Language Immersion Programs

[Shannanigan]

Okay, I have something I NEED to rant about now, because I just had four students from Puerto Rico in my Writing Center getting help with basic English...in a basic English course....NOT a Spanish-to-English course, but an actual 100 level course that is part of the Gen Ed courses here at the University of the Virgin Islands (English dominant university).

When I asked these students (in Spanish) if they were taking a course to actually LEARN English while (desperately) trying to pass a Gen Ed composition course...they said no, and that they never had!

WTF?!?!?!

Apparently, as they explained to me, this is part of an IMMERSION program at their high school (they are seniors) in which some genuises decided that if they IMMERSE their Spanish-speaking students in an English-only university they will eventually "pick up" the language and be successful when they are later accepted to English universities in the United States.

Okay, I understand the idea here; I mean, Mexicans who have immigrated to California and Texas (legally or otherwise) have learned a sort of Spanglish due to immersion...but it really isn't functional for universtiy level! The kids I tutored were so intelligent and so well-grounded...and they have career goals and schools they want to go to...and they are FAILING this basic course and getting sent to the Writing Center because nobody has taught them English! They are trying to learn as they go...and it's not going to work...because a prerequisite for Gen Ed courses taught in English should be knowing English!

Okay, I've ranted...please, does anyone see any good in these immersion programs? These kids have NO Spanish speakers to help them...the only Spanish I know is the basic stuff I learned in my class last semester...and in my Spanish class, there is English in the book to EXPLAIN how to conjugate and whatnot in Spanish and why certain words are the way that they are. I just want to know if any teachers in here have witnessed any good from this sort of thing.

[SleepyWitch]

wow, this sounds like such a crap idea....
i mean, our tutor said immersion can do quite a bit to improve student's foreign language skills, provided they've had formal instruction before!!!! but i can't see how it's going to work if they don't know a single word of English in the first place.... it might work if they had loads of time and the context wasn't a univ course but just everyday life....

[Shannanigan]

see...that's what I said...

after I wrote that post, my boss (and the instructor of said English course) came in and I had to ask her what she thought about it, and she was all for it! She had all of these arguments like: "well, English is the closest thing to a universal language in this world right now, and these kids are high school seniors who want to go to colleges in the States, and they need to learn as quickly as possible..." It seemed like no matter how much I tried to tell her that while I agreed with all of this, that immersion was not the most productive way to do this, and they needed formal classes FIRST and then maybe immersion could work...well, she just didn't get it. She was so determined that this was the right way to do it. I don't know, I felt such a lack of sympathy from her. I kept imagining what it would be like if I went to Puert Rico with my mediocre Spanish skills and tried to take communications and composition courses in Spanish.

Ugh. That is so NOT a way to learn a language. Where do people come up with this stuff???

[SleepyWitch]

our teacher said the idea behind it is to parallel "natural" (first language, L1) acquisition in foreign language teaching... only it doesn't work because in L1 acquisition children are young and more receptive plus they spend 100% of their time in the L1 environment plus the parents have "intuitive didactics", i.e. they use motherese (grammatically correct but simplified language; exaggerated stressing of the words with lots of content: "Look, there's a BIRD over there?")... so children actually get a lot of help.. they are not exposed to fast, slurred, normally stressed adult-speech... plus parents start out teaching the children the names of concrete things and point to them.. abstract categories normally come in later....

so, those "natural" acquisition enthusiasts probably didn't take motherese and things into account.....

-SleepyWitch the smartass linguist :)

[genoveva]

She had all of these arguments like: "well, English is the closest thing to a universal language in this world right now, and these kids are high school seniors who want to go to colleges in the States, and they need to learn as quickly as possible..."

Ugh. That is so NOT a way to learn a language. Where do people come up with this stuff???

What an anglo-centric thing for her to say! :sick:

[SleepyWitch]

What an anglo-centric thing for her to say!

well, it's true though,,,, there's no question that they need to learn English.. it's just immersion with zero formal instruction won't do the trick....
(wanna guess how long I've been studying English?.. still not 'finished')

there's no way around English these days... e.g. 80% of publications on the internet are in English, because ppl from other countries are slow to catch up on new developments... e.g. if you want to find info about the German writer Günter Grass, you'll get about 1 page in Germany (and that one hasn't been updated since 1997) and loooooaaaaads in English (posted by American profs of German Lit for example).. the same goes for all fields of study (e.g. biologists etc have to publish in English if they want to reach the international community of scientiests, otherwise noone will take the trouble to read their work) and even things like sports, hobbies, any kind of random info...

[Scheherazade]

Okay, I have something I NEED to rant about now, because I just had four students from Puerto Rico in my Writing Center getting help with basic English...in a basic English course....NOT a Spanish-to-English course, but an actual 100 level course that is part of the Gen Ed courses here at the University of the Virgin Islands (English dominant university).This is a rather interesting approach. I am not sure what the curriculum for this 'basic English' course covers but if it is not aimed for ESOL students, it will do very little good for those students.

The 'immersion approach', like SW mentioned above, can be quite useful when it is supported by ESOL classes. They need to have a basic knowledge of English to be able to improve their knowledge through practice and it needs to be reinforced through continued classes as well. If immersion worked on its own, we would not come across immigrants who are unable to speak the native language of a country where they have been living for years.

Also, immersion is helpful with more practical implications of language use but these students need more than every day English if they are to pursue their studies at university level in the USA. I know people who can speak fluent English because they have been living in the UK. However, their knowledge of grammar or written English is very little.

Thanks for bringing up this interesting subject and please keep us informed on your student's development, Shannanigan. :)

[Shannanigan]

Thank you all for all of your input, especially you, Sleepy Witch :) (You seem to know a lot about language development...) I am glad to know that I am not the only one who thinks that this is insane...

Well, what I think is going to happen is at the end of this summer, the students in that class (it's a basic composition, essay-writing course) who have had formal English language classes will get their credits, go back to their high schools, and graduate with some college credit under their belt to help them along. I have a feeling that my boss (their teacher) is not going to pass the four students she sent to me (this is the idea that she sort-of, kind-of, beat-around-the-bush projected). These are the four students which have never had any English language course, or who have failed such a course. Those four students, I think, simply won't get the college credit; and if they still choose to go to an English-dominant university, then they will have to take an English language course either on their own or at school and learn FAST.

My boss tried to send the four students back to me again today...but I just decided not to go to work, not to avoid the students, because they were very polite and easy to get along with, but more because I am not trained in ESL, and my job is to help students write essays, not learn English (which is what she has been sending them in for...to practice present tense English phrases.) Also, I am tired of sitting in the Writing Center reading Stephen King and getting paid 8 bucks an hour to do it...I care about my small university and I feel like I'm wasting their money. I've already told my boss that I plan on leaving early this summer...so she isn't too pleased with me, but oh well.

I really feel for these students, but I think if anything...perhaps this will teach their high school dean in Puerto Rico (who sent them on this mad escapade) that he can only send students who have already had formal training in the English language if he wants to accomplish something...

[SleepyWitch]

yeah, poor sods... i hope this dean is gonna learn and not send any more students who don't know any English...

keep us posted on developments though... there is a chance that they might pick up a handful of expressions at least.. would be interesting to see how much they can pick up

(hehe, thanks for your compliment... 4 years of studying Lingustics have finally proven useful :) if only in a theoretical way... )

[Shannanigan]

Since they're from Puerto Rico...they don't seem to realize that they do already know a good deal of English, because many people and businesses in Puerto Rico speak English.

One kid asked me how to say "Closed" in English...he pronounced it with an accent on the -ed, like you would in Spanish (cloSED). I told him "Closed" is an English word that he probably just thinks is Spanish because he's seen it in Puerto Rico and used it without confusing anyone. So, I think they are understanding a lot, but really just having a hard time writing essays becuase they don't know how to go from Spanish to English...

(a funny side note...as I worked with one kid, I asked him to write what he wants to to while on St. Thomas. He wrote "I want to see the beaches." except, he didn't know how to spell beaches, and since in Spanish the letter "i" is pronounced "ee"...well, you can guess what he wound up writing. After I got my smile down enough to speak, I explained how that word would be pronounced in English and that it shouldn't be used in general...corrected the spelling...and I think that, at least, one of them has learned to curse in English, lol.)

[SleepyWitch]

hehe, i did an internship at a school 2 years ago and the teacher told us he taught an English course in Spain once... the Spanish students tried to say "Let's take the sheets to the beach".... aaaargh :)