A question about Onegins behaviour

[Evi]

Why do you think that Onegin refussed Tatianas love in the beginning? becuase she was a girl from a village who was inferior to him or because he was feeling that he was the one who was inferior to her? I mean that he was inferior sentimentically, that he didnt have her power.


Evi

[bazarov]

I can still remeber his words:
Al' nisam sazdan za blaženstvo
i dušom ostajem mu stran,
zaludu vaše savršenstvo
ja njega nisam dostojan!:lol: :lol:
Beautiful quote, I'll always remeber it!
He said that although she was beutiful and everything, he wasn't looking for love or anything like, and she wouldn't be completly happy with him. He liked her, but not that much like she liked him and I think that was the reason he refused her.

[Idril]

I agree with Bazarov. It's not that he wasn't interested, but I think he realized she wasn't a girl to be "trifled" with. He knew how she felt about him but also had enough respect for her not to take advantage of those feelings. I think if her feelings for him hadn't run so deep, if she hadn't been the upright woman she was, he might've given her a "go" but as it was, he was actually being very much the gentleman.

[Evi]

Yes, i agree with you that he reacted as a gentleman , but poor him, he denied love from his life for ever. How can a sophisticated , intelectual man refusing this way a girl he really liked? I think that the whole drama of the story is beginning from this fact. What do you think?

Evi

[Boris239]

I can tell you what was drilled into the heads of poor Russian students in USSR- Onegin is not worthy of Tatyana, who is the perfect representation of Russian woman, Russian national spirit, etc. Onegin is completely spoiled by society, he is another "Hero of his time", who is already not able to do anything useful with himself and not able to love. He is even a real person, just another hero from lord Byron's books.
Well, I was lucky that I studied it already in the 90s.

[bazarov]

Well, you probably did at least for once in your life something although you knew you will regret after it. Everybody does it, and so did Onegin. Maybe he thought it will past away, he will lose his feelings for her, and one day she will be just a happy memory from his youth.Well, he thought it wrong...

[Idril]

How can a sophisticated , intelectual man refusing this way a girl he really liked? I think that the whole drama of the story is beginning from this fact. What do you think?



Well, what I think, and my thinking, admittedly, isn't always that sophisticated but I don't believe he really understood the depth of his feelings for her. He was a classic rogue at the time, always having affairs and although she fascinated him and even garnered more respect than usual from him, I think he felt pretty confident he would get over her once he got back to his 'regular' life. I really believe he was taken completely by surprise by how she effected him and the fact that he couldn't get her out of his head. She seemed to sense the connection right away while it took him a little longer...I think the whole story is about bad timing. ;)

[Evi]

Guys, you ar emaking me really happy that i can discuss about this book, thank you!

I quite agree with all of you. Yes, Bazarov, all of us we have made things that we regreted afterwards. In Greek we also have an expression about such situations: "Why i couldnt have this last thought earlier?"

Idril,yes, he couldnt exactly understand in teh beginning the deapth of the feelings that she had for him. For him , she was another girl and as we said before he was respecting her and he didnt want just to spend a few nights with her. Maybe you are right about the bad timing: when he realised the whole situation it was too late. Every time when i am reading the last pages of this book i feel so sad.

Evi

[bazarov]

Well, I'm not so sure...Onegin didn't have that much affairs and he surely wouldn't look for advanture with Tatyana. From the story we see that in his youth he was bonvivan snd dandy, but he got bored and tired from that kind of life, we can see that clearly from his conversations with Lensky. He thought he will never fall in love for real. He did aslo suddenly became an honorable men so he behaved very honest to her.
"Why i couldnt have this last thought earlier?"
No, the correct would be :''I did know that I will regret, but I did it anyway!''

[Evi]

Bazarov,

I can understand what you mean by the phrase "'I did know that I will regret, but I did it anyway" . But i was meaning about something else, maybe my English doesnt allow me to express myself correctly. I was talking about a phrase we have here: a freely translation in english of this expression would be: "wisdome came late to me". I dont think that Onegin knew that he will regret anyway, i think that he didnt know what he lost with his decision not to be possitive to her love. He regret of course but when he regreted it was too late to change the situation. Just my humple opinion.

Evi

[bazarov]

Nice humple opinion;) So nice of her to stay with N.N.

[Evi]

Bazarov,

I have thought many times about this: if i was in her place what i would have done:staying with my husband or lefting him for the love of my life. It is a difficult question for everyone i guess. i dont know why but i feel more sorry for Onegin, i think that it must be a second chance for everyone. And he didnt have his second chance in life. Myabe Tatayana is the perfect woman but we are not perfect human beings.

Evi

[Idril]

Bazarov,

I have thought many times about this: if i was in her place what i would have done:staying with my husband or lefting him for the love of my life. It is a difficult question for everyone i guess. i dont know why but i feel more sorry for Onegin

Evi

I think it's hard to imagine what we would do in that situation, there is the argument of being true to yourself and doing what makes you happy and then there are your obligations and your guilt, if she did choose to be with Onegin, would her guilt of leaving her husband eventually destroy the relationship, would she share a fate of that of Anna Kerenina? There are so many thing to consider when making a decision like that...I can't remember, did she and her husband have children at that point?

I would imagine Tatayana struggles with it quite a bit as well. At least Onegin is free to love again if and when he recovers from this heartbreak, she is trapped in a loveless marriage for the rest of her life, with no real hope of a reprieve, thinking of what could've been. I don't really believe she's able to just turn off her feelings for him because she made the choice to stay, the sad thing is, I think they'll both be miserable for a long time.

[Vedrana]

When I look at it, Onegin is a 'dandy'- he suppresses emotion.

But at the same time, I agree, he probably didn't believe he should disillusion Tatiana by giving her this false impression that he loved her. I think he didn't want her to be hurt, which shows a degree of love, but at the same time, when you look at Onegin, what kind of capacity did he have at that point in the narrative to love her devotedly? He didn't strike me as the 'type' of person who would want to commit himself entirely to a woman.

[Idril]

He didn't strike me as the 'type' of person who would want to commit himself entirely to a woman.

No, we wasn't and rejecting her at that point was the honorable thing to do, just as her rejecting him in favor of her husband was the honorable thing to do but they both still end up unhappy. Honor is for suckers. ;) :p :lol:

[bazarov]

Would she share a fate of that of Anna Kerenina? There are so many thing to consider when making a decision like that...I can't remember, did she and her husband have children at that point?

I would imagine Tatayana struggles with it quite a bit as well. At least Onegin is free to love again if and when he recovers from this heartbreak, she is trapped in a loveless marriage for the rest of her life, with no real hope of a reprieve, thinking of what could've been. I don't really believe she's able to just turn off her feelings for him because she made the choice to stay, the sad thing is, I think they'll both be miserable for a long time.


I'm not sure are you talking about Ana(you probably don't:D ); she did have a child with her husband in that moment and Tatyana didn't have any kids with N.N.
I'm sure she never did and never will stop loving Onegin and he'll never also forget her. But that's how the things were going in literature of Pushkin's time; it would be impossible for Onegin to be happy with Tatyana or anybody else. It also can't be like Ana and Alyosha because they were happy( for some time at least), but that was realism; this is romantisam, and Romantic heroes were sentenced to short and very unhappy life, often destroyed beacuse of unreturned love, just like Pechorin or Child Harold or Werther...



When I look at it, Onegin is a 'dandy'- he suppresses emotion.

But at the same time, I agree, he probably didn't believe he should disillusion Tatiana by giving her this false impression that he loved her. I think he didn't want her to be hurt, which shows a degree of love, but at the same time, when you look at Onegin, what kind of capacity did he have at that point in the narrative to love her devotedly? He didn't strike me as the 'type' of person who would want to commit himself entirely to a woman.

No, Onegin is not a dandy anymore, in the begining of the plot he admits that he's tired of that way of life and he needs some peace. He totaly changes his modus vivendi, and I guess they would be very very happy.

[Idril]

I'm not sure are you talking about Ana(you probably don't:D ); she did have a child with her husband in that moment and Tatyana didn't have any kids with N.N.

I was talking about Tatyana, I just couldn't remember if there were children involved or not, I was thinking no but my memory has been known to fail me before.


but that was realism; this is romantisam, and Romantic heroes were sentenced to short and very unhappy life, often destroyed beacuse of unreturned love, just like Pechorin or Child Harold or Werther...

That's very true and the story of Onegin and Tatyana wouldn't be nearly so memorable if they had live happily ever after so it's a good thing they didn't, but it's still sad.


No, Onegin is not a dandy anymore, in the begining of the plot he admits that he's tired of that way of life and he needs some peace. He totaly changes his modus vivendi, and I guess they would be very very happy.

But I think at the time of his rejection of Tatyana, he still had one foot in his old life. He was in the process of shedding that way of life, realizing how empty it was and yet still not feeling worthy of the good things in life, still not confident in his ability to live in a better way, otherwise I think he would've accepted Tatyana that first time. And I do agree they would've been very happy together if they'd had better timing.

[Evi]

My opinion is that Onegin with Tatyana would have been happy together ( at least as more couples are!!) and this is the tragedy in this story. The bad timming. When he understood that she was the right woman for him, she was alread married to his cousin.

As Bazarov said this was the time of romantism and the opinions are so different from our modern times. Onegin was written in 1780 or something, right?
Tatyana didnt have children with her husband and as he is decribed in the book ( if i am not mistaken) he is much older than her and uglier and generally he wasnt "her best bet" in this life. So, her decision to remain with him for me, it is heroic!

Evi

[olichka]

I think that the reasons Onegin rejected Tatyana are very complex and interconnected, and it's hard to extricate one from another.


When I look at it, Onegin is a 'dandy'- he suppresses emotion.

It's true, Onegin suppresses or he is simply incapable of sincere emotion because he's only after fun, excitement and sex ! Serious emotion would lead to commitment and the responsibilities and the banalities of marriage and family life, and, therefore, boredom. That's why Onegin is after married women because he doesn't have to commit himself ; he also wants variety which is so richly provided by the affairs with married women.

Firstly, I think, he rejects Tatyana simply because he's not capable of feeling any tender or romantic emotions, having suppressed them for so long while engaging in sexual adventures. He's also in a blase stage of life and in a state of "spleen" ( I think Pushkin refers to it, but I can't remember for sure ), having seen it all and just not capable of any fresh and lively feelings.( Am I repeating myself---anyways, his emotional state is very complex, moody and negative. Later on, at Tatyana's birthday party, he's experiencing great irritation at seeing Tatyana in a forlorn mood).

Secondly, as he himself has told Tatyana, he's just not suited to a family life which would bore him quickly ! And since Tatyana is a young girl of marriageable age, the only feasible relationship with her would be marriage. "Trifling" with her would lead to scandal, since she's from the aristocratic circles and not just some serf girl, although not from the very upper crust of society.

Thirdly, she just doesn't attract him because she's a simple provincial girl (i.e. living on an estate in the country and not in the highly aristocratic St. Petersburg ) which he considers "low class" and boring. And he's not able to see her potential because he's only used to high society ladies. She's also sexually naive and uncorrupted which would make for a very boring relationship indeed !!!

It's interesting that when he does become interested in her, she's a married woman revolving in the highest aristocratic circles and whose husband is a 1812 war hero who is honoured by the Tsar himself. Remember his amazement at seeing Tatyana so grand, majestic and brilliant during her appearance at a court ball ! And it's then that a feeling begins to stir in a formerly "cold and passive soul " ( my transl. of remembered lines in Russian ).

The question remains , is Onegin truly in love with her, or does he just want another affair with a married woman ? Does he want her now because being involved with an aristocratic woman who has connections at the court would bring him prestige and clout ?

As an aside, I'm not sure whether Onegin's response to her letter was cruel. He was forthright and decent, he could have taken advantage of her ( as in Natasha / Kuragin situation ), but he didn't. He did speak tender words to her ( as when comparing a young girl's first love to a young sapling tree shedding its first leaves ). And in the end, he actually did her a favour--- by turning her down he spared her a life with someone as debauched and cynical as he. So I think that the critics' outcry about his treatment of Tatyana is just "much ado about nothing" !!!

[olichka]

I can still remeber his words:
Al' nisam sazdan za blaženstvo
i dušom ostajem mu stran,
zaludu vaše savršenstvo
ja njega nisam dostojan!:lol: :lol:
Beautiful quote, I'll always remeber it!


Um, in what language is the above passage ? Or is it just distorted Russian ?

[olichka]

[Tatyana's]... husband is decribed in the book ( if i am not mistaken) he is much older than her and uglier and generally he wasnt "her best bet" in this life. So, her decision to remain with him for me, it is heroic!



In this respect she's supposed to be a symbol of the true Russian woman, a Russian woman of the people, in that they remained faithful to their husbands even if they didn't love them. In general, Russian peasant women ( supposedly ) ran loose before marriage, but remained faithful after marriage. The aristocratic women, on the contrary, guarded their chastity before marriage, but then had affairs afterwards. So the fact Tatyana's behaviour deviates from the aristocratic norm makes her a true representative of her people.

Even her parting words to Onegin are in the style of a Russian folk song : " I will be faithfull to him till the end of time " --" Ya budu vek yemu verna ".

Her behaviour is similar to that of the Decembrists' wives who follow their husbands into exile, as depicted in Nekrasov's " The Russian women ". One such woman is Maria Volkonsky who leaves her child and follows a husband she doesn't love into exile to Siberia.

[Boris239]

Um, in what language is the above passage ? Or is it just distorted Russian ?

Olichka, it's Croatian. Or at least it is my best guess, becuase Baz is from Croatia :)

[olichka]

Olichka, it's Croatian. Or at least it is my best guess, becuase Baz is from Croatia :)

That's what I thought originally, but then I mixed up Bazarov with you (same 1st letter of name ) and since I knew you were from the USSR and a native Russian speaker, I thought you were just making fun of the verses !

[Boris239]

That's what I thought originally, but then I mixed up Bazarov with you (same 1st letter of name ) and since I knew you were from the USSR and a native Russian speaker, I thought you were just making fun of the verses !

How could I make fun of Pushkin?!! :) It's almost blasphemy :flare:

[olichka]

How could I make fun of Pushkin?!! :) It's almost blasphemy :flare:

Actually, I'm from the former USSR, too, and as you must know, along with revering their literary masters, they also poke fun at them and their works, sometimes even twisting the words for a vulgar effect . I know some people (even PH.D's ) who actually made fun of the celebrated lines spoken by Tatyana's husband ( but I will not go into that here ).

Actually, it's not all that inappropriate to make fun of Pushkin, considering that he was a libertine and a blasphemer himself---remember the " GAVRILIADA " ??!! :flare:

That being said, I consider Pushkin a poetical wonder--the beauty of the Russian language in his works is just stunning. In fact, " Eugene Onegin " is the only large work in verse that I've enjoyed because of it !!! :bawling: :angel:

[Boris239]

Actually, I'm from the former USSR, too, and as you must know, along with revering their literary masters, they also poke fun at them and their works, sometimes even twisting the words for a vulgar effect . I know some people (even PH.D's ) who actually made fun of the celebrated lines spoken by Tatyana's husband ( but I will not go into that here ).

Actually, it's not all that inappropriate to make fun of Pushkin, considering that he was a libertine and a blasphemer himself---remember the " GAVRILIADA " ??!! :flare:

That being said, I consider Pushkin a poetical wonder--the beauty of the Russian language in his works is just stunning. In fact, " Eugene Onegin " is the only large work in verse that I've enjoyed because of it !!! :bawling: :angel:

I was obviously joking about blasphemy. Are the lines spoken by the Prince:

Onegin, I skryvat' ne stanu
Bezumno I lublu smetanu.


Actually, while I like and revere Pushkin, he was never my favorite poet. I always preferred poets of the Silver Age- Gumilev, Akhmatova, Severyanin.

[olichka]

I was obviously joking about blasphemy. Are the lines spoken by the Prince:

Onegin, I skryvat' ne stanu
Bezumno I lublu smetanu.




Almost, but some words are twisted. Forgive for the vulgarity, but since you asked :

" Onegin, ya s krOvat' ne stanu
Bezumno ya lublu Tatianu ! " :rolleyes:

[olichka]

Do you, guys, like the opera " Eugene Onegin " by Tchaikovsky ?

I, personally, think it's superb ! :bawling: :angel:

[Boris239]

Yes, I really enjoyed watching it in St. Petersburg's Maliy Operniy Theater. Or should I say listening to it?

[olichka]

Yes, I really enjoyed watching it in St. Petersburg's Maliy Operniy Theater. Or should I say listening to it?

You're so lucky you saw it in a theater, and at the Maly's, at that !
I only saw it on T.V., and I believe it was a joined Canadian / British production. It was great, though, with Alan Thomas in the title role !

Did you see the old Soviet film ( late 1950's---early 1960's ) which was a film/opera, with Galina Vishnevskaya singing the role of Tatyana ? Wasn't it great ? Both the singing and the acting were superb !

[Boris239]

No I haven't seen it. I have only watched the horrible English version with Ralph Fiennes and Liv Tyler. :blush:

[olichka]

No I haven't seen it. I have only watched the horrible English version with Ralph Fiennes and Liv Tyler. :blush:

That version was indeed horrible---it was more like Gothic horror, than a Russian romantic/lyrical work. :smash: And turning Tatyana's husband into a young, handsome man robbed her refusal of Yevgeny of any meaning---after all, why should she pine after Yevgeniy when she has a gorgeous husband at home ?

But then, in the West, they probably wouldn't understand the Russian values of sacrificing love for faithfulness. :alien:

[bazarov]

Um, in what language is the above passage ? Or is it just distorted Russian ?
No, it's a beauty of Russian verse and Croatian language! Olichka, I haven't been her for a while, but your enthusiasm asked for my attention!

[Evi]

It happens to be in the West , as you call it. And maybe here in West we cant understand of sacrificing or of love. I guess that love and generally human feelings are international and nobody ( no nation ) can claim of them.

It also happens that i have seen the "horrible" movie you mentioned. Why is so horrible? I would like if it is possible to tell me exact arguements and not general ideas about the Russian soul. I admire and i respect very much all Russians and all souls , i just want logical positions.

Is there a Russian movie with Russian actors and crew that filmed ever this poem?

[olichka]

It happens to be in the West , as you call it. And maybe here in West we cant understand of sacrificing or of love. I guess that love and generally human feelings are international and nobody ( no nation ) can claim of them.

It also happens that i have seen the "horrible" movie you mentioned. Why is so horrible? I would like if it is possible to tell me exact arguements and not general ideas about the Russian soul. I admire and i respect very much all Russians and all souls , i just want logical positions.

Is there a Russian movie with Russian actors and crew that filmed ever this poem?


It was horrible because it lacked the ambience of the Pushkin`s poem --- the pain, the sweetness and the lyricism. It was almost Gothic in character --- dark, moody and eerie, and the choice of Ralph Fiennes certainly contributed to the eeriness. ( Pushkin`s Eugene is moody, but not in an eerie, creepy way --- Fiennes almost reminded me of Dracula here ! )

It certainly lacked Russian warmth and liveliness --- I found it too cold, staid and plodding.

In the poem, Tatyana and Olga are supposed to be as different as night and day. In this movie, they are virtually indistinguishable both in appearance and personality !

Tatyana`s husband was too handsome, and she was shown as enjoying his company, whereas in the poem she clearly doesn`t love him which robs her refusal of Onegin of any morality or sacrifice --- after all, where`s the sacrifice, if she loves her husband ?

Actually, by being faithful to a husband she doesn`t love, Tatyana is demonstrating the traits of a Russian woman of the people ( not an aristocratic Russian woman ). Surely such qualities are rarely exhibited in the modern West ( i.e. the USA ) --- with all these affairs going on, I doubt that any modern Western woman would stay faithful to a husband she doesn`t love !

[JBI]

It was horrible because it lacked the ambience of the Pushkin`s poem --- the pain, the sweetness and the lyricism. It was almost Gothic in character --- dark, moody and eerie, and the choice of Ralph Fiennes certainly contributed to the eeriness. ( Pushkin`s Eugene is moody, but not in an eerie, creepy way --- Fiennes almost reminded me of Dracula here ! )

It certainly lacked Russian warmth and liveliness --- I found it too cold, staid and plodding.

In the poem, Tatyana and Olga are supposed to be as different as night and day. In this movie, they are virtually indistinguishable both in appearance and personality !

Tatyana`s husband was too handsome, and she was shown as enjoying his company, whereas in the poem she clearly doesn`t love him which robs her refusal of Onegin of any morality or sacrifice --- after all, where`s the sacrifice, if she loves her husband ?

Actually, by being faithful to a husband she doesn`t love, Tatyana is demonstrating the traits of a Russian woman of the people ( not an aristocratic Russian woman ). Surely such qualities are rarely exhibited in the modern West ( i.e. the USA ) --- with all these affairs going on, I doubt that any modern Western woman would stay faithful to a husband she doesn`t love !

Not to mention that the whole point is that it is a poem. Poems are about the beauty of the language, and the art of verse and imagery. The movie essentially was a dry story with no real color that wreaked of bad acting and lack of plot. The whole purpose of the story was to show the contrast of the 4 very different characters. Lensky wasn't very convincing, I like the way Tchaikovsky portrayed him much better. Onegin really didn't make you feel any sort of sympathy, and just came off as a moody, depressing, obnoxious person. The whole ending seemed a bit of a robbery since the role of Onegin didn't fit. Olga is a much flatter character in the movie, and makes me want to throw something. Tanya was terribly cast, and lacked the sense of the character. The director made her out to be a depressing gloomy woman who resembles something more like the woman from sleepy hollow.


For a Russian version that works, you should look into Tchaikovsky's Eugene Onegin, a Russian Opera. That version, although slightly altering the plot (giving more depth to Tanya's husband, and making Lensky a lot more sympathetic) really captured Pushkin's messages, and portrayed them beautifully, taking away the Poetry and adding music. That is perhaps the closest thing I have seen to an accurate visual representation of the poem.

[Evi]

First of all, we cant compare things that they are totally different : a poem to a film or a film to an opera!! There are totally different things! All of them are art but every kind of art has its own ways to demonstrate some things.

When you are reforming a literatute piece to a film you cant have all the deepness that the novel, poem has. A novel can be 600 pages and a film lasts for 2 hours for example. War and piece is a 1.500 pages novel for example. How you can put all these in a film? For sure you will left some things out.

Another question: why there isnt a Russian ( or any other nationality ) film about Onegin? All people in all nations have favorite poets and novelists. And all of us are very pleased to introduce them to all the other nations. Why Russians didnt introduce us to Onegin? They had to wait for a British guy to make him know to the rest of the planet? Then , they have to thank him! Being a British and taking the courage to shoot a film about the Russian soul is a brave thing after all.

In the movie, Tatyana and Olga are totally different: Olga is the woman who wants to be loved romantically by anyone, Tatyana is in love with a particular pesron. Totally different things. Very obvious through the movie, even if you haent read the poem.

The plot is even more dramatic when Tataynas husband isnt the old , ugly beast she had to marry! Tatayna is a better heroine when she is choosing between two young men! She is choosing her husband who is young and nice. It would have been more easy for her to chose Onegin if her husband was the old and ugly guy. The Russian soul( and every geniune soul) is more satisfied this way.

I am not from USA , it happens to be Greek ( i dont think that it matters in our conversation) but generally i dont like generalitasions : she is American , she cant understand the Greek soul!! for example. And i cant believe that all Russian/ American/ English whatever women can love more than any other woman. Here we are talking about things that are same to all people: love, hate, misery etc. LITERATURE is international.

[JBI]

I disagree, I would think the Russians didn't make a crappy movie because they realized it would be a crappy movie. The Poem is designed as a Poem, and the story, I feel wouldn't and doesn't translate well into a movie. Verse has a completely different feel than prose, and thus creates a more difficult time for any screen play writer.

That is why I commented that the opera worked better, simply because poems translate better into operas.

[Evi]

We used to have months ago a discussion in this forum about the difference of the movies and the books ( indifferent the kind of them: literature, poetry, biographies etc) The general conclusion of this discussion was that - good or not- it is a fact that the cinema has a greater appeal to the people than the books. Unfortunately less people read than watch. So, from this point of view and if you think logic, poor Fiennes made wellknown to a much bigger audience a classical piece. This is something in my opinion.

And anyway, we use to say that sometimes the try is better than the good realisation.

[olichka]

QUOTE=JBI;401214]I disagree, I would think the Russians didn't make a crappy movie because they realized it would be a crappy movie. The Poem is designed as a Poem, and the story, I feel wouldn't and doesn't translate well into a movie. Verse has a completely different feel than prose, and thus creates a more difficult time for any screen play writer.

That is why I commented that the opera worked better, simply because poems translate better into operas.[/QUOTE]

Actually, the Russians did make a movie---it was made in the fifties, and it was a film-opera,using actors to portray the characters and opera singers to do the singing---obviously, singing was dubbed. Tatyana was sung by Galina Vishnevskaya ! It's a wonderful movie --- the actors were young enough and looked the part, while allowing for the beautiful singing.

Personally, I have to disagree that it's impossible to translate one medium into another : if the right cinematic techniques and the right music is used, the movie can convey effectively the atmosphere of the literary work, even a poem, although I do agree that an opera does translate a poem more effectively.

If the right lighting, music, etc. were used in the Ralph Fiennes movie, it could have come off.

Olga may have wanted to be loved by anyone, as opposed to Tatyana, but the thing is, she was not lively and frivolous as she was supposed to be in the poem. Also, in the poem, she doesn't just want to be loved romantically, she's actually quite a sexy being, almost a siren. I didn't feel that it came off in the movie !

I don't understand the argument that Tatyana is a better heroine because she's choosing a young man and that it would have been easier for her to choose Onegin if her husband were old and ugly! That's the whole point Pushkin is making ! Even though Tatyana's husband is older and not as handsome as Onegin ( as described in the poem ) , she's still choosing him because of her sense of duty, loyalty and honour ! ( in the poem Tatyana says these words :But I'm given to another, and I will be faithful to him to the end ! ) In this respect she is demonstrating the traits of a true Russian woman : to stay faithful to her husband, even if she doesn't love him. These are actual traditional traits of Russian women : self-sacrifice and submissiveness to fate, and by making the plot go this way, Pushkin is actually satisfying the Russian soul !

The Russian traditional character is about self-sacrifice, not about indulgence and fun !

There is a poem by another Russian poet Nekrassov called " The Russian women " . In it, aristocratic women are following their revolutionary husbands into exile in Siberia, thereby giving up their aristocratic privileges and wealth. One of the women is a young woman who is following a much older husband whom she doesn't love. Like Tatyana---and the title " The Russian women " is very telling !

[Evi]

I am very fond of Russian literature and generally of Russia. But i cant understand exactly the phrase "Russian soul" and "Russian woman". I mean that every person , every woman , every soul can love, can make sucrificions for love. Not only Russians but all people generally. Love is a gift of God given to everyone.

I am not aware of the Russian movie you are talking, hope we will be able to see it once!

[olichka]

I am very fond of Russian literature and generally of Russia. But i cant understand exactly the phrase "Russian soul" and "Russian woman". I mean that every person , every woman , every soul can love, can make sucrificions for love. Not only Russians but all people generally. Love is a gift of God given to everyone.

I am not aware of the Russian movie you are talking, hope we will be able to see it once!


Evi, it's an acknowledged fact that every nation has a national character. The Russian character has traditionally been associated with traits of endurance, loyalty and self-sacrifice. Must be all those wars they've been through, as well as the climate---the long winters, particularly in Siberia. You must agree that such conditions build tough characters !

The Russian women have traditionally been seen as having those traits. In Russian literature there are many portrayals of women displaying traits of faithfulness, steadfastness and self --sacrifice, particularly with regard to their husbands and families.

This is not to say that people from other cultures don't have them, it's just that it seems to occur more frequently and to a more intense degree among the Russians, for reasons I've already given.

So no offence, please !