"Buster's Gift" and "Russ the Provider"

[Jean-Baptiste]

I would like some criticism on these two stories that I've written. Any comments on either (positive or otherwise) would be appreciated. Above all, I hope that you will enjoy the reading of them as much as I enjoyed the writing.

[Jean-Baptiste]

Really? :confused: Nobody has anything to say about them? :( Even to tell me that they're boring and pointless? :bawling:

:idea: I've written an introduction to them, if it helps to know my intentions. It is posted in my blog.

[AdW2356]

Your writing is head heavy, too analytical, while there is not enough emotion present, either in the story or the very sentences themselves.

I think your writing will benefit from your growing closer to your heart.

Or become a scientist. :crash:

[Jean-Baptiste]

Okay. Could you repeat that? Wait a minute. Okay.

Uhuh, Mixture one part treacle with three parts yummy lick-it-up sugary sweetness, uhuh, a generous helping of simpering drivel, yeah, and five ounces blood-tears. Got it.


Or become a scientist. :crash:

Well, I guess I'm in the wrong forums. So long. :wave:

[zanna]

Hey, now. Don't go leavin' us on account of one person that didn't appreciate your style! I did like the stories. Made me think of sepia-toned photographs, and long, hot, summer days. The mood seemed fitting, though. It was very delibrate. You do very well painting pictures with your descriptions, I could "see" everything in my head. When's the next one? :)

[Jean-Baptiste]

That's very kind of you, zanna. I'm flattered! I didn't mean it. About leaving, I didn't meant it. I think, though, that I may have been too hard on the critique above. I hope I didn't drive AdW away; I was just horsin' around. :p

The next one...when I get around to it. I've got a few more stories rolling around in my head. One of them I've been thinking of starting soon; a couple of others are yet vague ideas--inchoate stories. They're all just practice anyway, right? Didn't someone say we're all just practicing anyway? Maybe I made that up. :goof:

Thanks so much for your comments. :)

[SleepyWitch]

hey Jean, I've read Russ, but haven't got around to reading your other story yet.

Your writing is head heavy, too analytical, while there is not enough emotion present, either in the story or the very sentences themselves.
I don't agree with that at all, but there are some changes I'd suggest.

Alright, Thel. C’n I say “I love you,” over the telephone?
this seems a bit unrealistic. Even if the guy has never used a telephone before, I don't think he'd waste much er.. cognitive effort on this question :) I think he'd either blurtit lut or forget to say it.
hum, there was some passage I was going to comment on but I can't find it now.. Will have to read the story again...

there are two more things, though.
1. we only get to see Russ' at home where Ethel does everything for him. But seeing as he is a logger, I should think he is more independent and competent when it comes to his work? Could you bring out this contrast more? E.g. you could open the story with a scene showing Russ at work and then he goes home and is totally different?
2. it's not always clear to me exactly how aware he is of his lack of self-reliance. I suppose the ending is meant to come as a shock to him? Like he realizes he will have to take on Ethel's role now? If that's the case, then he's maybe a bit too aware of his weaknesses throughout the story.

I know he's supposed to become gradually more independent but I think it might be a bit too rushed???
I know what kind of character you have in mind (my dad is like that :) ), but I'm not sure I'd get it if I didn't know already ;)
heehee, give me some time to read it again :)

[Adolescent09]

It might just be me, but I like stories with heavy description, some imagery.. analogies.. Your first story (the only one I had time to read) has an explicit style; smooth and understandable but I'm not sure if it flows correctly. I think more description would help.. but hey, maybe people don't like reading pages and pages of description. Perhaps your using a whole new style that is unknown to me. -----Sorry I couldn't say much.

[SleepyWitch]

It might just be me, but I like stories with heavy description, some imagery.. analogies.. Your first story (the only one I had time to read) has an explicit style; smooth and understandable but I'm not sure if it flows correctly. I think more description would help.. but hey, maybe people don't like reading pages and pages of description. Perhaps your using a whole new style that is unknown to me. -----Sorry I couldn't say much.
i agree with Adolescent there. A little more descpription would be helpful. It doesn't need to be pages and pages, only a little bit more.


They're all just practice anyway, right? Didn't someone say we're all just practicing anyway? Maybe I made that up
heeeheee, thanks for bringing that up.. I thought about it the other day. I suppose the answer to that question depends on what you have in mind: if you want to become that great writer and write that magnum opus one day, it's yes.
As for me, I don't like the idea of practicing at all :) I mean, I don't mind reworking my stories, but I'm pretty sure I'll never be that great writer and never write that great book. I want my stories to be good now:bawling:

[Jean-Baptiste]

Wow! Thanks for your critique, Sleepy! Those are all very helpful suggestions. That thing about the telephone, I had some misgivings. I agree that he would not say it either way.
And, yes, I agree that Russ is only presented from one angle, which does detract from the overall impression of him. I did that for several reasons. One was that I was too lazy to develop the other side of his character, and wished to leave it assumed. Another reason was that I simply didn't think of it (thanks for making the point). And the other reason was that I didn't think it mattered, as he's retired from that line of work, but I see your point that it does matter.
Your second point is excellent. It had not occurred to me. You're completely right; that's going to take some thinking; I'm not sure how to fix it, but it does need to be fixed.

Adolescent: I am aware that the description is lacking; it's not one of my strong points. I think I was influenced by a short story I read a while ago by Aldous Huxley (I don't remember the title, something about Tuscany I think) in which the first fifteen pages were entirely descriptions of the landscape. I actually didn't read the whole story; I was drowning in description and had to save myself. So I think my lack of description in these stories is an attempt to avoid this tragedy of Huxley's, but I over-compensated. I did add some descriptive things (you should have seen it at first). It was pointed out to me that Buster should at least be able to pick his parents out of a crowd; how can I argue with that? :lol:
I wonder if you could speculate more fully on this problem of flow that you point out. I'd really appreciate it.
Thanks for your input.:)

As for practice, Sleepy, I guess I'm always waiting around for "the real thing" to happen, and it's continually escaping me. :lol: I don't actually intend to be a writer, but I do want to know the ins and outs of stories--to know how they work. I guess that's what I mean by practice.

[Adolescent09]

Please keep in mind that I'm not exactly the best person to pick for making speculations on contemporary literature which tends not to be heavy on description and imagery. Most of the books I read are classic fiction/non-fiction but I will expound on my "not sure of flow" statement with just the first few pages (sorry, I don't have too much time on my hands..):
"Buster sits in the kitchen...." "He wonders at flickering lights...." "Begins to think of eyes as lights..." "Do lights have memories (which is a very interesting figurative perception)--- "Edna shakes the measuring cup.."

The first part is smooth and explicit; it doesn't jump into straight imagery which is not only good but effective...You also effectively bring Buster directly to his thoughts without implying that he's dreaming or being whimsical. You are putting Buster in a sort of time retrospect, but the part with the lights just does not seem to click (Hence let me make clear, I am not the best judge).

"It’s obvious from his grades, after five years in school, that he doesn’t have much intelligence. All he has going for him is Baseball, and he can’t even keep his head on that."

^^I'm not sure if it is just me but I never knew inept people who can't even seem to fathom the fundamentals of baseball were so imaginative? Since when was imagination and ignorance so diametrically linked?
I'll try to look up more statements which pose as flaws or appear disjointed to me.. but as for now, adios.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
In due consideration of my confessed naivete on this subject, do forgive me if I'm making myself look like an idiot by bringing up erroneous propositions...

[Jean-Baptiste]

Thanks for giving so much thought to this, Adolescent. I admit, if I'm understanding you correctly, that the first little bit of the story does not flow easily into the rest. It is choppy, the transition, that is. It was a lazy attempt at giving a solid account of Buster's mental habits, so that the reader doesn't fall into the trap of believing what Edna thinks to be true. The thing about his grades and baseball is an assumption made by Edna in an attempt to fit Buster into her ideal of a young boy; perhaps the structure of the writing there makes that vague; I'll try to think of some way to make it sound more like Edna and less like the narrator. I didn't mean for the reader to come to believe that Buster is stupid, but merely to understand how he is viewed by those closest to him. There should be enough first hand evidence for the reader to come to the proper conclusion about Buster's intellect, and therefore pick out the mistakes in Edna's well-meaning but entirely faulty judgement.

That first bit, again, is entirely disjointed. I'll try to think of ways of incorporating it into the story more. Do you think that something so simple as moving it to a different place in the story would be beneficial? Do you think that it is at all necessary, or could it simply be dispensed with?

Don't worry about erroneous propositions. I appreciate your thoughts.

[Adolescent09]

"There should be enough first hand evidence for the reader to come to the proper conclusion about Buster's intellect, and therefore pick out the mistakes in Edna's well-meaning but entirely faulty judgement."

You're right, there is enough first hand evidence. But the "baseball" statement sounds so much like the narrative that one is compelled to think that you are contradicting yourself, whereas if it is clearer that it is stated by Edna we realize that Buster is actually "special" without blatantly appearing so in public. That would be a very strong ground point which many people could relate to.

Nonetheless its a nice story.

[jon1jt]

i can't access your stories because whatever program you have them saved in is incompatible with my computer. why not just post them the old fashioned way, in this thread you started for them? :)

[JackShea]

Might I suggest something I learned after doing readings of some of my plays. Listen, try not to defend your work, and when it comes to praise or criticism...read Kipling:

"If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same."

Best,

Jack

[Jean-Baptiste]

Jon: My stories are posted in my blog (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/blogs/viewblog.php?userid=16931) also.

Jack: I think this is good advice, though I don't think I've been all that defensive of my writing. There have been many valuable points made about my stories in this thread, and barring that reply to AdW (which was all in fun, and I do regret if I was too harsh) I have made more of an effort to seek expansion on other's criticisms than to discourage them, in an attempt to come to a full realization of the point being made. Listening passively is no helpmate of improvement, just as simple defense is worthless--but rooting out the actual point and addressing it directly I see as entirely beneficial. I certainly hope that Sleepy, Adolescent, and Zanna do not feel as though I've put up a defense by asking that they explain their positions. I appreciate very much their valuable opinions--they are the readers, of course. Of course, I'm puting up a defense for you, but this is not about my writing. You obviously do think that I've been uncommonly defensive of my writing, so I'd appreciate it if you'd select a passage from the thread that exemplifies your stance. I will appologize, as I know that that is not the purpose of peer review.

[JackShea]

"You obviously do think that I've been uncommonly defensive of my writing."

Hello Jean-Baptiste: I do not 'obviously' think anything. Just an observation I use when dealing with criticism. I neither think you are offensive nor defensive in regard to your writing. Merely a suggestion on my part to use or not? And now to read your work...Best regards...Jack

[Jean-Baptiste]

Alright, thanks, Jack. :)

[Silvia]

well, Giovan-Battista, I think your short story is really GREZZA, as a friend of mine would say, which litteraly means "rough" but is actually untranslatable in the way he intends it....
anyway, in order to reassure you, it has a positive meaning, I believe, since he uses it to stress that he finds something incredibly good!!!
and this is exactly how I feel about Buster's Gift.
I am used to focusing my attention on details(and I'm not saying I'm pedant, it is just something which happens when I read books..) and what I like the most about your style are the repetitions. Of sentences, of verbs, of situations, of questions. I love them when I understand they are put there for some reason by the writer.
They help you get the point and they arouse curiosity.
The other thing I liked is your use of...mmm...I looked it up in the dictionary but I couldn't find the English for "paranomasia"..perhaps it sounds similar...anyway, it's when you put together words which sound or look pretty much the same but have different meanings.
I know these things may seem stupid or maybe you didn't mean them, but they are signs of talent to me!
But I'm leaving out the most important element: the story itself.
It is very complex in the plainness of its subject, in my opinion.
and it's very enjoiable too in the smooth proceeding of the event.
The way you describe Buster's gestures and mental schemes.
The way we get to know him simply through his rolling the pin across the table.
Through the opinion the others have of him.
I think it's wonderful.
silvia

I tried to post this comment in your blog but I couldn't...I still have to get used to the site!:D

[Jean-Baptiste]

Thank you very much, Silvia! You say such lovely things. I'm glad you liked it! Yes, I am quite a fan of repetition, and tried to incorporate a bit of it into the story. I wonder if you'd be willing to point out an instance of what you're considering paranomasia. I'm pretty sure I know what you mean, but I'd appreciate knowing what you liked about this. I'm glad you thought there was a "smooth proceeding of event." I glad you thought there were events at all. ;) :lol: I really am enheartened by your glowing critique. Thank you! :D

[Silvia]

Edna shakes the measuring cup full of flour over the worn industrial mixer; the flour falls in clumps,

through that thought he endeavors to search out all previous thoughts

Edna, concerned for the consistency of the dough that she’s mixing, shrugs her shoulder,
ok..these are the first things I found!
I'm qite sure they are examples of paranomasia: full of flour, the flour falls; through that thought; shrugs her shoulders......different words that looks or sound pretty much the same!!
Even if, to be completely honest, paranomasia is more when you have the same words, like in Dante's Inferno "ch'i' fui per ritornar più volte volto" where volte means times and volto means turned round...do you know what's the English name for this?
Of course I think there's an event in your story...it's Buster realising he has to stop thinking about anything which is not baseball; it's Buster trying to make his father happy; it's Buster losing.

[Silvia]

Edna shakes the measuring cup full of flour over the worn industrial mixer; the flour falls in clumps,

through that thought he endeavors to search out all previous thoughts

Edna, concerned for the consistency of the dough that she’s mixing, shrugs her shoulder,
ok..these are the first things I found!
I'm qite sure they are examples of paranomasia: full of flour, the flour falls; through that thought; shrugs her shoulders......different words that looks or sound pretty much the same!!
Even if, to be completely honest, paranomasia is more when you have the same words, like in Dante's Inferno "ch'i' fui per ritornar più volte volto" where volte means times and volto means turned round...do you know what's the English name for this?
Of course I think there's an event in your story...it's Buster realising he has to stop thinking about anything which is not baseball; it's Buster trying to make his father happy; it's Buster losing.

[07loneil]

First, let me say, I thought it was unique and interesting. I thought that your way of presenting dialouge was confusing. I would have used the traditional way- quotation marks and letting us know who said it. It is hard to follow the long dialogues. however, you created very real and deep characters. Your stories are kind of hypnotizing. Previous posts have dissaproved of your analytical take on their minds, but I like it! The imagry is great and vivid. i felt like I was there, and like you creatied a world. It was kind of detatched, like someone telling a story. I really got the feel for the setting! It has a nice flow, and lifelike characters. Keep up the good work!

[Jean-Baptiste]

I really appreciate your comments, 07. Thank you! About the dialogue, I was trying to emulate the style of some of the British Modernist writers, like Virginia Woolf and James Joyce, who didn't think it necessary to always specify the speaker, or use quotation marks. I think the spoken phrases ought to be apparent and distinct enough from mere thoughts, and the character speaking should also be apparent. There are a couple of places where I found it necessary, for clarity, to specify which character is speaking, but for the most part the context should make it apparent. I also think this style calls a greater level of concentration to the story, on the part of both the reader and the writer. The writer has to choose statements and forms carefully to make the distinctions apparent, and the reader has to absorb those cues. Of course, there are always instances where there is the possibility that a piece of dialogue could have been uttered by more than one of the characters, such as when there are three or more characters interacting in a scene, and then it needs to be stated which of them is speaking--but for the most part, especially in these stories, there are only two characters in any given scene, and therefore the context should point out the one that is necessarily speaking.
Anyway, I'm glad you like them! :D Your comments are very encouraging. Again, thank you. And welcome to the forums! I hope to see you around here often.

Silvia: Sorry I haven't replied to your recent comments yet. I've been neglecting the forums too much these days, and only skim through the new posts when I get a chance, so I missed this. I believe this is called alliteration that you're pointing out. I didn't necessarily intend for it to happen--but if you liked it, I'll take full credit. :p "Buster losing" I like that; that's a very good summation. :)

[Sir Dovesinn]

about 'Russ the Provider'.
It has something, your story.
I laught once. I read it all.
But the opening dialog is definitly too long. Appears unreal and tiresome. Such a long conversation about daily affairs, without pauses, or anything...
One would stop in a time to breath or smth, light a cigarette, go over something, be distracted of a draft, a fly... , some questions would remain without answer..
This dialog looks like this:
1
2
1
2
1
2
1
2
1
2...
Inr oder to appear real it must have variation.

[Jean-Baptiste]

Thank you, Sir. I appreciate your input. Yes, it does march right along at first. Thanks for the suggestions. I'd go with the lighting of a cigarette, but my characters don't seem to have the habit of smoking. :p Anyway, thank you for reading my story. :)

[Adolescent09]

Long dialogue doesn't exactly pose as superficial. Some of the dialogue in The Brother's Karamazov is three pages long and to me is the most blatantly realistic I've ever seen. More often than not many attributes can be identified with a character through dialogue rather than physical and mental description.

Well---perhaps you've construed it differently, but I like lengthy dialogue :D I thought they were both great Jean.

[Jean-Baptiste]

Thank you, Adolescent! Yes, I agree with your thoughts on dialogue. Thanks for reading both of my stories. That's nice to hear. :D

[aeroport]

I've just finished reading this story and a few things - or, rather, one thing, in several forms - stand(s) out to me just presently.
Namely that, for a ten-page, double-spaced Word document (what might be called a "sketch"), you've inserted a good deal of subtlety. I've not gone through and analyzed every little thing for some larger significance, so perhaps I'm missing some things still, but there are some very telling lines in this piece.
It is clear that Buster and Edna hold two distinct types of intelligence - i.e., the presence of it and the absence of it, respectively. :D I mean to say, Edna is essentially incapable of making her own judgments: she repeatedly refers to what Buster's father says - she cannot even say, for herself, that she knows he has talent. She "convinces herself" based on the mere fact that he is not concentrating on his school work, and because she knows his father thinks so. This is made quite clear earlier with her line about blasphemy - there we have dependence on another source for judgments.
Buster, meanwhile, is skeptical of such things, wondering whether one should put "to the test" ideas of having talent before believing them.
"He has been thinking that baseballs are made perfectly for what they have to do."
As, we see, are baseball players.

"He begins to imagine himself being a robot, programmed only to play this game; he squashes that thought too, realizing that it will distract him."
Quite effective.

"That teacher of yours just doesn’t know talent when she sees it."
More irony. I love it!

"Edna lifts the towel over the bread that she’s raising. She presses two fingers halfway into the soft mass, hoping that her impression will remain."
The story is kind of all about people trying to make an impression on him - the father with making him a good player, his mother with baking, his teachers, obviously; and, perhaps a bit more deeply, Edna seems to be trying to teach him to be content with being essentially a robot, as we see she is towards the end.

My only somewhat negative comment at the moment is this: “weighing the effect of the lack of the influence of gravity” is a cool idea, and quite appropriate, but the phrasing could be cleaned up slightly. Leans a bit on the "of the"s.

I look forward to reading the other when I have time. I'm sure I'll find something else to say about this one soon, though. Let me say, for the moment, that I am impressed.

[Jean-Baptiste]

I'm so pleased with everything you say, Jamesian! Thanks for reading my story. I haven't talked to you in quite some time. Is this how you've been spending Spring break, reading short stories? Me too. I'm glad you picked one of mine. Yes, if you find more to say about this, please send it along. As for installing subtleties into this story, I think I was simply starting from a solid foundation--and the subtleties just appeared where they were needed. Please tell me if there's a possibility that they could sound a bit contrived. I like to think that the subtleties are merely inherent in the story, but yes, there was a good deal of thought put into fulfilling the central idea. As for analyzing every detail, I would hope that the little details do aid the whole in such a way that it is unnecessary to abstract them for meaning. I would like to see what you come up with, if you intend a thorough explication of the piece. I really would like to see that. As it is, there was no particular symbolism that I was going for in the details; the only thing I had to do was weed out the incongruities, and the rest that fit seemed to really fit. I do agree with you about that of the's sentence. I did have some serious misgivings about that sentence for just that reason, but I liked it so much that I couldn't quite see how to fix it. I'll give it some more thought. I really appreciate your comments, Jamesian. You've made my day! :) :D :)

[aeroport]

Is this how you've been spending Spring break, reading short stories?
Somewhat. Plus Hamlet, Macbeth, and "Bartleby, the Scrivener"; trying to catch up a little bit for class.


As for installing subtleties into this story, I think I was simply starting from a solid foundation--and the subtleties just appeared where they were needed.
That was the general impression.


Please tell me if there's a possibility that they could sound a bit contrived.
If they were "contrived" they could hardly be called subtle! :)


As for analyzing every detail, I would hope that the little details do aid the whole in such a way that it is unnecessary to abstract them for meaning.

As it is, there was no particular symbolism that I was going for in the details; the only thing I had to do was weed out the incongruities, and the rest that fit seemed to really fit.
Quite so. I didn't suppose there was some huge underlying scheme going on; the details just seemed to give a good deal of unity and, to a certain degree, subtextual content.


I really appreciate your comments, Jamesian. You've made my day! :) :D :)
Glad to hear it. It's a good story.

[Jean-Baptiste]

Yes, I've been reading some plays this week as well. I've read Much Ado About Nothing, and The Importance of Being Earnest. Two slightly less tragic plays than Hamlet and Macbeth. :p

I'm glad with what you say about the subtleties. I guess what I meant about being contrived is that subtleties can often come off sounding incongruous, as though they've been made up especially to steer the story in an unnatural direction. But I see what you mean that contrivances can't really exist in the midst of sincere subtlety.

I have some questions for you, if you don't mind. What do you think of the characters of the father and mother? Are they present enough in the story? I mean, are they developed enough as characters with respect to their actual roles? I definitely want them to take a backseat to Buster and Edna, but do you think I may have gone over that mark? Also, does Buster's age seem plausible? I was concerned that he was a bit too young for the thought processes he goes through, so I tried out making him a bit older, but that brought up different, worse problems. So I wonder if this is an inherent flaw in the story, or if I'm simply worrying about things that don't matter.

Thanks for all your thoughts, friend.