Females in the Military

[apstudent]

Ok, this is an issue in today's society, so what do you guys think? Should woman be in the military? If yes, should they be allowed in all the branches(aka infantry, armor, artillery, special forces, etc.)? And, should they be held to the same standards as men(living conditions, physical requirements)?

[Koa]

(dangerous topic...)

[AbdoRinbo]

Let's write to R. Lee Ermey and ask him.

[Admin]

I have no problems with it, so long as they can meet the exact same physical requirements as men.

Don't let this thread turn political, keep the discussion on society and gender.

[apstudent]

Of course it wil stay non-political. I just thought it was interesting that females do in fact have lower physical standards to meet than men. The Army Physical Fitness Test is pushups, situps, and a two mile run. Each has different mininum scores for male and female. I don't know what to think about that. What does everyone else think?

[Admin]

If they aren't going to serve in combat I don't mind.

If they want to serve in combat they need to have the same requirements.

[Chioma]

I most definently think that women should be allowed to serve in combat with men. As long as they meet the same requirements and there is "equal" treatment, I don't think there is anything at all wrong with it. Their living conditions should also be the same. If they're both (men and women) going to be doing the same amount of battle, then their standards should be the same. Just wondering, if the living conditions were to be different, whose living areas would be better?

[apstudent]

Well, here's the deal as of right now. There are only a certain number of branches open to females that are combat arms. The ones that females are not allowed in currently are infantry and armor. Pretty much everything else is open to females with some minor exclusions. I personally believe that females should be given every oppurtunity to fight as men. In fact, since it is such a touchy issue at my college, they have debates quite often, which are optional attendance. It is interesting to note that a large amount of the people that are opposed to females on the front lines are females themselves. THey argue that if they had a father or a brother on the front lines, they would be more comfortable knowing that a male was next to them. I personally am on the other side. During my Basic training this summer, we did our mock battles with mixed gender squads and I saw basically no difference in the fighting capabilities of the genders.They carried the same weight, shot at the same targets, did the same PT every morning. The only difference that I did notice that got me thinking a little bit was the buddy carries. We had two hundred pound males in our squad. Should one of these guys go down in a real battle situtaion, there were no females there that could carry or even drag them out of harm's way. So................

[Admin]

The only difference that I did notice that got me thinking a little bit was the buddy carries. We had two hundred pound males in our squad. Should one of these guys go down in a real battle situtaion, there were no females there that could carry or even drag them out of harm's way. So................


That is exactly the motivation behind my opinions.

I was in ROTC for a year and we practiced carrying wounded people and I can't see how the average woman is going to be able to do it.

[fayefaye]

women should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want. if that involves going off to the military, then of course they have the right.

[fayefaye]

PLEASE SAY A PRAYER FOR WORLD PEACE.

[apstudent]

I would argue agianst your argument Fayefaye, but then it would get into a political debate, and then this thread would be closed. So, I will let it remain at this, you have your beliefs and I have my beliefs.

As for the letting women do whatever the hell they want to, here is a question for you. Would you feel more comfortable fighting next to someone that had the physical strength to drag you away from harm should you become wounded, or fighting next to someone that can fight as well as anyone else, but maybe would not have the strength to move you should you become injured? Granted this is a pointed question, but consider it. And fayefaye, I am giving you a little intellectual credit, so consider this intellectually, open minded even.

[fayefaye]

fine. i would rather have a big, strong guy be able to pull me to safety. happy now? that doesn't mean women shouldn't be allowed to be in the military, or that they have less of a right to be there than men. i would argue that women can be strong, but i won't bother because-let's face it-on average we are physically weaker. but that doesn't mean that much when ur holding a semiautomatic now does it? what's wrong with political debates? i like em. can't just sweep controversy under the rug.

[fayefaye]

WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO MY POST?? WHERE HAVE ALL MY POLITICAL STATEMENTS DISAPPEARED TO? *ANGRY FACE* CENSORSHIP?!

[apstudent]

I agree with you on the fact that women should have no less of a right to be in the military then men. But, I do not think that women should be on the front lines in infantry and what not. If anyone, regardless of gender is not strong enough to carry me, I do not want to go into battle with them. It just happens that men are typically stong enough to accomplish this.

[fayefaye]

OK. i've been sitting around for the last five mins waiting for u to reply because i know ur here at the same time as me-i can see ur name at the bottom of the screen. they should be allowed on the front lines if they wish to be. if that's what they want, why stop them? just out of curiosity, are u male/female? are u saying u WANT to go into battle? or that u simply wouldn't go into battle with someone weaker than u. what about if U urself are weak? what then? how would u feel if they said 'oh, i'm sorry. u can't lift that big guy off the field. ur no good to us.' what about all the weak men? CHANGE UR SIG.

[apstudent]

First off, I am male. There is a certain unity between soldiers as they go through the army. It is a general understanding. It says, I won't leave you out there if you wont leave me. It is what creates the bonds that last lifetimes between those that served together. If at any point in my career in the military do I get to the point in which I do not believe I could perform well enough to protect those around me, then I will personally quit. If those around me do not feel that I can handle it, then I would love for them to tell me, rather then them not trusting me. And just because you are not infantry, does not mean you are no good. It just means there are other useful things to do. Did you know for every one infantry soldier, there are eight people in the support branches. It takes more than warriors to run an Army.

And the sig stays.

[fayefaye]

I KNEW IT. geez. i find u so irritating i'm not even going to reply properly. an army guy. well, gi joe, i hope ur never in a war, for ur sake.

[apstudent]

How is me being a "GI Joe" change the discussion any. Is it because I might be biased? Well, I am just as biased as the person that is not in the military, I am probably just on the other side. Honestly though, I do not want to go into battle. I really don't. Am I scared, probably a little bit. But, if I did go into battle, all I care about is that the person next to me can help me if I am in trouble, and that I can help him. If that female is strong enough to carry me, then so be it, I would be honored fighting next to her. But then you would have to let some females in over others, and that would become a big issue, where to draw the line. I dont know what irritates you though, my sig or my responses?

[Admin]

I have no problems with women in support roles, as pilots, serving on ships.

If they want to serve on the front lines though I think they need to display the same physical prowess as their male counterparts.

The issue here I think is a double standard. One standard for women and one for men. If there was a single standard I don't think it would be as much of an issue.

[fayefaye]

just the idea of war.. i don't like it. battle. *sigh* what about peace? i guess i agree with admin.

[fayefaye]

i know what it is. it sounds like ur glorifying war sometimes. all 'it brings peace' which is just totally against my beliefs.

[Jay]

Apstudent:
You can in no way be certain that a two hundred and fifty pound guy WOULD get you out of the harm's way better than a hundred and twenty pound woman. Gender doesn't mean that when you're a guy you can't be scared ****less and the other way round, being a woman doesn't mean women are (when I exagerrate it, trying to make a point) cowards. The guy next to you, what if he goes down with you??? Then it's futile to wonder if the one next to you's a woman who couldn't drag you a meter. Wouldn't make a diference then. It's all nice, "we don't leave anyone behind", but how can you say you won't? I really don't mean to say you would, just that you have no way of knowing it. Or the other way around, your best buddy can as well leave you behind.

But I agree, when the woman can handle whatever men can, why not let her serve in infantry? Yes, women aren't that strong in strenght as men.

Faye, why going all furious with Apstudent? He really haven't said anything infuriating... yet ;).

Ap, for all it's worth, I don't think you're a GI Joe. And no, I'm not saying it to be "politically correct" ;), I mean it.

PS: just noticed we have foul language filter... good, will try not to use "bad" words :) in the future.

[Shea]

Originally posted by fayefaye
i know what it is. it sounds like ur glorifying war sometimes. all 'it brings peace' which is just totally against my beliefs.

Trying not to get political, but sometimes you must have war in order to have peace. But it should be the last resort. Think about what America would have been like if we didn't have the Revolutionary War? There are a lot of other examples I could list, but I think I made my point without running the risk of being political.

[fayefaye]

i really don't want to have a discussion about war.. as for females in the military, they can't be precluded, but they should have to pass the same trials as any guy to get in.

[Azoic]

I think that women shouldn't have to meet the same standards as men, 'cuz when you are running, you just have to not be the slowest one.

Seriously though, there should be one standard for men and women, possilbly have a front line standard and a support standard. In my engineering days, some of the best, most intellignet people were so out of shape that to join the military, it would take years (long enough that they wouldn't qualify due to age). So if the overweight genious wants to run the fission reactor to make the ship go, why not let said genious?

[Isagel]

The military is not really my field. But still I can´t shut up.

When you do research you have to be aware that general differences in groups does not mean that evrybody in the group will show these differences. For example women are generaly weaker than men. That does not mean that there are not strong women and weak men. The strong women would probably be better soldiers than the weak men. All this I guess you are already aware of. As you said "If anyone, regardless of gender is not strong enough to carry me, I do not want to go into battle with them. It just happens that men are typically strong enough to accomplish this."

So if you want the most capable a good way would be to have the same tests and have both genders do them. But it takes more to be a good soldiers than muscles. And it takes different skills in different part off the battlefield. In Sweden evrybody drafted takes test that measure intelligence, strenght and different abilities (like hearing or vision) and get a position that corresponds with their score. I do not know how you do, perhaps it is the same?

The sum of all this is that I would want the right abilities in the right place - no matter gender.

[Stanislaw]

Women should be permitted to surve in the military...
...they have every right to get blown up in the name of their country.

(low personal regard for military)

I am proud to come from a country where even kaola's could defeat our army... The beutifle country of Canada.:p