Marcus Aurelius's meditations

[Nightshade]

Well I bought this the other day and started reading it, what I want to know is how does it classify that is what is it exactly?

[Virgil]

I think it's a great work. It tends to be classified as a philosophic work, but not some abstract, removed from real life stuff like Plato. It's more a down to earth advice on how to lead your life.

[Nightshade]

well so far I like it
:D:D

[Nightwalk]

I've read excerpts from it, and recall being impressed by the wisdom the Roman Emperor calmly imparts.

[mono]

I have intended to get around to reading Marcus Aurelius for some time. Stoicism, though I do not consider myself a follower, has long fascinated me, and he, allegedly, had a great influence on one of my favorite philosophers, John Stuart Mill. With this, as I hoped to get some book shopping done soon, I will pick up a copy of his Meditations. ;)

[abirpal]

hi! Excitedly Picked up a copy of Meditations after references to it in contemporary texts and movies like Silence of the Lambs. Think it is over-rated and parts are very abstract and obtuse. But its good to skim through and parts are interesting..very much like another ancient strategy classic Art of War.

[Nightshade]

so far Ive read book 1 ( which is just an enoroumus acknowledgment isnt it?) and book 2 and a little of 3

Is it just me or does he go on a bit about ending your life? and does that mean suicide or does he mean just dying?

** Ive decided to tackle this as a Virgil style project :D Im going to spend a year on it and related things, but its still confusing! **

:nod:

[ShoutGrace]

I found one of his meditations on "death" postively comforting . . . . he talks about how death is a part of the natural cycle, something that always has been and always will be, and how we ought not to fear it . . . . as it is something that Nature wills.

I have been looking around but haven't found a copy near me . . . I'll have to buy a brand new one. :(

[Nightshade]

Can we have a copy of Marcus Aurelius's Meditations? and if so can we the maxwell Staniforth translation if possible?
Or do differant transalition versions have differant copyrights??


thanks:D

[Nightshade]

So far Ive read the first 4 books twice.

....People should not be sharply corrected for bad grammer,provincialisims, or misprounciation; it is better to suggest the proper expression by tactfully introducing itoneself in, say, one's reply to a question or one's acquiescence in their sentiments, or into friendly discussion of the topic itself (not of the diction), or some other suitable form of reminder. (bk1:10)

Hippocrates cured the ills of many, but himself took ill and died. The Chaldeans foretold the deaths of many, but fate caught up with them also. \Alexander, Pompey, and Julius Caeser laid waste whole cities time and again.... Heraclitus speculated endlessly on the consumption of the universe by fire, but in the end it was water that saturated his body, and he died in dung-plaster. Democritus was destroyed by vermin; Socrates by vermin of another kind. And the moral of it all? This. You embark; you make the voyage; you reach port: step ashore, then..... (bk3:3)

Treat with respect the power you have to form an opinion.....(bk3:9)

As surgeons keep their lancets and scalpes always at hand for the sudden demands of their craft, so keep your principles constantly in readiness for the understanding of things both human and divine;.....(bk3:13)

Many grains of incense fall on the same altar: one sooner, another later- it makes no differance. (bk4:15)


Ive loved reading this so far ( even though I cant cope with more than a few pages at a time on first read). I was having an internal dialogue as it were. I was reading and nodding my head or tutting.
And ( yes it wierd and proves that Im on this site more than is healthy) I kept attributing certain of the thoughts to people here virgil came up alot ( not suprising really) I had a hand ful of robins a couple of logoses.
I was desprate for my internet to get on here and talk about all the interesting things , but I can be bothred to type up some of the really interesting things ( too long). Can we have an online version please??


I found one of his meditations on "death" postively comforting . . . . he talks about how death is a part of the natural cycle, something that always has been and always will be, and how we ought not to fear it . . . . as it is something that Nature wills.

The more I read about his views on death the more I understand what you mean and agree with you. But it wasnt his views on death I was talking about what. I meant this:


In all you do or say or think, recollect that at any time the power of withdrawal from life is in your own hands. If gods exsist you have noting to fear in taking leave of mankind, for they will not let you come to harm....

I like the brotherhood of humanity and all the world is one city idea. In fact I have to say I like alot of this. :D

[Admin]

Different translations do have different copyrights. The translation needs to be atleast around 80 years old in general.

[grace86]

Why did you guys have to put another book on my list...I have so many!! But it's not LitNet's fault...:D

I read some selections from Aurelius and I remember liking them very much. I guess I will have to pick up a copy soon.

[Mary Sue]

A great Roman emperor AND a great intellect too. You didn't often get the two things together in one package!

[Nightshade]

I suspected as much. Thanks:D

[grace86]

Hey Night, do you strongly recommend that translator? Thinking of picking it up.

[Nightshade]

well Ive just strated but its really clear and simple to understand as compared to the older online versions.
Its the penguin books Great ideas version.

:D:D

[Daniel A. C.]

I like the Meditations. Fascinating to think that these are the reflections of an Emperor, esp. that of an Empire like Rome - in fact, the Meditations was not intended a public work, but is actually the diary of Aurelius. I've always wanted to do some research and see how the life of Marcus Aurelius matched up to the ideals of his journal.

However, I think that the Discourses and Handbook of Epictetus are better expositions to Stoicism. Epictetus was a freed slave who was exiled from Rome, and began teaching philosophy in Greece. The Discourses and Handbook were written by a student of his, Arrian, in the form of impromptu diatribes that are so vivid and direct that one can easily imagine the force and character of this unusual teacher.

They are not set out systematically, but rather revolve around certain core ideas. Epictetus is adamant that suffering and happiness to not exist in external things (which Epictetus continually reminds us, "are not up to us") but in how the mind responds to the impressions it recieves. With discipline, he argues, we can master the handling of these external perceptions, as see things as they are, and no longer be distressed by them.

Interesting to see how Epictetus sees himself as a follower of previous philosophers, like Diogenes the Cynic, and of Socrates - fascinating that Plato seemed to take Socrates more as a guide to knowledge and understanding, Epictetus takes him as a guide to wise living.

One Stoic I don't know much about, Cicero: does anyone have any opinions on him or his writings?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epictetus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicero

[Nightwalk]

Hello Daniel A.C.. I've always had Epictetus at the back of my mind, and reading your post gives me the inclination to look further into his work.

Cicero is a very good read, particularly his speeches. His philosophy from what I recall is fine, but it's in his oratorical skills where to me his legacy truely lies. His speeches against Mark Anthony and Clodia Metelli ( the notorious Lesbia, immortalized in Catullus' poems ) are among the most compelling reads I have come across, full of reason, invective, wit, and humor. His letters are wonderful, in the sense that they survived and they give a fascinating glimpse into the social, cultural, and everyday life of the Roman world.

[ShoutGrace]

The more I read about his views on death the more I understand what you mean and agree with you.

It's great, isn't it?

"Never, then, will a thinking man view death lightly, impatiently, or scornfully; he will wait for it as but one more of Nature's processes. Even as you await the baby's emergence from the womb or your wife, so await the hour when the little soul shall glide forth from it's sheath."

:banana: :banana:



But it wasnt his views on death I was talking about what. I meant this:

In all you do or say or think, recollect that at any time the power of withdrawal from life is in your own hands. If gods exsist you have noting to fear in taking leave of mankind, for they will not let you come to harm...


Ugh. I really don't like these kinds of things. I won't make any sweeping comments on suicide here, but it is interesting that Aurelius speaks so simply of it. How do you like this one?

"A man of finer feelings would have taken leave of the world before ever sampling it's falsehood, double-dealing, luxury, and pride; but now that all these have been tasted satiety, the next best course would be to end your life forthwith. Or are you really resolved to go on dwelling in the midst of iniquity, and has not experience yet persuaded you to flee from from this pestilence?"


Nightshade, what do you think of his use of the word "man" and not "woman", and how all his examples find male equivalences (like the wife metaphor above)? It's all fine and well that he wrote that way, and acceptable and everything (to me), but how do you read it? Do you just replace words in your head?

[ShoutGrace]

I've read out of the Staniforth translation and out of some older and newer ones, as well.

Some of the newer ones are just abominable, in my opinion. They truly do dumb the language down and impart their own conceptions into the text. It's akin to reading a "thought for thought" or "modern language" Bible translation. They make the language "easier to read" and in doing so butcher it. The text is as it is . . . when you change it to make it more passingly apprehendable, you lose a lot of the thought, uniquity and beauty of the words, in my opinion.

For that reason only, I prefer the old translations.

[Virgil]

I always liked the Aurelius shows respect and love to his family, especially his father. In honor of my father, here's that particular passage:


In my father I observed mildness of temper, and unchangeable resolution in the things which he had determined after due deliberation; and no vainglory in those things which men call honours; and a love of labour and perseverance; and a readiness to listen to those who had anything to propose for the common weal; and undeviating firmness in giving to every man according to his deserts; and a knowledge derived from experience of the occasions for vigorous action and for remission. And I observed that he had overcome all passion for boys; and he considered himself no more than any other citizen; and he released his friends from all obligation to sup with him or to attend him of necessity when he went abroad, and those who had failed to accompany him, by reason of any urgent circumstances, always found him the same. I observed too his habit of careful inquiry in all matters of deliberation, and his persistency, and that he never stopped his investigation through being satisfied with appearances which first present themselves; and that his disposition was to keep his friends, and not to be soon tired of them, nor yet to be extravagant in his affection; and to be satisfied on all occasions, and cheerful; and to foresee things a long way off, and to provide for the smallest without display; and to check immediately popular applause and all flattery; and to be ever watchful over the things which were necessary for the administration of the empire, and to be a good manager of the expenditure, and patiently to endure the blame which he got for such conduct; and he was neither superstitious with respect to the gods, nor did he court men by gifts or by trying to please them, or by flattering the populace; but he showed sobriety in all things and firmness, and never any mean thoughts or action, nor love of novelty. And the things which conduce in any way to the commodity of life, and of which fortune gives an abundant supply, he used without arrogance and without excusing himself; so that when he had them, he enjoyed them without affectation, and when he had them not, he did not want them. No one could ever say of him that he was either a sophist or a home-bred flippant slave or a pedant; but every one acknowledged him to be a man ripe, perfect, above flattery, able to manage his own and other men's affairs. Besides this, he honoured those who were true philosophers, and he did not reproach those who pretended to be philosophers, nor yet was he easily led by them. He was also easy in conversation, and he made himself agreeable without any offensive affectation. He took a reasonable care of his body's health, not as one who was greatly attached to life, nor out of regard to personal appearance, nor yet in a careless way, but so that, through his own attention, he very seldom stood in need of the physician's art or of medicine or external applications. He was most ready to give way without envy to those who possessed any particular faculty, such as that of eloquence or knowledge of the law or of morals, or of anything else; and he gave them his help, that each might enjoy reputation according to his deserts; and he always acted conformably to the institutions of his country, without showing any affectation of doing so. Further, he was not fond of change nor unsteady, but he loved to stay in the same places, and to employ himself about the same things; and after his paroxysms of headache he came immediately fresh and vigorous to his usual occupations. His secrets were not but very few and very rare, and these only about public matters; and he showed prudence and economy in the exhibition of the public spectacles and the construction of public buildings, his donations to the people, and in such things, for he was a man who looked to what ought to be done, not to the reputation which is got by a man's acts. He did not take the bath at unseasonable hours; he was not fond of building houses, nor curious about what he ate, nor about the texture and colour of his clothes, nor about the beauty of his slaves. His dress came from Lorium, his villa on the coast, and from Lanuvium generally. We know how he behaved to the toll-collector at Tusculum who asked his pardon; and such was all his behaviour. There was in him nothing harsh, nor implacable, nor violent, nor, as one may say, anything carried to the sweating point; but he examined all things severally, as if he had abundance of time, and without confusion, in an orderly way, vigorously and consistently. And that might be applied to him which is recorded of Socrates, that he was able both to abstain from, and to enjoy, those things which many are too weak to abstain from, and cannot enjoy without excess. But to be strong enough both to bear the one and to be sober in the other is the mark of a man who has a perfect and invincible soul, such as he showed in the illness of Maximus.

[grace86]

Thanks Nightshade and ShoutGrace...guess I will just have to read a selection from different versions before I pick it up then. That would be cool to have it on the site though.

[Nightshade]

Nightshade, what do you think of his use of the word "man" and not "woman", and how all his examples find male equivalences (like the wife metaphor above)? It's all fine and well that he wrote that way, and acceptable and everything (to me), but how do you read it? Do you just replace words in your head?

Oh david!:lol: ((g))I was trying really hard, really I was, Not to mention this! Before I start raging on about sexisim and inequality and the bigoted stupidity of men etc etc Id like to point yeah I realise time culture etc etc plus the very languge. I mean I seem to rember reading somwhere the fact that the words for father lord and master are all the same.(9?) And every time I come a cross the "black heart, womanish heart" sections I equally split between lauging and wanting to invent a time machine and going to make him eat his own words.:rolleyes:
But generally I just supstitute or take it as I find it men being the general term for humans:D:D!


I always liked the Aurelius shows respect and love to his family, especially his father. In honor of my father, here's that particular passage:
Yes that was nice :nod:

[ShoutGrace]

I was trying really hard, really I was, Not to mention this!

Oh, I had an inkling. I just wanted to relieve you and say it for you. :D




Id like to point yeah I realise time culture etc etc plus the very languge.

Which is why you and I don't find it offensive at all. :lol: Right? At least most of the time, I see:


And every time I come a cross the "black heart, womanish heart" sections I equally split between lauging and wanting to invent a time machine and going to make him eat his own words.:rolleyes:

Meanwhile, as us men read those passages, we chortle, clear our throats and take another pull on our cigars, reflecting on what a thoroughly genius insight Aurelius had into every woman's psyche / being. ;)


But generally I just supstitute or take it as I find it men being the general term for humans:D:D!

I'm overjoyed that you are mature and congenial enough to do this. :D

I know some who would denigrate and avoid this work on principle. :bawling:



I always liked the Aurelius shows respect and love to his family, especially his father. In honor of my father, here's that particular passage:

Yes, I agree, thank you Virgil.

Can I ask where you took the words from? I don't imagine you typed them all out yourself . . .

[Virgil]

Yes, I agree, thank you Virgil.

Can I ask where you took the words from? I don't imagine you typed them all out yourself . . .

I did a search and it was on the internet. Here: http://classics.mit.edu/Antoninus/meditations.html

[ShoutGrace]

I did a search and it was on the internet. Here: http://classics.mit.edu/Antoninus/meditations.html


Thats what I was hoping for. Thank you kindly, Virgil :D. How does this translation by George Long compare to the one that you have or read earlier? What are your thoughts on it?

[Nightshade]

I've read out of the Staniforth translation and out of some older and newer ones, as well.

Some of the newer ones are just abominable, in my opinion. They truly do dumb the language down and impart their own conceptions into the text. It's akin to reading a "thought for thought" or "modern language" Bible translation. They make the language "easier to read" and in doing so butcher it. The text is as it is . . . when you change it to make it more passingly apprehendable, you lose a lot of the thought, uniquity and beauty of the words, in my opinion.

For that reason only, I prefer the old translations.

Rats! that never occured to me, now Im going to have to read an old version too. *sigh*

[ShoutGrace]

Rats! that never occured to me, now Im going to have to read an old version too. *sigh*

It's not the biggest deal in the world :D. You might want to keep a newer translation and an older translation handy, and read them both at the same time, if you have the inclination. I mean, read two or three passages out of the newer and then the same passages out of the older. It will increase your comprehension and your enjoyment as well (at the expense of time and effort).

I actually like the Staniforth translation. :nod:

[Nightshade]

. You might want to keep a newer translation and an older translation handy, and read them both at the same time, if you have the inclination. I mean, read two or three passages out of the newer and then the same passages out of the older.:

errrrrrrr no! I'm no where near that confidant yet.That would cook my brain! maybe when I get a better handle on this philosphy malarky I might try that.:D

[Logos]

Marcus Aurelius (A.D. 161-180) is on the list to be added to the site :) and I will move this to the Philosophical Literature section now.

[Nightshade]

YAY!!!:banana: :banana: ummm Logos there is another thread under general lit. :blush:
:D

[Logos]

I've merged them now :lol: they might not *quite* make sense, but I think more helpful/easier than having two topics. It's rare that a Book Request topic goes into a long discussion :)