Fairytales vs. reality..which would you choose?!

[Nossa]

Okay..
I'm studying Plato's The Republic...in my Literary Criticism course this term..
And some parts in it got me wondering about certain things..
Like what Plato said about Fables..and Fairytales..and them being bad influence on the new generations...yes he meant the poets' stories about Gods and Goddesses fighting and all...and yes he refused the stories about heros and idols and picturing them in a negative way...
But coming to think about it...
I think that this can apply to nowadays...from anther prospective though...that is,
should we tell our kids, nowadays, fairytales which end with happy endings and all...or should we shock them with a reality, they'll know sooner or later?!
Don't you think that making our little new generations ready for what's coming ahead, and making them familiar with what's happening in the world is better for them, than telling them stories, which , once they grow up, they'll know it's a mere lie,if I might say, and it was pointless?
Do you consider not allowing kids to see news, or not allowing them to watch certain things on tv, do you consider this a protective precaution?!
And what exactly is it protecting them from?!
is it protecting them from things...that they'll sure face someday?!
I know that Plato didn't mean any of this in his dialogues..
But this was just a question that popped to my head..

[miss tenderness]

Nossa, when we were kids we enjoyed these fairytales, however, it did not have a negative effect on us now as a grown up. I'm afraid that the coming generation is going to witness a real disastrous life more that ours. So, they have the right to live the innocence and the dreams of their age. Let these lil poor kids enjoy their childhood as much as possible and forget all this theories! Imagination is a large part of childhood, isn't it? So why preventing them from one specialty of their age.

[Nossa]

I know what you say..and totally understand it..
It's just that living in this world, requires a certain level of awareness...which even kids have, like it or not...or that's at least what I see now..
So yes, kids should have thier innocence..but now and in this world..they don't exaclty completely have it...meaning that, they know when they're 6 what I knew when I was 15 or so...they understand more things about the world..
It's to me the same as telling a grown up a fairytale...he's not gonna find it interesting..same as kids now..
Am I making sense here? lol

[miss tenderness]

I know what u are saying,Nossa, it's so real.

I mean my little sister knows a graet deal about everything, but thankfully,she still enjoys the cartoons and fairytale story. Though I found her once reading The Da Vinci Code!so u're right.

[ennison]

Witch in woods tries to cook lost children. Children roast old witch instead.

Girl in red cloak disembowels wolf to free granny.

Soft-hearted maid is kept as indentured 'slave' by warty-nosed step-sisters.

Woodsman is instructed by beautiful evil dominatrix to chop up sweet-natured competitor and make it look like accident.

Freedom-loving little pigs are victimised by slobbering wild dog. They boil him.


Gentle tales. I think not. Stephen King eat yer heart out.

[miss tenderness]

very frightenning,Enn.
Your post (above) speaks the crazy stuff that are represented for our poor kids, horror horror!!

[genoveva]

I'm not familiar with Plato's reference to fables. Maybe you could post a quote. But I have been studying fairytales lately and can share that originally they were not meant for children! They were stories for adults. As the ages went by and we became more conservative (i.e. the Victorian Age) it went out of fashion for adults to take pleasure in these tales. Instead, they became toned down for children. Now we find fairytales (mostly the Grimm Brothers versions) being enjoyed by children; and at the same time, find your more "politically correct" parents not wanting their children to read/hear them. One view (probably inspired by Bruno Betelheim) is that these tales act in a homeopathic nature. For example, children can experience fear by listening to these fairytales, but they can experience it in a safe way. The story (usually) turns out okay, and well, it's just a story anyway; it's not reality. Interesting stuff...

[bhekti]

should we tell our kids, nowadays, fairytales which end with happy endings and all...or should we shock them with a reality, they'll know sooner or later?!
Don't you think that making our little new generations ready for what's coming ahead, and making them familiar with what's happening in the world is better for them, than telling them stories, which , once they grow up, they'll know it's a mere lie,if I might say, and it was pointless?
Do you consider not allowing kids to see news, or not allowing them to watch certain things on tv, do you consider this a protective precaution?!
And what exactly is it protecting them from?!
is it protecting them from things...that they'll sure face someday?!


BUt, isn't fairy tales symbolizing reality? There are the good guys, the bad guys, the consequences of bad or good deeds, the sufferings/adventures one must go through before achieving happiness, etc. Why symbolizing? Why not directly tell the real thing? Well, that's art.

[Eagleheart]

To invent fables about a world "other" than this one has no meaning at all, unless an instinct of slander, detraction and suspicion against life has gained the upper hand in us: in that case, we avenge ourselves against life with a phantasmagoria of "another", a "better" life...

Don't be mad at me...Nietzsche has said that.../if he could I am sure he would be gloating/

[ennison]

Ah yes I miss tenderness. Seriously the fairy tales are not originally gentle stories for children to fall asleep to (unless you wanted them to have nightmares) but like the Scots ballads they are visceral stories of the most basic human fears, wishes and hatreds.

[Redzeppelin]

Plato's distrust of poets in The Republic is up for debate in terms of whether or not Socrates (Plato's mouthpiece) was speaking ironically or not. Plato's dialogues involve Socrates' examination of various arguments and positions by other speakers, and Socrates is famous for his use of irony in speaking (we call any use of feigned ignorance "Socratic Irony" because Socrates use of this technique in order to allow his opponent to explain/define his position). As such, it is not necessarily definite that Plato disliked poets (the makers of "fables and fairytales"). As well, Plato's restriction of "fables" and such was in reference to the training of the "guardians" (a sort of military force for the perfect republic) - not necessarily the general public.

Mythic writing (fairy tales, legends, folktales and such) points readers to a larger frame of reference, and - ultimately - to a clearer picture of reality because they tell stories about human nature and human psychology. The fact that they are read less and less by children these days (in favor of vacuous, politically correct stories that have an ideological agenda) shows up in the "smaller" stories people live, instead of the "larger" narratives our lives are meant to be. Kids are missing something by losing these stories because they connect us to a deeper past, a more "real" reality that exists beyond socially constructed stories whose aim is more to indoctrinate than to induct the child into a bigger realization of the world.

[dramasnot6]

We must remember that, although kids are getting more and more knowledgable, there is still an extent to which you can expose them. I will agree those fairytales can send some pretty horrific messages. But for most 4 or 5 year olds black and white scenarios of complete bad vs complete good is essentially their range of understanding. I do think plots could be altered slightly to send fewer subliminal messages lined with sexism and political bias, perhaps Franny Feminist meets Misogynist Maxwell?:lol: We have to be wary that Jung and Plato might be a bit much before adolescence. I have seen the rare childrens book that promotes a deeper, more analytical view of the world. Best example i can think of now would be Lemony Snicket's Series of Unfortunate Events. But even those are for kids more towards the ages 11-13. I think the best way to read fairytales is to talk them over with little children. When i babysat a year ago I used to read to 4-6 year olds then ask them questions like "What do you think about this character? If you were Hansel and Gretel would you do the same thing?" And they actually responded and enjoyed simply talking about it. Same thing applies in the adult world of reading. Sure, we all have our times of reading junk, but what matters is that we can identify it as junk.

[alhara]

"or should we shock them with a reality, they'll know sooner or later?!"


thats not exactely true. i teach art class to children and when i got started i though the same thing but it just doesn´t work that way with kids. there is a reason you learn the colors in pre-k and freud in high school. one these things have to build upon each other and two there is a wall there. children are despite all ther imagination and creativity literal beings. if you show them how to do something they will, to the best of there ablity, do exactley that, no expansion. I stoped bringing examples to my art class because the kids just copied it. You have to sit with them and FORCE them to think for them selves, their brains and not fully wired yet, they are sad sometimes happy sometime and they get some concept of morality but for the most part its "I did it cause mommy told me to" end of explanation. Fairtales are safe because they don´t exist other wise all your friendly neigborhood wolves Would be broild or disimbowled, thats why though fairtaes are geting softer you keep the wolf the dragon or the knight they are safe in the realm of unreality from the danger of little children.

maybe they do know what you know at 15 but they don´t understand it in the same way. facts are fine ideas are dangerously misunderstood by kids in my experiance.

[dramasnot6]

completely agree with you there alhara..its kinda what i was trying to get at with my last post, but you put it in a much better way. Thanks!:D :thumbs_up

[alhara]

thanks for the compliment drama your post put it well but froma diffrnet point of view babysitter vs. teacher. It´s nice to know people read what you write

[Redzeppelin]

Since Jung was brought up, I will pick up the ball. Part of what makes fairytales so powerful is their psychological components. Fairytales are populated with "archeypes" - models of the elements of our psyches that are inherent to all cultures. The problem with many modern stories is that they are not populated with archetypes so much as they are with agendas. Fairytales resonate with us at a very deep, almost unconscious level. To lose fairytales is to lose a form of literature that speaks most eloquently to our minds.

I can't do this topic justice becasue I haven't brushed up on it since grad school - but the old stories contain dramas that speak of the internal drama that we all face in some way, shape or form. The greatest of stories all tell the essential story of the fairytale - whether it be Red Riding Hood, The Lion King, or Star Wars.

[toni]

Okay, how about this? This is from Charles Dickens' Hard Times


The dreams of childhood,-its airy fables; its graceful, beautiful, humane, impossible adornments of the world beyond: so good to be believed in once, so good to be remembered when outgrown.

[Whifflingpin]

"The problem with many modern stories is that they are not populated with archetypes so much as they are with agendas."

"The problem with many modern stories is that they are not populated with archetypes so much as they are with agendas. "

"The problem with many modern stories is that they are not populated with archetypes so much as they are with agendas. "

I enjoyed that.

[toni]

:thumbs_up: :thumbs_up: :thumbs_up: to Whifflingpin.

[Redzeppelin]

Nice Dickens quotation.

Ultimately, fairy tales resonate with truths that invite us into a larger "story" of life. They don't indoctrinate us so much as they initiate us. Modern stories filled with politically correct characters and ideas may teach us about our society and its (sometimes questionable) values, but fairy tales and myths, legends and folktales, teach us about ourselves, and about the lives we lead.

[dramasnot6]

Fairy tales: horror stories for children to get them used to reality.
Just found this quote,thought it was interesting and rather revelant to the subject...

[Misscaroline]

Horror? I don't remember being terrified as a child. The connection I make is that I remember being inspired, wanting to learn more of life, when I read a fairy tale. Years later, you question the possibility of the story, the plausibility of action, the meaning behind it all. It was a cool story. That's about it. You wonder are there more beanstalks in the countryside, are there more princes riding off to rescue the damsel, are there dragons guarding the great treasures of the earth?- but you don't stop to think if it COULD have happened. You're still at the age of innocence, where you believe that this must have happened. I know I tried many times to spin gold from straw and the like, but the point is that you invite the children to be curious at what new tale of life lies around the corner. I write some of my own occasionally- and whether or not they are good, there is never a "moral" of the story. Instead, I just like to say "Life is life. Enjoy." and set the little darlings loose to explore. I agree that it is a lesson, but one more so to inspire than to instruct. Or that's how it's supposed to be, in my twisted little mind...:blush:

[kilted exile]

Fairy tales: horror stories for children to get them used to reality.
Just found this quote,thought it was interesting and rather revelant to the subject...

Hmmm, dont think I can subscribe to that, the wide majority of fairy tales have a happy ending - unlike the majority of life

[Nightshade]

This is an intresting thread:D I posted somthing more than an year ago now about banning cinderella?, There was this study that said that Cinderella could have a negtive impact on women. And that girls that identified with cinderella were more likley to end up in abusive relationships and put up with them for longer than girls who did not.
here found the link (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12503)

Also just found things going on about how fairy tales reinforce helplessness etc. Actually its quite intresting when you think about the recent rewritings of fairy tales as novels, for a lot of them the idea of independance cmes through and the helplessness gets shoved back...
But sure its horror I HATE hansel and gretel and the first nightmare I can rember came from watching the disney snow white ( I was sure I saw the witch coming at me an d she was going to force me to eat the poison apple)
:eek2:
But I love fairy tales, myths, legends all that kind of thing I wanted to study them at uni level but couldnt find a course that specialised in them :( . I think a healthy mix is what people should aim for :nod:

[Misscaroline]

Oh, I love the tales! Every legend, myth, story, and anything else that I can get my hands on is part of my own personal study. But I was the most idealistic kid out there, read the most fairy tales from every country possible, and yet I'm not waiting for P. Charming to come riding in gallantly. Quite a few of the tales I read didn't end happily, in fact, because I read from such diverse backgrounds. I do agree that Cinderella and similar fairy tales might generate a dangerous mentality in certain people who are confronted with similar situations, like a girl who may more readily believe that she should wait in an abusive relationship so that it would pay off, but for the most part the fairytales are harmless in real life. NIghtmares, yes, occasionally- but no lasting injury. And even for those negatively effected, whether by wrongly applied principles learned from the tales or by an introduction into a world that they are not fully capable of comprehending-- unfortunately for the abused girls and the Peter Pans, one must grow up at one time and they will have no inkling if we were to protect them from such knowledge. Besides, such factors are definitely a part of the life we intend on introducing them to and there is no way to eternally shield children from the truth just as there is no way to keep them a child forever...

[Nightshade]

hummm any collecions to recommend then Missy?
ever read east of the sun amd west of the moon?
or the alaskan one about the mother of the sea or is it ocean?:eek2:

[Misscaroline]

No, but I'm partial to three in particular: The Brother's Grimm, Andersen's, and Bulfinch's Mythology... BM's my fave... When I was 13, I had my head so far down the section on Arthur that my parents tried to use duct tape to try and shut me up whenever I started comparing their three examples of Tristram and Iseult. There are many others, and I translate some of my own Roman mythology from Ovid, Virgil, etc. I can get you some, if you have any that you'd be interested in...(I also love this old book of Russian folk and faerie tales I had a kid, but I've no idea where it's gotten to...) Let me know if I can help feed the passion :)!

And also, as far as good old fashioned fairy tales with a twist go, I really love Orson Scott Card's Enchanted. It's a great version of Sleeping Beauty, and it's really inventive-- plus, as far as I can tell, no morals (not any new inserted, let's-make-the-children-ideologically-perfect ones at least...)

[Nightshade]

oooh orson scott card?:) havent read that one not familiar with BM Im afraid although I do have a copy of Tristram and Iseult somwhere... that is the one about the foster siblings and she ends up married to a king isnt it??

Have you read robin mckinleys deerskin? rather disterbing since its based on sonkey skin and the end sort of hangs there ( but quite afew of her books do that) but good:nod:

[Misscaroline]

Yes, Orson Scott Card. I'm a big fan of his, and Enchanted always seems to fall throught the cracks. It's quite good though. And I admit, I haven't been keeping up with him as well as I used to... He's put so many new books into the Ender's Shadow series at a time where I have none...:bawling:
I will most certainly go look for Robin McKinley. And there are many other stories in Bulfinch, since it's a compilation- it's basically a rundown of your basic ancient mythologies, King Arthur, and Charlemagne. I can find you more if you wish...:blush: I have too many to begin with, and nearly limitless resources...

[Eagleheart]

If humans didn't need to dream they are strangling a rabbit some time when they have to face a certain fear for example, maybe the existence of fairy tales would be extraneous. As it stands representations and symbols are a significant part of one's ability to bear reality and it makes me tolerant enough of even some extravagant decorations of it...

[SummerSolstice]

"Fairy tales are more than true - not because they tell us dragons exist, but because they tell us dragons can be defeated." - G.K. Chesterson

The reasons I live:
1)God,
2)Fairy tales.

Fairy tales are my purpose. I adore them. Passionately. They are the essence of childhood, with the dreaming and possibilities, and yes, sometimes the fear and unhappiness, too. They are life on earth as it should be, encapsulated. Hardships, trials, but nothing that you can't overcome, nothing that doesn't end up better than it began. Fairy tales tell us that, like the quote above, it doesn't matter if you're spit on, hated, without a friend in the world, there's something special about you that's just waiting for the perfect moment to spring out and save the world.

That study about Cinderella? I bet you my copy of Ella Enchanted that all those girls grew up hearing nothing but the Disneyfied version. In all the old versions, the real ones that Disney mixed one part to two parts sugar water, the fairy godmother does not pop out of nowhere and wave her magic wand. Any magic was due to something Cinderella herself did. It makes me wanna go assassinate somebody responsible to think that the one story that should give an abused little girl the hope and determination that she needs to overcome her situation would do the opposite. I won't get on my LONG rant about fairy tales here unless somebody really doesn't mind bleeding eyes, but I do have one little rant that is getting musty and could do for some airing... ahem. (Be patient, this will only take a sec.)

The idea that the Grimm and some of the Andersen fairy tales were originally rather graphic and disturbing folklore items is something that, no matter how true it may be, I am rather tired of hearing, simply because somebody brings it up every time anybody discusses fairy tales (which in the first place isn't nearly often enough to suit me). I'm not dissing those that said it, or anything; I'm merely suggesting that maybe it's not the point. When I talk about fairy tales, I'm talking about the gory 'Mrs. Bluebeard,' yes, but also Jeanne-Marie Baptiste's classic retelling of 'Beauty and the Beast,' published in a 'magazine' of morality tales, and C.S. Lewis' Narnia stories, written within the last century but deserving of a place among classic fairy tales nonetheless. What they were once doesn't matter a lick next to what they are now, and I don't think the originals would scar children that much anyhow. Most children are a fruitcake of a lot more psychologically healthy and resilient than most adults, lemme tell ya.

[Shadowsarin]

Hmm...I would personally choose neither. While reality may be boring and limited, I always found Fairytales the same. I'm not altogether sure why, maybe its because I always found them repetative and, being blunt, silly.

However, my knowledge of Fairytales is limited to what might crop up in populer culture, such as Disney films and so on. Thus, there might well be some downright amazing fairytales out there I am yet to discover.

[Redzeppelin]

"Fairy tales are more than true - not because they tell us dragons exist, but because they tell us dragons can be defeated." - G.K. Chesterson

Chesterton is brilliant - that pithy quotation said everything I was trying to say (and say poorly). Thanks for posting that - I will remember that one.

[SummerSolstice]

Yeah, sometimes it's tempting just to let dead folks do our thinking for us, isn't it? :lol:

[Redzeppelin]

Or - as I prefer to think - to let them do my speaking for me. I think that is the sign of a great writer: someone who is able to put into words something you have felt or believed, but could never find the proper words to express.

[Nightshade]

That study about Cinderella? I bet you my copy of Ella Enchanted



book or film? and if book have you read the levine twisted tales I think it was called she adapted piles of stories all very good. the film ella enchanted was alright ( music was excellent but not a patch on the book ( my sisters got me the film for my 18th birthday said it sounded like I story Id read they didntrealise I hadth book:D


The idea that the Grimm and some of the Andersen fairy tales were originally rather graphic and disturbing folklore items is something that, no matter how true it may be, I am rather tired of hearing, simply because somebody brings it up every time anybody discusses fairy tales (which in the first place isn't nearly often enough to suit me). I'm not dissing those that said it, or anything; I'm merely suggesting that maybe it's not the point. When I talk about fairy tales, I'm talking about the gory 'Mrs. Bluebeard,' yes, but also Jeanne-Marie Baptiste's classic retelling of 'Beauty and the Beast,' published in a 'magazine' of morality tales, and C.S. Lewis' Narnia stories, written within the last century but deserving of a place among classic fairy tales nonetheless. What they were once doesn't matter a lick next to what they are now, and I don't think the originals would scar children that much anyhow..
hear hear... on the other hand Im fascinated by the watering down of fairy tales by peoples attitude to them , their place in society how they affect society and the message theycontain as well as just adoring them. So I bring up the gorines alot but thats the thing if you look at fairy tales ow we are having a reshift into goriness and the question is why?


Yes, Orson Scott Card. I'm a big fan of his, and Enchanted always seems to fall throught the cracks. It's quite good though. And I admit, I haven't been keeping up with him as well as I used to... He's put so many new books into the Ender's Shadow series at a time where I have none...:bawling:
I will most certainly go look for Robin McKinley. And there are many other stories in Bulfinch, since it's a compilation- it's basically a rundown of your basic ancient mythologies, King Arthur, and Charlemagne. I can find you more if you wish...:blush: I have too many to begin with, and nearly limitless resources...

The guy who wrote wicked also write adaptation that are good. oh yes can You pm me a list of resources:D:D

[ennison]

From Redzep ''Ultimately, fairy tales resonate with truths that invite us into a larger "story" of life. They don't indoctrinate us so much as they initiate us. Modern stories filled with politically correct characters and ideas may teach us about our society and its (sometimes questionable) values, but fairy tales and myths, legends and folktales, teach us about ourselve, and about the lives we lead.''

I agree. You know your stuff.

[ennison]

Disney candified fairy tales and took the gory horror out. Think of Snow White and her retinue of grotesques and deformed outcasts turned into laughable and cosy pets by our Walt.

[SummerSolstice]

...are you baiting me? Because I have enough self control not to fall for people who are baiting me. Just enough, though. There was never anything horrific about the dwarves, for gosh sakes. If you want horrific, how about the fact that, before the Grimm brothers realized that their colleagues in folklore were reading these stories to their children, the "stepmother" queen wasn't a stepmother at all. She was the real mother! The whole story is "really" about a girl trying to be what her mother couldn't be, escape from her shadow, as it were, and driving the mom mad with jealousy. In such a way, I find Snow White almost creepier than Mrs. Bluebeard, the iconically gory classic fairy tale. I like the 'Fletcher's Bird' retelling of Mrs. Bluebeard better, anyway.

Anyway, that's not the point, like I said. It's immaterial whether or not Disney de-bloodied fairy tales, which he didn't (not by himself, anyway). The point is that he eviscerated them of their message. Each one was once unique and now they've all got this one-size "Romantic Love Conquers All" moral to them, which isn't even true. Cram your 'bloody' fairy tales. I want fairy tales that mean something again.

Nightshade? The BOOK, of COURSE! Gail Carson Levine is my idol. I've read the book about nine or ten times, not counting rereadings of the pages where she gets Prince Char's last letter and where she breaks the curse. I've actually vowed that the movie is the only book-to-film I will never see. From all I've heard, it's a disgrace, and I'd rather have the images that my book gives me than get them all messed up with images from the film. Talking animals? Young and pretty Mandy? TALL Ella? And what the crud with the talking book? WHY? It's like they said, "Newbery Honor? Pshh! We're Hollywood! Nothing that wins awards from those stuffy LITERARY folks will ever do good here! Run the book through a mulcher, stir it around with some sewage, and assemble a script from that. I'll be busy hiring sexpot stars."

*Totters off, ranting and raving*

[Nightshade]

Nightshade? The BOOK, of COURSE! Gail Carson Levine is my idol. I've read the book about nine or ten times, not counting rereadings of the pages where she gets Prince Char's last letter and where she breaks the curse. I've actually vowed that the movie is the only book-to-film I will never see. From all I've heard, it's a disgrace, and I'd rather have the images that my book gives me than get them all messed up with images from the film. Talking animals? Young and pretty Mandy? TALL Ella?

oh summer its not thatbad then again I was shocked the first few times I watched it but my six yearold sister fell in love with took the dvd and watched I think 7 times in a row.
The music is good and from a media student prespective its a dream. And eric idol is in it. Course it did rip the story up alot but the scene where she breaks the spell in the film is fantastic even if the book is better.


And what the crud with the talking book? WHY? It's like they said, "Newbery Honor? Pshh! We're Hollywood! Nothing that wins awards from those stuffy LITERARY folks will ever do good here! Run the book through a mulcher, stir it around with some sewage, and assemble a script from that. I'll be busy hiring sexpot stars."

*Totters off, ranting and raving*

well they could hardly adapt oit purley could they so much of the book is about thought feeling and writing so they had a talking book. and the scene where she breakes the spell is goodm great even:nod:.

In fact just watch it as a completley differant story with the same name, its nothing like the book except th main concept of being forced to obey by a spell ( and the names). Yu know how in the book one of the reasons she gives is that she might be forced to kill him if anyone finds out? well the film takes te angle that she is forced to kill him and they've done some quite clever twists of thie own.

Another fairytale adaptation that I rather like is Mercedes lackeys elemental masters series. They are all fairytales ( well except maybe the last one have read that yet) but they are good but especially Serpent's shadow, got to be one of the best adaptaions to snow white ( which lets face it is hardley ever done) Ive ever got my hands on.


:D

[SummerSolstice]

Meh. I can't do it. Ella Enchanted is one of my two favorite books of all time, and it's really a lot already for me not to deeply resent Gail Carson Levine for allowing them to ravish her book--MY book--in such a way.

But speaking of Gail Carson Levine and also speaking of Snow White, have you read her (GCL, not SW :p) new book? It's called Fairest, and it's set in Ayortha, where Ella's friend Areida is from in Ella Enchanted. While nobody in their right minds would be expecting something as wonderfully beautifully fabulous as Ella, it's still the same magic all over again. It's truly lovely. I was going to ask for it for Christmas, but right now all they've got is the $18 hardback copy, which would be too much to pay when I already read it in the bookstore. o.o

[Nightshade]

Ooooo no I havent she doesnt write very much does she?

[kitkat]

i know that if i had been totally emerged into reality as a child, i would have had a mental breakdown. No, i think fantasy is good for the soul and mind, it gives someone a chance to unwind, and forget the pressures our society faces today, as long as people stay in tune with reality whats the harm? kids (even though people still call me one) should enjoy their child/teenage hood i guess. we'll be adults sooner than we may want, and by slowly introducing more and more reality to us over the years, we will be ready to face the problems the world is facing.

[ennison]

Me 'baiting' you? Hadn't even read your post blone. Have now. Hi ho hi ho it's off to work they go. Down in the bowels of the earth dark and grimy. Well I'd never want to deprive you of your desire to assassinate or cause bleeding of the eyeballs or any other Ubuesqe wish. It's a novel idea that kiddies are such psychologically stable beings that they cant be scared. That's called desensitisation in some quarters. The Thirty Years War and other wars caused starvation, lost children, dislocation, misery and ssshh cannibalism of little babes in the wood (Turn 'em on the spit -drip drip drip. See I'm desensitised too.) What the stories are now doesn't matter to me (To you yes and that's fine) Their origins interest me more because that's where the substance and the brith is. Back I go now to my maimed and cackling outcasts in the forest. If you're not a good girl the slavering dark shapes of the forest will reach out for you - An' little Orphant Annie says, when the blaze is blue,
An' the lamp-wick sputters, an' the wind goes woo-oo!
An' you hear the crickets quit, an' the moon is gray,
An' the lightnin'-bugs in dew is all squenched away, --
You better mind yer parunts, an' yer teachurs fond an' dear,
An' churish them 'at loves you, an' dry the orphant's tear,
An' he'p the pore an' needy ones 'at clusters all about,
Er the Gobble-uns 'll git you
Ef you
Don't
Watch
Out!

[SummerSolstice]

Oy. I did want to reply but I've been away with college finals. Allll done now! Yaaay!

Perhaps my words earlier had a somewhat more acerbic tone than I intended. I only asked about the baiting thing because through the red mist in front of my eyes and the frothing of the mouth, it's often hard for me to tell whether or not someone is indeed only trying to rile me up for fun when I'm in the middle of a rant. It wasn't something about you, it was my attempt not to add another episode to the list of self-embarrassments I've already accrued. Ahem. Anyway...

Notice who you said recited the little piece of verse you gave? Little Orphan Annie? A child. How about that rhyme, "The worms crawl in, the worms crawl out..." Does that sound like something an adult would come up with or find a grisly delight in? How about R.L. Stine's Goosebumps books? Ever seen a grown-up reading one of those? Playing Cowboys and Indians, playing War, playing anything where somebody gets shot or stabbed or maimed... Adults don't do that, and they don't have to convince kids to do it either.

The simple fact is that danger and fear are things that kids, no matter what any concerned analyst might think, are perfectly okay with and can handle. I, personally, always covered my ears when anybody sang the worms song, and I hurried past the Goosebumps section in the school library, but on my way to what? The Roald Dahl books! I've read, I love, and I own all his children's stories--yes, including that terrible "The Witches" one, which is quite as twisted as any old fairy tale. They not only didn't scare me, but I was surprised when my mom suggested they might scare my little brother. Why would they? I thought. It’s not like they’re real, and every story needs a villain, doesn’t it? How can you have a battle of good and evil without evil?

However, I never said kids couldn't get scared. Goodness knows as kids the only thing we're better at than getting in trouble is scaring ourselves. I said they wouldn't be scarred, as in carry a lasting and impeding psychological imprint. In other words, while something might temporarily frighten a child, it will NOT mess them up forever. People think it will, but it won't. They’re human beings, not the delicate, impressionable little sweetlings it’s so easy to assume they are. They’re not only human beings, they’re wonderfully durable human beings. They’d have to be, or mankind wouldn’t survive.

My whole argument is not that the definition of perfection relies on the presence of imperfection, or the definition of good relies on the presence of bad, simply because it’s absolutely not true. If we were still all hanging out in the Garden of Eden, we wouldn’t need badness. It’s perfectly possible to write an entertaining story of triumph without evil being involved. But stories aren’t just entertainment—they’re emotional fortification. How much strength would they give you for standing up against the uglinesses of life if all the villains were sweet and harmless? It’s not comforting to see good beat the snot out of mildly threatening. It’s very comforting to see good beat the snot out of unadulterated evil.

(Wow. That was long. THIS is what I meant by ocular-bleeding inducing rants…)

[ennison]

I enjoyed that reply from Missouri. I tend to feel that children need the veneer of civilisation. Some need a thicker veneer than others!

[SummerSolstice]

Now that is indeed true. And it's sorta my point, too. I'm not for deliberately stuffing fairy tales with evil and all... it's just, it's already there, and it's often vital to the story, and the story has so much value in its own, it makes me sad when people dink with it.

By the way... Missouri? What the crud? :lol:

[ennison]

Ah I am so glad I joined this place where I can meet people like you. At first I thought it was one of these places where American students who didn't want to read got help from those who did and then I discovered people like you- location Missouri. Wow this is soooo good.

[SummerSolstice]

I... I don't... if that's sarcasm, or something, I'm not sure what exactly it's aimed at. Is it a hillbilly joke? Or something? I'm afraid I just don't understand. It would be delightfully ironic (I think) if I could blame my lack of comprehension on hillbilly genes, 'cept I'm not originally from here. At any rate, could you please explain where my state of residence links in with what I can only guess is mockery of some kind? And also why you'd be mad at me? I took your last "Missouri" reply completely at face value, as the postscript to what I considered a friendly exchange of ideas. Was it sarcastic too? *Is confused*

Edit: Still trying to figure this out. But yeah, you referred to me as some specific, unnamed category of person. What kind of person am I? I am seriously, seriously baffled, I'm not being sarcastic.

[ennison]

Gee friend you cant get many compliments if you think I was being sarcastic! I MEANT IT.And if the avatar is you I do not believe you are short of compliments!! I guess I am a hillbilly redneck and all that - ravaged by wind and sun. I took a while to reply because I have been away. There are a large number of articulate interesting people posting here. I referred to you by location because it seemed to me to make as much sense as 'Summer Solstice' - also shorter. I apologise unreservedly for inadvertently appearing to be insincere in my compliments about your articulate intelligence. OK Debaffled now??

[Lioness_Heart]

Well, I just wanted to say that when I was younger, my favourite stories were the ones that gave a more realistic impression of the world... not, like, particularly scary or anything, but just... realistic. My favourite ever story was The Little Matchstick Girl. I think I liked it because it seemed so real, and it touched me so deeply. Children aren't stupid; they know what the real world is like. And lying to them - pretending that the world is just a happy place - seems cruel. I mean, I'm not saying that we should try to depress them or anything, but it seems futile to lie to children when they can see for themselves what the world is like. Trying to maintain this delusion really doesn't help anybody.

That probably sounds a bit weird, but I just know that when bad things were happening to me when I was younger, I took refuge in all those stories. But it wasn't the happy ones, because I just knew that they couldn't be true - the stories that were more realistic helped me because I could really understand them. That kind of brings me back to the original question, Fairytales vs. reality..which would you choose?! Fairytales are amazing, because you know that you can always come out of them... you go there to escape from reality, but you always have to come back. In a way, that is the most painful thing of all about them. But however bad fairytales can be, reality is so, so much worse... if reality were superior, there would be no need for fairytales at all... But if a fairytale became your reality, what then?

It's like it says in The Princess Bride: '"Life isn't fair, Bill. We tell our children that it is, but it's a terrible thing to do. It's not only a lie, it's a cruel lie. Life's not fair, and it never has been, and it's never going to be."'

[Nightshade]

Well thats intersting....I love fairytales already said so but happily ever after was never enough for me I always had to continue the story, one of the reasons I hate sequels so mucg I guess because Ive already decided what has happened to them and then someone else tells that I was wrong :goof:

[Bii]

Children aren't stupid; they know what the real world is like. And lying to them - pretending that the world is just a happy place - seems cruel. I mean, I'm not saying that we should try to depress them or anything, but it seems futile to lie to children when they can see for themselves what the world is like. Trying to maintain this delusion really doesn't help anybody.

Fairytales are not about lying to children, or realism, or anything like that. Fairytales are a way of using the expansive imagination that children have, and giving them a moral, social, or survival message in a context which will engage them and that they can understand and work through for themselves. In that respect, fairytales work with the 'reality' for children who's world exists as much in their imagination as the 'reality' that adults deal with on a day to day basis.

And if we're concerned about deluding children, how about we get rid of "Father Christmas" and the "Tooth Fairy" too?

I couldn't imagine a world without stories, whether they are fairytales or otherwise, and to deny this to children would be crazy. Neither can you chose between reality and fairytales, because fairytales are part of our reality, particularly for children, but fortunately for adults too.

If anyone is interested in a slightly modern twist on classic fairytales I'd recommend you read any of the short story collections by Angela Carter - particularly "The Black Chamber" which is a curious mixture of horror and modernised fairytales.

[Lioness_Heart]

I agree that fairytales are an important part of every society, but they only work if there is some human realism there too: the best way to engage and develop a child's imagination is to base a story - however fantastical - on some realistic common ground. That realism often has to come from human nature, which, let's face it, isn't always that great. But even the saddest fairytales have a poignant happiness to them, which lets children know that there is always hope.
Great, enduring novels like Frankenstein are so good because they can be 'modern' to practically any age or culture. And one of the reasons for this is that they are based on enduring issues that recur throughout time, like that of human nature. Also, its nature as a cautionary novel leads it to caution on the darkest sides of human existance. In a way, that is what the old fairytales did too, and their universlity based on the horrors of existance is what has made them so enduring.
I still love fairytales, and I agree that sometimes snuggling down on the sofa and watching a Disney film is great, especially when you're watching it with kids. However, my point is that pretending that everything is fair, and everyone has a happy ending is unfair. If children are sucked into the delusion that there can be a happy ending, then it's going to be even harder for them to come to terms with the realities of existance.
I want to believe in a happy ending as much as anyone else, and when I have kids, I want them to grow up happy and secure in the world. But the thing is that they may become more secure by being told a version of fantasy that is closer to the truth.

[andave_ya]

Well, hm, I'm sort of out of my depth here. I'm 15 years old, and I know for myself, I prefer fairytales. I'm taking an art appreciation class,and not too long ago we discussed realism. "Define realism." the professor said. In the end, he defined realism as an artist's obligation to show the unpleasant aspects of life. In that case, then, a fairy tale, showing at least some of the unpleasant aspects of life, is realistic. Certainly not all curveballs of life will be caught and solved in time like in the fairy tales, but that doesn't mean fairy tales are unrealistic. Things don't always end happily but they will some times, so, keep looking up! I guess what I'm trying to say in a nutshell that fairy tales are as realistic as you want them to be. Either look on the bright side or on the dark.

[Lioness_Heart]

I guess what I'm trying to say in a nutshell that fairy tales are as realistic as you want them to be. Either look on the bright side or on the dark.

lol. I see your point, and think that it is true.

I think that I was feeling a bit depressed when I wrote those previous posts. The thing is, though, that I never liked being lied to as a child (well, I'm 16 now - hardly ancient, but anyway...) what I hated was that people would tell you stories saying that everything is ok, and then go and do something horrible... I always used to feel betrayed by this, because I then felt that I was being lied to.

I'm not quite sure what my point is. But either way, fairytales are good, but just better if firmly steeped in reality, not in an imagination-impeding way, but rather from a human point of view.

[ennison]

Personally I prefer realism but fairy tales have their place and are a literary trace element in a reading diet. Yer reader's bones wouldn't get big and strong without knowing about Snow White and unicorns and wolves that ate up old ladies and dark creepy forests where traps lie in wait for the unwary and quests for magic waters and enchanted maidens and innocence subjected to betrayal and lonely imprisoning towers and magic numbers chants 'n refrains and sleepers suspended in time and all of that that is in your head as a reader

[Nightshade]

But aside from all that fairy tales are often a rough frame work that great books are written around, and if you had no knowledge of them youd miss a crucial dimention. Also if you think about it a fairytale is the baseline most simple generalisation that we can all understand a cultural referance point if you like:D

[ennison]

I agree Nightshade. They are archetypes. They vary a bit from culture to culture but they act as templates upon which more adult stories are laid down.

[rae_of_light]

I read lots of fairytales when I was younger (still do read them!), and I don't think that I sustained any permanent damage from not learning of the 'real world' sooner than I did! Without fairytales, I don't think I would have developed the love of reading that I have today. I don't know about you, but I read to escape from the real world. What is the fun in reading if you are just re-visiting everything you read in the newspaper that morning???

[andave_ya]

That hit it right on the nose, rae!!

[Lily Adams]

I was never really "censored" much from anything. Major things, a little bit, but my dad just has this "You'll have to face it sooner or later" attitude. And he's right, I think. it just stinks when you don't have innocence anymore. That's really all the consequence is, isn't it?

Well, I think maybe it prepared me a bit more. I watched the news when I was little. It also made me think and philosohize a bit, (Haha, a philosophical five-year-old.) so it did expand my horizons. I asked questions like, "Why is there so much violence?" and "Why are some people so poor?". So I think it's quite a benefit in the end, even though it, like all things, has downsides.