorical question: instead of the aristocratic Julia saving the poverty-stricken boy, wouldn't it have been even more amazing if the reverse had actually happened?

Suggestions:

I like the philosophical musings on page 8 but the shift from being inside Julia's mind to narrative style is awkward. Add a "she mused to herself" or something to keep the flow in synch. The paragraph I'm refering to states: "It was the kind of weather..."

The dialogue needs to be clearly separated so the reader knows which character is speaking.

There may be "too many Aunts with penchants for purple-feathered hats" in the beginning but then my reading preference appears to be grossly different than current standards. Roland entertained me but it wasn't until Julia developed some depth that I became engrossed, and that occured when you introduced Bernhard - those two characters evolved one another, much like Ana and Jules.

You can circumvent this problem - if you deem it one - by introducing some insight in the first scene, with the injured boy. Don't make it only a matter of physical death, but a spiritual one as well. Julia has the capacity to think both ways at the same time - to attend to the boy's physical needs while simultaneously processing the thought that here lies a human being - only a boy, small and frail - who might die without anyone ever really knowing or caring.

Give her depth there and it will string you over until you introduce Bernhard.

PS: Do you have a thing for old guys? (-:

[SleepyWitch]

wow, thanks for your feedback. glad you liked the story :) :)



You can circumvent this problem - if you deem it one - by introducing some insight in the first scene, with the injured boy. Don't make it only a matter of physical death, but a spiritual one as well. Julia has the capacity to think both ways at the same time - to attend to the boy's physical needs while simultaneously processing the thought that here lies a human being - only a boy, small and frail - who might die without anyone ever really knowing or caring.

Give her depth there and it will string you over until you introduce Bernhard.

that's a very good idea :) I'll keep it at the back of my mind and wait till i can come up with something.



PS: Do you have a thing for old guys? (-:
:D :D :D nothing wrong with old guys :)
but i swear Bernhard isn't based on any one from RL, he's entirely fictional (his character, his appearance, his way of life) and so is Julia... --> that's why I'm kinda proud of this story even though it's far from perfect

[Countess]

PS: I've PMed you privately Sleepywitch. Check it. (-:

[kathycf]

Sleepy, I think you are going to have to change your signature to take out the reference to "stupid" about your story. It is a fine story, but I did have a few issues with it.

1.) Why is the aunt referred to as a "whore"? I get that she and the protagonist are distantly related, and that obviously there is bad blood between the aunt and Julia' s mother. It just seems odd that Julia seems to buy into that (having thoughts about her aunt running off to speak to somebody from her tennis club during the Carnival.), and yet by her own admission Julia hasn't seen her aunt since she was five. It struck me as odd. Surely momentarily abandoning one's husband and guest by taking off and running over to speak to a man doesn't make one a whore?

There is an allusion to the aunt being out late one night, but again, that seems pretty thin to slap such a pejorative term on someone.

2.) You say there is an implication that there was sexual intimacy shared between Bernhard and Julia. It is extremely subtle, as I would not have recognized it as such if I had not previously read through this thread. The subtlety is not the problem, I just find it hard to understand the motivation for such an act. In order for me to feel sympathy towards Bernhard, I am going to need some understanding of why a married father of two is going to sleep with (to use a more old fashioned term "commit adultery with") a guest under his and his wife's roof. In order for me to empathize with Julia I am going to have to understand how she can justify sleeping with her aunt's husband after somewhat judging her aunt as a "whore".

This last bit is much more pickyune of me. I am assuming that Roland and Julia are of the same age...and Julia is 30 and Roland is mentioned twice as taking Ritalin (http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/Ritalin.html), which is classified as an amphetamine. Such a drug is prescribed to hyperactive children. In adults Ritalin acts as a stimulant. It calms hyperactivity in the young because of their somewhat different body chemistry opposed to adults.



I don't know why I bring it up, it is just something that seemed odd to me. All in all I must say I enjoyed your story. This is why I suggest to you taking out the "stupid" part in your sig, because I think this is a work to be proud of. :thumbs_up

[optimisticnad]

Hi sleepy (how i feel!) witch

I think this has potential. Honestly. You've made a few small grammar and syntax errors and i think it needs redrafting. I like the way you've included different forms of modern communication, emails, PMs etc.

I'm afraid I cant think of anything specific to say, it did make me laugh sometimes. But overall, there was something missing. I think maybe you need to work on your characters a little, Julia? Make them...stronger?

Re-draft it. Cut back and tone it a little and it;ll be better.

night.

[SleepyWitch]

Sleepy, I think you are going to have to change your signature to take out the reference to "stupid" about your story. It is a fine story, but I did have a few issues with it.

1.) Why is the aunt referred to as a "whore"? I get that she and the protagonist are distantly related, and that obviously there is bad blood between the aunt and Julia' s mother. It just seems odd that Julia seems to buy into that (having thoughts about her aunt running off to speak to somebody from her tennis club during the Carnival.), and yet by her own admission Julia hasn't seen her aunt since she was five. It struck me as odd. Surely momentarily abandoning one's husband and guest by taking off and running over to speak to a man doesn't make one a whore?

There is an allusion to the aunt being out late one night, but again, that seems pretty thin to slap such a pejorative term on someone.
...........

This last bit is much more pickyune of me. I am assuming that Roland and Julia are of the same age...and Julia is 30 and Roland is mentioned twice as taking Ritalin (http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/Ritalin.html), which is classified as an amphetamine. Such a drug is prescribed to hyperactive children. In adults Ritalin acts as a stimulant. It calms hyperactivity in the young because of their somewhat different body chemistry opposed to adults.



I don't know why I bring it up, it is just something that seemed odd to me. All in all I must say I enjoyed your story. This is why I suggest to you taking out the "stupid" part in your sig, because I think this is a work to be proud of. :thumbs_up

thanks for the info about Ritalin.... i had a hyperactive friend once who had to take medicine... i assumed it was Ritalin.. didn't know it's something different for adults.


2.) You say there is an implication that there was sexual intimacy shared between Bernhard and Julia. It is extremely subtle, as I would not have recognized it as such if I had not previously read through this thread. The subtlety is not the problem, I just find it hard to understand the motivation for such an act. In order for me to feel sympathy towards Bernhard, I am going to need some understanding of why a married father of two is going to sleep with (to use a more old fashioned term "commit adultery with") a guest under his and his wife's roof. In order for me to empathize with Julia I am going to have to understand how she can justify sleeping with her aunt's husband after somewhat judging her aunt as a "whore".
that's exactly where the irony is. Julia exempts herself from the judgment she passes on her aunt. it's ironic that she rants on about "the good, the true and the beautiful" and the goes 'whoring' around just like anybody else....

thanks for your feedback :)

[MAXIM]

Dear Sleepy-eyed witch:alien:

I have read your story first-to-last and my observations are as under:
Some questions are left hanging in a reader’s mind like:
1. The relationship between Julia and her mother depicted during their phone talk. ("Yes, the hotel is great...".. ; "The 'whore'? She lives here? I thought she lives in Leverkusen.... No, why would I want to meet her?....: "I am your mother! That's what consanguineous means" her mother's voice shrieked out of the phone…..; "You stick your nose in your American textbooks so much, you have forgotten what it means to be human. Don't you dare give me any of your cheek, Frau Doktor!" the voice screamed on.) It seems that Julia lied to her mother that she is staying in hotel instead with her aunt irmgard. Mother-daughter relationship- good or bad or casual is not clearly explained and a reader feels in dark. More so, because Julia has a strong character, someone who is disciplined, conscientious, successful and wanting to improve the world. Later you also write that whether Uncle Berhard heard about the tennis guy, which means on one hand Julia is telling her mother she did not stay with her aunt and also telling her mom that her aunt has some connection with a tennis chap
2. The relationship between Julia and Uncle Berhard: Attraction arose between them- a dull person and a pretty woman of 30, suddenly indicating that dull person is not after all completely dull. But I am not sure whether, anything happened between them just prior to this para as you have a suggestive sentence ‘but she was still glowing with warmth’ (Julia woke up. The duvet had slid off the bed and was lying on the floor between the foot of the bed and the window, but she was still glowing with warmth. There was a grating noise and a stark white light outside the window. She sat up, peered out of the window and gathered up the duvet.). What Julia felt exactly about her uncle, you could have conveyed or was it just a passing fancy.
The above two points will help in bringing clarity in the storyline whose ending page is very good.

Apart from these two hanging points, I liked reading the story and learnt something about writing. I enjoyed your description of scenes and I could feel the atmosphere. The character of Julia and her following thoughts remain with me.

It's not the lack of 'social equality' or the problems of 'the underprivileged' that I care about. Yes, these were among the key social issues of our age, but they were just the tip of the iceberg and could only be tackled after its underwater bulk was made visible and destroyed. What was really wrong with the world was that people like those who lived in these tower blocks had nothing to do with people like her.
People lived like little atoms drifting around in space and their lives never touched and if they did, they bounced of each other, failing to form molecules.
( In chemistry we read about the atoms bonding (covalent bonds) to form molecules)

The teenager sat half a metre across from her. They occupied the same slice of space and time, but they might have been members of two different species. And there was nothing she could do about it. For the moment.

[SleepyWitch]

hey Maxim thanks for your feedback :)
yep, Julia's relationship with her mum isn't great in all respects and she has lied to her mother because she knows here mother wouldn't approve of her staying with Irmgard. but Julia was curious to see her relatives again...

hm... i think i don't want to pigeonhole Julia's attraction to Bernhard. maybe it is just a fleeting infatuation - maybe it's more - maybe it's something in between....
it's definitely not 'true love' as in "let's marry and spend the rest of our lives together" but on the other hand it's a bit more than a random one-night-stand

[sciencefan]

I saw your signature in the Member of the Week thread, so out of curiousity,
I chased down your story.
Please forgive me because I am not a voracious reader.
I read the first 3 pages and the last 3 pages,
and I learned enough about you to say this:
You are a talented writer.
Some people have the talent, and some do not.
You do.

P.S. Could you possibly spend a little more time describing the children at the beginning.
You rifled through them a little too quickly for my ability to keep up.
Too many pronouns, I think.
I thought the quick insight on the woman's part about their clothing was superb.

I liked your conclusions, and I loved the last line.

Please forgive me for not reading the whole thing.
I wish you good success in the future.

[SleepyWitch]

thanks sciencefan :)
the children are just minor characters, they're not really important.

[sciencefan]

thanks sciencefan :)
the children are just minor characters, they're not really important.
I suspected that might be the case.

[Mia Marinate]

Hi Virg, fellow scribbler,
My humble advice is to forego as much of the adverbia as you can. Trust your reader to be engaged by that initial action--good, fast stuff that slows down with all the hows of it. Whenever I read reviews of praise, they always notice the spareness of the writing, not the verbiage. Ain't it so? Go Get 'EM!
Cheers, Mia

[RoCKiTcZa]

i wasn't able to read it through and through, i only took a brief browse through it. I think it's nice. I suggest when you write dialogues, though, set aside only one paragraph for one speaker. That will make it easier to read and more professional to look at.;) Keep writing! Practice makes perfect. I'm an amateur writer, too, and I write very often. Although some of my works turn out rubbish, I just keep going.

[SleepyWitch]

i wasn't able to read it through and through, i only took a brief browse through it. I think it's nice. I suggest when you write dialogues, though, set aside only one paragraph for one speaker. That will make it easier to read and more professional to look at.;) Keep writing! Practice makes perfect. I'm an amateur writer, too, and I write very often. Although some of my works turn out rubbish, I just keep going.
thanks, Rock. :)
about the paragraphs: yep I've been meaning to edit them for ages, just haven't got around to it yet.

[mike thomas]

sleepy witches story:

hello sleeping wytche

I'll read yours if you read mine

http://www.geocities.com/[email protected]/intro.htm

regards