Truth

[PierreGringoire]

Is there Truth? What is Truth? Try to convince yourself what Truth (reality) is. And how does it inspire? What are its demands or incentives or callings? You don't have to be right, just try to grasp it as much as you think you can. Or at least make us laugh. Attempt it.

[Thorwench]

There are many different types of truth. Philosophers (like Kant) distinguish, for instance, between a priori truth (truth before all experience) like mathematical truths or conceptual truth such as: A circle is round; and a posteriori truth, truths known by experience. Many think that you cannot know the latter kind of truth, you can only believe it or it is your nature to believe it. Some, like Frege, thought that if you have a meaningful word for something the word itself expresses that you grasped the truth, i.e. the reality of the thing designated by that word. So, for Frege, "sun" would be a meaningful word, but "unicorn" wouldn't be. But then, how do you what's meaningful? Has "menaingful" taken the place of truth?
I generally believe that truth is if some perception/knowldege/information corresponds to a real event or a real thing. I also believe that truth has an intrinsic value, that it is valuable to know how and what and that things/events really are. However, truth can also be damaging and it can be morally questionable to tell the truth. Ibsen wrote a play "Wild Geese" about the moral dichotomy of truth. In conclusion I am convinced that it is worthwile to aspire towards truth but that the truth-seeker should always consider how much truth he/she and others can bear.

[holograph]

hehe. i like this question. ive asked myself this question for a very very long time.

essentially, you are referring to 2 different types of truth, one being what is not "false" and one bein the ultimate reality. in my opinion, the first truth that i referred to does not exist, because it is a matter of perception. one truth is another's lie and so on. if you are taught that a circle is a square then that is the truth, whereas we know it is not. truth is what man invented to distinguish right from wrong, whereas it does not exist whatsoever and there is no difference between a truth and a lie. as nietzshe said in "on truth and lies in a nonmoral sense,

What then is truth? A movable host of metaphors, metonymies, and; anthropomorphisms: in short, a sum of human relations which have been poetically and rhetorically intensified, transferred, and embellished, and which, after long usage, seem to a people to be fixed, canonical, and binding. Truths are illusions which we have forgotten are illusions- they are metaphors that have become worn out and have been drained of sensuous force, coins which have lost their embossing and are now considered as metal and no longer as coins.

The second "truth", the "Reality" ikn my personal view and to my personal perception also does not exist. our "truth" is all we know, and that "truth" is all we strive for, whereas it all may be far from the "truth" in the first place. there is no truth, what all there is is a circle in which we incessantly tranvel attempting to reach the unattaiable understanding we deem true. for some, it is a spiral staircase, but the height of it does not end in this reality.

In summary, there are no lies and there is no truth, nor is there reality. If you believe the statemnt "i think therefore i am" then you will disagree with me. for me, thinking does not prove much.

[muhsin]

Simply this thread remends me one of my favourit poem, it reads:

Truth,
truth is bitter.
Bites fainfully,
like a sting of bee.(just a stanza)

[bhekti]

I am asking myself about the being of "truth". I found that somehow I apriorily recognized "truth" as being in the nature of a statement or a set of statements. I don't know why and I asked myself why. I don't know.

I'm now speculating. I try to think about "truth" not statement-like, but person-like.

[PierreGringoire]

Holograph, all you are saying is that everything is hollow, and there is no definite being or definite Truth. Yet you did desribe it. You said it is "nothingness," pretty much. So you kind of went the other way on the quest to find Truth. You believe in UnTruth. You are cheating. Let's assume there is Truth and "fullness" in everything, what then would you say Truth is?

[PierreGringoire]

Thorwench, if Truth is...How can an excess of it be harmful? Wouldn't the excess of the "Real" Reality be freeing?

[PierreGringoire]

I believe there is ultimate Truth. I don't think we have the senses enough to percieve it though. I believe our senses in this world grasp the outline of Truth. And that the outline of Truth has a lot to do with is self-sufficency and self-responsiblity. Hence, I term the "worldly" Truth as a sort of foundation Of THE TRUTH. Philosophers are the most prepared for death, since they prepare for it their entire lives. That is their ultimate "bulls-eye," their focal point in life. I say the best shot we have in dying in the most favorable manner of the Truth, is to live selfless. Becuase self-responsiblity and self-sufficency will obviously always give way to selflessness. Do good, Do to others that you would yourself want done to you, the thing you'd want others to give to you, is happiness. You give people that, you give to people what you think is kindess, without wanting anything or kindness in return, is my perception of what "the heavens" are kind of structured by. You give because you, yourself are content because you are not afraid of Pain, who is the twin brother of Death. You are not afraid because you have your eyes set on the real-reality; which "the outline," the "all we can know in this life," I have already provided for you. It is contedness, or a realtion to that word, I can't describe. I have a stupid vocabulary. I need to read more. ;)

[PierreGringoire]

The "all we can know" is to be content, because every ambition is depreciative of the greatness within us. And to be content is to be self-sufficent and self-responsible, and I don't want to go into the cause and effects any more, I'd rather stop writing, and start mediating on death.

[holograph]

pierre, as of present i am searching for the same answers as you, and the same answers as all humankind. i do not know what the purpose of life is, and i do not know what truth is or whether it exists. but what i believe is that this, this material world, these words, these ideas are NOT truth. what we perceive to be the truth is nothing more than a man made idea. however, i also believe that there is an "ultimate" idea of truth, but that truth is so simple yet so complex that we will never perceive it. it is like the idea of infinity, we can slightly understand it yet cannot fully grasp its magnitude. also, to answer one of your posts, i do not believe in selflessness nor do i believe in selfishness, they are two extremes that should be avoided. i believe in being self-centered, not in the common use of it, but centered on the Self in the yoga sense. before we can help anyone on this planet we must change and help ourselves to be better human beings. if everyone on this planet did just that, we would have NO problems. --alina

[PierreGringoire]

Stoicism... It is to my humble opinion that such an approach to life will bring one happiness in its purest and fullest glut. The way to achieve such a desire will be to simply refrain first from the giddiness of pleasure, and the converse (giddiness of emotional pain) will follow in suit. And the overall destination of such a risk will be the ability to see beauty in its' truest forms. -Would you agree with this holograph?

[PierreGringoire]

If someone can have a mature stoic heart, would not its natural course be to move away from self gratification. Once one is away from self-gratifcation won't he be using the most rational part of his mind since his "crests and troughs" will be on a level plane because his sensitve emotions that have to do with giddiness will be shut out. Those emotions always induce a self centered outlook. Then, if that mature heart refrained from gratifying himself, you could probably say that he'd destest any activity purely for that accomplishment (the accomplishment of self gtatifiacation). So its oppoiste nature, being "to gratify others" would be the only thing left for that man's driving force in life? Am a I right or am I wrong? :brow:

[Baudelaire]

I'm not sure where you're going with your previous question Pierre, but to return to your original one...

I do not think truth exists. Truth is an idea – an ideal really. It is an abstract or hypothetical optimum. Any examination of our language and conception of reality suggests that we can only understand life in terms of opposites, making the foundation of our reality simply a network of relationships between these opposites (otherwise referred to in literary theory as différance, rhizomes, multiplicity, etc). In other words, ultimate truth cannot exist because our language ensures any ultimate meaning is never reached.

But I am intrigued by the idea that ultimate truth really does exist, only we are unable to perceive it. Perhaps if we were to discover a new mode of thinking or a new language to interpret the world, we would be able to discern truth from fiction.

Unfortunately these ideas rely on the notion that there is a "true" world out there that is somehow obscured from humanity because of our fundamentally flawed language and ideas. If I could discover a new mode of thought, would the "real" world really unravel itself before my eyes? Wouldn't my conception of a new mode of thought rely on the flawed mode of thinking that I currently possess? And therefore meaning I couldn't escape my own ideology, ever?

It also strikes me that evading the depressing mantra of philosophy and lit. theory (politics is pervasive, language is constitutive, truth is provisional, meaning is contingent, human nature is a myth) by simply saying "truth exists, only our senses cannot perceive it," is like believing in Santa because its a nice idea. Nobody wants to be confronted by a meaningless existence, right?

Well... I don't know, I'm just a literature student. :(

[Verbatim]

How can there be Truth? there is no truth

[eccehomo]

Why not rather unTruth?....Why do we always want to know about Truth?...Why not rather unTruth?...Is it because we tend to think that Truth is more "real" than unTruth?...Or is it that Truth had proven itself to be "useful"...Here is my suggestion: let us not confine ourselves to the concepts "truth" and "reality"...Is that possible, huh?..:D

[caesar]

In my opinion the 'objective - as we perceive it - is not absolutely independent of the subjective. To elaborate - I believe in the existence of the ultimate truth. But what we perceive as true or real is not the ultimate truth. I think truth or reality, as we know it, is the product of our perception of the ultimate reality and our imagination.

[AllisonForbes]

There is truth in what we observe through our senses. We may identify a tree by any name that we wish, but that does not make it less a tree. There is also truth in what we cannot observe, but has an effect on the physical realm which is observable. Gravity, atoms, dna. Finally, there is truth in the human condition, effects of one behavior upon another. Learned behaviors, and the seeking of fulfillment.

Truth is that which holds to the essence of itself.

We know truth because we experience it. How we interpret or label that truth is secondary to the truth itself. Truth does not depend on beliefs, ideologies, or theories. Those are man made constructs that seek to categorize truth.

[matthewlha]

To find truth you would need to find reality. There is the "ideal" objective reality, and the subjective reality. Because we are mortal and live in a relative universe, reality for us is subjective (see Einstein's example of the two lights coming on at the same time). It will continue to be subjective, and therefore truth as reality is unachievable in this human form.
So, if you believe in an "objective" reality -- in other words, a God or gods -- then you believe truth exists. If you don't, then you don't.
I do believe, and think that death is, in part, a transition to this ultimate, objective truth and reality. But my larger point is just that people's beliefs on this will probably coincide with their religious/spiritual beliefs, and that probably isn't going anywhere except into a share and tell session.

[blazeofglory]

Is there Truth? What is Truth? Try to convince yourself what Truth (reality) is. And how does it inspire? What are its demands or incentives or callings? You don't have to be right, just try to grasp it as much as you think you can. Or at least make us laugh. Attempt it.

There is truth in the universe and nothing remains or exists without truth. The problem is we can not see and if we can not see or realize the problem is with us.

It is said that God is everywhere, manifestly here and there. The problem is with us. There is light pervading the world and the problem is with the blind man.

[jgweed]

Wittgenstein would suggest that this discussion would be clarified if we considered what makes one statement true and another false, and looked at all sorts of statements we make that warrant a truth-value.
He would perhaps ask another question, namely can the same statement be both true and false at different times and from different perspectives?
Cheers,
jgw

[blazeofglory]

Wittgenstein would suggest that this discussion would be clarified if we considered what makes one statement true and another false, and looked at all sorts of statements we make that warrant a truth-value.
He would perhaps ask another question, namely can the same statement be both true and false at different times and from different perspectives?
Cheers,
jgw

It is in fact a relative terms and there is nothing called absolute truth. Ultimately but falsehood and truth merge into each other's existence.

Like there is nothing states called dark and night but the presence and non presence of the sun and where there is no sun we can not think about both
as a matter of fact.

[blazeofglory]

Why not rather unTruth?....Why do we always want to know about Truth?...Why not rather unTruth?...Is it because we tend to think that Truth is more "real" than unTruth?...Or is it that Truth had proven itself to be "useful"...Here is my suggestion: let us not confine ourselves to the concepts "truth" and "reality"...Is that possible, huh?..:D

It is indeed untruth that asserts the existence of truth, for truth lies in the notion that we know there is untruth. The statement that the sky is blue is truth and yet the truth is that it blue or red or the ideas of other colors is an optical illusion only and nothing else.