Varenka

[grace86]

I was wondering if anyone could tell me the book and chapter in Anna Karenina where Varenka has the children in the woods and where there was a "moment" that passed between her and Koznyshev-am I right that it was him?

I would look it up, but I am working and just don't have the time. Thank you in advance.

[bazarov]

http://www.online-literature.com/tolstoy/anna_karenina/161/

If link is incorrect, book 6., chapter 4. and then it goes...
Is it OK?

[grace86]

Thank you bazarov...what I was looking for was actually in the next chapter, but I wouldn't have found it if you had not first told me where to look. I was looking for this:


"What is the difference between the 'birch' mushroom and the 'white' mushroom?"

Varenka's lips quivered with emotion as she answered:

"In the top part there is scarcely any difference, it's in the stalk."

And as soon as these words were uttered, both he and she felt that it was over, that what was to have been said would not be said; and their emotion, which had up to then been continually growing more intense, began to subside.

Thank you!

[Idril]

It's amazing how quickly those major decisions were made, wasn't it? And what minor happenings could bring them about. The Victorians were the same way, it must be a 19th century thing. ;)

[bazarov]

It's not a 19th century thing, it's a human thing. I hope you'll never experinece something like that:(

[grace86]

I would hope not, I've already got my sweetie....hmm that would really be awful!

[Idril]

It's not a 19th century thing, it's a human thing. I hope you'll never experinece something like that:(

Maybe it's the norwegian lutheran in me but that kind of rash thinking and action seem so foreign. ;) And I think that may be one of the reasons why I love Russian literature so much because that kind of passion is just not something I grew up with and I'm not just talking about romantic passion but passion for life, the ability to feel and express very intense emotions because that's just something Norwegian lutherans do not do. ;) :p

But I do think it's odd for a decision like whether or not you're going to marry someone to be decided while you're talking about mushrooms and then never to think about it or reconsider it. I understand having wild thoughts like, 'Man, did you see the way he ate that taco? I don't think I can spend the rest of my life with someone who eats a taco like that" but generally, there is more thought put into than that, it's an impulse thought and maybe at some point you will decide you can't marry someone who eats a taco like that but at least you've thought about it. Koznyshev and Varenka were so close to marriage, a few minutes before that conversation took place, he was ready to propose and she was ready to accept and then because of some weird vibe, they're both just done...I just can't imagine something that important being decided in that manner.

[grace86]

Idril I understand what you are saying. To have the fate of whether or not you get married determined by something so stupid as mushrooms...well that is kind of dumb. Consider the fact that they were never involved with each other either...the potential of any further thought - not just a proposal - was totally killed because of a sentence. To take it literally, they didn't even know eachother.

Maybe that is the part of the story that makes it unrealistic. In real life, you have to put up with moments that kill the passion every once in awhile, but that doesn't mean that the way your guy eats a taco should kill any future potential at passion...hmm...:lol:

Now that I think about it, I wonder why that scene was put in there. Any thoughts on a deeper, more philosophical meaning to it?

[bazarov]

If you can remember situation between Koznyshev and Varenka, she liked him very much and he did like her also. When he stayed alone with his thougths, he asked him self is Varenka worth enough for losing his peace, freedom and memory on his wife Marya. His conclusion was: NO, SHE'S NOT!
Little after that, they were left alone in that ''mushroom situatuon'', so they can tell thier feelings to each other. Varenka waited for something like:'' I love you, will you be my wife...?'' and Koznyshev knew that but he didn't want that, so he told her something totally different: "What is the difference between the 'birch' mushroom and the 'white' mushroom?" She knew, and he knew that now she had realized that there won't be anything between them. He told her that; it was said in different words, but the meaning was very clear to her, it was his way of telling the things without hurting her. Mushrooms were just a subject he used for his words. It could be anything: horses, flowers, dogs, etc. But Tolstoy decided it will be mushrooms, and mushrooms it was.

[downing]

If you can remember situation between Koznyshev and Varenka, she liked him very much and he did like her also. When he stayed alone with his thougths, he asked him self is Varenka worth enough for losing his peace, freedom and memory on his wife Marya. His conclusion was: NO, SHE'S NOT!
Little after that, they were left alone in that ''mushroom situatuon'', so they can tell thier feelings to each other. Varenka waited for something like:'' I love you, will you be my wife...?'' and Koznyshev knew that but he didn't want that, so he told her something totally different: "What is the difference between the 'birch' mushroom and the 'white' mushroom?" She knew, and he knew that now she had realized that there won't be anything between them. He told her that; it was said in different words, but the meaning was very clear to her, it was his way of telling the things without hurting her. Mushrooms were just a subject he used for his words. It could be anything: horses, flowers, dogs, etc. But Tolstoy decided it will be mushrooms, and mushrooms it was.


Bazarov, that's a great point of view. I have finished A K a few weeks ago and I loved it. I liked a lot this part of the book, the conversation between Varenka and Koznyshev. It seemed so malancholy... and sad.
But I liked your idea; that Koznyshev used mushrooms to show Varenka that he can't marry her, to express his feelings. That's a very insightful analysis, I really liked it and I think you're right.:nod:

[bazarov]

Bazarov, that's a great point of view. I have finished A K a few weeks ago and I loved it. I liked a lot this part of the book, the conversation between Varenka and Koznyshev. It seemed so malancholy... and sad.
But I liked your idea; that Koznyshev used mushrooms to show Varenka that he can't marry her, to express his feelings. That's a very insightful analysis, I really liked it and I think you're right.:nod:


Downing, thank you very much, I was really sad when I saw that grace86 and Idril don't agree with me:bawling: You just made my day happier!

[downing]

Oh,you're flattering me! :) But I'm glad you found someone who understood. Your ideas are very important for me in this thread, because I know you're a very big Russian reader and critique ;) Keep on analysing, you do it very well.

[bazarov]

I'm not Belinsky, but I'm doing my best:D
Now you really made my weekend!

[Idril]

Downing, thank you very much, I was really sad when I saw that grace86 and Idril don't agree with me:bawling: You just made my day happier!

I wouldn't say I didn't agree with you Baz, I just didn't look at it that deeply. Like the 'initial' scene with Kitty and Levin, there seems to be some sort of, almost telepathy going on between the characters that just seems somehow supernatural. That they could both understand what Koznyshev was saying with his cryptic mushroom talk is quite amazing and I think speaks of a significant connection, it seems a shame he wasn't able to overcome whatever it was that kept him from proposing.

[grace86]

Downing, thank you very much, I was really sad when I saw that grace86 and Idril don't agree with me:bawling: You just made my day happier!

Uh hem... ;) I don't remember disagreeing with you. In fact, I don't think I ever got back to replying to your thoughts. So sorry baz.

That scene continues to be one of my most favorite and heart felt scenes...real life experiences touch on it a bit so I can understand your thoughts on it.

[bazarov]

That they could both understand what Koznyshev was saying with his cryptic mushroom talk is quite amazing and I think speaks of a significant connection, it seems a shame he wasn't able to overcome whatever it was that kept him from proposing.

They doesn't have any special connection...It's nothing cryptic, Idril; it's totally normal. He used mushrooms to say he doesn't want to marry her, he didn't won't to hurt her too much.

[Idril]

I do find it cryptic. If someone used mushrooms to end a relationship with me, I would be completely and utterly confused, I would probably respond with, "What the heck is that supposed to mean?" :lol: but she just accepted and understood it. I know women were in a different position then, their fates were in the hands of others so I suppose it's not like she had a lot to say in the matter but still, I stand by my original impression, that it's kind of weird. Poetic, yes, nonconfrontational, yes, perhaps even kind but odd nonetheless. I do like your explanation of it though, it does make it seem, at least a little bit, less weird. :p

[bazarov]

I do find it cryptic. If someone used mushrooms to end arelationship with me, I would be completely and utterly confused, I would probably respond with, "What the heck is that supposed to mean?" :lol: but she just accepted and understood it.

For end, there has to be a start...She realized it, and there was nothing she could do.


I know women were in a different position then, their fates were in the hands of others

She wasn't helpless, nobody forced her to anything and nobody controlled her.

[Idril]

She wasn't helpless, nobody forced her to anything and nobody controlled her.

I didn't mean to imply she was helpless but because of her social position, she wasn't really in a place to press her suit, like you, yourself said, there was nothing she could do but accept.

I'll tell you what my first impressions were about that scene. To me, he seemed like someone dealing with an addiction, not literally of course, just figuratively, someone who was struggling with self-destructive tendencies and behavior and they see the path they should take, the path that may be harder but will ultimately be more rewarding and he sets his sights on that path but once it gets right down to it, he can't follow through and instead of just owning up to it, telling Verenka that while he has feelings for her and thought they could make a go of it, in the end he just can't give up his current way of life, he takes the coward's way out and starts talking about mushrooms. Your interpretation makes me see that there is another, equally valid way of looking at it but it seems to be a very romantic view and since I'm not even remotely a romantic but very much a realist, I tend to look at his inability to be straight forward with her as weakness and not kindness. However, I have no need to think my interpretation of it is right. ;) :lol:

[bazarov]

You left that romance behind you, ha granny?:lol:
Well, I'm much younger and I probably see some things different(what would we discuss if we all would think the same), but maybe I am wrong?
Your wisdom is maybe more powerful than my youth, but you surely had some doubts when you were my age; lucky you if you hadn't.

[Idril]

You left that romance behind you, ha granny?:lol:
Well, I'm much younger and I probably see some things different(what would we discuss if we all would think the same), but maybe I am wrong?
Your wisdom is maybe more powerful than my youth, but you surely had some doubts when you were my age; lucky you if you hadn't.

That's very true, I have been jaded by life experience and disappointment, just you wait until you get old and bitter, then maybe you'll look at it a different way. ;) :lol: And I'm not quite sure how I feel about that granny comment, I'm not that old. :p :D

[bazarov]

That's very true, I have been jaded by life experience and disappointment, just you wait until you get old and bitter, then maybe you'll look at it a different way. ;) :lol: And I'm not quite sure how I feel about that granny comment, I'm not that old. :p :D

I already feel very old...I am kidding, my old friend!:D

[downing]

I read this discussion a few times and thought about it. You're both right and definitely your views are different because of the age.
Like Baz,my young age makes me think that the ''romantic'' interpretation fits better, but yours, Idril, is also true. There could be many interpretations, and that's really well, because that makes us debating over here, doesn't it? That's the goal of LitNet: to make us share ideas.:) What do you think about re-reading Anna Karenina twenty years later, come on the same thread and discuss what does that scene makes us feel. :lol: :) I'm not joking, it might sound crazy, but a disscusion like this looks very really interesting and fun for me.

[bazarov]

I am afraid that after 20 years, I will read this and maybe think: was I really that stupid???:lol: I know how some ideas were changed in last 2-3 years, but in 20...It's too much. I think we create our personality until 22-23, after that small changes can happen. I doubt that I will achieve some spiritual reborn like Levin or Raskolnikov, but again; who knows?

[downing]

I do understand your fears. I am also worried what would I believe about this subject 20 years later. Changes always make me feel strange. I guess that's part of my personality. But not all kinds of changes. For example, I like to travel and to read different kinds of books. I think I'm afraid of the IDEA which alters as time passes.

[bazarov]

No matter how clever you are, you're still 14...From now on, every day and every book will create mess in your head and in 10 years will see who you are.
Probably someone totally different than today, or maybe you'll stay the same. I think I stayed almost the same, but my friends then say: Buddy, once you were normal child...:lol: :lol: Looks that's how the things are going.

[downing]

I understand and I guess you're right.


Buddy, once you were normal child...:lol: :lol:


:lol: :lol: