Antony and Cleopatra anyone? [Archive] - Literature Network Forums

SleepyWitch

11-28-2006, 12:28 PM

blach, Henry VI, IV or whatever Henry... yikes, Scher, you'll have to flog me through these :) well, I'll have to read them sooner or later, so why not sooner :)
this Shakes discussion group is a great idea :)

Virgil and Schoko, if you fancy a private read of Antony and Cleopatra, I could get started on it next week or whatever suits you best and then we can discuss it in here.
Schokokeks, the tickets were 40 pounds each and the fligth 134 Euros, plus we'll be staying at a youth hostel for 2 nights because there's no flight back on the same day :( (we= boyfriend and me)
so it's something like 250 Euros each, not including the money we'll have to spend on food and tube tickets.

I know I'm crazy :) But it stars my fave actor Patrick Stewart and when I was a kid I used to dream of seeing him act live. At that time it seemed about as realistic as meeting Santa Clause but meanwhile I've watched Stewart twice and I'm not going to sit here pinching my pennies and regretting not having gone to watch him again :)

Virgil

11-28-2006, 12:34 PM

Oh you're Patrick Stewart obsession.:lol: Is he Antony, I would guess? I think he would fit the role well.

SleepyWitch

11-28-2006, 12:41 PM

Oh you're Patrick Stewart obsession.:lol: Is he Antony, I would guess? I think he would fit the role well.

yep he is :) the funny thing is, he also played Enobarbus before in another RSC production. I've got it on video tape.
erhem, it's a great play, that's why I want to see it :)

Petrarch's Love

11-28-2006, 12:46 PM

Sleepy--I'm always happy to talk about A&C. I did annotations for it about a year ago and developed a fondness for it then. Have fun seeing Patrick Stewart. I'm green with envy! :p

Schokokeks

11-29-2006, 08:59 AM

I know I'm crazy :)
Nej, this is passion !! :D
Never mind the money, you're not wasting it on exclusive make-up or diamond pants or whatever, but it's ed-u-ca-tion :p, and you'll surely enjoy yourself on your trip. God, I'm so envious ! ;)
Oh, I didn't know Patrick Steward ever did anything beside Star Trek Next Generation :blush:. Did I mention education before :p?

I'm ready for Antony and Cleopatra as soon as you are :nod:.

Virgil

11-29-2006, 09:09 AM

I'll start this weekend. I hope we can get a good discussion. :)

Virgil

11-29-2006, 09:11 AM

Oh, I didn't know Patrick Steward ever did anything beside Star Trek Next Generation :blush:. Did I mention education before :p?

Oh he's quite an accomplished Shakespearen actor. He stared in the movie version of Twelfth Night and he played Claudius in the BBC version of Hamlet many years ago.

Virgil

11-29-2006, 09:20 AM

Patrick Stewart as Enobaraus:

http://www.rsc.org.uk/picturesandexhibitions/images/from_xml/women/O_2457_A19a_c.jpg

As Claudius w/ Derek Jacobi as Hamlet:

http://arlenestage.homestead.com/files/SDJ_Hamlet___with_Patrick_Stewart.jpg

Ooops, That was Ben Kingsly that played in the Twelfth Night movie. Sorry. One bald guy looks just like another. :lol: :lol:

Schokokeks

11-29-2006, 09:34 AM

Thanks for the pictures, Virgil, you just did my horizon-broadening for today ;).
Looking forward to discussing Antony and Cleopatra with you :nod:.

SleepyWitch

11-29-2006, 09:42 AM

cool :) I'll get started on it on Sunday then :) hehe, now I'll have to come up with something intelligent to say about it, seeing as I made you read it :)

Petrarch's Love, you did annotations for A&C? Are you one of those people who go "wait, this guy shouldn't enter from the left, he should be on the right because it changes the meaning of the whole play. The foul copy editor must have got it wrong. Oh and there should be a semi-colon instead of a comma here!" ?
Ever heard of a guy called Johnathan Bate who edited the new Arden Titus? He was one of my profs at Warwick and could go on about things like this for ages...:sick:

SleepyWitch

11-29-2006, 09:45 AM

Ooops, That was Ben Kingsly that played in the Twelfth Night movie. Sorry. One bald guy looks just like another. :lol: :lol:

erhem :) no they don't :)
wow, I didn't know he was in Hamlet with Derek Jacobi (another of my fave actors). Would that be the production by what's his name that caused a lot of stir because Jacobi was a bit old to play Hamlet?

Virgil

11-29-2006, 09:46 AM

I wonder if Sleepy has noticed my last comment in my last post above. :rolleyes:

Schokokeks

11-29-2006, 09:54 AM

Virgil

11-29-2006, 11:06 AM

erhem :) no they don't :)
wow, I didn't know he was in Hamlet with Derek Jacobi (another of my fave actors). Would that be the production by what's his name that caused a lot of stir because Jacobi was a bit old to play Hamlet?

Well, Jacobi was forty-ish when he played it. I didn't know it caused a problem. He did a great job. It is the best Hamlet I have ever seen. You might want to check it out, if you can find the DVD. It is the BBC production. And Stewart did a fine job as Claudius.

SleepyWitch

11-29-2006, 11:30 AM

Oh nooooooo, now I finally understand your signature, Sleepy ! Didn't struck me until now in the light of this thread!! Yes, I'm slow, I know :D

Wow, I never knew you studied at Warwick. I hear it is one of the best departments in the UK for English. Were you there on ERASMUS ?

So will I :nod:.

erhem, DAAD :blush:
hee, make sure you get good marks and apply with the DAAD, too, it's so much better than ERASMUS. They pay you 375 Euros a month and you get the money every month, not at the end of your year abroad after you've paid for everything yourself.

I'll keep an eye open for the DVD, Virgil..
sorry wrong expression.. it didn't really cause a problem.. I read a snide comment about Jacobi's age by some critic in a text book, but i don't think there were any major problems

Janine

11-30-2006, 09:15 PM

I am all for doing "Twelfth Night" for December - seems more Christmasy. But that can be on the formal discussion group under Shakespeare or play of the month - however they decide to set it up and label it. But you guys can have a separate discussion on "Antony and Cleopatra" on this thread - hey, why not?
I just saw the Jacobi "Hamlet" version, thanks to Virgil, and it was great! Do see it, since you like Jacobi and the guy (forget his name now) playing Claudius. I am not that familiar with this actor, but did recognise him when I viewed this BBC version of "Hamlet". I thought he was in "Star Trek - Next Generation". Interesting Sleepy Witch, thanks for clarifying that for me.
Great still photos, Virgil. Thanks!

Schokokeks

12-03-2006, 05:17 AM

ShoutGrace

12-03-2006, 07:13 PM

I started reading last night, and got through the first 2 acts. Should be done with it by tommorow. ;)

One thing that I quickly became aware of (it might not be as important for those with a more sophisticated knowledge of the times) is the great benefit knowing the history of the events surrounding the drama accords to the reader. Knowing all about the Pompey's (The Great, his son, his son's son, etc) clarified things a great deal for me.

I wish I would have read "Julius Caesar" beforehand, as well . . . as "Antony and Cleopatra," while not being a continuation of it per se, still follows after - and much of the history there would be beneficial to understanding these characters, again.

I'm just using the cheapest possible edition of paperback that I could find in the nearest bookstore (I was pressed for time), but I also have a "complete works," one which you don't seem to be able to get outside of the U.S. I'm going to look around for a book relating to the "History behind Shakespeare's Roman Dramas" or something like that.

Let me know when you guys are done. :D

Janine, I'm definitely hoping you can join in. :)

bluevictim

12-03-2006, 08:46 PM

I wish I would have read "Julius Caesar" beforehand, as well . . . as "Antony and Cleopatra," while not being a continuation of it per se, still follows after - and much of the history there would be beneficial to understanding these characters, again.
...
I'm going to look around for a book relating to the "History behind Shakespeare's Roman Dramas" or something like that. Don't overlook one of Shakespeare's principal sources -- Plutarch's Parallel Lives. For the play Antony and Cleopatra, the life of Antony is especially important (of course). I'm not sure if the translation that Shakespeare himself used is still being printed, but there are a number of translations on the market today, all of which would probably be more readable than the one Shakespeare himself used.

Virgil

12-03-2006, 08:50 PM

I wish I would have read "Julius Caesar" beforehand, as well . . . as "Antony and Cleopatra," while not being a continuation of it per se, still follows after - and much of the history there would be beneficial to understanding these characters, again.

Not a big deal about having not read Julius Caesar. Only two characters carry over, Ocatavius and Antony. And they are now older. I think historically these events occured about ten years after. Both to summarize it, Ocatvius (Caesar's nephew and step son) and Antony (Caesar's lead General) had teamed up to defeat Ceaear's assassins and now share power over the empire. The two now are at odds for sole control. That's essentially where A&C starts. One last thing is their personalities. Ocatvius is cool and calculating; Antony is...well, you'll see. :)

SleepyWitch

12-04-2006, 05:32 AM

Schokokeks

12-04-2006, 06:02 AM

I've been a very bad Witch :crash: I started writing a short story and couldn't get myself to do anything else. so i haven't got started on A&C yet :( can you give me till next week?

Oh hey, don't worry, I for my part will try to have understood it by Thursday :p.
And since you were the one who got us started, we will of course wait for you :nod:.

Virgil

12-04-2006, 08:21 AM

I've been a very bad Witch :crash: I started writing a short story and couldn't get myself to do anything else. so i haven't got started on A&C yet :( can you give me till next week?
I'll try my best to get started on it by Thursday, but I have to write my story first.

Just saw this. Yes, what a bad witch. :sick: I made sure i read the first act last night, staying up way past my bedtime. And now here at work and I'm so sleepy. :yawnb:

A little dramatics on my part. :D

But I really did read the first act and was going to post something.

SleepyWitch

12-04-2006, 09:07 AM

poor Virgil. I'm sorry. I'll squeeze in the first act tonight then..

Virgil

12-04-2006, 10:24 PM

*bump* For those who may have missed this thread, we are reading Antony and Cleopatra over the next few weeks and discussing it here.

Petrarch's Love

12-05-2006, 01:36 AM

Hi guys. I hadn't realized that everyone was getting a December discussion going here. You can definately count me in.

Petrarch's Love, you did annotations for A&C? Are you one of those people who go "wait, this guy shouldn't enter from the left, he should be on the right because it changes the meaning of the whole play. The foul copy editor must have got it wrong. Oh and there should be a semi-colon instead of a comma here!" ?

Guilty as charged. :blush: Actually I didn't have much to do with the textual preperation of the edition I worked on, since they already had the rights to an established text (I would have loved to have more of a say on those choices though). My job was writing the footnotes and glosses, meaning that I was explaining historical context, tricky or antiquated language, etc. Basically that means I've written some sort of gloss or commentary for nearly every line in the play. :lol:

Ever heard of a guy called Johnathan Bate who edited the new Arden Titus? He was one of my profs at Warwick and could go on about things like this for ages...

Yeah, I would imagine if you were doing an Arden edition you'd get pretty caught up in it. That must be a fantastic project to do. He did a great job with Titus if I remember right.

Petrarch's Love

12-05-2006, 01:45 AM

I am starting with Antony and Cleopatra today, and have borrowed a copy from the university library. They had lots of editions to choose from, and I picked the Arden, but now I find that there are so many on-page annotations packed with references to other works, discussions over 2 pages on one word, and lots of other information that disturb my flow of reading (we aren't reading this 100% scholarly anyway, are we...?). In case you do want to discuss the place of a specific comma, I'd stick to the Arden, of course :D, but if not I'll go and get another one. I had a quick look into the Oxford edition, which I liked better (more vocabulary explanations for the non-native me :D).
Anyway, which edition are you using ?

Shokokeks--Yes, the Ardens are great scholarly editions but they can be a bit overboard for a casual read. I read all the major editions of the play when I was working on the annotations, and I really liked the footnotes the Bantam edition for being both concise and accessible. The Oxford is also good, but sometimes inclined to be a bit more academic like the Arden. Hope you find an edition you like. :)

SleepyWitch

12-05-2006, 04:17 AM

*bump* For those who may have missed this thread, we are reading Antony and Cleopatra over the next few weeks and discussing it here.

"..the next few weeks" --> I'm reliefed :) my story is doing fine but I still haven't read any A&C... bad witchy :(

PL, I've got Jonathan Bate's Titus on my book shelf (bought it as a souvenir :) ) but I haven't looked at it yet.

yeah! I've studied with a famous professor! yeehas. *not showing off at all* I've even got his signature in my Oxford Advanced Dictionary because he had to approve it for the exam. hahah, I just walked in there and said "Excuse me Jonathan, could I have your signature?" and he said "Yes sure" and signed it without a fuss. He didn't bothered to find out that it was monolingual (only bilingual dictionaries were allowed!). Hehehe, I love English univ culture :)

Virgil

12-05-2006, 09:22 AM

Well, I'm not going to wait for the sleepy people. :D I'm going to start the conversation.

In the fist scene of Act I, we are introduced to Antony, first through an observation by one of his soldiers, Philo. And he sees this once great general transformed: "this dotage of our general's/O'erflows the measure" and

...his captain's heart,
Which in the scuffles of great fights hath burst
The buckles on his breast, reneges all temper,
And is become the bellows and the fan
To cool a gipsy's lust
And then enters Cleo and Ant and in most dramatazations they are pretty lovey-dovey, kissing throughout the scene and grasping each other.

And what we see is a lack of responsibility on Ant's part. Messengers come from Rome with news and he scoffs at them:

MARK ANTONY
Let Rome in Tiber melt, and the wide arch
Of the ranged empire fall! Here is my space.
Kingdoms are clay: our dungy earth alike
Feeds beast as man: the nobleness of life
Is to do thus; when such a mutual pair
I think the metaphor of "dungy earth" feeding beasts may be one of the central metaphors of the play. Out of rich earth one is fed to satisfaction so that the hard work of empire becomes a drag, a hinderence on one's work. The "nobleness of life" is not to build arches and kingdoms but to luxeriate in the love and sensuality of the woman.

The messenger is never even listened to.

There is more here (Cleopatra's personality), but for another post.

Schokokeks

12-05-2006, 10:48 AM

Thank you, Petrarch's Love, I'll go and have a look at the Bantam editon then :nod:.

I've got Jonathan Bate's Titus on my book shelf (bought it as a souvenir :) ) but I haven't looked at it yet.
yeah! I've studied with a famous professor! yeehas. *not showing off at all* I've even got his signature in my Oxford Advanced Dictionary because he had to approve it for the exam. hahah, I just walked in there and said "Excuse me Jonathan, could I have your signature?" and he said "Yes sure" and signed it without a fuss. He didn't bothered to find out that it was monolingual (only bilingual dictionaries were allowed!). Hehehe, I love English univ culture :)
Tssssss, Fauli, really ! :rolleyes:. Up to here, you had been my hero :D.

I'm done with the first act so far, and will be joining the discussion soon (staying at a friend's, don't have my copy at hand)

Virgil

12-05-2006, 11:13 AM

Thank you, Petrarch's Love, I'll go and have a look at the Bantam editon then :nod:.

Tssssss, Fauli, really ! :rolleyes:. Up to here, you had been my hero :D.

I'm done with the first act so far, and will be joining the discussion soon (staying at a friend's, don't have my copy at hand)

There's a copy on lit net authors.

Petrarch's Love

12-05-2006, 10:09 PM

Well, it looks like Virgil has us started off on our discussion of scene one. As Virg. points out, some of the highlights to this scene are the speeches describing Antony's transformation from the warrior and empire maker to the lover. In the opening lines, and then throughout the play there are many allusions to the disarmament of Mars, the god of war, by Venus the god of love, which was a popular subject during the Renaissance. When starting this play I'm always reminded of the painting of Mars disarmed by Venus by Botticelli:
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/LeonardoD/W-Botticelli-Mars-venus.jpg

Another thing that you can start to see in this scene, and that a lot of people remark on about this play in general, is that the set speeches or soliloquays in the play are usually given to characters other than Antony and Cleopatra, while the two main characters spend a lot of their time in dialogue (often with each other). One thing we might want to think about as we're reading the play is where and how Shakespeare chooses to use dialogue, since it's really a great play for that.

I think the line that stands out most to me in this first scene is Cleopatra's declaration that "Antony/ Will be himself" (1.1.44-45). Within it's immediate context the line ambiguously might suggest any number of things. She might be meaning to imply that Antony will be his Roman self by paying attention to the message rather than her; or she might mean that he is being a fool by being himself; or that when he's himself he's a liar. In terms of the play in general the question of who Antony is, and what it means for him to be himself crops up again and again.

As for Cleopatra, since Virg. didn't get to her. She's the ultimate tease in this scene. Poor Antony doesn't have a chance. She's angry with him if he shows signs of paying attention to Fulvia's message, and she's petulant if he claims he doesn't care for Fulvia, and the more she's contradictory and cross, the more he tries to please.

Petrarch's Love

12-05-2006, 10:24 PM

PL, I've got Jonathan Bate's Titus on my book shelf (bought it as a souvenir ) but I haven't looked at it yet.

yeah! I've studied with a famous professor! yeehas. *not showing off at all* I've even got his signature in my Oxford Advanced Dictionary because he had to approve it for the exam. hahah, I just walked in there and said "Excuse me Jonathan, could I have your signature?" and he said "Yes sure" and signed it without a fuss. He didn't bothered to find out that it was monolingual (only bilingual dictionaries were allowed!). Hehehe, I love English univ culture

Ah, all we academic types fondly dream that someday we too will be famous enough that students will come to us with copies of the Oxford Advanced Dictionary looking for autographs. :lol: Seriously, though I understand the feeling. I remember being thrilled when I first came here and a very famous Shakespeare professor who's on our faculty (actually, the same prof. I'll be teaching with next term) signed the copy of the Renaissance drama anthology he recently edited and that we were using in class. There's something special about getting to meet the people who we normally think of as some sort of faceless authority on the page. The professor I refer to also incidently turned out to be a perfectly delightful human being who has parties at his house for his students on a regular basis, which is another perque of meeting scholars in the flesh rather than just reading their books. ;)

Janine

12-05-2006, 10:39 PM

Just stopping by to say hi, so you won't forget me and think I am not interested in the Sh discussions, not the case at all. I see you seem to be getting the discussion off the ground in some capacity. I don't think I will be participating very much this month - I have too much to do leading to the holidays, and I am reading other things I have to finish up first. I have not read A&C, or I would have participated. I will pick up on Twefth Night and the play for January.

Virgil

12-05-2006, 11:35 PM

I think the line that stands out most to me in this first scene is Cleopatra's declaration that "Antony/ Will be himself" (1.1.44-45). Within it's immediate context the line ambiguously might suggest any number of things. She might be meaning to imply that Antony will be his Roman self by paying attention to the message rather than her; or she might mean that he is being a fool by being himself; or that when he's himself he's a liar. In terms of the play in general the question of who Antony is, and what it means for him to be himself crops up again and again.

As for Cleopatra, since Virg. didn't get to her. She's the ultimate tease in this scene. Poor Antony doesn't have a chance. She's angry with him if he shows signs of paying attention to Fulvia's message, and she's petulant if he claims he doesn't care for Fulvia, and the more she's contradictory and cross, the more he tries to please.

That ambiguity is clearly important, because in the next scene Antony comes to his senses. But we'll get to scene two.

Back to scene I. Not only is she a tease, but she hits him where it hurts, almost challening his command and power. It is the reversal of imperium (1. Absolute rule; supreme power. 2. A sphere of power or dominion; an empire.), the Roman authority to command. What kind of a Roman is he here, one can ask?

CLEOPATRA
Nay, hear them, Antony:
Fulvia perchance is angry; or, who knows
If the scarce-bearded Caesar have not sent
His powerful mandate to you, 'Do this, or this;
Take in that kingdom, and enfranchise that;
Perform 't, or else we damn thee.'

Her teasing are subjects that hit hard. He's a married man and Cleo brings up his wife's emotions. What married man who's having an affair would want to have that brought up. And she then brings up his political equal and she characterizes him as a boy, but a boy who has the power to order Antony to do things. She is making him diminutive, and exerting her power. And she continues:

CLEOPATRA
Perchance! nay, and most like:
You must not stay here longer, your dismission
Is come from Caesar; therefore hear it, Antony.
Where's Fulvia's process? Caesar's I would say? both?
Call in the messengers. As I am Egypt's queen,
Thou blushest, Antony; and that blood of thine
Is Caesar's homager: else so thy cheek pays shame
When shrill-tongued Fulvia scolds. The messengers!
It makes Antony blush, a grizzled soldier blush? She's in command, and he is in dotage.

SleepyWitch

12-06-2006, 06:23 AM

finished off my story (check it out :) )
will get started on A&C tonight.
sorry again.

dramasnot6

12-06-2006, 08:25 AM

is it too late for me to join in? i havent read A&C for almost 2 years!

Virgil

12-06-2006, 08:28 AM

is it too late for me to join in? i havent read A&C for almost 2 years!

Never too late. But we've just started. Come on in and contribute. :) I'm looking forward to your thoughts, since you've already read it once.

dramasnot6

12-06-2006, 08:31 AM

Thanks! I havent read it cover to cover before though, maybe around 3/5altogether. But from what i have read i love the play and look forward to having a more serious read of it!

dramasnot6

12-06-2006, 08:39 AM

just started reading first scene
i enjoy the contrast of Philos scolding of love and how it is distracting Anthony, with anthony and cleopatras "puppy eyes" swooning over eachother right after. That shakespeare...its only the beggning of the play and hes already charmed me!

dramasnot6

12-06-2006, 08:42 AM

aww anthony is so love sick...i love how Shakespeare presents Cleo, the female, as the practical "lets get back to business" one. She must have had to been so tough to deal with all that at such a young age...

dramasnot6

12-06-2006, 08:45 AM

Virgil

12-06-2006, 08:56 AM

gah..im mis-spelling antony..sorry..its late here...

Now, for the love of Love and her soft hours,
Let's not confound the time with conference harsh:
There's not a minute of our lives should stretch
Without some pleasure now.
He is just smitten, isnt he?

Yes, smitten. But it seems more than just that too. "love of Love" and "lives should stretch/without some pleasure" Antony is absorbed with the pleasure of it. He has lived his life as a soldier, which is to say he has had to deny himself physical comforts and the easy life of court. Now he does not "a minute of [their] lives" to go by without pleasure. The change must be radical to his constitution, and at his age (upper middle age) the luxerious life feels so much better to the body (and I'm not talking about sex here) than to a young person.

Schokokeks

12-06-2006, 10:08 AM

Puh, having read Sleepy's entertaining story (not advertising it at all :D), here I'm back with Willy.

I thought I'd post a quick outline of the historical action relevant for the play (omitting concrete dates). That might make it easier for those reading with us that aren't familiar with it:
(I write this from memory, so feel free to correct :nod:):

* JULIUS CAESAR defeats POMPEIUS.
* " has a liason with CLEOPATRA, their son's called CAESARION.
* " dies.
* MARCUS ANTONIUS and OCTAVIAN (J. CAESAR'S adopted son, now called CAESAR) engage in a civil war.
* CAESAR is defeated
* ANTONIUS forms an allience with LEPIDUS (due to the latter being rich, I think...)
* ANTONIUS, CAESAR and LEPIDUS reconcile & form a triumvirate
* ANTONIUS and CAESAR defeat Brutus and Cassius, the murderes of J. Caesar
* ANTONIUS meets CLEOPATRA at Cydnus
* Lucius (ANTONIUS'S brother) and Fulvia (ANTONIUS'S wife) prepare for war against CAESAR.
* Fulvia dies.
* ANTONIUS is married to OCTAVIA (CAESAR'S sister) to reconcile ANT. and CAESAR.
* CLEOPATRA gives birth to twins by ANTONIUS.
* ANTONIUS separates from OCTAVIA, returns to CLEOPATRA
* donations of Alexandria: ANTONIUS calls CLEOPATRA the "Queen of Kings" and CAESARION the "King of Kings" (thus kind of dividing the empire among them)
* upcoming war between CAESAR and ANTONIUS.
* ANTONIUS divorces OCTAVIA.
* battles of Actium and Alexandria: ANTONIUS is defeated.
* suicide of ANTONIA and CLEOPATRA.

Phew, what a story !

Schokokeks

12-06-2006, 10:31 AM

Thank you for sharing the beautiful painting, Petrarch's Love. With that notion of Antony resembling Mars and being called the "triple pillar of the world", and Cleopatra pictured as a seducing Venus, I think it adds something almost heroic and epic to the tragedy.

As to the first scene:

I think the line that stands out most to me in this first scene is Cleopatra's declaration that "Antony/ Will be himself" (1.1.44-45). Within it's immediate context the line ambiguously might suggest any number of things. She might be meaning to imply that Antony will be his Roman self by paying attention to the message rather than her; or she might mean that he is being a fool by being himself; or that when he's himself he's a liar. In terms of the play in general the question of who Antony is, and what it means for him to be himself crops up again and again.

I wondered whether that line might be related to this passage (56-61):

PHILO:
Sir, sometimes, when he is not Antony,
He comes too short of that great property
Which still should go with Antony.
DEMETRIUS:
I am fully sorry
That he approves the common liar, who
Thus speaks of him at Rome;

dramasnot6

12-06-2006, 05:25 PM

Yes, smitten. But it seems more than just that too. "love of Love" and "lives should stretch/without some pleasure" Antony is absorbed with the pleasure of it. He has lived his life as a soldier, which is to say he has had to deny himself physical comforts and the easy life of court. Now he does not "a minute of [their] lives" to go by without pleasure. The change must be radical to his constitution, and at his age (upper middle age) the luxerious life feels so much better to the body (and I'm not talking about sex here) than to a young person.

Very good points there Virgil, i never even considered how his background as a soldier would fit into it:D :thumbs_up . You mention also how his age plays into his appreciation of his lifestyle. Maybe, since as a soldier he has experiencd near-death so many times, his fear of a lurking end(possibly a foreshadowing???from what i recall he commited suicide, right?) also causes him to "live it up" while he can.

dramasnot6

12-06-2006, 05:26 PM

Petrarch's Love

12-06-2006, 06:23 PM

Back to scene I. Not only is she a tease, but she hits him where it hurts, almost challening his command and power. It is the reversal of imperium (1. Absolute rule; supreme power. 2. A sphere of power or dominion; an empire.), the Roman authority to command. What kind of a Roman is he here, one can ask?...
...Her teasing are subjects that hit hard. He's a married man and Cleo brings up his wife's emotions. What married man who's having an affair would want to have that brought up. And she then brings up his political equal and she characterizes him as a boy, but a boy who has the power to order Antony to do things. She is making him diminutive, and exerting her power. And she continues:

...It makes Antony blush, a grizzled soldier blush? She's in command, and he is in dotage.

Absolutely, she knows how to push his buttons. She can be really quite cruel sometimes. You almost have to wince for Antony. At the same time, I think something that's fantastic about this scene is that it both shows the way she exerts her power over Antony and the way she is simultaneously insecure and potentially at his mercy (though he doesn't realize it here). When she first berates him for blushing "when shrill-tongued Fulvia scolds," she's not only getting in a dig at him, but testing him to see if he really cares more for Fulvia than he does for her. Then when she turns around and says "Excellent falsehood!/ Why did he marry Fulvia and not love her?" she is not only needling him about his emotional relationship with his wife, but also betraying both her unease that he might actually still love Fulvia and her unease that perhaps he never did love Fulvia, since if he married Fulvia without loving her, it's also possible that his promises to Cleopatra were made without any real love. I think the reason she's going so overboard about exerting her power in this scene has to do with her own insecurities. After all, in the next line, ("I'll seem the fool I am not") she shows that she's afraid on some level that she's being made a fool of.

dramasnot6

12-06-2006, 06:40 PM

I agree with your analysis Petrarch(which is really fantastic by the way). Maybe she is also exerting her power because she is insecure about her political status. From her previous history scheming with Ceaser to rule, she obviously is power and status hungry and doesnt want superficiality and romance to get in the way of her Queenhood.

If the scarce-bearded Caesar have not sent
His powerful mandate to you, 'Do this, or this;
Take in that kingdom, and enfranchise that;
Perform 't, or else we damn thee.'

perhaps the political initiative she exhibits in some lines serves as a contrast with the emotional insecurity you mentioned, that is exhibited in other lines.

Possibly her insecurity is also derived from her losing Ceaser and fear of losing Antony. As i mentioned in my earlier post, perhaps Antony is concentrating on love for his fear of death. In turn, Cleopatra could also fear their death, but takes a less doubting approach by trying to prevent it through political strategy and wariness. The age difference is signifigant in this contrast of solution to fear of death, as Cleopatra is younger and she has less of an idea that death is inevitable. Where as Antony is much older and has much more experience with death, and therefore is more accepting of his fate.

Petrarch's Love

12-06-2006, 06:46 PM

Schokokeks--Thanks for posting the chronology. That should be helpful for us. :)

I wondered whether that line might be related to this passage (56-61):
Quote:
PHILO:
Sir, sometimes, when he is not Antony,
He comes too short of that great property
Which still should go with Antony.
DEMETRIUS:
I am fully sorry
That he approves the common liar, who
Thus speaks of him at Rome;

Yes, that's another key point where the question of who Antony is crops up in this scene. I find the use of the word "property" here interesting. The primary meaning of property in this context is as a distinguishing quality or attribute. I think there's also still the secondary sense of "property" as something owned at play here as well, so that it suggests not only that he is without noble attributes he formerly had, but also no longer own himself.

Virgil

12-06-2006, 08:25 PM

Virgil

12-06-2006, 08:37 PM

Absolutely, she knows how to push his buttons. She can be really quite cruel sometimes. You almost have to wince for Antony. At the same time, I think something that's fantastic about this scene is that it both shows the way she exerts her power over Antony and the way she is simultaneously insecure and potentially at his mercy (though he doesn't realize it here). When she first berates him for blushing "when shrill-tongued Fulvia scolds," she's not only getting in a dig at him, but testing him to see if he really cares more for Fulvia than he does for her. Then when she turns around and says "Excellent falsehood!/ Why did he marry Fulvia and not love her?" she is not only needling him about his emotional relationship with his wife, but also betraying both her unease that he might actually still love Fulvia and her unease that perhaps he never did love Fulvia, since if he married Fulvia without loving her, it's also possible that his promises to Cleopatra were made without any real love. I think the reason she's going so overboard about exerting her power in this scene has to do with her own insecurities. After all, in the next line, ("I'll seem the fool I am not") she shows that she's afraid on some level that she's being made a fool of.

Cleopatra is miles ahead of Antony when it comes to relationship skills, for lack of a better phrase. She thinks like a chess player here and thinking moves ahead.

Shakespeare has certain character types that run through his plays, and one of the types is the manipulator: Richard III or Orthello. Now they have different other qualities too which of course makes the plays different. Here in this play I think Cleopatra is a Shakespeare manipulator type.

Virgil

12-06-2006, 08:43 PM

dramasnot6

12-07-2006, 03:06 AM

shall we start on scene 2?

dramasnot6

12-07-2006, 07:34 AM

Cleopatra is miles ahead of Antony when it comes to relationship skills, for lack of a better phrase. She thinks like a chess player here and thinking moves ahead.

Shakespeare has certain character types that run through his plays, and one of the types is the manipulator: Richard III or Orthello. Now they have different other qualities too which of course makes the plays different. Here in this play I think Cleopatra is a Shakespeare manipulator type.

Indeed she is the penultimate femme fatale Virgil.

Virgil

12-07-2006, 08:07 AM

Shakespeare has certain character types that run through his plays, and one of the types is the manipulator: Richard III or Orthello.
Oops, I was writing faster than I was thinking last night. I meant Iago of the Othello play.

Virgil

12-07-2006, 08:26 AM

shall we start on scene 2?

Yes, and if you wished to start, you didn't need to ask.

Scene two divides into two parts.
Part 1: Cleopatra's attendants bantering with the soothsayer
Part 2: Antony and the news from Rome from several different messengers.

As to part 1, I'm intrigued by Cleo's two female attendants, Charmian and Iras in how they parallel and contrast Cleopatra. But I think the most important function of this episode is to contrast the Roman milieu with that of the Egyptian milieu. What we have here is playfulness and sexual banter.

As to part 2, we see Antony apart from Cleopatra, and here he demonstrates his command. He is the soldier in charge, makes calculated decisions. He is in his natural element. He hears disturbing political news.

Messenger
The nature of bad news infects the teller.

MARK ANTONY
When it concerns the fool or coward. On:
Things that are past are done with me. 'Tis thus:
Who tells me true, though in his tale lie death,
I hear him as he flatter'd.
He is strong here, but if you take those very words and project them into his relationship with Cleo, you see how opposite he is there. He is flattered by her, and he knows she manipulates him with lies. And as we see in the play, his past with her is not done. He returns to her.

Petrarch's Love

12-07-2006, 01:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schokokeks View Post
Puh, having read Sleepy's entertaining story (not advertising it at all ), here I'm back with Willy.

I thought I'd post a quick outline of the historical action relevant for the play (omitting concrete dates). That might make it easier for those reading with us that aren't familiar with it:
(I write this from memory, so feel free to correct ):

* JULIUS CAESAR defeats POMPEIUS.
* " has a liason with CLEOPATRA, their son's called CAESARION.
* " dies.
* MARCUS ANTONIUS and OCTAVIAN (J. CAESAR'S adopted son, now called CAESAR) engage in a civil war.
* CAESAR is defeated
Yes quite a story. I love Roman history. From Republic to Empire to decline and fall of the west, and even a thousand years later the east. Very fascinating.

But Schoky, I had never seen before that Antony and Octavius faught prior to defeating the conspirators and that Octavius lost. Are you sure about that?

Thanks for bringing that into question, Virg. I had missed seeing that. There was some very complicated disorder after Julius Caesar's death, and Antony and Octavian were certainly unfriendly for awhile. Antony pretty much ignored Octavian coming to town and Octavian had to prove himself which involved stealing some of Antony's troops and some battles between his troops and Antony's, as well as a lot of other complicated martial and political moves that I don't remember offhand. There was a bit of a power struggle between the two men, and they were both dealing with the anti-caesarian factions at the same time, but I'm not sure I would have thought of it as a civil war, or maybe what I mean is that I wouldn't have thought of it as a major civil war. I don't think you could say that Octavian lost anything in the period just prior to forming the triumvirate, since he was in control of Rome at the time.

Edit: I found this biography of Caesar Augustus (aka Octavian) online, which details the events with more clarity than I can. The description of the events leading up to the formation of the triumvirate is under the heading "Entrance into Politics: April 44-November 43 BC." http://www.roman-emperors.org/auggie.htm
For anyone interested, this is another good site with chronologies and information on the Roman Empire from the founding to the fall.
http://www.roman-empire.net/

Virgil

12-07-2006, 02:17 PM

Yes, Petrarch, your description of the events is my recollection. They were basicaly unfriendly and rivals, but had the mutual interst of driving off the conspirators and so worked together.

Petrarch's Love

12-07-2006, 03:46 PM

Cleopatra is miles ahead of Antony when it comes to relationship skills, for lack of a better phrase. She thinks like a chess player here and thinking moves ahead.

I think "reltationship skills" is a great phrase for talking about Antony and Cleopatra. I'll have to keep that in mind when I teach it. Of course, now I'm imagining what these two would look like in couples therapy...

I agree with your analysis Petrarch(which is really fantastic by the way). Maybe she is also exerting her power because she is insecure about her political status. From her previous history scheming with Ceaser to rule, she obviously is power and status hungry and doesnt want superficiality and romance to get in the way of her Queenhood.

Possibly her insecurity is also derived from her losing Ceaser and fear of losing Antony. As i mentioned in my earlier post, perhaps Antony is concentrating on love for his fear of death. In turn, Cleopatra could also fear their death, but takes a less doubting approach by trying to prevent it through political strategy and wariness. The age difference is signifigant in this contrast of solution to fear of death, as Cleopatra is younger and she has less of an idea that death is inevitable. Where as Antony is much older and has much more experience with death, and therefore is more accepting of his fate.

Yes, I think you've got two great points here. The merging of the amorous and the political realms is certainly another central theme in this play,and I think you're right about Cleo's insecurity as to her political status.

I like your suggestion that both of them might also be a bit skittish about the possibility of impending death and thus more likely to throw themselves into amorous pursuits. I'm not sure about the contrast in age being especially significant in this regard though. Cleopatra may not have seen the amount of death that a veteran soldier would have, and she is certainly younger than Antony. She was 39 when she died and the play covers roughly ten years of history, so she's about 29 or 30 at the begginning of the play, while Antony would be about 43 (he was 53 when he died). All the same, I think she's a pretty experienced and sophisticated woman of the world at this point. She's been a wife, a mother and the mistress of two powerful men, one of whom was assasinated.

Petrarch's Love

12-07-2006, 04:11 PM

As for scene two, from an annotator's point of view, that was a lot of work. I had no idea how many bawdy innuendos could be packed into a single line until it suddenly became my job to explain them all in footnotes. :lol: There's a lot of great stuff going on in this scene. As Virgil points out, it's divided between Cleopatra's lascivious world on the one hand, and the call to Rome and duty (along with regret at the passing of Fulvia) on the other. The character who's present in both parts of the scene is Enobarbus, who has that great line, "Hush! Here comes Antony" when Cleopatra enters the scene. It's also in Enobarbus' dialogue that the sort of banter and sexual innuendo that we saw among Cleopatra's attendents carries over into the second half of the scene. He keeps up the naughty puns and bawdy suggestions until Antony finally re-asserts his position as a commander, declaring "No more light answers..." Enobarbus has been freely engaging in locker room style humor with Antony the lover, and we can see that Antony is returning to the role of Antony the general when he puts Enobarbus back in the position of the loyal follower who says to his commander only "I shall do 't."

Schokokeks

12-07-2006, 04:52 PM

Antony pretty much ignored Octavian coming to town and Octavian had to prove himself which involved stealing some of Antony's troops and some battles between his troops and Antony's, [...] but I'm not sure I would have thought of it as a civil war, or maybe what I mean is that I wouldn't have thought of it as a major civil war.
Hmm, I'm no warfare expert whatsoever, but ...

As such, Octavian continued his preparations to attack Antony, now declared a public enemy, who had begun besieging Decimus Brutus at Mutina. Octavian, now an official representative of the republic, led his force into the region and moved against Antony.[...] Having secured his army's loyalty, Octavian marched on Rome and seized the city with eight legions. Three legions brought from outside Italy to counter him defected.
... this is what I'd call a war.

I don't think you could say that Octavian lost anything in the period just prior to forming the triumvirate, since he was in control of Rome at the time.
Yup, you're right, I didn't remember that correctly. Thanks for clarifying ! :nod:

Virgil

12-07-2006, 05:03 PM

dramasnot6

12-07-2006, 06:17 PM

Yes, and if you wished to start, you didn't need to ask.

Scene two divides into two parts.
Part 1: Cleopatra's attendants bantering with the soothsayer
Part 2: Antony and the news from Rome from several different messengers.

As to part 1, I'm intrigued by Cleo's two female attendants, Charmian and Iras in how they parallel and contrast Cleopatra. But I think the most important function of this episode is to contrast the Roman milieu with that of the Egyptian milieu. What we have here is playfulness and sexual banter.

I agree Virgil. The servants in Shakespeare's plays often serve as a cultural insight, but let us also consider their impact as a dramatic element. Shakespeare often uses the role of the servants to provide comedy relief when the protagonist or other relatively signifigant characters were experiencing an intense or tragic set of events. There is lots of use of more crude humor and witty banter between Charmian and Iras. Since Shakespeare had to appeal to both elite and poor audiences, he had to use lots of contrast of classes to appeal to all aspects of his audience. The use of light humor eases the audience into the second part of the scene which contains very dramatic news and philosophical discussion.

Janine

12-07-2006, 08:04 PM

:lol: Comic relief is in every one of Shakespeare's plays....always a key factor in contrast and to appeal to the wide audience in Shakespeare's era. I agree with Virgil and with dramasnot. Both bring up good points.
I am just popping in, so I won't lose touch with the Shakespeare discussion group. Your discussions so far seem to be quite interesting. I have been reading them off and on this week. Wish I could participate, but unfortunately, I did not read the play. Next one I will join in hopefully.:D

Virgil

12-07-2006, 10:28 PM

I agree Virgil. The servants in Shakespeare's plays often serve as a cultural insight, but let us also consider their impact as a dramatic element. Shakespeare often uses the role of the servants to provide comedy relief when the protagonist or other relatively signifigant characters were experiencing an intense or tragic set of events. There is lots of use of more crude humor and witty banter between Charmian and Iras. Since Shakespeare had to appeal to both elite and poor audiences, he had to use lots of contrast of classes to appeal to all aspects of his audience. The use of light humor eases the audience into the second part of the scene which contains very dramatic news and philosophical discussion.

Yes, but it's more than comic releif. It establishes a contrast between the exotic, pleasure obsessed egyptians and the serious stoic-like Romans. Yes that stoic thing comes out again. I think that was Shakespeare's view of most Romans.

Virgil

12-07-2006, 10:57 PM

The most interesting passage of scene two is where he finds out of Fulvia's death:

Second Messenger
Fulvia thy wife is dead.

MARK ANTONY
Where died she?

Second Messenger
In Sicyon:
Her length of sickness, with what else more serious
Importeth thee to know, this bears.

Gives a letter

MARK ANTONY
Forbear me.

Exit Second Messenger

There's a great spirit gone! Thus did I desire it:
What our contempt doth often hurl from us,
We wish it ours again; the present pleasure,
By revolution lowering, does become
The opposite of itself: she's good, being gone;
The hand could pluck her back that shoved her on.
I must from this enchanting queen break off:
Ten thousand harms, more than the ills I know,
My idleness doth hatch.

What are the emotions here: resgination, and guilt. The politics of the previous messenger first puts him in a serious state, and the emotions here turn his constitution around. He must this enchanting queen break off. Despite what will be Cleo's reaction, he will leave.

dramasnot6

12-08-2006, 02:23 AM

Hi Virgil!:wave:

I like what you posted above. We also have a contrast of personality in Antony here. Before he seemed uncaring of politics and distracted by infatuation for Cleopatra, where as she played his more serious, work-minded counterpart. Now there is a reversal of roles, instead of emotion occupying Antony over proffesional obligation, it is that with Cleopatra. Her love for Antony and jealousy for his wife, even deceased, is prioritized over what she knows is his political duty. Where as Antony suddenly thrusts his consideration for Cleopatra's feelings aside in order to take on his role of grieving Roman husband. Funny enough, and i hope I'm overboard here, even when given an example from each, we see the difference in both Cleopatra and Antony's political priortization. Cleopatra is more interested in the issues of war and conflict, where as Antony only brushes off his romance for a more social occupation to preserve his good name.

Virgil

12-08-2006, 11:15 AM

Virgil

12-08-2006, 04:08 PM

Scene three starts off by Shakespeare dramatizing Cleopatra's skills at manipulating men. She debates it with Charmian, who i take as a lesser Cleopatra, very good maipulating skills herself, but not quite the Queen.

CLEOPATRA
Where is he?

CHARMIAN
I did not see him since.

CLEOPATRA
See where he is, who's with him, what he does:
I did not send you: if you find him sad,
Say I am dancing; if in mirth, report
That I am sudden sick: quick, and return.

Exit ALEXAS

CHARMIAN
Madam, methinks, if you did love him dearly,
You do not hold the method to enforce
The like from him.

CLEOPATRA
What should I do, I do not?

CHARMIAN
In each thing give him way, cross him nothing.

CLEOPATRA
Thou teachest like a fool; the way to lose him.

CHARMIAN
Tempt him not so too far; I wish, forbear:
In time we hate that which we often fear.

That last line by Charmian turns out to be wrong. While Antony does leave, he does return and he never hates Cleopatra. Look at the lies she wants her servants to tell Antony, and yet, in this very scene she has the gall to call Antony "the greatest liar." I love this dialogue between Antony and Cleopatra. Antony can't get a word in. He's on the defensive the whole time. [Frankly I know how this feels, :lol: powerful women can put men on the defensive.] Look at how Antony can't get a full reply in (I've shortened Cleo's parts for brevity):

MARK ANTONY
What's the matter?

CLEOPATRA
I know, by that same eye, there's some good news....

MARK ANTONY
The gods best know,--

CLEOPATRA
O, never was there queen...

MARK ANTONY
Cleopatra,--

CLEOPATRA
Why should I think you can be mine and true...

MARK ANTONY
Most sweet queen,--

CLEOPATRA
Nay, pray you, seek no colour for your going,
...Art turn'd the greatest liar.

MARK ANTONY
How now, lady!

CLEOPATRA
I would I had thy inches; thou shouldst know
There were a heart in Egypt.

MARK ANTONY
Hear me, queen:

And in the version I've seen, Antony practically screams that last line to get the initiative.:lol: Poor fellow.:D

And when Antony finally tells her that Fulvia has died, Cleo comes up with one of the most classic of responses:

CLEOPATRA
O most false love!
Where be the sacred vials thou shouldst fill
With sorrowful water? Now I see, I see,
In Fulvia's death, how mine received shall be.
"Now I see, I see" :lol: She's turned this around several hundred degrees. She actually makes him feel guilty double time, for Fulvia and for herself. Just think of the possible alternative responses she could have had to the news of his wife's death: (1) she could have been elated, because now he's free, (2) she could have felt compassion because afterall his wife, who must have meant something to him, has died. But what she makes him feel guilty because he's not contrite enough and then she projects that this same insensitivity will occur when she dies. She's a master chess player!!:lol: His head must be spinning. :D

All I can say is that i thank God my wife doesn't have these relationship skills. :lol:

Virgil

12-08-2006, 11:53 PM

And to cap scene three off, when Antony firmly says that he will leave, Cleo cannot find the right words. Her wit fails her and she breaks down into what she really feels for hin.

MARK ANTONY
I'll leave you, lady.

CLEOPATRA
Courteous lord, one word.
Sir, you and I must part, but that's not it:
Sir, you and I have loved, but there's not it;
That you know well: something it is I would,
O, my oblivion is a very Antony,
And I am all forgotten.

MARK ANTONY
But that your royalty
Holds idleness your subject, I should take you
For idleness itself.

CLEOPATRA
'Tis sweating labour
To bear such idleness so near the heart
As Cleopatra this. But, sir, forgive me;
Since my becomings kill me, when they do not
Eye well to you: your honour calls you hence;
Therefore be deaf to my unpitied folly.
And all the gods go with you! upon your sword
Sit laurel victory! and smooth success
Be strew'd before your feet!

MARK ANTONY
Let us go. Come;
Our separation so abides, and flies,
That thou, residing here, go'st yet with me,
And I, hence fleeting, here remain with thee. Away!
Beneath her cunning games is real love for him. And he returns that love. This makes it so complex. Despite , or should I say, inspite of the politics and cunning games and relationship power struggle, they really do love each other. This makes it so real. Middle aged people bring all of their hang ups that they've acquired over their lives and complicate their love.

I guess I should know. ;)

dramasnot6

12-09-2006, 12:27 AM

wow! looks like youve made great progess for A&C Virgil. I havent got to Scene 3 yet but ill read it by the end of today and hopefully have some comments too.

dramasnot6

12-09-2006, 07:26 AM

Fantastic points Virgil! :D I just read the scene myself and was cracking up all along. It makes you think what the intended reading might have been. Was her manipulation and cunningness supportive of a positive reading on her behalf and therefore more feminist, or is the portryel of her character meniacal and evil and therefore more misogynous?

Then was the time for words: no going then;
Eternity was in our lips and eyes,
Bliss in our brows' bent; none our parts so poor,
But was a race of heaven: they are so still,
Or thou, the greatest soldier of the world,
Art turn'd the greatest liar.
Look how she manipulates his love and contradicts her earlier opinions we observed in the first scene! Before politics and work meant the world to her and she found Antony's puppy eyes a useless distraction. Now she pits his fears of letting life pass him by against him.She makes a single trip sound like the death to all emotion and passion between them, playing on both his personal fears , feelings and possibly his carnal desires. I think there may also be a sexual level to her installment of fear."none our parts so poor" Any double meaning there?
What im trying to figure out is what Shakespeare intends in constantly contrasting and reversing the emotional and behaviour roles of Cleopatra and Antony. They seem to play eachothers binary opposition in terms of priortization of love over work, or vice versa, in every dialogue. But who wears what set of opinions seems to depend on Cleopatra's current state of want .She just wields that much power over him. Yikes.

dramasnot6

12-09-2006, 07:37 AM

Antony-- Our Italy
Shines o'er with civil swords: Sextus Pompeius
Makes his approaches to the port of Rome:
Equality of two domestic powers
Breed scrupulous faction: the hated, grown to strength,
Are newly grown to love: the condemn'd Pompey

Look at that! He's playing the same game agaisnt her now that she played on him the first scene. Trying to educate her of the importance of his actions to change her own opinion. This may be a somewhat feminist reading, but perhaps it shows how he thinks her anger only sprouts from her political ignorance and he must enlighten her to calm it. And even more so, that might be exactly what Cleopatra wanted. Perhaps he's just marching into her manipulative web. She could be feigning dumb to evoke his sympathy and affection by promoting his sense of manhood and superiorty over her.

Antony--I go from hence
Thy soldier, servant; making peace or war
As thou affect'st.
*makes whipping motion*

Sir, you and I must part, but that's not it:
Sir, you and I have loved, but there's not it;
That you know well: something it is I would,
O, my oblivion is a very Antony,
And I am all forgotten.
She doesnt seem satisfied with anything. What kind of insecurities dwell in that royal mind to sprout such a black and white, all or nothing view?

Virgil

12-09-2006, 12:45 PM

Look at that! He's playing the same game agaisnt her now that she played on him the first scene. Trying to educate her of the importance of his actions to change her own opinion. This may be a somewhat feminist reading, but perhaps it shows how he thinks her anger only sprouts from her political ignorance and he must enlighten her to calm it. And even more so, that might be exactly what Cleopatra wanted. Perhaps he's just marching into her manipulative web. She could be feigning dumb to evoke his sympathy and affection by promoting his sense of manhood and superiorty over her.

Well, from his point of view, the situation is real and threatning to Rome. I'm not sure he's playing a game. Whether she undertands and plays dumb or she doesn't I don't know. Antony feels the need to rationalize it to her, probably because she is the stronger will of the two. In Roman literature this echoes Virgil's Aeneid, where Aeneas leaves Dido. There Aeneas does it out of his strong will.

Fantastic points Virgil! :D I just read the scene myself and was cracking up all along. It makes you think what the intended reading might have been. Was her manipulation and cunningness supportive of a positive reading on her behalf and therefore more feminist, or is the portryel of her character meniacal and evil and therefore more misogynous?

I guess that would be in the eye of the beholder. To me it's somewhere in between. To me she's powerful, but she's also cunning in a "feminine" sort of way. She's Cleopatra!

What im trying to figure out is what Shakespeare intends in constantly contrasting and reversing the emotional and behaviour roles of Cleopatra and Antony. They seem to play eachothers binary opposition in terms of priortization of love over work, or vice versa, in every dialogue. But who wears what set of opinions seems to depend on Cleopatra's current state of want .She just wields that much power over him. Yikes.
That's a very interesting point. I was just thinking of the binary situation between Rome and Egypt. I was going to bring that out in the differences between scenes 4 and 5.

Schokokeks

12-10-2006, 09:59 AM

Schoky - I think you're confusing the early days with the war between them that ultimately occurs. We're questioning whether once the conspirators killed Julius Ceasar, Octavius and Antony faught. We're saying that they didn't fight, despite not liking each other, then they share the empire as part of the second triumpherate, and after that they fight a war, which we see in the play. I hope that made sense.

Well, err...no, not really :D. The source I quoted in my last post with Antonius's and Octavian's army movements does refer to the time before the defeat of the conspirators. (Even at that early point, Antonius's troops weren't exactly loyal, as later in the ultimate war between them they again weren't). They reconciled after Antonius suffered some kind of defeat (and here I previously had confused him with Octi), and got rid of the bad boys together:

Shortly after Mutina (where A. was defeated), Octavian had begun showing signs of seeking a reconciliation with Antony; now, he acted resolutely.[...]The two met, with Antony's supporter, M. Aemilius Lepidus, on an island in a river near Bononia. Two days of difficult negotiation produced an agreement: the three Caesarians were to form a "Board of Three for Organizing the State" (triumviri rei publicae constituendae).

But never mind :).

Virgil

12-10-2006, 10:06 AM

Well, err...no, not really :D. The source I quoted in my last post with Antonius's and Octavian's army movements does refer to the time before the defeat of the conspirators. They reconciled after Antonius suffered some kind of defeat (and here I previously had confused him with Octi), and got rid of the bad boys together.
But let's just forget it, okay ? :D

OK, I accept it. It is possible, I just don't remember it. ;) It's not really that important to play anyways. Have you been reading? Any comments?

Schokokeks

12-10-2006, 10:17 AM

wow! looks like youve made great progess for A&C Virgil. I havent got to Scene 3 yet but ill read it by the end of today and hopefully have some comments too.
So far I'm in the middle of the fourth act, but I definetely need to go through it once again, as I really don't feel like I've understood anything beside the very very main plot :(. I don't know why I find it that hard to concentrate on this play. Maybe it's the language (though there are some Shakespeare plays I didn't have that much difficulty with), or the fact that I have only time for reading it when riding public transportation, which might not be the easiest environment to enjoy Willy.
But I'll definetely hold on and can maybe contribute some points by the time you're nearly done with the discussion :p.

PS: Virgil, I edited my post above for some more enlightenment :D. But you're right, it's not really important anyway.

dramasnot6

12-10-2006, 10:27 AM

aww im sure youll get the hang of it. I dont know a cookie smarter then my schoky cookie! :D looking forward to your contribution!!

Virgil

12-10-2006, 10:28 AM

Well, Schoky, it sounds like you're correct. By the way, I've noticed there is a new biography out on Augustus. http://www.amazon.com/Augustus-Life-Romes-First-Emperor/dp/1400061288. I've read Everitt's biography of Cicero and it was excellent.

Virgil

12-10-2006, 10:30 AM

So far I'm in the middle of the fourth act, but I definetely need to go through it once again, as I really don't feel like I've understood anything beside the very very main plot :(. I don't know why I find it that hard to concentrate on this play. Maybe it's the language (though there are some Shakespeare plays I didn't have that much difficulty with), or the fact that I have only time for reading it when riding public transportation, which might not be the easiest environment to enjoy Willy.
But I'll definetely hold on and can maybe contribute some points by the time you're nearly done with the discussion :p.

Yes, don't worry Schoky. I used to have the same trouble when I was our age with Shakespeare, and I'm a native english speaker. Has any of my comments helped? Or what do you think of them?

SleepyWitch

12-11-2006, 06:45 AM

Good points Drama. Whatever happened to Sleepywitch. She started this all, and has never showed up? :lol: But I'm glad I'm reading it. I'll have comments on scene three, a very interesting scene, a bit later.
have you missed me? :) the revised version of my story is up and here I am ready to talk about Act I :) ooops, yeah I know I'm late

As for Cleopatra, since Virg. didn't get to her. She's the ultimate tease in this scene. Poor Antony doesn't have a chance. She's angry with him if he shows signs of paying attention to Fulvia's message, and she's petulant if he claims he doesn't care for Fulvia, and the more she's contradictory and cross, the more he tries to please.

aww anthony is so love sick...i love how Shakespeare presents Cleo, the female, as the practical "lets get back to business" one.

yep, I got that impression, too. She actually urges him to read the message and deal with the politics while he dotes and is totally befuddled. But she conceals her interest in what's going on in the empire by teasing him.

since if he married Fulvia without loving her, it's also possible that his promises to Cleopatra were made without any real love. I think the reason she's going so overboard about exerting her power in this scene has to do with her own insecurities. After all, in the next line, ("I'll seem the fool I am not") she shows that she's afraid on some level that she's being made a fool of.
You mean she is not his wife (the fool I'm not) but since he may not love either of them, she is in the same situation as the wife and so she is a fool like the wife?

HARMIAN.
Good now, some excellent fortune! Let me be married to three
kings in a forenoon, and widow them all: let me have a child at
fifty, to whom Herod of Jewry may do homage: find me to marry me
with Octavius Caesar, and companion me with my mistress.

SOOTHSAYER.
You shall outlive the lady whom you serve.

hum, I was wondering, do these lines somehow poke fun at Cleopatra? I mean, she was wife/mistress to at least three powerful men: her half-brother Ptolemy, J.Caesar, Antony (Octavious offers a truce if she follows him to Rome as a trophy) and she kind of 'widows' them all. --> You shall outlive the lady whom you serve. = what you just said reads like Cleo's CV, but,no, your fate will be different.
The Herod of Jewry bit doesn't fit in of course...
hehe, I know it's rubbish but it would be hilarious if that's what it meant.

IRAS.
There's a palm presages chastity, if nothing else.

CHARMIAN.
E'en as the o'erflowing Nilus presageth famine.

Hehehe, I love these lines :)
Doesn't Cleopatra stand for fertility (the godess Isis), too, just like the Nile? So this would also imply that Cleo is as chaste as the Nile is infertile?

hehe, I'm not saying her servants deliberately mock her, but on a "meta-level" these lines might allude to her????

Virgil

12-11-2006, 07:55 AM

have you missed me? :) the revised version of my story is up and here I am ready to talk about Act I :) ooops, yeah I know I'm late

Well, you got us to read it. :p Yes I missed you. ;)

hum, I was wondering, do these lines somehow poke fun at Cleopatra? I mean, she was wife/mistress to at least three powerful men: her half-brother Ptolemy, J.Caesar, Antony (Octavious offers a truce if she follows him to Rome as a trophy) and she kind of 'widows' them all. --> You shall outlive the lady whom you serve. = what you just said reads like Cleo's CV, but,no, your fate will be different.
Good point. I think it is a slant reference to Cleo.

Doesn't Cleopatra stand for fertility (the godess Isis), too, just like the Nile? So this would also imply that Cleo is as chaste as the Nile is infertile?
But wouldn't fertility imply children? Well, she certainly stands for sexuality. The servants sexual bantering in that scene I think is a contrast to the Roman seriousness and stoicism.

SleepyWitch

12-11-2006, 08:02 AM

But wouldn't fertility imply children? Well, she certainly stands for sexuality. The servants sexual bantering in that scene I think is a contrast to the Roman seriousness and stoicism.
oops, yes you're right.

I'll try and read the 2nd and 3rd Act tonight.
what act/scene are you discussing?

Virgil

12-11-2006, 08:10 AM

I was about to start something on the second act.

SleepyWitch

12-11-2006, 08:37 AM

cool. then I'll read as much as I can and post tomorrow (GMT+1 :) now it's Monday 1.40 p.m.)

dramasnot6

12-11-2006, 06:06 PM

I was about to start something on the second act.

we havent finished act1 though...gah..gotta get reading if we have....

Also, i know its really early on, but could i suggest Othello for the next read? Ive just never read it and it seems really good for analysis, particulary male and female roles.

Virgil

12-11-2006, 10:16 PM

Drama, Next read will probably be Twelfth Night. And then in January we hav started a forum on Shakespeare play reads. The first scheduled will The Taming of the Shrew.

Virgil

12-11-2006, 11:13 PM

Drama this is the new Shakespeare Discussion Group forum that will start in January: http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20513

It lists the for year reads.

SleepyWitch

12-12-2006, 07:23 AM

I'm halfway through the second act...

Caes: Welcome to Rome

Ant. Thanke you

Caes Sit

Ant. Sit sir

Caes: Nay then

this is when Caesar and Antony meet for the first time in the play. They can't even agree on trivial matters, like who's to sit down first. This doesn't bode too well, does it?

Caesar. I do not much dislike the matter, but
The manner of his speech: for't cannot be,
We shall remaine in friendship, our conditions
So diffring in their acts. Yet if I knew,
What Hoope should hold vs staunch from edge to edge
Ath' world: I would persue it

Agri. Giue me leaue Caesar

Caesar. Speake Agrippa
Agrippa's suggestion (that Antony should marry Caesar's sister) is clearly rehearsed. Do these lines mean that Caesar knows about the plan and gives Agrippa his cue to give his little speech? Like "erhem, if I only knew what to do?" *coughcough nudge nudge*?

The city cast
Her people out upon her; and Antony,
Enthroned i' the market-place, did sit alone,
Whistling to the air; which, but for vacancy,
Had gone to gaze on Cleopatra too,
And made a gap in nature.
...
....
Age cannot wither her, nor custom stale
Her infinite variety.

hehe, Antony ...did sit alone whistling to the air.. :lol:
our Shakespeare tutor at Warwick said Enobarbus has a crush on Cleo. Do you think so? I mean it's interesting that the most detailed and elaborate description of her is given by him, but how can you tell he fancies her?

Virgil

12-12-2006, 07:54 AM

Agrippa's suggestion (that Antony should marry Caesar's sister) is clearly rehearsed. Do these lines mean that Caesar knows about the plan and gives Agrippa his cue to give his little speech? Like "erhem, if I only knew what to do?" *coughcough nudge nudge*?

It struck me as rehearsed too, although there's no evidence that it is. But what's interesting about that is Ceasar's committment to making the empire work. He will make peace with Antony and offer his sister if that's what it will take. We know shortly after that Antony is not serious about his responsibilities, or if he is, he's of two minds. Shortly after this scene, although he's going to marry Octavia, he has every intention of going back to Cleo.

our Shakespeare tutor at Warwick said Enobarbus has a crush on Cleo. Do you think so? I mean it's interesting that the most detailed and elaborate description of her is given by him, but how can you tell he fancies her?
Crush? I think he's hot for her. Or not just her, but the whole Egyptian sensual life. I think Enobarbarus's character parallels Antony's, but in a lesser way. Both are epicureans, but while Antony has a element of nobility, Eno is of lower order. He reminds me of Falstaff, only without the humor.

SleepyWitch

12-12-2006, 08:07 AM

It struck me as rehearsed too, although there's no evidence that it is.
our tutor said, the speech is much too well-structured to be spontaneous. For one thing, it's full of stylistic devices (e.g. the blue passages).

AGRIPPA
To hold you in perpetual amity,
To make you brothers, and to knit your hearts
With an unslipping knot, take Antony
Octavia to his wife; whose beauty claims
No worse a husband than the best of men;
Whose virtue and whose general graces speak
That which none else can utter. By this marriage,
All little jealousies, which now seem great,
And all great fears, which now import their dangers,
Would then be nothing: truths would be tales,
Where now half tales be truths: her love to both
Would, each to other and all loves to both,
Draw after her. Pardon what I have spoke;
For 'tis a studied, not a present thought,
By duty ruminated. ---> Agrippa has planned this. But whether Caesar was in on it is a different matter, of course.

He reminds me of Falstaff, only without the humor.
without the humour? I think he's extremely funny :) He teases his boss all the time and has this ironic sense of humour:

DOMITIUS ENOBARBUS
Or, if you borrow one another's love for the
instant, you may, when you hear no more words of
Pompey, return it again: you shall have time to
wrangle in when you have nothing else to do.

MARK ANTONY
Thou art a soldier only: speak no more.

DOMITIUS ENOBARBUS
That truth should be silent I had almost forgot.

Virgil

12-12-2006, 08:10 AM

our tutor said, the speech is much too well-structured to be spontaneous. For one thing, it's full of stylistic devices (e.g. the blue passages).
---> Agrippa has planned this. But whether Caesar was in on it is a different matter, of course.

Oh yes, Agrippa even says that he's given this some thought. I thought you meant Ceasar. It seems as if Ceasar knows about the idea, but no where that I saw has he planned this.

without the humour? I think he's extremely funny :) He teases his boss all the time and has this ironic sense of humour
Yes, Ok, but he's still no Falstaff.

SleepyWitch

12-12-2006, 08:14 AM

i don't remember Falstaff too well, but yep.. I suppose Enobarbus's sense of humour is a bit more subtle/intellectual, although he says some bawdy things in Act I, as well.. but in general he's not as great a clown as Falstaff

Virgil

12-12-2006, 08:37 AM

I wanted to point out something in Act II, Scene 2. The verbal exchange between Antony and Ceasar in a way parallels the exchange that Antony had with Cleo back in Act I, scene 3 but with a very important difference. In the scene with Cleo, as I pointed out in an earlier post, Cleo chastises him while Antony can barely get a word in inchwise. Here Ceasar also is chastising Antony, but notice the differece:

OCTAVIUS CAESAR
I must be laugh'd at,
If, or for nothing or a little, I
Should say myself offended, and with you
Chiefly i' the world; more laugh'd at, that I should
Once name you derogately, when to sound your name
It not concern'd me.

MARK ANTONY
My being in Egypt, Caesar,
What was't to you?

OCTAVIUS CAESAR
No more than my residing here at Rome
Might be to you in Egypt: yet, if you there
Did practise on my state, your being in Egypt
Might be my question.

MARK ANTONY
How intend you, practised?

OCTAVIUS CAESAR
You may be pleased to catch at mine intent
By what did here befal me. Your wife and brother
Made wars upon me; and their contestation
Was theme for you, you were the word of war.

MARK ANTONY
You do mistake your business; my brother never
Did urge me in his act: I did inquire it;
And have my learning from some true reports,
That drew their swords with you. Did he not rather
Discredit my authority with yours;
And make the wars alike against my stomach,
Having alike your cause? Of this my letters
Before did satisfy you. If you'll patch a quarrel,
As matter whole you have not to make it with,
It must not be with this.

OCTAVIUS CAESAR
You praise yourself
By laying defects of judgment to me; but
You patch'd up your excuses.

MARK ANTONY
Not so, not so;
I know you could not lack, I am certain on't,
Very necessity of this thought, that I,
Your partner in the cause 'gainst which he fought,
Could not with graceful eyes attend those wars
Which fronted mine own peace. As for my wife,
I would you had her spirit in such another:
The third o' the world is yours; which with a snaffle
You may pace easy, but not such a wife.

DOMITIUS ENOBARBUS
Would we had all such wives, that the men might go
to wars with the women!

MARK ANTONY
So much uncurbable, her garboils, Caesar
Made out of her impatience, which not wanted
Shrewdness of policy too, I grieving grant
Did you too much disquiet: for that you must
But say, I could not help it.

OCTAVIUS CAESAR
I wrote to you
When rioting in Alexandria; you
Did pocket up my letters, and with taunts
Did gibe my missive out of audience.

MARK ANTONY
Sir,
He fell upon me ere admitted: then
Three kings I had newly feasted, and did want
Of what I was i' the morning: but next day
I told him of myself; which was as much
As to have ask'd him pardon. Let this fellow
Be nothing of our strife; if we contend,
Out of our question wipe him.

OCTAVIUS CAESAR
You have broken
The article of your oath; which you shall never
Have tongue to charge me with.

LEPIDUS
Soft, Caesar!

MARK ANTONY
No,
Lepidus, let him speak:
The honour is sacred which he talks on now,
Supposing that I lack'd it. But, on, Caesar;
The article of my oath.

OCTAVIUS CAESAR
To lend me arms and aid when I required them;
The which you both denied.

MARK ANTONY
Neglected, rather;
And then when poison'd hours had bound me up
From mine own knowledge. As nearly as I may,
I'll play the penitent to you: but mine honesty
Shall not make poor my greatness, nor my power
Work without it. Truth is, that Fulvia,
To have me out of Egypt, made wars here;
For which myself, the ignorant motive, do
So far ask pardon as befits mine honour
To stoop in such a case.

Sorry for the lengthy quote, but Antony clearly defends himself verbally and stands up to Ceasar. The difference is startling, and here Antony is actually admitting wrong doing on his part; he admits he "neglected" his duties. But he forcably defends himself so that the level of power between the two are equal. But he was not equal with Cleopatra, and there he was probably in the right.

We see here that Antony can handle the affairs of state with men, but in the womanly world of Cleopatra, he clearly is not on firm footing.

SleepyWitch

12-13-2006, 06:34 AM

But he forcably defends himself so that the level of power between the two are equal. But he was not equal with Cleopatra, and there he was probably in the right.

We see here that Antony can handle the affairs of state with men, but in the womanly world of Cleopatra, he clearly is not on firm footing.

oi, Uncle Virgil, that's what I call the art of putting things in a nutshell :)
when I read the second act I thought "wow Antony is a totally different man" but it would have taken me 20 pages to define what I mean :)

where are Schoko, drama and PL? let's take a break and wait for them? (still stuck in act 2 myself)

Virgil

12-13-2006, 08:03 AM

oi, Uncle Virgil, that's what I call the art of putting things in a nutshell :)
when I read the second act I thought "wow Antony is a totally different man" but it would have taken me 20 pages to define what I mean :)

where are Schoko, drama and PL? let's take a break and wait for them? (still stuck in act 2 myself)

Thanks. We'll wait. But I have some questions about Act II, Scene 7. It is an amazing scene that I beleive one has to actually see dramatized to get it's full effect. Reading it doesn't do it justice. I have a video of an A&C dramatisation and that scene is overwhelming visually. But frankly within the structure of the play I don't claim to understand it.

msdirector

12-13-2006, 03:37 PM

Thanks. We'll wait. But I have some questions about Act II, Scene 7. It is an amazing scene that I beleive one has to actually see dramatized to get it's full effect. Reading it doesn't do it justice. I have a video of an A&C dramatisation and that scene is overwhelming visually. But frankly within the structure of the play I don't claim to understand it.

Hi Virgil! I'm back. Hi everyone... I'm new to this discussion but I've been reading and enjoying it and trying to catch up on my Antony and Cleopatra before I chimed in....

Act II, scene 7 is the scene in which the Triumverate meet with Pompey at the banquet on his galley. It is - or can be - a very visual scene, although I've seen it performed very simply as well.

Virgil, can you be more specific about what it is you don't understand about the scene...?

Arlene

Virgil

12-13-2006, 03:49 PM

The scene does move the plot in any way. The resolution with Pompey occurs in the previous scene. If this scene were completely taken out, it would have no impact to the play. And yet, this is one of the longest scenes in the entire play. There has got to be more significance, especially since it is so visual and playful.

We see Lepidus drunk. But that really doesn't mean anything to either the Antony and Cleo sub-plot or the Antony and Ceasar rivalry.

We see that Pompey could have killed all three of the Triumpherate (sp?) and become Emperor of the world. But what's so important there. That has no significance either.

Now I have some ideas since I've kicked this around, but I would like to see what people come up with.

Schokokeks

12-13-2006, 03:52 PM

aww im sure youll get the hang of it. I dont know a cookie smarter then my schoky cookie! :DReally, Drama, you're such a sweetiiiie ! :nod:.

Yes, don't worry Schoky. I used to have the same trouble when I was our age with Shakespeare, and I'm a native english speaker. Has any of my comments helped? Or what do you think of them?
Well, funny thing is, we're reading Hamlet for class at the moment, and I don't find that half as difficult to concentrate on. Although the plot is very complex, too, of course, but somehow there I actually understand what's being said in every line.

Yes, all your comments are very helpful :nod:.
I have now completed the play, and am ready to go into the scenes in detail :nod:. This week, though, I'm a bit busy applying for a national scholarship, but I think I shall be able to come back tomorrow or Friday to post something serious.

Virgil

12-13-2006, 04:06 PM

This week, though, I'm a bit busy applying for a national scholarship, but I think I shall be able to come back tomorrow or Friday to post something serious.

Oh please concentrate on that. That is really important. Good luck.

Perhaps some of you here have trouble with A&C because it's a play of middle aged characters ands middle age issues. Hamlet is a young person's play. At the risk of having Janine and msdirector mad at me, I would say that as I get older I find Hamlet a little whiney. :D

Schokokeks

12-13-2006, 04:36 PM

Oh please concentrate on that. That is really important. Good luck.
Thank you very much, Virgil :).

But now that I've posted here, I couldn't resist and have just reread II,7:

Perhaps some of you here have trouble with A&C because it's a play of middle aged characters ands middle age issues.
Yes, I'm beginning to see that, too. Though I'm by no means familiar with middle age problems, I think I've spoted two instances in the scene reminding me of it.Two servants are introducing the drinking scene and are giving their observations both specifical (as to Lepidus being urged to drinking) and more general:

1 SERV:
To be called into a huge sphere, and not to be seen to move in't, are the holes where eyes should be...
This might be a hint to the pressure both Antony and Caesar experience vis-à-vis their responsabilities as triumviri. They had to pave their own way very carefully beforehand, anticipating as many events as possible, planning their actions and thus always hunting political success. Especially Antony seems to be tired of it at the time of the play, as he says to Caesar later in the scene:

ANTONY:
Be a child o' the time.
CAESAR:
Possess it, I'll make answer:...
Caesar, in contrast, does not want to lose control, to abandon himself, even if it's 'only' to wine, but desires to have a firm hold of things, to go on shaping, whereas Antony gives me the impression as if he is aware that he has already reached his peak and cannot advance any further.
So far my two cents :).

At the risk of having Janine and msdirector mad at me, I would say that as I get older I find Hamlet a little whiney. :D
That's interesting, I actually find it quite intriguing :D. But maybe it really has to do with the age of the reader...I'll let you know how I think about it in 20 years time ;).

Virgil

12-13-2006, 04:49 PM

Yes, I'm beginning to see that, too. Though I'm by no means familiar with middle age problems, I think I've spoted two instances in the scene reminding me of it.Two servants are introducing the drinking scene and are giving their observations both specifical (as to Lepidus being urged to drinking) and more general:

This might be a hint to the pressure both Antony and Caesar experience vis-à-vis their responsabilities as triumviri. They had to pave their own way very carefully beforehand, anticipating as many events as possible, planning their actions and thus always hunting political success. Especially Antony seems to be tired of it at the time of the play, as he says to Caesar later in the scene:

Caesar, in contrast, does not want to lose control, to abandon himself, even if it's 'only' to wine, but desires to have a firm hold of things, to go on shaping, whereas Antony gives me the impression as if he is aware that he has already reached his peak and cannot advance any further.
So far my two cents :).

You know I did not really look that carefully at what the servants were saying. That is an interesting line you quote. I'll need to look at that more. Yes, Ceasar's reaction is predictable. We already know that from other scenes. And we already know that Antony can't help himself. But what I find puzzling is how the three leaders would put themselves in a precarious position, without protection. And it's highlighted by pompey's underling, who says they could kill them and get away with it. I also find the scene extremely masculine. It's all men in a bachanal, not a sexual one, but a male drinking party. You're probably only reading the text. I wish I could show you the video version of the drama. The men are dancing and stumbling drunk and singing. Here:

DOMITIUS ENOBARBUS
All take hands.
Make battery to our ears with the loud music:
The while I'll place you: then the boy shall sing;
The holding every man shall bear as loud
As his strong sides can volley.

Music plays. DOMITIUS ENOBARBUS places them hand in hand

THE SONG.
Come, thou monarch of the vine,
Plumpy Bacchus with pink eyne!
In thy fats our cares be drown'd,
With thy grapes our hairs be crown'd:
Cup us, till the world go round,
Cup us, till the world go round!
It's an incredibly visual dance. And like I said, nothing in the scene propells the plot along. So it's all thematic.

That's interesting, I actually find it quite intriguing :D. But maybe it really has to do with the age of the reader...I'll let you know how I think about it in 20 years time ;).
OK, I'll see you in 20 years. :) But by then I will be talking about King Lear, a play that deals with late life. :D And I'll be really OOOOLD then.:bawling:

msdirector

12-13-2006, 05:22 PM

At the risk of having Janine and msdirector mad at me, I would say that as I get older I find Hamlet a little whiney. :D

No argument from me, Virgil. But I really don't think it is a function of our ages (I'm no spring chicken either!), but rather of perception and patience. Hamlet does get a bit "whiney". Or at least philosophically rambling. But that's because it is very much a psychological study, and you can't have that without exploring his psyche. We all tend to get whiny (in our minds) when faced with difficult choices that seem to have no clear answers, even when we put on a macho facade for the public.

Connecting this to the current play, I tend to find Antony incredibly whiny! He does a lot of whining on how none of this is his fault, as well as being completely out of touch with what is going on in his world in his obsession with Cleopatra.

In response to some of the earlier posts on Antony's political abilities compared to Cleopatra's, I think they different in a very, very basic way. Cleopatra is a ruler. She was born and raised as ruler and, by all accounts, her belief in the inherent superiority of Egypt as a country, of all things Egyptian as a culture, a political force and a life style was unshakeable, and her main focus was first and foremost for what was best for her country. She IS Egypt (she is even referred to and refers to herself that way in the play). She learned politics when barely more than a child, not only from her own struggles for her own life and throne, but also from, arguably, the most political man of his times, Julius Caesar, and she learned well. She loves Antony and would do just about anything for him, but NOT to distraction and NOT at the expense of her country. She, like Elizabeth I, could have honestly said "I know I have the body of a weak and feeble woman, but I have the heart and stomach of a king."

Antony, on the other hand, is a soldier. Despite having been put in the position of being a member of the Triumvirate, of wanting power and fighting for it, he really is not a political animal. His interests are personal, not for his country. He is a sensualist and fights - and loves - from emotion, not for principal or beliefs. He was never trained to rule and has no conception of how to weigh the interests of his country against his own desires. He abandons Rome and Roman interests for his own passions - something that Cleopatra never does. He is simply not the ruler or the politician she is and her wit and manipulative powers are far and away beyond his. It's not a question of functioning in a man's or woman's world - although that is part of it - but rather the inner strength and understanding of both those worlds that makes Cleopatra so much stronger, both as a ruler and politician, and as a person, than Antony is.

Opposites attract?

I find it interesting that Cleopatra's strength, political skills and focus on her country makes her seem far more Roman than Antony (perhaps partly though innate qualities and partly through J. Caesar's training) and that Antony's sensuality and passionate self-focus gives him far more like what the Romans (and Shakespeare) described as Egyptian qualities. There is a paradox there. And since ultimately it is the Roman world that triumphs in the story (and history), perhaps it is that which ultimately defeats Antony and that allows Cleopatra, even in her own death, to emerge victorious over her foes.

Petrarch's Love

12-13-2006, 08:00 PM

Hamlet is a young person's play. At the risk of having Janine and msdirector mad at me, I would say that as I get older I find Hamlet a little whiney.

Gee, I'm only gone a couple of days and Virgil has turned into Polonious on us all of a sudden. :D

It looks like you guys are getting into a great discussion of 2.7, but I wanted to take us back for just a moment, since I see that no one's brought out the most famous lines in the play (indeed, some of the most famous from Shakespeare), from 2.2, and I think they should at least be on the table. They come just after the big players (Antony and Caesar) have had their diplomatic sitting match and marriage negotiations, and Enobarbus and Agrippa are left to talk things over:

DOMITIUS ENOBARBUS
I will tell you.
The barge she sat in, like a burnish'd throne,
Burn'd on the water: the poop was beaten gold;
Purple the sails, and so perfumed that
The winds were love-sick with them; the oars were silver,
Which to the tune of flutes kept stroke, and made
The water which they beat to follow faster,
As amorous of their strokes. For her own person,
It beggar'd all description: she did lie
In her pavilion--cloth-of-gold of tissue--
O'er-picturing that Venus where we see
The fancy outwork nature: on each side her
Stood pretty dimpled boys, like smiling Cupids,
With divers-colour'd fans, whose wind did seem
To glow the delicate cheeks which they did cool,
And what they undid did.

AGRIPPA
O, rare for Antony!

DOMITIUS ENOBARBUS
Her gentlewomen, like the Nereides,
So many mermaids, tended her i' the eyes,
And made their bends adornings: at the helm
A seeming mermaid steers: the silken tackle
Swell with the touches of those flower-soft hands,
That yarely frame the office. From the barge
A strange invisible perfume hits the sense
Of the adjacent wharfs. The city cast
Her people out upon her; and Antony,
Enthroned i' the market-place, did sit alone,
Whistling to the air; which, but for vacancy,
Had gone to gaze on Cleopatra too,
And made a gap in nature.

AGRIPPA
Rare Egyptian!

DOMITIUS ENOBARBUS
Upon her landing, Antony sent to her,
Invited her to supper: she replied,
It should be better he became her guest;
Which she entreated: our courteous Antony,
Whom ne'er the word of 'No' woman heard speak,
Being barber'd ten times o'er, goes to the feast,
And for his ordinary pays his heart
For what his eyes eat only.

and later in the scene:

DOMITIUS ENOBARBUS
Never; he will not:
Age cannot wither her, nor custom stale
Her infinite variety: other women cloy
The appetites they feed: but she makes hungry
Where most she satisfies; for vilest things
Become themselves in her: that the holy priests
Bless her when she is riggish.

Like the woman they describe, these passages never seem to stale for me, no matter how many times they're read. The description of Cleopatra on the barge actually follows a passage from Plutarch extremely closely, and it's very interesting to compare the Shakespeare with the source passage and see what changes Shakespeare made to the prose description in order to transform it into this (in my opinion anyway) nearly flawless verse. For anyone interested in the Plutarch, here's a link to the pertinent passage in the North translation, which is the same one Shakespeare would most likely have referred to: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Plut.+Ant.+26

This passage also connects with 2.7, but I'm going to move to that in the next post, since this one's long enough already.

Petrarch's Love

12-13-2006, 08:01 PM

I quoted the passage describing Cleopatra in her barge at length not only because it's beautiful poetry, but because I think it's thematically linked to 2.7. In the earlier passage the water becomes the location for both intense pleasure and political power, one might almost go so far as to say political overthrow, since it is in this scene that Cleopatra, Queen of Egypt, overcomes the General Antony. She entices him off the land into a world of sensuality where he gets caught off guard and his identity as Antony the soldier is first put in jeopardy.

In 2.7 we once again see Antony, and this time the rest of the triumvirate as well, on board a ship and caught off guard, lost in sensuality. This time it is not Cleopatra's but Pompey's ship and it is in him that we see the potential--though not the acheivement--of overthrow. I don't want to say too much for those who haven't read the play before, but those who either have read the play, or who know the history may want to think about the role of the sea versus the land as the location for power struggle at the end of the play. I tend to think of 2.7 as the "worlds collide" scene. Not only does it show the meeting between, to use Virgil's terms, the "male" or martial centered world of the Romans now located in what was earlier described as the "feminine" sensual world of the Egyptians, but the three parts of the known world are metaphorically present in the three leaders. When they all sing "cup us till the world go round," for example, the line means not only that they will drink until it seems to them that the world goes around them, but that when they are spinning around drunkenly then the world will also spin around, since they are the world.

It's a wonderfully complex scene, and I think part of its importance lies in showing an instance of the way the triumvirate interact together in their down time. Shakespeare's covering a daunting amount of history in this play (nearly ten years) so I think this scene partly functions as a slice of time to show how unstable and precarious the political situation between these three men could be.

Incidently, I've always liked the bit about the crocodile in this scene:

LEPIDUS
What manner o' thing is your crocodile?

MARK ANTONY
It is shaped, sir, like itself; and it is as broad
as it hath breadth: it is just so high as it is,
and moves with its own organs: it lives by that
which nourisheth it; and the elements once out of
it, it transmigrates.

It is purposefully an incredibly ambiguous description at the same time as it is entirely straightforward and truthful. In a way it's similar to the way people consistently describe Antony as either being like or unlike Antony but without specifically deciding what Antony is.

Anyway, I could go on about this scene, but I suppose someone else may want to get a word in edgewise. :lol:

Oh, I just saw MsDirector's post. Yes, I think you have an excellent point about Cleopatra having been raised as a ruler. She's certainly a strong political force. I wouldn't necessarily say that Antony was politically naive though. I think you raise an interesting question as to whether Cleopatra is really the one to blame for Antony becoming "un-Roman" or if there is something about Antony himself that is attracted to the Epicurean lifestyle.

Virgil

12-13-2006, 08:23 PM

Great post Petrarch. I can't seem to get enough of Act 2, Scene 7. It mesmorizes me. I don't think you've even scratched the surface. More on it later, when I get more time.

As to Antony being politically naive, I think that isway too strong a statement. Sorry Arlene. He certainly knows the importance of marrying Octavia, he defends himself against Ceasar's charges even when he's actually in the wrong, and going back to the Julius Ceasar play he politically out manuevers Brutus and Cassius. Nor is Cleo all that astute either. She completely screws up the battle, pushing Antony into a fight he can't win. Her best chance would have been a diplomatic treaty with Caesar, but she actually wanted more. And she wanted Antony, who was going to be the loser against Ocativious no matter what. What is interesting is that they both seem to make wrong choices for their love.

The politics are an interesting overlap to the love situation between Cleo and Antony. Why would Shakespeare be so interested in the politics of 1600 years before him in a different world? One doesn't see politics in Romeo and Juliet or Cymbeline or any other play that a love relationship is the critical theme. Here the politics of middle aged people are entangled because adults don't live in an isolated love experience. The world interacts with an adult relationship.

Virgil

12-14-2006, 12:07 AM

More on Act II, Scene 7:

As Schoky pointed out, the servants introductary dialogue is presaging:

First Servant
But it raises the greater war between him and
his discretion.

Second Servant
Why, this is to have a name in great men's
fellowship: I had as lief have a reed that will do
me no service as a partisan I could not heave.

First Servant
To be called into a huge sphere, and not to be seen
to move in't, are the holes where eyes should be,
which pitifully disaster the cheeks
Notice how it echoes several of the temes of the play: war, discretion, men's fellowship, global conflict.

The whole scene is a trip into another world, if I may be metaphoric. The drinking has an effect of creating this mythical imaginary world. The playing Antony teasing the drunk Lepidus about an absurd Egypt and crocodile is an excurision out of reality, sort of like in a Mid Summer Nights Dream, only it's not tangibly real here but from an altered state of mind.

The intoxicated state emphasizes several things. Several have mentioned that Ceasar's and Antony's personalities, one restraining himself, the other completely letting go. What is shown here is one half of the binaries that flow throughout the play: Masculine, imagination (as opposed to cold reality), indulgence (as opposed to stoicism), irresponsibility (as opposed to duty), Rome (as opposed to Egypt).

Another motif here is that wine acts as a poison, which takes the drinkers into a very dangerous place. Poison runs throughout the play as a motif, and of course is how Cleopatra ends her life.

I don't think I've put a complete statement of what the purpose of the scene is. I too have only poked around and noticed elements. I still can't articulate the scene's function.

It is a magnificent scene to see dramatized. Sleepywitch, when you go to London and see the play, you must tell me what you think of this scene.

SleepyWitch

12-18-2006, 06:38 AM

It is a magnificent scene to see dramatized. Sleepywitch, when you go to London and see the play, you must tell me what you think of this scene.

yep, I'll do that... argh, I need to take another break from reading A&C.. there's too much going on at univ

dramasnot6

12-18-2006, 07:39 AM

I am so so behind here guys...i think ill have to quit on the play :( I hope you have fun though! Looks like you have some great analysis going on

Virgil

12-18-2006, 09:32 AM

If I post something, will I be talking to myself? :alien: I will say something on Act III later.

Virgil

12-18-2006, 07:54 PM

I'm moving forward with discussing Act III.

Act III is a mostly a plot transitionary secton. There is lots events that take place in a quick stage time, but I think implied that they happen over a much story longer time span.

Scene 1, Ventidius, Antony's underling, proclaims victory over the Parthians, but is reluctant to overly brag.
Scene 2, Antony and Octavia now married depart for Greece.
Scene 3, Cleo asks about Octavia's looks.
Scene 4, Antony tells Octavia he must prepare for war because Ceasar is preparing against him.
Scene 5, We learn that Antony seems to be procrastinating in his preparations.
Scene 6, Ceasar makes claims that Antony is traitorous and has spurned Octavia.
Scenes 7 Antony against his genreals advice decides to engage Ceasar in a Naval battle.
Scenes 7, 8, 9, 10 The battle is engaged.
Scene 11, Antony retreats from the battle and so loses. He sends to Ceasar terms for peace.
Scene 12, Ceasar rejects Antony's terms but will allow Cleo amnesty if she gives up Antony.
Scene 13, There is finger pointing in Antony's camp as to the loss, Antony has Ceasar's messenger whipped, and Antony and Cleo decide they must continue to battle Ceasar, this time on a ground battle.

Certainly a busy and even confusing Act. But there are a number of things to point out.

1. Ceasar's defeat of Pompey despite their truce is remarkable in showing Ceasar's calculating character. They were just drinking up a party in the previous act. And also Ceasar has turned on Lepidus and found fault with Antony. One wonders if his giving of Octavia in marriage was sincere.

2. I find Antony incredibly genteel, first with Octavia in scene 2. He doesn't love her, we know, but treats her with respect. And then at the end of the act, while he seems convinced that he has lost the battle to Ceasar becuase of Cleo actions, he treats her tenderly and with love (after he blows his fuse).

3. It's incredibly ambiguous as to how Antony has lost. Is it his cowerdous, or has Cleopatra confused the battle and lured Antony away? What exactly happened? I'm not sure.

4. Antony seems to have decided to give up a number of times. Each time he does return to his duty. Is he tired? Does he feal he cannot beat Ceasar no matter what? Is he old?

Schokokeks

12-23-2006, 10:57 AM

1. Ceasar's defeat of Pompey despite their truce is remarkable in showing Ceasar's calculating character. They were just drinking up a party in the previous act. And also Ceasar has turned on Lepidus and found fault with Antony. One wonders if his giving of Octavia in marriage was sincere.

2. I find Antony incredibly genteel, first with Octavia in scene 2. He doesn't love her, we know, but treats her with respect. And then at the end of the act, while he seems convinced that he has lost the battle to Ceasar becuase of Cleo actions, he treats her tenderly and with love (after he blows his fuse).

I wonder whether these two parts might be connected:
Caesar married his beloved sister to Antony in order to settle their formal reconciliation, although he was well aware of the latter being still drawn to Cleopatra, an arrangement which is bound to make his sister unhappy by and by. As follows, Antony faces the need to prepare for war against Caesar, and grants his wife everything she needs to travel back to Rome as a mediator between the two men she's devoted to. Octavia leaves and is received by her brother as a castaway (III,6), although she herself does not feel this way, but Caesar persists:

OCTAVIA:
Is it so, sir ?

CAESAR:
Most certain. Sister, welcome: pray you,
Be ever know to patience: my dear'st sister!
Now that adulterous Antony has obviously spurned his wife and Caesar's sister, has not Caesar all the more a reason to prepare for battle ?

Virgil

12-23-2006, 04:38 PM

Now that adulterous Antony has obviously spurned his wife and Caesar's sister, has not Caesar all the more a reason to prepare for battle ?

Yes. I've read in someone's criticism that he believed that Ceasar had planned it so he could find a rationale to attack Antony. I'm not so sure. I believed Ceasar was looking to cement their union with the offer of Octavia in that scene where they decide this. (Was that Actii, scene 1?) But he certainly jumps on it when Octavia is spurned. And frankly that too is ambiguous. Was she spurned? So much of Act III seems opaque.

Virgil

12-24-2006, 01:10 PM

I'm going to continue. I found Scene 13 of Act III very interesting.

We see the psychological drama of an aging hero who has lost and feels it. Antony to compensate for his military failure challenges the "boy" Ceasar to a duel.

MARK ANTONY
To him again: tell him he wears the rose
Of youth upon him; from which the world should note
Something particular: his coin, ships, legions,
May be a coward's; whose ministers would prevail
Under the service of a child as soon
As i' the command of Caesar: I dare him therefore
To lay his gay comparisons apart,
And answer me declined, sword against sword,
Ourselves alone. I'll write it: follow me.

And later in the scene he chastises Ceasar's messenger for trying to lure Cleo away from him:

MARK ANTONY
Approach, there! Ah, you kite! Now, gods
and devils!
Authority melts from me: of late, when I cried 'Ho!'
Like boys unto a muss, kings would start forth,
And cry 'Your will?' Have you no ears? I am
Antony yet.
"I am Antony yet." is the cry of a older man feeling his potency being dissipated. The psychology that Shakespeare creates is an over compensation of exertion of power (he has the man whipped) and self-aggrandizing emotion:

MARK ANTONY
...
Re-enter Attendants with THYREUS

Is he whipp'd?

First Attendant
Soundly, my lord.

MARK ANTONY
Cried he? and begg'd a' pardon?

First Attendant
He did ask favour.

MARK ANTONY
If that thy father live, let him repent
Thou wast not made his daughter; and be thou sorry
To follow Caesar in his triumph, since
Thou hast been whipp'd for following him: henceforth
The white hand of a lady fever thee,
Shake thou to look on 't. Get thee back to Caesar,
Tell him thy entertainment: look, thou say
He makes me angry with him; for he seems
Proud and disdainful, harping on what I am,
Not what he knew I was: he makes me angry;
And at this time most easy 'tis to do't,
When my good stars, that were my former guides,
Have empty left their orbs, and shot their fires
Into the abysm of hell. If he mislike
My speech and what is done, tell him he has
Hipparchus, my enfranched bondman, whom
He may at pleasure whip, or hang, or torture,
As he shall like, to quit me: urge it thou:
Hence with thy stripes, begone!
Twice he says "he makes me angry." And notice how different he speaks to Cleo. He rails at her in a supercilios manner, unlike that of Act I where she lorded over him. He tells her "You have been a boggler ever" and "I found you as a morsel cold upon dead Ceasar's trencher; nay, you were a fragment of Gneaus Pompey's".

And counterpointing this self-agrrandizement are Enobarbus's comments:

DOMITIUS ENOBARBUS
[Aside] Yes, like enough, high-battled Caesar will
Unstate his happiness, and be staged to the show,
Against a sworder! I see men's judgments are
A parcel of their fortunes; and things outward
Do draw the inward quality after them,
To suffer all alike. That he should dream,
Knowing all measures, the full Caesar will
Answer his emptiness! Caesar, thou hast subdued
His judgment too.
and

DOMITIUS ENOBARBUS
[Aside] Mine honesty and I begin to square.
The loyalty well held to fools does make
Our faith mere folly: yet he that can endure
To follow with allegiance a fall'n lord
Does conquer him that did his master conquer
And earns a place i' the story.
and

DOMITIUS ENOBARBUS
Now he'll outstare the lightning. To be furious,
Is to be frighted out of fear; and in that mood
The dove will peck the estridge; and I see still,
A diminution in our captain's brain
Restores his heart: when valour preys on reason,
It eats the sword it fights with. I will seek
Some way to leave him.

In some respect Enobarbus functions here similarly as Thersites in Troilus and Cressida. However, while everyone can clearly characterize Thersites as cynical, I don't think that Enobarbus is cynical here. I would characterize them as realistic. Antony's motives are not striving to reach for some unachievable idealism from which a deflating cynacism is required; Antony's is trying to reach back to what he once was, from which a deflating realism counterpoints nicely.

ShoutGrace

12-26-2006, 09:55 PM

I think that this scene is perhaps best appreciated as the first appearance of the word "S A U C Y" in the play.

Were't twenty of the greatest tributaries
That do acknowledge Caesar, should I find them
So saucy with the hand of she here,--what's her name,
Since she was Cleopatra?

Only posted that for you, Brit and Mar. ;)

Virgil

12-26-2006, 09:59 PM

I think that this scene is perhaps best appreciated as the first appearance of the word "S A U C Y" in the play.

Only posted that for you, Brit and Mar. ;)

Oh, I thought I was actually getting someone to contribute to this discussion. It feels lonely here. :(

ShoutGrace

12-26-2006, 10:01 PM

I contributed. *indignant* I meant what I said, "saucy" is important. :D

I've been busying myself with devotional readings and Christmas obligations. I'll try sometime soon, Virgil.

Schokokeks

12-27-2006, 04:53 AM

Oh, I thought I was actually getting someone to contribute to this discussion. It feels lonely here. :(
Really, Virgil, your last post was on Christmas Eve, people might be enjoying the few holidays and spending some time off the computer :p.

I'll be with you again when I can reread the scenes in my copy at home - I'm at my parents' and there's looooads of strange relatives around :rolleyes:

Schokokeks

12-28-2006, 06:51 AM

So now, relatives gone, house in a mess :D. *hands plate with left-over Christmas cookies over to Virgil*

But he certainly jumps on it when Octavia is spurned. And frankly that too is ambiguous. Was she spurned? So much of Act III seems opaque.
I don't think she was spurned, and she herself doesn't experience her returning to Rome in that way, although her brother mentions it to her. Octavia is rather torn between two men she belongs to. However Antony very readily sends her back to Rome, and doesn't seem to think about the consequences of how this move might be interpreted by others, e.g. as him spurning his newly-wed wife. If I remember correctly, in real history Antony and Octavia were married and stayed together for several years and even had children. But Willy had to cut that down a bit, of course, as he has already undertaken to cover a span of some 10 years.

Schokokeks

12-28-2006, 07:36 AM

And notice how different he speaks to Cleo. He rails at her in a supercilios manner, unlike that of Act I where she lorded over him. He tells her "You have been a boggler ever" and "I found you as a morsel cold upon dead Ceasar's trencher; nay, you were a fragment of Gneaus Pompey's".
However, since Cleo now will not turn over to Caesar's side and Antony is regaining courage (a dead-cat bounce ?), the two lovers' fate is again presented as interwoven:

ANT:
...
I and my sword will earn our chronicle:
There's hope in it yet.

CLEO:
That's my brave lord!

ANT:...

CLEO:
It is my birth-day:
I had thought to have held it poor: but since my lord
Is Antony again, I will be Cleopatra.

ANT:
We will yet do well.

However, while everyone can clearly characterize Thersites as cynical, I don't think that Enobarbus is cynical here. I would characterize them as realistic.
That's a good point. To me, his comments appear somewhat Kantian, deploring and mocking Antony's shifted notion of reason and proper judgement, that in the end will cause his ship to sink and his crew to drown with him:

...Antony only, that would make his will
Lord of his reason ...
The itch of his affections should not then
Have nicked his captainship ...
and

... I see men's judgments are
A parcel of their fortunes ...
... Caesar, thou hast subdued his judgment, too.
For me, Enobarbus lost much of his position as a serio-comic observer when standing outside Caesar's camp and comtemplating his treason. Here, the events directly involve and concern him. No one can give him advice now, nor can he counsel anyone anymore, finally committing suicide.

Schokokeks

12-28-2006, 07:38 AM

I meant what I said, "saucy" is important. :D
Oh dear, I must have overlooked that. Thank you for pointing out :nod: *adds "saucy" to her English vocabulary* :D

Virgil

12-28-2006, 12:34 PM

(a dead-cat bounce ?)

:lol: Where did you learn that phrase? I didn't think anyone outside the US used it, not even in England. Do the English use it? I would love to know. I used to hate that phrase because it seemed so insensitive to poor kittys, but it has a punch, doesn't it? ;)

For me, Enobarbus lost much of his position as a serio-comic observer when standing outside Caesar's camp and comtemplating his treason. Here, the events directly involve and concern him. No one can give him advice now, nor can he counsel anyone anymore, finally committing suicide.
His suicide seems problematic to me. Where did it come from? He loves life and pleasure just as much as Antony, and he even runs off to save his neck, and then decides to end it all. It seems more like Shakespeare was trying to get rid of the character.

So now, relatives gone, house in a mess :D. *hands plate with left-over Christmas cookies over to Virgil*

I don't think she was spurned, and she herself doesn't experience her returning to Rome in that way, although her brother mentions it to her. Octavia is rather torn between two men she belongs to. However Antony very readily sends her back to Rome, and doesn't seem to think about the consequences of how this move might be interpreted by others, e.g. as him spurning his newly-wed wife. If I remember correctly, in real history Antony and Octavia were married and stayed together for several years and even had children. But Willy had to cut that down a bit, of course, as he has already undertaken to cover a span of some 10 years.

Thank you for the cookies. :D Hope you enjoyed the holidays. Yes, it probably comes across a little different in the play than it must have been in real life. You raise an interesting question. Does Antony realize the consequences of sending Octavia to Rome? You know I'm not sure. One can make an arguement either way. This whole section of the play as I've said above somewhere is ambiguous.

Virgil

12-29-2006, 01:29 AM

Three observations of Act IV

(1) One of the odd things about Act IV is how it repeats Act III. Ceasar's and Antony's armies engage, Antony winning on land and then another sea battle, and again the Egyptians abandon Antony, and Antony loses. What is the significance of the repetition? And again the details are vague and ambiguous. And again Antony blames Cleopatra, and another argument ensues. We've seen this all in the previous act.

(2) Another irony is Antony's frequent calling of his attendant, Eros. From the encyclopedia:

Eros, the Greek god of love and sexual desire (the word eros, which is found in the Iliad by Homer, is a common noun meaning sexual desire). He was also worshiped as a fertility god, believed to be a contemporary of the primeval Chaos, which makes Eros one of the oldest gods. In the Dionysian Mysteries Eros is referred to as "protagonus", the first born. But there are many variations to whom the parents of Eros really where. According to Aristophanes (Birds) he was born from Erebus and Nyx (Night); in later mythology Eros is the offspring of Aphrodite and Ares. Yet in the Theogony, the epic poem written by Hesiod, it mentions a typified Eros as being an attendant of Aphrodite, but not her son. Another legend says that he was the son of Iris and Zephyrus. http://www.pantheon.org/articles/e/eros.html

The name is so appropriate. Love and war and desire. It's as if Antony is calling his diety and the roots of his downfall. It echoes with pathos.

(3) Another observation is how the minor characters get dumped and new take their place without real distinction. Enobarbus starts the play, then replaced by Scarus and Eros, only to be replaced by Diomedes and Decretas.

Ceasar's camp also undergoes personnel changes. Dolabella, Maecenas, Gallus, and Proculeious just pop into the play at the end. Why does Shakespeare do this. He could have kept the same characters throughout.

Virgil

12-30-2006, 11:50 AM

I think the answers to the several questions I raised in the post above (the personnel changes of the secondary characters and the ambiguities of acts 3 &4) can be answered in this exchange in Act IV between Antony and Eros. I would consider this Anotny's epiphany, perhaps the first of a series of climaxes to the play.

MARK ANTONY
Eros, thou yet behold'st me?

EROS
Ay, noble lord.

MARK ANTONY
Sometimes we see a cloud that's dragonish;
A vapour sometime like a bear or lion,
A tower'd citadel, a pendent rock,
A forked mountain, or blue promontory
With trees upon't, that nod unto the world,
And mock our eyes with air: thou hast seen
these signs;
They are black vesper's pageants.

EROS
Ay, my lord,

MARK ANTONY
That which is now a horse, even with a thought
The rack dislimns, and makes it indistinct,
As water is in water.

EROS
It does, my lord.

MARK ANTONY
My good knave Eros, now thy captain is
Even such a body: here I am Antony:
Yet cannot hold this visible shape, my knave.
I made these wars for Egypt: and the queen,--
Whose heart I thought I had, for she had mine;
Which whilst it was mine had annex'd unto't
A million more, now lost,--she, Eros, has
Pack'd cards with Caesar, and false-play'd my glory
Unto an enemy's triumph.
Nay, weep not, gentle Eros; there is left us
Ourselves to end ourselves.

The fluidity of life, the changing shapes, the world in flux, is what dawns on Antony in his acknowledgement of defeat. Life is not as stable as one envisions. Forces greater than oneself have great infleuence on one's life and love. And so Shakespeare I believe astheitically portrays that with the ambiguities of the drama, the shifting fortunes of war, and the ever changing characters through the action. "As water is water", coordinates with the navel defeats.

Schokokeks

12-30-2006, 11:53 AM

:lol: Where did you learn that phrase? I didn't think anyone outside the US used it, not even in England. Do the English use it? I would love to know. I used to hate that phrase because it seemed so insensitive to poor kittys, but it has a punch, doesn't it? ;)
Yes, it has :D. I don't know whether the English use it, but the Germans do ;). Here it comes from the stock-market jargon (that would explain why it is indeed insensitive :p), where it is used to describe the spontaneous short-lasting rise of an exchange-price that has been falling for a long period of time before, and continues to do so after the dead-cat bounce (just wanted to use that once more :D).

His suicide seems problematic to me. Where did it come from? He loves life and pleasure just as much as Antony, and he even runs off to save his neck, and then decides to end it all. It seems more like Shakespeare was trying to get rid of the character.
To me it seems like a foreshadowing of the tragedy that is to befall Antony, who has been associated with Eno very closely through the latter's comments on his behaviour before his defection.
But, as you said, his suicide could also be the only solution Willy saw to somehow finalise that character. It would have been difficult to keep up his role after Caesar's victory.

Virgil

12-30-2006, 11:56 AM

Yes, it has :D. I don't know whether the English use it, but the Germans do ;). Here it comes from the stock-market jargon (that would explain why it is indeed insensitive :p), where it is used to describe the spontaneous short-lasting rise of an exchange-price that has been falling for a long period of time before, and continues to do so after the dead-cat bounce (just wanted to use that once more :D).

Yes, that's where it comes from here too. Probably started on wall street.

To me it seems like a foreshadowing of the tragedy that is to befall Antony, who has been associated with Eno very closely through the latter's comments on his behaviour before his defection.
But, as you said, his suicide could also be the only solution Willy saw to somehow finalise that character. It would have been difficult to keep up his role after Caesar's victory.
Yes I agree. Foreshadows all the suicides. But I still feel its overly manipulated. But that's just my feeling.

Hey I posted one just above at almost the same time you just posted, so you may miss it.

Schokokeks

12-30-2006, 12:05 PM

(2) Another irony is Antony's frequent calling of his attendant, Eros. The name is so appropriate. Love and war and desire. It's as if Antony is calling his diety and the roots of his downfall. It echoes with pathos.
In general, I don't believe too much in the significance of "speaking names", (Diomedes for instance means "clever as a God", and I wouldn't say this of any importance, but rather a fashionable name), but here I think this is indeed quite ironic. Though I think I read somewhere that Eros was quite a common name at the period, too, but I'm not sure.
After all, Eros presented a very strong "love", affection and faith when killing himself instead of following Antony's command to kill his lord.

(3) Another observation is how the minor characters get dumped and new take their place without real distinction.Why does Shakespeare do this. He could have kept the same characters throughout.
Good question ! Hmm...maybe it is symbolic: a new world-order is being established with Caesar's triumph over Cleo's/Antony's Eastern realm, and old actors on both sides have to make space for new ones, though after all, as you said, they're not much different.

I think Willy was quite daring here in this act, challenging the Aristotelean principle when letting one of the heros die in the second-to-last act.

Virgil

12-30-2006, 12:15 PM

In general, I don't believe too much in the significance of "speaking names", (Diomedes for instance means "clever as a God", and I wouldn't say this of any importance, but rather a fashionable name), but here I think this is indeed quite ironic. Though I think I read somewhere that Eros was quite a common name at the period, too, but I'm not sure.
After all, Eros presented a very strong "love", affection and faith when killing himself instead of following Antony's command to kill his lord.

Yes. I have an audio version and DVD version, and in both the actor who plays Antony speaks the Eros name with resonance, so that it seems to echoe. EHH-ROOOS, EHH-ROOS. And I am surprised at how often Shakespeare has Antony call it out. Many times it seems just for the sake of getting the name out.

Good question ! Hmm...maybe it is symbolic: a new world-order is being established with Caesar's triumph over Cleo's/Antony's Eastern realm, and old actors on both sides have to make space for new ones, though after all, as you said, they're not much different.

I think Willy was quite daring here in this act, challenging the Aristotelean principle when letting one of the heros die in the second-to-last act.
You may have missed my latest post on this. I entered it as you were replying and may not have looked back. Check my post above, the first one for today where I quote Antony and the fluidity of the clouds. Yes I agree it challenges the Aristoelean principle of drama.

Virgil

01-03-2007, 01:03 AM

His [Enobarbas] suicide seems problematic to me. Where did it come from? He loves life and pleasure just as much as Antony, and he even runs off to save his neck, and then decides to end it all. It seems more like Shakespeare was trying to get rid of the character.

To me it seems like a foreshadowing of the tragedy that is to befall Antony, who has been associated with Eno very closely through the latter's comments on his behaviour before his defection.
But, as you said, his suicide could also be the only solution Willy saw to somehow finalise that character. It would have been difficult to keep up his role after Caesar's victory.
It's more than foreshadowing; it's contrast. Enobarbas's suicide in a lowly ditch and Antony's botched suicide contrast with Cleopatra's magnificent, sublime, transcendent suicide which serves as the play's climax. Their lowly suicides elevates hers. This is her suicide finale. "Husband I come." "I am fire and air." "Take the last warmth of my lips." "With thy sharp teeth this knot intrinsicate/Of life at once untie." "Peace, peace!"

CLEOPATRA
Give me my robe, put on my crown; I have
Immortal longings in me: now no more
The juice of Egypt's grape shall moist this lip:
Yare, yare, good Iras; quick. Methinks I hear
Antony call; I see him rouse himself
To praise my noble act; I hear him mock
The luck of Caesar, which the gods give men
To excuse their after wrath: husband, I come:
Now to that name my courage prove my title!
I am fire and air; my other elements
I give to baser life. So; have you done?
Come then, and take the last warmth of my lips.
Farewell, kind Charmian; Iras, long farewell.

Kisses them. IRAS falls and dies

Have I the aspic in my lips? Dost fall?
If thou and nature can so gently part,
The stroke of death is as a lover's pinch,
Which hurts, and is desired. Dost thou lie still?
If thus thou vanishest, thou tell'st the world
It is not worth leave-taking.

CHARMIAN
Dissolve, thick cloud, and rain; that I may say,
The gods themselves do weep!

CLEOPATRA
This proves me base:
If she first meet the curled Antony,
He'll make demand of her, and spend that kiss
Which is my heaven to have. Come, thou
mortal wretch,

To an asp, which she applies to her breast

With thy sharp teeth this knot intrinsicate
Of life at once untie: poor venomous fool
Be angry, and dispatch. O, couldst thou speak,
That I might hear thee call great Caesar ***
Unpolicied!

CHARMIAN
O eastern star!

CLEOPATRA
Peace, peace!
Dost thou not see my baby at my breast,
That sucks the nurse asleep?

CHARMIAN
O, break! O, break!

CLEOPATRA
As sweet as balm, as soft as air, as gentle,--
O Antony!--Nay, I will take thee too.

Applying another asp to her arm

What should I stay--

Dies

What an ending. It is magnificent to see this acted out, to watch Cleopatra take the asp and place it on her breast and slowly die and be frozen in place for the remainder of the scene, in queenly robes and crown. Her words are spoken so slowly and paced and whispered. It is all so ethereal.

I read this play once before and loved it then. Now after this second very detailed reading, I love it even more. I have more to say. I think I even now understand what the role of that mysterious Act II Scene 7 (the drunken scene) is to the play. But we shall wait for more people to catch up.

Schokokeks

01-05-2007, 08:47 AM

But we shall wait for more people to catch up.
Yeah, me for example :rolleyes:. I am back at university, where I don't have internet access in my flat, which is annoying, but should be fixed in a couple of days.
I just wanted to say that it's huuugely enriching to read your analysis and discuss with you, Virgil :nod: ! Although I can't contribute as much as I would like to, due to the above technical difficulties and lack of time. But I'll be back. Please do not forget what you meant to say about the drinking scene, I would love to here that soon !

Virgil

01-07-2007, 09:11 PM

CLEOPATRA
Noblest of men, woo't die?
Hast thou no care of me? shall I abide
In this dull world, which in thy absence is
No better than a sty? O, see, my women,

MARK ANTONY dies

The crown o' the earth doth melt. My lord!
O, wither'd is the garland of the war,
The soldier's pole is fall'n: young boys and girls
Are level now with men; the odds is gone,
And there is nothing left remarkable
Beneath the visiting moon.
Cleopatra''s speech at Antony's death. I find this interesting for many reasons. Let me just concentrate on one for now. Where in the play have we seen Antony's brilliance? Not once. In fact he has screwed everything up from the very beginning of the play. Allowed his first wife to fight Ceasar while he was in Egypt, agrees to marry Octavia, sends Octavia back to Ceasar, loses the first navel battle, loses the second navel battle, and screws up his suicide. He even advices Cleopatra to trust Proculeius and not trust Donabella, when it turns out she should do the opposite. Is there anything that Antony does right in the play? I can't think of anything. So is he really as valiant and indomitable as Cleo makes him out? Yes, because others vouch for it too, even Ceasar himself. So why dos Shakespeare rhetorically praise his ability but continuously have him botch things? In other Shakespeare tragidies the fallen hero shows his greatness in the play: Othello, MacBeth, Hamlet.

Two possibilities that I can think of as to why:
1) Perhaps Cleopatra is the central hero of the play and Antony is an important but ancillary character that creates the situation for her fall. Like Iago or Desdamona to Othello. Antony's screw ups bring down Cleopatra who has fixed her fate to him.
2) The tragic hero is not one person but both Antony and Cleopatra as a tandum. But this is very different than Romeo and Juliet. There the two die together. The love that Cleo has for Antony transcends Antony's collapse. It shows how their love is real.

Other thoughts?