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bazarov
08-26-2006, 02:53 PM
Hello everyone! I've read War and Peace during my summer holidays wich were very long and sunny, and i found something which confuses me. Now, what is the problem???

In book nine, year 1812., were Pierre is studying some cabalistic numbers ((http://www.online-literature.com/tolstoy/war_and_peace/186/)), is writen the French alphabet with their numeric value...

The French alphabet, written out with the same numerical values as the Hebrew, in which the first nine letters denote units and the others tens, will have the following significance:

a b c d e f g h i k
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
l m n o p q r s
20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90
t u v w x y
100 110 120 130 140 150
z
160

Now, you maybe didn't noticed that letter J is missing. But French alphabet has J in alphabet. So where is J???

In my book, is written like this:
a b c d e f g h i j
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
k l m n o p r s
20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90
t u v w x y
100 110 120 130 140 150
z
160

If you look very carefully, you'll see that q is missing...But Q is in Frenc alphabet!?!?!?!WHERE IS Q!?!?!?!:flare:

bazarov
08-26-2006, 02:55 PM
Hello everyone! I've read War and Peace during my summer holidays wich were very long and sunny, and i found something which confuses me. Now, what is the problem???

In book nine, year 1812., were Pierre is studying some cabalistic numbers http://www.online-literature.com/tolstoy/war_and_peace/186/, is writen the French alphabet with their numeric value...

The French alphabet, written out with the same numerical values as the Hebrew, in which the first nine letters denote units and the others tens, will have the following significance:

a b c d e f g h i k
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
l m n o p q r s
20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90
t u v w x y
100 110 120 130 140 150
z
160

Now, you maybe didn't noticed that letter J is missing. But French alphabet has J in alphabet. So where is J???

In my book, is written like this:
a b c d e f g h i j
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
k l m n o p r s
20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90
t u v w x y
100 110 120 130 140 150
z
160

If you look very carefully, you'll see that q is missing...But Q is in Frenc alphabet!?!?!?!WHERE IS Q!?!?!?!:flare:

Sorry for letter-number positions, it's forums guilt, not my;)

ShoutGrace
08-26-2006, 03:28 PM
bazarov, your address was a little off. I couldn't get to where you wanted me to by following the link you provided. Is this the page (http://www.online-literature.com/tolstoy/war_and_peace/186)) you are looking for?

Sorry, don't have the answer yet. ;)

*E D I T*

It appears that the letters "I" and "J" both correspond with the letter 9, though I've no idea why (perhaps because they are similar, and both pathetic, slender little letters by themselves :p ) and that the letter "Q" corresponds to the number "70".

BTW:

Writing the words L'Empereur Napoleon in numbers, it appears that the sum of them is 666, and that Napoleon was therefore the beast foretold in the Apocalypse.

(?) :D

L'Empereur Napoleon, of course, is French for The Emperor Napoleon. The identification with Napoleon only succeeds if the e in Le, dropped by elision in L'Empereur, is restored:

What translation are you reading, bazarov?

bazarov
08-26-2006, 06:23 PM
I'm reading Croatian translation. Page will do now, I've corrected it, but your page is also correct, well done:thumbs_up

Boris239
08-27-2006, 12:13 PM
Ok, I have no idea what's wrong with "j", but I looked up the Russian original, and it still has the same omission of "j".

bazarov
08-27-2006, 03:09 PM
Ok, I have no idea what's wrong with "j", but I looked up the Russian original, and it still has the same omission of "j".

Yes, I also found J missing in cyrilic version. But why is J missing?:bawling: :crash:

Logos
08-27-2006, 04:10 PM
It is also missing in the Gutenberg etext version, which is the same as on this site.

Boris239
08-28-2006, 12:26 AM
This mistake is mentioned on one of the sites I found. I guess the question is if this is Tolstoy's mistake or Pierre's- after all if he had done it correctly, there would have been no interesting results.

bazarov
08-28-2006, 09:04 AM
But you can't write something wrong just because it will be interesting, this is Tolstoy, not Dan Brown:flare: . Maybe Tolstoy hoped that nobody will notice that, I don't know, I just don't understand why, how...??? We can't about Pierre's mistake, Tolstoy created him...That means that second half of War and Peace was based on big and fixed mistake( I see Pierre as a main character, and he wouldn't go to Moscow with intention to kill Napoleon if there weren't those letter-numbers...).
Something like that would never happend to Dostoevsky...:lol:

Boris239
08-28-2006, 11:12 AM
Maybe Tolstoy wants to show that all this mystical arithmancy isn't worth anything. Pierre thinks that it's his destiny to stop Napoleon, but Tolstoy clearly thinks that history is determined not by individuals and shows that all Pierre's conclusions were based on a simple mistake.

bazarov
08-28-2006, 02:00 PM
Maybe...Tolstoy said that everything is accidentally, and this would be destiny, like Pierre says. But no, I can't accept that!!! What if somebody didn't notice that J is missing and now is thinking how Pierre is brave instead of thinking how Pierre is stupid...:lol:
Sorry, I'm talking it too much to my heart:lol:

bazarov
09-13-2006, 04:05 AM
Maybe Tolstoy wants to show that all this mystical arithmancy isn't worth anything. Pierre thinks that it's his destiny to stop Napoleon, but Tolstoy clearly thinks that history is determined not by individuals and shows that all Pierre's conclusions were based on a simple mistake.

Idea came to me! If Q is missing, Pierre would notice that in solving quantre deux = 666 q is missing...What now?:crash: :bawling: :brickwall

conniekat8
04-09-2007, 04:18 PM
Yes, I also found J missing in cyrilic version. But why is J missing?:bawling: :crash:

As a hint... I believe that at that time in Russia, what sounded as J was not really used as today's J... for example... what in some languages is Tolstoj in others is Tolstoy.
It's in the variations of languages and in specific times that I'd be looking for the solution to the missing "J" mistery. That's all I can remember off the top of my head... would have to do more in depth search for a better explanation.

Take a peak in russian alphabet, there's no J in russian alpjabet: http://www.friends-partners.org/oldfriends/language/russian-alphabet.html

Someone mentioned a Croatian version... where did you find it, I would love to read that one!!!

bazarov
04-09-2007, 04:35 PM
Someone mentioned a Croatian version... where did you find it, I would love to read that one!!!

I have mentioned it, I am Croat and I have them at my book shelves!
But Pierre was writing his name on French, so Soviet alphabet before 1917. shouldn't have any relations with magic number.

conniekat8
04-09-2007, 05:16 PM
Hi Bazarov! :)
I too am a Croat :) Living in the US..

I'm regretting I don't know much russian, as I would love to read it in it's original form. I'll have to find croatian translation of it, I'm catching a number of things in the book I'm reading right now where things really are getting lost in translation! (Time to call mom, I suppose, and have it sent) I'm hoping translating from one slavic language to another, fewer things are getting lost.

Anyway, as for Pierre and his numerology exercise, I think the point of the whole description was to illustrate just how arbitrary and roundabout some of Pierres searches were, where a slightly botched numerologic table would not have made a lot of difference. It may have changed the result, but not the arbitrarity of the result. I think Tolsty continues on with describing how Pierre continued to tweak results anyway, if I change this and that letter slightly...

I would seriously doubt that what Pierre would be using in Moscow was an unadulterated version of french numerology. Perhaps if he was in Paris, I would find it more believable that he's found a pure french version. I think it's a lot more likely that he's gotten hold of some sort of an imperfect hybrid.

What's extraordinary to Pierre is not his forethought and careful planing, but what he ends up doing with and making of apparently chaotic circumstances that he finds himself in.

Heh, right back to things losing pieces in translation...
Anyway, at least that's what seems most likely scenario to me.

bazarov
04-09-2007, 05:36 PM
Hi Bazarov! :)
I too am a Croat :) Living in the US..

I'm regretting I don't know much russian, as I would love to read it in it's original form. I'll have to find croatian translation of it, I'm catching a number of things in the book I'm reading right now where things really are getting lost in translation! (Time to call mom, I suppose, and have it sent) I'm hoping translating from one slavic language to another, fewer things are getting lost.

Anyway, as for Pierre and his numerology exercise, I think the point of the whole description was to illustrate just how arbitrary and roundabout some of Pierres searches were, where a slightly botched numerologic table would not have made a lot of difference. It may have changed the result, but not the arbitrarity of the result. I think Tolsty continues on with describing how Pierre continued to tweak results anyway, if I change this and that letter slightly...

I would seriously doubt that what Pierre would be using in Moscow was an unadulterated version of french numerology. Perhaps if he was in Paris, I would find it more believable that he's found a pure french version. I think it's a lot more likely that he's gotten hold of some sort of an imperfect hybrid.

What's extraordinary to Pierre is not his forethought and careful planing, but what he ends up doing with and making of apparently chaotic circumstances that he finds himself in.

Heh, right back to things losing pieces in translation...
Anyway, at least that's what seems most likely scenario to me.

Rođo, Pierre would surely see that letter is missing, he was using it!
P.S. Croatian version is 10\$ plus postage.

conniekat8
04-09-2007, 05:42 PM
Rođo, Pierre would surely see that letter is missing, he was using it! P.S. Croatian version is 10\$ plus postage.

HAHAHA, you got me, I missed that part.
Well, so much for the rest of my theory :lol:

bazarov
04-09-2007, 05:50 PM
Damn it! Stays unsolved! Stay on forum, rođo! :D

conniekat8
04-09-2007, 05:56 PM
Damn it! Stays unsolved! Stay on forum, rođo! :D
I know, it's unthinkable, but perhaps Tolstoy himself, or the novel publisher just made a booo boo....
After complicating the issue, occam's razor suddenly came to my mind.

I'll stick around, I've been possesed by this book :)

bazarov
04-09-2007, 05:59 PM
I know, it's unthinkable, but perhaps Tolstoy himself, or the novel publisher just made a booo boo....
After complicating the issue, occam's razor suddenly came to my mind.

I'll stick around, I've been possesed by this book :)

If they haven't messed with Brown, why would they with Tolstoy?