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Mililalil XXIV
05-12-2006, 05:25 PM
Many have wondered why one thing about JESUS is first stressed her, then another there, in defining WHO and WHAT HE is. Why, for example, is HE now called "GOD", then "SAVIOR", then "JUDGE", then "SON OF GOD", then "SON OF MAN", then "CHRIST", then some other NAME?

In emphasizing that a MAN in their midst be none other than GOD, HIS Disciples emphasized HIS Incarnation, defining both HIS IDENTITY primarily as GOD, and HIS DEITY in the prime Nature of that PERSON, on one hand, and HIS Humanity assumed, on the other. In so doing, the approach to stating the fact of the matter was as follows:

All Jews were expecting YAHWEH's Promises to all be fulfilled. This went for the opponents of CHRIST among the Jews as well as for the first Christians, all of which were Jews, some even being from the High Priest's family, and from the Pharisaical rabbinical council. The general preeminent expectation was for someone greater than all else of Israel to make an appearance soon. Most longed for was the MESSIAH. In agreement with all Scripture, the nation of Israel foresaw HIM to be a MAN of their nation WHO surpasses all other men. (Thus, for this reason alone, no Jew or Christian could ever think that Muhammad is the greatest man, nor even on par with the MESSIAH. While still in debate with Christians over the identity of the MESSIAH, non-Christian Jews agree with Christians that no other man than the MESSIAH can be on par with HIM.)

There is proof in the Dead Sea Scrolls that much of what Christians now believe was also considered Orthodox by Jewish sects that had no direct social standing with JESUS as many one day would, being in the right place at the right time. Many things I shall get into can be seen in those written remains of Qumran, showing that Christians shared a common religious background with many other Jews who had a lot in common after generations of intersectarian strife.

To open things up, let me focus on the concepts of "CHRIST", "SON OF GOD", and "GOD", with direct bearing on Christological Teaching.

In the Book of the Prophet Isaiah (which the oldest manuscripts show as existing in the same form as today, and not as an initial Isaiah Book with additional books appended on by some pseudepigraphical forger), we see statements that bespeak GOD as a SON. In Is. 7:11, GOD says to King Ahaz of Judah, "Ask thee a sign of YHWH thy `ELOHIM: ask it either in the depth, or in the height above." Keep this in mind while reading on as to the Sign GOD picks for him. Ahaz seems to despise the lofty Words as unworthy of using great Faith to respond to. Thus, what is ultimately promised is left to a future generation Ahaz wouldn't get to live in, while GOD knew how great a thing HE would accomplish, even if Ahaz weren't worthy to be around then to behold it.

In verse 13, Isaiah, as GOD's Oracle, turns over his address to all the House of David, and he addresses now no longer merely Ahaz. In verse 14, we read, "Therefore `ADHONAY HIMSELF shall give you a Sign: behold, the Virgin shall conceive, and bear a SON, and shall call HIS NAME 'IMMANUEL'." When he says "to you", he uses the second person plural, addressing the House of David he has just called upon as witnesses after hearing Ahaz' decline to name a Sign when enjoined by GOD so graciously to do so. Here we see that a SON of one called "the Virgin" (as understood by Hebrew-speaking, rabbinical translators centuries before CHRIST, in establishing the Greek Septuagint Translation), is called "WITH-US-IS-GOD", and that this great Sign mentioned is GOD's own suggestion for HIS original, lofty invitation to choose a Sign that is either in the depth or in the height below. The details make THIS SON to be of the House of David. Already, unless such a ONE is to be taken as able to be surpassed, HE must be the promised MESSIAH. Thus, some Disciple's first dialogues with their rabbinical opponents started not from calling JESUS "GOD", but from provong that HE fulfilled the Prophecies about the MESSIAH, and that HIS Miracles were well-known, and, being irrefutable as a fact, lent a second Witness to WHO HE is. Unless ONE greater than HE to be born of the Virgin of David's House, and WHOSE NAME is "IMMANUEL", and WHOSE Birth alone is comparable to the depth and to the height as a milestone Sign, was to come, then this had to be none other than the greatest MAN to be expected: the MESSIAH. Since no opponent could just say that HE was not GOD INCARNATE and be satisfied he had won his argument, the opposition sought to disprove HE was the MESSIAH (for, if they could prove that to be a lie, then their opponants had no further cause to show that, since the MESSIAH is also GOD, JESUS, as the proven MESSIAH is GOD).

If we read just a little further in Isaiah, we read (9:5), "For a CHILD is born unto us, a SON is given unto us; and the Government is upon HIS Shoulder; and HIS NAME is called PELE` [WONDERFUL] YO'ETS [COUNSELLOR] `EL-GIBBOR [GOD OF MIGHT] `AVI-'ADH [FATHER OF ETERNITY] SAR-SHALOM [RULER OF PEACE]." Seeing this, for good reason, as a further reference to IMMANUEL, we see that the SON given is also called a number of other things that all sound very divine. Thus, just from these prophetic Words alone, there was and is a consensus that there would be a DIVINE SON. Since such a one could never be equaled, nor surpassed by any mere MAN, and since the MESSIAH was shown to be the greatest MAN to ever expect, it was obvious that the MESSIAH would also be the SON OF GOD. And, since this was clearly a SON with GOD's own qualities, this was none other than GOD manifest in Human Form.

Paul clearly agreed with all the Church that JESUS is GOD, and that HE is ONE of THREE that are GOD. With that in mind, some have been baffled at his approach with his former peers among the Pharisees. But the obscurity is in a lack of understanding as to what all the Pharisees already believed, and what in particular they held against Christians. There is some evidence that Trinitarian passages and verses in the Hebrew Scriptures were understood in a Trinitarian manner before the time JESUS was born. Paul never found argument with rabbis over this. What they picked out to argue with was that Paul considered JESUS in particular, among men, to be that special PERSON of the GODHEAD, made MAN.

When Peter realized JESUS was the MESSIAH, he also put Faith in the understanding of the Prophecies to indicate that the SAME was the SON OF GOD, and confessed further that JESUS' being the MESSIAH also meant HE could rightly be called the SON OF GOD. The Pharisees, in hearing of HIS being the SON OF GOD, understood that if HE considered HIMSELF thus, HE considered it not robbery, then, to be EQUAL to GOD.

In all matters about GOD, many with a refined manner of argumentation spend most of their focus on what seem to be side issues, to fortify the supporting pillars that will, once demonstrated, make the things harder to prove at once, easy to come to as the one conclusion of a straight line of reason.

subterranean
05-12-2006, 10:35 PM
Why, for example, is HE now called "GOD", then "SAVIOR", then "JUDGE", then "SON OF GOD", then "SON OF MAN", then "CHRIST", then some other NAME?

Now?
(emphasize added)

To be honest, the lenght of the post hesitates me to dig further.

Mililalil XXIV
05-12-2006, 11:43 PM
Now?
(emphasize added)

To be honest, the lenght of the post hesitates me to dig further.
By now I do not refer to a particular phase in the history of discussing JESUS, but to the shift in emphasis - at all times in history - from one discussion to another. My point after was that these shifts do not negate one NAME or another, but allow the subject of JESUS to be comprehended from another vantage point of a single Understanding with manifold layers and aspects to it. I was showing that beginning from the term "CHRIST", rather than from "GOD", does not mean the Apologist prefers "CHRIST" to "GOD", but reflects on his approach to the order of proofs demanded by his opposing audience.

I will happily break up my exposition and discussions into smaller units. I will go back over things already said in beginning this thread, as well as introduce as of yet unmentioned things.

Mililalil XXIV
05-13-2006, 02:03 AM
In the Book of the Prophet Isaiah (which the oldest manuscripts show as existing in the same form as today, and not as an initial Isaiah Book with additional books appended on by some pseudepigraphical forger), we see statements that bespeak GOD as a SON. In Is. 7:11, GOD says to King Ahaz of Judah, "Ask thee a sign of YHWH thy `ELOHIM: ask it either in the depth, or in the height above." Keep this in mind while reading on as to the Sign GOD picks for him. Ahaz seems to despise the lofty Words as unworthy of using great Faith to respond to. Thus, what is ultimately promised is left to a future generation Ahaz wouldn't get to live in, while GOD knew how great a thing HE would accomplish, even if Ahaz weren't worthy to be around then to behold it.

In verse 13, Isaiah, as GOD's Oracle, turns over his address to all the House of David, and he addresses now no longer merely Ahaz. In verse 14, we read, "Therefore `ADHONAY HIMSELF shall give you a Sign: behold, the Virgin shall conceive, and bear a SON, and shall call HIS NAME 'IMMANUEL'." When he says "to you", he uses the second person plural, addressing the House of David he has just called upon as witnesses after hearing Ahaz' decline to name a Sign when enjoined by GOD so graciously to do so. Here we see that a SON of one called "the Virgin" (as understood by Hebrew-speaking, rabbinical translators centuries before CHRIST, in establishing the Greek Septuagint Translation), is called "WITH-US-IS-GOD", and that this great Sign mentioned is GOD's own suggestion for HIS original, lofty invitation to choose a Sign that is either in the depth or in the height below. The details make THIS SON to be of the House of David.

If we read just a little further in Isaiah, we read (9:5), "For a CHILD is born unto us, a SON is given unto us; and the Government is upon HIS Shoulder; and HIS NAME is called PELE` [WONDERFUL] YO'ETS [COUNSELLOR] `EL-GIBBOR [GOD OF MIGHT] `AVI-'ADH [FATHER OF ETERNITY] SAR-SHALOM [RULER OF PEACE]."
Let me further point out that the NAME "PELE`" means something set in a category of its own. There is mere nature, then there is what is other, and that is rightly called "Pele`". If this is a NAME on its own here, then it calls the SON given nothing less than "MIRACLE". That goes well with HIS being Virginally concieved and brought forth, and alone of men being able to bear such NAMES as "GOD-WITH-US", "YO'ETS", "GOD OF MIGHT", "FATHER OF ETERNITY", and "SAR-SHALOM". If, as some translators interpret it, "PELE`" is part of a compound (which seems grammatically far-fetched to me), then it functions as a noun to which "YO'ETS" adds a quality (according to the usual principle of word order in substantive compounds), making the compound NAME to mean a MIRACLE OF COUNSEL - which is possible, in regards to JESUS being the WORD OF GOD made Flesh -, or (as is rather strange syntactically), it somehow precedes the noun that it acts adjectivally upon, making it to mean a UNIQUE YO'ETS.

The term YO'ETS comes from a verb denoting advise or oracular expression at hand to help guide. Like Greek "PARACLETOS", in John 14:26, it can be translated as "COUNSELLOR", to denote such a person as profers such expressed guidance. "PARACLETOS" is a word implying one who is at hand to speak for us, an everpresent vocal guide. In the ancient Latin, "ADVOCATUS", having this meaning, was used as a translation from Greek to Latin. JESUS says that the HOLY SPIRIT would be a PARACLETOS like HE had been. HE was certainly a UNIQUE PARACLETE, as a DIVINE MAN. But, even if "PELE`" must be taken as a separate NAME from "YO'ETS", then we see HIM called both a MIRACLE and the PARACLETE. Since no other man could ever compare to GOD INCARNATE, another PARACLETE on par with HIM, but called the HOLY SPIRIT could not be a man, but is like HIM in DEITY. JESUS says HE would be like HIM in being the LIFE of us, but said the difference lay in HIS not coming clothed in any Body but the Church Herself, making, as the SPIRIT enlivening us to the Life of CHRIST'd Incarnation, the Body of CHRIST.

That term "SAR-SHALOM" is a compound beginning with "SAR", which is often, in this verse of Isaiah, translated into English as "PRINCE". This English word is based upon an older Latin term from which derives also "principle" and "principality", and denotes soveriegnty at base level, and not a second to the king idea, as when we today hear of Prince Charles, who is not king. The word is related to Latin "principio", meaning "first" or "chief" or "beginning". Thus, think not of "PRINCE OF PEACE" as being second to "KING OF PEACE", but remember that "EMPEROR OF PEACE" is not an out of the question translation. The cognates for "SAR" in other tongues than Hebrew have the supreme sense, as in Russian "Tsar", etc.

Along these lines, then, when it says that the Government will rest solely on HIS Shoulder, it reminds us that the line HE is to come from (David's) only came to rule after Israel complained they had no human King like the gentiles had, belittling GOD as their only KING until then. It makes perfect sense to expect the REAL KING to eventually take back HIS Throne over Israel. Having given it to David's SEED for ever, how else would HE reclaim HIS rightful place amidst HIS People than as becoming the SON of David, proving in the form of those that thought they knew better than HIM, HIS worth as KING, as a DIVINE PERSON made comprehensible in display of Virtue under their own pressures as a Nation?

As to HIS being a MIRACLE OF COUNSEL, we read in the verse that follows the description of HIS NAMES and Government:
"A WORD has sent `ADHONAY into Jacob, and IT hath descended upon Israel." Here is a term used in Hebrew (DAVAR), which is parallel to that in John 1:1 (LOGOS), meaning "WORD/LOGIC". As earlier we are told in Isaiah that a Sign should be selected that is in the depth or in the height, this WORD is said to descend, meaning it has come down from a height. Paul says JESUS descended from on high, going to the depth of Sheol in death, then ascended above every height, to the FATHER, recieving back the Glory HE laid aside as from HIMSELF, which HE had always shared with the FATHER by Nature, in all Eternity.

Sorry, Sub, I think the posts are gradually getting bite size. Or byte size.

muhsin
05-13-2006, 07:17 AM
Many have wondered why one thing about JESUS is first stressed her, then another there, in defining WHO and WHAT HE is. Why, for example, is HE now called "GOD", then "SAVIOR", then "JUDGE", then "SON OF GOD", then "SON OF MAN", then "CHRIST", then some other NAME?

In emphasizing that a MAN in their midst be none other than GOD, HIS Disciples emphasized HIS Incarnation, defining both HIS IDENTITY primarily as GOD, and HIS DEITY in the prime Nature of that PERSON, on one hand, and HIS Humanity assumed, on the other. In so doing, the approach to stating the fact of the matter was as follows:

All Jews were expecting YAHWEH's Promises to all be fulfilled. This went for the opponents of CHRIST among the Jews as well as for the first Christians, all of which were Jews, some even being from the High Priest's family, and from the Pharisaical rabbinical council. The general preeminent expectation was for someone greater than all else of Israel to make an appearance soon. Most longed for was the MESSIAH. In agreement with all Scripture, the nation of Israel foresaw HIM to be a MAN of their nation WHO surpasses all other men. (Thus, for this reason alone, no Jew or Christian could ever think that Muhammad is the greatest man, nor even on par with the MESSIAH. While still in debate with Christians over the identity of the MESSIAH, non-Christian Jews agree with Christians that no other man than the MESSIAH can be on par with HIM.)

There is proof in the Dead Sea Scrolls that much of what Christians now believe was also considered Orthodox by Jewish sects that had no direct social standing with JESUS as many one day would, being in the right place at the right time. Many things I shall get into can be seen in those written remains of Qumran, showing that Christians shared a common religious background with many other Jews who had a lot in common after generations of intersectarian strife.

To open things up, let me focus on the concepts of "CHRIST", "SON OF GOD", and "GOD", with direct bearing on Christological Teaching.

In the Book of the Prophet Isaiah (which the oldest manuscripts show as existing in the same form as today, and not as an initial Isaiah Book with additional books appended on by some pseudepigraphical forger), we see statements that bespeak GOD as a SON. In Is. 7:11, GOD says to King Ahaz of Judah, "Ask thee a sign of YHWH thy `ELOHIM: ask it either in the depth, or in the height above." Keep this in mind while reading on as to the Sign GOD picks for him. Ahaz seems to despise the lofty Words as unworthy of using great Faith to respond to. Thus, what is ultimately promised is left to a future generation Ahaz wouldn't get to live in, while GOD knew how great a thing HE would accomplish, even if Ahaz weren't worthy to be around then to behold it.

In verse 13, Isaiah, as GOD's Oracle, turns over his address to all the House of David, and he addresses now no longer merely Ahaz. In verse 14, we read, "Therefore `ADHONAY HIMSELF shall give you a Sign: behold, the Virgin shall conceive, and bear a SON, and shall call HIS NAME 'IMMANUEL'." When he says "to you", he uses the second person plural, addressing the House of David he has just called upon as witnesses after hearing Ahaz' decline to name a Sign when enjoined by GOD so graciously to do so. Here we see that a SON of one called "the Virgin" (as understood by Hebrew-speaking, rabbinical translators centuries before CHRIST, in establishing the Greek Septuagint Translation), is called "WITH-US-IS-GOD", and that this great Sign mentioned is GOD's own suggestion for HIS original, lofty invitation to choose a Sign that is either in the depth or in the height below. The details make THIS SON to be of the House of David. Already, unless such a ONE is to be taken as able to be surpassed, HE must be the promised MESSIAH. Thus, some Disciple's first dialogues with their rabbinical opponents started not from calling JESUS "GOD", but from provong that HE fulfilled the Prophecies about the MESSIAH, and that HIS Miracles were well-known, and, being irrefutable as a fact, lent a second Witness to WHO HE is. Unless ONE greater than HE to be born of the Virgin of David's House, and WHOSE NAME is "IMMANUEL", and WHOSE Birth alone is comparable to the depth and to the height as a milestone Sign, was to come, then this had to be none other than the greatest MAN to be expected: the MESSIAH. Since no opponent could just say that HE was not GOD INCARNATE and be satisfied he had won his argument, the opposition sought to disprove HE was the MESSIAH (for, if they could prove that to be a lie, then their opponants had no further cause to show that, since the MESSIAH is also GOD, JESUS, as the proven MESSIAH is GOD).

If we read just a little further in Isaiah, we read (9:5), "For a CHILD is born unto us, a SON is given unto us; and the Government is upon HIS Shoulder; and HIS NAME is called PELE` [WONDERFUL] YO'ETS [COUNSELLOR] `EL-GIBBOR [GOD OF MIGHT] `AVI-'ADH [FATHER OF ETERNITY] SAR-SHALOM [RULER OF PEACE]." Seeing this, for good reason, as a further reference to IMMANUEL, we see that the SON given is also called a number of other things that all sound very divine. Thus, just from these prophetic Words alone, there was and is a consensus that there would be a DIVINE SON. Since such a one could never be equaled, nor surpassed by any mere MAN, and since the MESSIAH was shown to be the greatest MAN to ever expect, it was obvious that the MESSIAH would also be the SON OF GOD. And, since this was clearly a SON with GOD's own qualities, this was none other than GOD manifest in Human Form.

Paul clearly agreed with all the Church that JESUS is GOD, and that HE is ONE of THREE that are GOD. With that in mind, some have been baffled at his approach with his former peers among the Pharisees. But the obscurity is in a lack of understanding as to what all the Pharisees already believed, and what in particular they held against Christians. There is some evidence that Trinitarian passages and verses in the Hebrew Scriptures were understood in a Trinitarian manner before the time JESUS was born. Paul never found argument with rabbis over this. What they picked out to argue with was that Paul considered JESUS in particular, among men, to be that special PERSON of the GODHEAD, made MAN.

When Peter realized JESUS was the MESSIAH, he also put Faith in the understanding of the Prophecies to indicate that the SAME was the SON OF GOD, and confessed further that JESUS' being the MESSIAH also meant HE could rightly be called the SON OF GOD. The Pharisees, in hearing of HIS being the SON OF GOD, understood that if HE considered HIMSELF thus, HE considered it not robbery, then, to be EQUAL to GOD.

In all matters about GOD, many with a refined manner of argumentation spend most of their focus on what seem to be side issues, to fortify the supporting pillars that will, once demonstrated, make the things harder to prove at once, easy to come to as the one conclusion of a straight line of reason.

I'm afraid to say it, but, to be frank and sincere, the post is quite to long to be grasped easily.

Shield&Sword
05-13-2006, 04:30 PM
Son of God? mean son of him self?

ShoutGrace
05-13-2006, 04:47 PM
Son of God? mean son of him self?
:lol:

Thats kind of funny. Thanks for the understanding.


By now I do not refer to a particular phase in the history of discussing JESUS, but to the shift in emphasis - at all times in history - from one discussion to another. My point after was that these shifts do not negate one NAME or another, but allow the subject of JESUS to be comprehended from another vantage point of a single Understanding with manifold layers and aspects to it. I was showing that beginning from the term "CHRIST", rather than from "GOD", does not mean the Apologist prefers "CHRIST" to "GOD", but reflects on his approach to the order of proofs demanded by his opposing audience.

Thats an interesting topic. Are you speaking of the actual verbage (maybe you are, you go into great detail -thanks BTW), or of what the names mean to every idividual - culture - time period et all? Sorry if that doesn't make sense or is written in you post :D .


But the obscurity is in a lack of understanding as to what all the Pharisees already believed, and what in particular they held against Christians. There is some evidence that Trinitarian passages and verses in the Hebrew Scriptures were understood in a Trinitarian manner before the time JESUS was born. Paul never found argument with rabbis over this. What they picked out to argue with was that Paul considered JESUS in particular, among men, to be that special PERSON of the GODHEAD, made MAN.

Oi. I've never heard of that before. It too is good mind food, depending on it's basis. Mililalil, can you throw me a PM with a link?

Shield&Sword
05-13-2006, 05:20 PM
You are welcome... do you want another jokes?

I dont have now time to enter in dialogue abuot bible, but when i will have time you will see more jokes, and alot to laugh for. Deal? deal.

ShoutGrace
05-13-2006, 05:38 PM
You are welcome... do you want another jokes?

I dont have now time to enter in dialogue abuot bible, but when i will have time you will see more jokes, and alot to laugh for. Deal? deal.

Looking forward to it. Start a new thread. Just be open minded about the information you come across therein.

bhekti
05-16-2006, 12:12 PM
Mililalil, I can see that you really have something to say and really know what to say. However, I think your explication needs more abridgement. Both in terms of length and "language". (Isn't it communication with Non-Christian what you're after?)