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muhsin
04-19-2006, 11:24 AM
Greetings,
It's in this forum I'd asked a question as: is Jesus really god? Some weeks passed, but unfortunately ended up without a single satisfied answer that can convince me to do believe that yes he is or not.
Due to that aforesaid misfortune, I start looking for that answer myself and now came across some other biblical verses that lead me to sink into more mire.
Verses:
"Hear o Israel: the lord our God is one lord"(Deuteronomy 6:4)
"Why callest me good, there is only one good that is God"(mark 10:18)
"Worship the lord your God, and serve him only"(Mathew 4:10).
My question here is that: if he-jesus is a God, why did he say that we should serve only one Lord that is God? who is that one God? Didn't that seems as muslims' God-Allah?
What is your view my fellow sincere seeker of truth? Please lets share.

papayahed
04-19-2006, 11:38 AM
Catholics believe in the Holy Trinity. 1 God but 3 seperate "beings" - God the father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. They are 3 parts that make up the one.

rufioag
04-19-2006, 11:59 AM
Its not only catholics that believe in the trinity.

But besides this, You reference Mark 10:18. I think that maybe you have placed the wrong emphasis on the verse. Yes, Jesus was saying, only God is good, and in this phrase he is stating and alluding to his diety becuase the man had failed to see this, thinking of him only as a teacher or prophet.

I also wondered about this verse but its the fact that Jesus is saying that the man doesnt realize is diety. He says good teacher and Jesus's response is like, you call me good, but only God is good but you do not recognize who I am.

The point of Jesus’ reply, however, is not to draw attention to His deity, but to help the rich young ruler understand that in absoluteness, only God is good and that he can have much more with the Lord than legal obedience. He can have a relationship, “treasures in heaven” as it were (vv. 21).

This, however, can only come by the complete and full renunciation of one’s claim to piety, followed by a turning over of one’s life to God (cf. Phil 3:7-11). But, some people really want moral piety and money, not a relationship with the Lord (vv. 22-23). Thus, the rich young ruler was indeed guilty of covetousness, a violation of the last commandment (Ex 20:17; Mark refers to it as “defraud”; the overtones with money are apparent). The commandment “you shall not covet” is a commandment (like all of them) which stands in close relationship to the first commandment (i.e., You shall have no other gods before me). What Jesus tried to do with him was, rather than point out that he was coveting, he attempted to offer him something more attractive than that which he coveted; God instead of money. It is highly unlikely with the early church’s commitment to the sinlessness of Christ that this statement is implying as much (John 8:46; 2 Cor 5:21; Heb 7:26).

http://www.bible.org/qa.asp?topic_id=6&qa_id=164

citation for references and quotes

rufioag
04-19-2006, 12:03 PM
Also, i think i can answer some of your other questions.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word is alluding to Jesus which becomes even more apparent later in John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This shows us, that Jesus was God. Now arguements have been made about the translation of Logos, but Ill agree with the translation that states that Logos represents Jesus in this instance. So, in fact, the trinity becomes aparant because Jesus is God. So by worshipping Jesus, we are worshiping only one God. I hope this helps a little bit.

ThatIndividual
04-19-2006, 12:55 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: LOL!

Of course not!!!

...that was an easy one... :D

rufioag
04-19-2006, 01:31 PM
your evidence behind your opinion is extremly in depth. Lets just say that Jesus Christ fulfilled so many prophecies that its statistically impossible that he wasnt the Messiah. Secondly, Jesus Christ rose from the dead!!! And those who claim that this is just a myth, then look up 1st Corithians I think chapter 15 is included a hymn that was recited by early christians no more than 2 years after the cruxificion of Jesus Christ. If that was a myth, it would have been stomped out by the Jewish hierarchy but it wasnt! Paul persecuted 100s of Christians and then one day decieded to become an advocate of Christianity. Why?! Why would he do that?! Because he experienced and saw the resurrected Christ. But you say, no man can be returned to life after he dies. I know! You speak the truth, no man can return to life after he dies, but Christ was God! Praise Him and thank him! What a gift!

The amazing thing, that I really consider an amazing point about Jesus, was that many of the Jews of the time though the Messiah would come and triumph against the Roman Empire. If he wasnt the true Messiah, why wouldnt he use the peoples desire to obtain glory in an attempted overthrow of the Roman government? But that was not what he did. He died for our sins. The final sacrifice. And by no other can you come to heaven and eternal life.

rufioag
04-19-2006, 02:06 PM
Muhsin, id also check out this link

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/jesusclaimshub.html

Nothing I can say, type, report can prove anything to anyone who has closed their minds to the possibility. I hope that you, as i did, delve into the facts behind Christianity and look towards sound claims with proof of evidence. The one thing im most tired of is that there are soo many claims behind the mythology of Christ, that if he did exist he was not God, and others but not one of these claims have factual evidence. But the claims of Christians to support their faith have man claims that extend to archeological record and non christian texts.

Green Lady
04-19-2006, 04:20 PM
In my belief God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings. There's no one being pretending to be three beings. There is the confusion though of why Jesus switches between third and first person when teaching though. The answer to this is that because their beliefs are the same, Jesus and God are in fact the same person in their words and words alone. They are separate in body but same in mind.

rufioag
04-19-2006, 04:31 PM
See I disagree on this fact becuase it would oppose everything that the Jews believed. The Jews believe in one God and the idea that anyone would start preaching of multiple gods would not follow the beliefs of the Jews. I dont think there is any evidence that explains your explanation Green Lady though I also, do not understand the trinity to its full extent and therefore cannot make an accurate case for my statements as well.

Green Lady
04-19-2006, 04:37 PM
There is one God. I never said there's more than one.

rufioag
04-19-2006, 04:41 PM
Please explain, you said they were seperate in body but not in mind. That phrase confused me because it sounded as if they are 3 seperate gods.

Green Lady
04-19-2006, 04:46 PM
No, Jesus is the son of God. Technically, we're all sons and daughters of God, but let's not get into to that right now. I'm kind of bleary on the Holy Ghost though. I know that the Holy Ghost doesn't have a body but God and Jesus do. Okay, now don't get controversal with me after reading my last sentence. i know many don't believe in that God has a body, but I do. It only makes sense that if He wants us to do all these things, that He have done it Himself which includes having a body.

Mililalil XXIV
04-20-2006, 01:31 AM
"Hear o Israel: the lord our God is one lord"(Deuteronomy 6:4)
The original Hebrew (reading from right to left):
שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד.

The first word, [Shema'], addressed to many souls assembled as one to hear the Word of the LORD in Communal Unity, means "Hear!". This is followed by the name of that entity addressed: [Yisra`el].

Then is what they are to hear, in a four word sentence employing only three words in all (repeating one of them):

[YHWH `ELOHEYNU YHWH `echadh].

[YHWH] is the DIVINE NAME.

[`ELOHEYNU] is literally "our_`ELOHIYM". [`ELOHIYM] is a plural term that is given the English equivalent "GODS". Though many translate [`ELOHIYM] as "GOD" into English, where it refers to YHWH (in following a convention used in the earliest Greek translation of the Torah, render the chosen equivalent in the language targeted for translation into a singular form, to express the Unity of the DEITY, as expressed in Dt. 6:4), in all uses of the term for other than YHWH, it is always and naturally rendered "gods".

[`echadh] means "one", but in a way different from another Hebrew word that can be translated as "one": namely [yachiydh].

Let us look at how [yachiydh] is used in the Hebrew Scriptures:

Gen. 22:2
And He said: 'Take now thy son, thine only [son][אֶת-בִּנְךָ אֶת-יְחִידְךָ ]....'

The hebrew portion above is [`eth-binkha `eth-yachiydhkha]. (son) takes the pronominal suffix, [-kha], undergoing a vowel change thereby. [yachiydh] (only) likewise takes on [-kha]. The prefixed [`eth-] marks the direct object the verb acts upon.

[yachiydh] operates likewise in verses 12 and 16. Notice there are in this passage three Divine Utterances concerning Isaac as the only son. In this book, Cherubim are mentioned near the beginning, as guarding the way to the TREE OF LIFE, and, later than the Abrahamic passages, there may be the only reference to mere Angels by the term [Mal`akhey `ELOHIYM] (
מַלְאֲכֵי אֱלֹהִים ), in the passage about the Ladder to and from Heaven. In one passage [chapt.18], THREE PERSONS are identified as YHWH. TWO are seen to head toward Sodom in this Epiphany, and are operating as BRINGERS of the Message of YHWH, and, therefore, are called [SHENEY HAMMAL`AKHIYM] (
שְׁנֵי הַמַּלְאָכִים ). The term means first and foremost a bearer of a Royal Pronouncement, and does not necessitate thinking of the bearer as other than the source of the Message. The Heavenly Beings that are non-human creatures are not called such a term except as Heralds. Some are called Seraphim, some Cherubim. In the rest of Genesis, ONE called the ANGEL of YHWH is also identified as GOD HIMSELF. But in the Ladder to Heaven passage, the term used is not ANGEL of YHWH, but Angels of ELOHIM.

In the deliverance from Sodom passage describes TWO that were earlier simply called YHWH and `ADHONAY - both DIVINE NAMES - as YHWH acting on earth in concert with YHWH as out of Heaven. In Christianity, this peculiar reference is given a clear significance in that TWO of the THREE DIVINE PERSONS are sent from the FATHER in a special way:
JESUS, the second named in the Trinitarian Formula (The NAME of the FATHER and of the SON and of the HOLY SPIRIT), is sent in a localized Human Manifestation - or Humanity-clad SHEKHINAH - in Which HE operated specifically upon the earth according to HIS Humanity;
and the HOLY SPIRIT, the third named in the Trinitarian Formula, sent as the PARACLETE WHO would continue on the Work of CHRIST in HIS Church, as the DIVINE LIFE giving Christian Substance to true Christians, acting as the very LIFE of the Saints still living in this world, is, as the SPIRIT given them, presently active in this world in a very special way.

In Gen. 22, we see the first mention of GOD simply using the term [`ELOHIYM], in the first Divene Reference to Isaac as Abraham's only son. The second occurance is from the Mouth of ONE called the ANGEL of YHWH (JESUS, the LAMB of GOD, WHOSE own Sacrifice was symbolically here substituted for Isaac's in the provision of a sacrificial animal - in which HE indicates to Isaac, "I'll take your place, your life is saved by MY death!"). In the third occurance, ONE is called the ANGEL of YHWH, WHO, like the HOLY SPIRIT in the Church today, speaks both as GOD and of GOD, as the SPIRIT of the Saints bearing Witness to the Oracles of their GOD.

I have more to say of the NAME of the TRINITY in a later post, as well as of the word [`echadh]. But first let me finish this post with the promised listing of the uses of [yachiydh] - which is preliminary to what follows:

These are the only other occurences in the Tanakh:

Judges 11:34
And Jephthah came to Mizpah unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances; and she was his [B]only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.

Jeremiah 6:26
O daughter of my people, gird thee with sackcloth, and wallow thyself in ashes; make thee mourning, as for an only son, most bitter lamentation; for the spoiler shall suddenly come upon us.

Amos 8:9
...as the mourning for an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.

Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look upon Me Whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.

Psalms:
22:21
Deliver my soul from the sword; mine only one from the power of the dog.

25:16
Turn Thee unto me, and be gracious unto me; for I am solitary and afflicted.

35:17
Rescue my soul from their destructions, mine only one from the lions.

68:7
God maketh the solitary to dwell in a house....

Proverbs 4:3
For I was a son unto my father, tender and an only one in the sight of my mother.

muhsin
04-20-2006, 07:00 AM
Also, i think i can answer some of your other questions.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word is alluding to Jesus which becomes even more apparent later in John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This shows us, that Jesus was God. Now arguements have been made about the translation of Logos, but Ill agree with the translation that states that Logos represents Jesus in this instance. So, in fact, the trinity becomes aparant because Jesus is God. So by worshipping Jesus, we are worshiping only one God. I hope this helps a little bit.



This manifested the truth that you didn’t read my last post. However, I’d quoted some verses like:
You have never heard His voice, nor seen His face (john 5:37)
No one can see me and stay alive (exodus 33:20)
No one has ever seen Him and no one can see Him (1 timothy 6:16)
Didn’t the Jews at his time, his family and his followers SEE Jesus and HEAR his voice?
As you can figure out, all the aforementioned verses are talking about God.
Then who is who? Who really is that ONE God?
By the way, my fellow Christian, don’t, please I beg misunderstand my critics. It’s in the Holy Bible I read a certain verse that makes me to stand up and look for the actual fact about all that I’ve so far asked. i.e.: seek ye the truth, and the truth shall set you free (john 8:32).
…………waiting…….and God bless you.

Green Lady
04-20-2006, 04:29 PM
This manifested the truth that you didn’t read my last post. However, I’d quoted some verses like:
You have never heard His voice, nor seen His face (john 5:37)
No one can see me and stay alive (exodus 33:20)
No one has ever seen Him and no one can see Him (1 timothy 6:16)
Didn’t the Jews at his time, his family and his followers SEE Jesus and HEAR his voice?
As you can figure out, all the aforementioned verses are talking about God.
Then who is who? Who really is that ONE God?
By the way, my fellow Christian, don’t, please I beg misunderstand my critics. It’s in the Holy Bible I read a certain verse that makes me to stand up and look for the actual fact about all that I’ve so far asked. i.e.: seek ye the truth, and the truth shall set you free (john 8:32).
…………waiting…….and God bless you.


I just wanted to correct one of the scriptures you quoted. 1 timothy 6:16 does not say that it in fact says: "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

Also, the passages after verse 20 in Exodus 33 say this: 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: "33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen."

So, He was seen but not His face. And the passage from John is when Jesus is talking to those that are persecuting him, telling them that they have not heard His voice, or seen His face because of their wickedness.

Stanislaw
04-22-2006, 03:09 PM
Also, the discrepencies of the bible can be atributed to man, and his influence over the writing and copying of the texts...

but, God is infact Jesus, and the holy spirit.

Not one pretending to be 3 figures, but 3 figures that infact are completely seperate and unique, yet the same.

The Holy Spirit is the breath of God, God the father, and Jesus, the son of God, made flesh. So, though they are three incarnations, they exist at the same time, and are in fact the same, yet unique.

peasoup
04-23-2006, 02:04 PM
I once read somewhere that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit could be depicted as the three physical conditions of water: liquid, solid and vapour (respectively). So they are different aspects of one whole.

Stanislaw
04-24-2006, 02:28 PM
I once read somewhere that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit could be depicted as the three physical conditions of water: liquid, solid and vapour (respectively). So they are different aspects of one whole.

that is a very good analogy!

muhsin
04-26-2006, 07:58 AM
Also, the discrepencies of the bible can be atributed to man, and his influence over the writing and copying of the texts...

but, God is infact Jesus, and the holy spirit.

Not one pretending to be 3 figures, but 3 figures that infact are completely seperate and unique, yet the same.

The Holy Spirit is the breath of God, God the father, and Jesus, the son of God, made flesh. So, though they are three incarnations, they exist at the same time, and are in fact the same, yet unique.


Well, that is nice.But as a sane figure, i think it is good for both of us to talk whenever,wherever,however etc with a good reason. So, can you qoute a single verse where Jesus says We should worship him?
Waiting........again.

muhsin
04-26-2006, 08:02 AM
I once read somewhere that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit could be depicted as the three physical conditions of water: liquid, solid and vapour (respectively). So they are different aspects of one whole.

Thanks.
But, can you help by saying this very place you made mention.
Bible? which verse.

rufioag
04-26-2006, 08:08 AM
All those in heaven worship Him -

5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing.
5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. (Revelation 5:11-14)

All the angels worship him -

And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. (Hebrews 1:6)

All the disciples worshiped him -

Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God. (Matthew 14:33)

Wisemen and rules worshipped him -

Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. (Matthew 2:2)

While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live. (Matthew 9:18)

If someone would like to expand more on these verses. My post is simply to show that He was worshipped. Ill also find some verses on the Trinity later on this afternoon but the Bible never expresseses the Trinity as the 3 phases of water, he was merely attempting to use an understandable example to show how the Trinity exists.

I mean, the Triniity is an amazing thing. The Father is not the Son, The Son is now the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. But The Father is God, The Son is God, and The Holy Spirit is God.

Take for an example we live in a 2d world and we have a God who is a cube(This is plausible becuase God is outside of time and space).Now, lets take into account 3 people and God shows himself to the 3. The first person he reveals himself as the corner of the cube(remember, in a 2d, plainar world, u can only few what is in the plain). The 2nd person he reveals a line of the cube, and to the 3rd person, he reveals the square of the cube. Now, though God is still the Cube, he has revealed himself differently to all 3. Therefore a god that exhibits extra dimensions, when described in a lesser dimensional universe would seem to represent more than one entity. Likewise, our God, who must exist and operate in dimensions beyond our understanding, exists as a Trinity (God, the Father, God, the Son, and God, the Holy Spirit), although He is one God.

peasoup
04-26-2006, 09:08 AM
Thanks.
But, can you help by saying this very place you made mention.
Bible? which verse.

No, it wasn't the Bible. It was possibly on some other forum or somewhere else on the internet. I honestly can't remember. But it made a big impression on me, so I remembered it. I think that it describes the complicated concept of the Holy Trinity in a very simple, everyday fashion.

RJbibliophil
04-26-2006, 11:28 AM
Okay, so I know I'm probably jumping in here but, the God I believe in, (who is by the way the only true god, but let's not get into that), is a trinity. He is one being, revealed in 3 distinct persons. By person, I mean personality. It's like three aspects of the same being. A person can be a mother, a daugther and a wife for example. She is only one creature, but three different aspects of a person. This is hard to explain. If we could understand everything, we would be gods. I'm not trying to excuse this issue though.
Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet. They say they agree with His teachings, but the koran contradicts the Scriptures.

Keep in mind also that Jesus is eternal. He did not suddenly come into being 2,000 years ago when He came to earth.

RJbibliophil
04-26-2006, 11:33 AM
I once read somewhere that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit could be depicted as the three physical conditions of water: liquid, solid and vapour (respectively). So they are different aspects of one whole.

This is correct. I've learned this analogy too. I agree with it. It's pretty neat to see it demonstrated. Scientifically, ice, water, and water vapor are the same thing, only at different tempetures and levels of molecule motion etc... The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are 3 equal beings who work in different ways. The Father's work was creation. The Son's work was redemption. The Holy Spirit's work is regeneration-applying redemption to the individual.

muhsin
04-27-2006, 09:02 AM
Had it been I wasfrom bed and read some of the replies i read, i would have said it's in a dream.
By the way. Not only support what you actually can't say either it's head or tail like this my bros&siss. Bring proof so that all other readers will be convinced. ok?
I think that is how most of the religion are built upon-proof.Includind mine and yours(as you think). SEEK YE THE TRUTH.........As it says by Jesus a.s.

rufioag
04-27-2006, 11:45 AM
I had something to say but Ive changed my mind :cool:

Shield&Sword
04-27-2006, 12:02 PM
I read different posts and first i see a user wrote that Jesus and Father and Holy spirit r 3 parts of one God, and then i see another user write( as i understand from him) that they r not separated, i think he mean that Jesus is WHOLE GOD so and Father and Holy Spirit, and that they r not 3 parts. Trinity is THE BASE of christianity, and i think the both of users above r christians, and i ask is Jesus part of God or a COMPLETE God, same q for about Father and Holy Spirit. Its really strange to be different views in such thing- can God be separated, or not? and if Jesus died then the first user say that a part of God died not WHOLE God, and as i understand from the second that God died not part of him.
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Mathew 3-16,17. In these verses we see The 3 parts of trinity in different places; Jesus pbuh in water and holy spririt in sky (form of dove), and Father in heaven, in that moment was God on earth or in form of dove or in heavens(if every one of them is God), and if Jesus is part so and Father and Holy Spririt, then in that moment was the complete God for first time in complete infront all? also i would like to ask, if Jesus is God, which sense there is in saying -this is my beloved son, in which i am pleased- and the father was pleased with a part of him, or he was pleased with him self. This sitution we can see it again in Mark 15-34 ''And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?'' in this verse we see again conversation between parts of trinity, one of them ask other why did u leave, was he asking him self if he is complete God or he was talking to the other part?
Perhaps the one who say that they r not 3 parts can use the verse in John1 5:7 from king James version "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." but the last part part of the verse (the important part) we cant find it in now adays bible, in new versions, we can find it in King Jamed version, and i would like to get and answer for this question, Why did they cancel it; Who gave them the authorize to cancel; and which is God word, the one with the last part or the one without? as we see the last part is one of bases of christianity.
See u all.

muhsin
04-30-2006, 08:14 AM
I had something to say but Ive changed my mind :cool:

Why so? Have I wronged you?

ThatIndividual
05-01-2006, 11:32 AM
Ok, here it is. Ready? Here's the answer...

Jesus IS god insofar as people actually worship him.
People worship Jesus = Jesus is god to those people. QED.

HOWEVER...

There is also this notion that Jesus is EVERYONE'S god... (or in other words, THE God. The Almighty God of this universe.)

rufioag
05-01-2006, 11:54 AM
So...your saying all people who have faith are mentally imbalanced?

Green Lady
05-02-2006, 04:21 PM
Okay, so I know I'm probably jumping in here but, the God I believe in, (who is by the way the only true god, but let's not get into that), is a trinity. He is one being, revealed in 3 distinct persons. By person, I mean personality. It's like three aspects of the same being. A person can be a mother, a daugther and a wife for example. She is only one creature, but three different aspects of a person. This is hard to explain. If we could understand everything, we would be gods. I'm not trying to excuse this issue though.
Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet. They say they agree with His teachings, but the koran contradicts the Scriptures.

Keep in mind also that Jesus is eternal. He did not suddenly come into being 2,000 years ago when He came to earth.

If they are all the same person, can you explain this verse:

Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Why would He be asking Himself why He had forsaken Himself?

muhsin
05-03-2006, 05:24 AM
So...your saying all people who have faith are mentally imbalanced?

This really is a misunderstanding of what i actually meant in my espression.
Any way, i am on my knees begging for forgiveness.I hope my request will be granted.

muhsin
05-03-2006, 05:26 AM
Dear seekers of truth,

“and that is why I was sent as an APOSTLE and TEACHER of the Gentiles to proclaim the message of faith and truth. I am not lying, I am telling the truth”(1 timothy 2:7)

“……christ JESUS the son of Mary was (no more than) an APOSTLE of God….(Holy Quran 4:171)

My friends. Look at the above texts, read , and re-read them for better understanding about who really is Jesus. God? Well I don’t think, but who? APOSTLE.
Satisfied? If not, let me know. I have many more dishes that can wipe your hunger of knowing truth.

rufioag
05-03-2006, 08:07 AM
My quote about mental imbalance was aimed at a post ThatIndividual had written but was edited by administration.

Also I will go onto say this. 1 timothy 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

Please, I beg of you, it can be very misleading to just copy and paste a verse because this is not anything that Jesus said. This is the writer of 1 Timothy writing who niether puts the verse in quotes or makes an attempt to say that Jesus said this. This verse is merely the thought and belief of the writer.. Why would he speak the truth in himself if it was Christ speaking? It is not so therefore the question is not needed. Jesus never said he was an apostle of God.

So I do not believe you really understand the text as well as you believe. There is not one instance in the whole Bible that shows Jesus claiming to being a prophet.

Once again, the verse quoted is not Jesus speaking.

Second) Green Lady - Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Many interpret this verse to Psalms 22:1 1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

This is a very interesting verse and later on describes the cruxificion, a death sentence that didnt even exist at the time it was written!

Consider verses 11-18 in Psalm 22:

Be not far from me, for trouble is near; For there is none to help.12 Many bulls have surrounded me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me. 13 They open wide their mouth at me, As a ravening and a roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within me. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And Thou dost lay me in the dust of death. 16 For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; 18 They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots.

The term 'dogs' was used by the Jews to refer to Gentiles (cf. Matt. 15:21-28). His heart has melted within Him (v. 14). During the crucifixion process, the blood loss causes the heart to beat harder and harder and become extremely fatigued. Dehydration occurs (v. 15). Verses 16b-18 speak of piercing His hands and feet and dividing his clothing by casting lots. This is exactly what happen as described in Matt. 27:35.

Shield&Sword
05-03-2006, 04:53 PM
Another time i jump in, sorrrrrrry.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3
Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 11:41-42
Verses above show that Jesus was sent, and in first verse its so clear who is God and who sent who. In the second its clear also that Jesus thank God that He heard his prayer, and if u go back to the bible to see the whole story u will see how he was worried (does God thank him self and does God ask things from him self?).
Jesus PRAY: Luke 6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.
(does God pray to him self? does a man pray to a part of him self?)
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. John 20:17. In this verse Jesus admit he is going to his God.
Verses of bible show so clear that Jesus is no God, and i dont know those who believe Jesus is God which verse they use. Verses which show that Jesus is a normal man and that he is not God or part of God are so clear, while we cant find one verse in which Jesus pbuh say I AM GOD, for the verses that show Jesus is normal man not God they give incredible explinaitions.
Even there are verses in bible who that Jesus has no free will and that he doesnt know any thing by him self, i dont know why they leave these clear verses and follow the strange explinations of priests.
In Italy lately a kid was kidnapped, the funny thing is that the Pope prayed to Mary pbuh to protect him, and even in bible we find no verse that show Jesus pbuh is God, they now pray to Marry like she has force or she can hear them and if we read all bible we will see Marry few times only and no describtion of her or wht happened to her, only we see her between lines here and there. And we never heared some one say to Pope what are you saying, from where u got this idea about Marry. We all have minds to think and to find questions, we dont follow only wht others say without understanding or without checking. Even i wrote the canceled verse about trinity from now adays bible and no one said any thing, no one responded, like nothing happened, trinty exist if bible say it or not, what preists say are more sacred than bible?

rufioag
05-03-2006, 09:22 PM
Catholics pray to Mary, i just want to clerify this. Most Christians do not pray to Mary and there is no reason to. She gave birth to Jesus and that is all.

It has been explained else where that God exists within a Trinity and when Jesus prayed, he prayed to God the Father in Heaven. There are countless verses that have been posted that expalin the trinity and Jesus's claims to God. I hope that you will search the truth and understand if that is your true intention.

The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59)

I am - this shows his claim to diety. It wont make sense unless you have read the whole Bible and understand the reference to the old testament.

And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46)

The key thing that you need to understand is the Trinity. And shows me key verses that have been canceled from the Bible? I think Imust have missed it.

Theshizznigg
05-04-2006, 01:04 AM
Hmm?
Really I sometimes wonder about people, and why they are so willing to disprove Christianity at times.
Are they really that afraid of a God they say doesn't exist? That they need to grasp at straws all the time to make themselves secure in their faith or belief?

Its often a wonder to me, how supposed Agnostics and Atheist know more bible verse, and are bible learned than some Christians.... Still I can only wonder.

"Often so often? Is it really so dark?"
-Space Invader #3

Theshizznigg
05-04-2006, 01:26 AM
If your having trouble understanding things try a good Christian books like Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. It contains a wealth of religious wisdom and knowledge, and makes sense out the religion without blowing it out of porportions.

"I was dreaming of that Lightbulb. I love that lightbulb. Hey I'm still a stinking Bug!" - Bug Off!
Shizz

ShoutGrace
05-04-2006, 02:20 AM
And show me key verses that have been canceled from the Bible? I think I must have missed it.


Even i wrote the canceled verse about trinity from now adays bible and no one said any thing, no one responded, like nothing happened, trinty exist if bible say it or not, what preists say are more sacred than bible?

1 John 5:7-8

"For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three are in agreement." RSV - NIV - ESV - NASB - NAB - HCSB - NLT - NCV - NRSV

"For there are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, the water, and the blood: and these three agree as one." KJV - NKJV

The KJV has long been recognized as a faulty and errant translation derived from a faulty and errant base manuscript. The KJV rendering of 1 John 5:7-8 is not found in any manuscript dating before the sixteenth century, at which time it suddenly appeared in certain translations.

What does this mean for the Christian doctrine of the Trinity? Has this scholarly discovery dashed the Trinity against the rocks? Well if it has, millions of Bible scholars around the world have missed it. 1 John 5:7-8 is not at all neccessary. Please read the the end of this (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15958&page=3&pp=15) page for a relatively complete list of exegetical determinations which explain fully why anyone reading the Bible (Old and New Testaments) must conclude that the text describes the Trinity in the fullest sense.

muhsin
05-04-2006, 06:57 AM
My quote about mental imbalance was aimed at a post ThatIndividual had written but was edited by administration.

Also I will go onto say this. 1 timothy 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

Please, I beg of you, it can be very misleading to just copy and paste a verse because this is not anything that Jesus said. This is the writer of 1 Timothy writing who niether puts the verse in quotes or makes an attempt to say that Jesus said this. This verse is merely the thought and belief of the writer.. Why would he speak the truth in himself if it was Christ speaking? It is not so therefore the question is not needed. Jesus never said he was an apostle of God.

So I do not believe you really understand the text as well as you believe. There is not one instance in the whole Bible that shows Jesus claiming to being a prophet.

Once again, the verse quoted is not Jesus speaking.

Second) Green Lady - Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Many interpret this verse to Psalms 22:1 1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

This is a very interesting verse and later on describes the cruxificion, a death sentence that didnt even exist at the time it was written!

Consider verses 11-18 in Psalm 22:

Be not far from me, for trouble is near; For there is none to help.12 Many bulls have surrounded me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me. 13 They open wide their mouth at me, As a ravening and a roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within me. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And Thou dost lay me in the dust of death. 16 For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; 18 They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots.

The term 'dogs' was used by the Jews to refer to Gentiles (cf. Matt. 15:21-28). His heart has melted within Him (v. 14). During the crucifixion process, the blood loss causes the heart to beat harder and harder and become extremely fatigued. Dehydration occurs (v. 15). Verses 16b-18 speak of piercing His hands and feet and dividing his clothing by casting lots. This is exactly what happen as described in Matt. 27:35.

This reaveals that you don't read bible voraciously. As you already know, there are different editions and prints of bible,probably the one you are using is not like the one i am, so, different people/writers/publishers/editors etc different way of expression a speech,but with same meaning.
Unfortunetly, i am now not with my bible, but i promise to tell you it's given name, it's publishers, year of publication and so on.
The aforesaid, is one of the identical factors that distinguish Holy Bible and Holy Quran.

ShoutGrace
05-04-2006, 07:30 AM
This reaveals that you don't read bible voraciously. As you already know, there are different editions and prints of bible,probably the one you are using is not like the one i am, so, different people/writers/publishers/editors etc different way of expression a speech,but with same meaning.
Unfortunetly, i am now not with my bible, but i promise to tell you it's given name, it's publishers, year of publication and so on.
The aforesaid, is one of the identical factors that distinguish Holy Bible and Holy Quran.

I don't think that the Koran and the Bible are distinguished in this way. If anyone wishes, they can read the 2nd century manuscripts in Greek. I have a New Testament Greek interlinear for this very purpose.

A book which is 4 times the size of the Koran and more than 2,000 years older is bound to be more difficult to both translate and discern. Not to mention the difficulties which arise in trying to find the original texts. But we can get close.

In this way, I think that it can be shown that the editors/publishers cannot "get away" with mistranslating the original text. Every translation aims for perfection. The NASB is exclusively literal. The NIV freely admits that at times, due to language barriers, the text has been reformulated into a sort of "thought for thought" version. It certainly reads better that way.

The texts are available in their (near) original form. Any alleged differences encountered while reading different translations can be easily researched. The responsibility to do so lies with the reader. I hold myself culpable if I fail to cross-check amongst different translations every verse I read. Thinking is an important characteristic of faith (and one I likely fail to respect most every day :rolleyes:)!

p.s. Just for my own understanding, are you saying that there is only one way to translate Arabic, that it has been successfully done, and that every English translation accurately reflects this perfect rendering?

ps.s. It is amazing that you can detect that Rufioag is not a "voracious" Bible reader from he/she's post. How did you do that?

muhsin
05-04-2006, 09:39 AM
I don't think that the Koran and the Bible are distinguished in this way. If anyone wishes, they can read the 2nd century manuscripts in Greek. I have a New Testament Greek interlinear for this very purpose.

A book which is 4 times the size of the Koran and more than 2,000 years older is bound to be more difficult to both translate and discern. Not to mention the difficulties which arise in trying to find the original texts. But we can get close.

In this way, I think that it can be shown that the editors/publishers cannot "get away" with mistranslating the original text. Every translation aims for perfection. The NASB is exclusively literal. The NIV freely admits that at times, due to language barriers, the text has been reformulated into a sort of "thought for thought" version. It certainly reads better that way.

The texts are available in their (near) original form. Any alleged differences encountered while reading different translations can be easily researched. The responsibility to do so lies with the reader. I hold myself culpable if I fail to cross-check amongst different translations every verse I read. Thinking is an important characteristic of faith (and one I likely fail to respect most every day :rolleyes:)!

p.s. Just for my own understanding, are you saying that there is only one way to translate Arabic, that it has been successfully done, and that every English translation accurately reflects this perfect rendering?

ps.s. It is amazing that you can detect that Rufioag is not a "voracious" Bible reader from he/she's post. How did you do that?

Well, you a little bit suprise me.
Sincerly speaking,yes this really makes them differ. As nobody on this planet can add or reduce a single word from Quran by any means or trick.
Have you ever heard something like Old or New Testment of Quran?
What of Bible, even I as non-christian i got these two versions.
Again, have u ever heard or seen any Quranic verse made with different Arabic language?
I swear even I, got two bible with this nature, and that is what makes Rufiog to think that i mis-qouted the verse.
Anyway, this can easily be detected as to the expression he/she mentioned, i.e I misquoted the verse. And look at the one(verse) he/she qouted,read and re-read it with sheer attention.What u'll figure is that: the verses are almost talking about one thing, the only thing that makes them different is the way each one is expressed.
Conclusively, about the first question you mentioned, i'm afraid to say i didn't get it well.do please rephrase it so that i can grab it's meaning.

best wishes.

Shield&Sword
05-04-2006, 01:00 PM
The verse in King James Version John 5:7 inform us so clearly that Jesus and Father and Holy Spirirt are, and thats what christianity untle now believe, and its the only one clear verse that show trinity and say they all are one.
In Awake magazine (Jehova) in 8th number spetember 1958 there was an article :50,000 mistakes in bible. It was talking about king James version, and i gave an example and how a verse that talk about the base of christianity was canceled which is trinity (the problem is that the verse agree with christianity and the most clear verse about this matter, and in bible there is no other verse that explain trinity and no other verse that agree 100% with what priests say only John1 5:7 in KJ version).
Now adays versions of bible are written by using scriptures older than scriptures used (closer to the age of Jesus pbuh), i noticed that when they went to the older scriptures christianity (in books) became more different from what priests say, more that Jesus is man not God, also John1 4:9 the word BEGOTTEN we can see it in KJ version but not in now adays versions.
The problem here is not only errors of translations, they are errors of ADDING AND CANCELLING ( here we have the question how much the bible is precise? 10% 30% 50% 70% 80%, for sure not 100%, in other words: not all word of God, are all mistakes that we can find in KJ version are changed now? some of christians answer (priests) this question here in this link (i have already post this link in another thread) http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1811332,00.html).
Protestant doesnt believe that Jesus is God so and Jehovah, catholic and other churchs do. A user posted about truth and to seek for it, another talk about approoving christianity and being afraid of God. According me Seeking for God is the best thing and the most important thing a man can do during his life. Protestants are considered christians so and catholics, but they are not agreed on one God. Is it a religioun of God or people?
John 8:57-59 alot of christians explain it as the fisic existence of Jesus before Abraham pbuh, and thats mean he is God. In which form he existed? in soul? as a complete human with body with blood and flesh (after his birth he was in this form)? as a bird (i dont think so, the holy spirit form)? as the father (i dont think so)? as an ovule (in his mother's womb he was in such form)? As a lamb (John saw such thing in his dream)?
Even when he was before Abraham pbuh was he son of God, or after his birth he became son of God? same thing for the Father, did he become father only after Jesus's buh birht?
The existence of Jesus pbuh is not the fisic existence but the existence in God's knowledge, we all existed before we were born, i was before Abraham pbuh so and u and every one, God know who will become when and what will be. In Islam there is a saying of prophet Muhammed pbuh he say that he was a prophet before Adam pbuh exist, no one from muslims claimed that Muhammed pbuh is God because he said such thing, all muslims know that he meant the existence in God's knowledge the non fisic existence.
Once again we dont find one clear verse that approve Jesus pbuh is God, no one verse in which Jesus pbuh say i am God.
About translations of bible alot of priests when they talk about the difference between different versions of bible they say matter of translation. Apocrypha are chapters of bible that catholic believe they are word of God so and orthodox but protestant doesnt believe they are word of God and they doesnt write them in bibles they print, while we see them in bibles that catholic print. You can go back to the meaning of word apocrypha and see what interesting meaning they have. So which bible is the true one, the one with apocrypha or the one without, which persons were right and which werent, the one who believed in KJ version or now adays versions, the one who believe in apocrypha or the one who dont? casue adding and canceling is so dangerous as John say in revelation 22:18-19.
For the user who wrote about scholars missing the cancelling of verses from bible, well u must know that scholars canceled it, and if scholars didnt say anything about cancelling of this verse it doesnt mean they are right, and that it doesnt change anything, always scholars scholars, the Pope pray to Marry pbuh without any prove we never saw a scholars say to him what you are saying, there is no such thing in bible, while the catholic church is the biggest church in world, and the Pope is considered the biggest scholar. Another priests when they talk infront christians or people they invite to christianity they use the verse John1 4:9, and if u watch the dialogue between Ahmed Deedat and Jimmy Swaggart you will see about this matter (using begotten, and how Jimmy Swaggart changed it, u can see the whole video of the dialogue), they canceled the word Begotten from now adays bibles because its a word that describe an a action that need a sexual relation to be happen, and such word cant be used with God, sex is the lowest action that animal make. Its not matter of what scholars say or what they notice, its matter of us.
About seeking for truth i believe in Jesus pbuh as prophet , i believe also in God, and God for me is different from his creatures, God doesnt eat (i cant believe God who created all this, and the must beutifull can go to bathroom and make there what he must do after eating), cant believe God walk or beaten or DIED or cry, or was born from a woman womb and even i am sure that mother of Jesus didnt believe that GOD exist in her womb so she must eat good, or when she was feeding him she believed she is feeding God, or when she was dressing him, and people who circumcised him didnt believe they are circumsing God an they got piece of him, or people who wanted to stone him, i am not making fun, asking logic questions. I believe there is nothing like God, not in form, not in force, not in existence, he is UNIQUE, He is the one, he doesnt nead us and we need him. When i read books seeking for truth i put these thoughts in a place in my mind where i can see them so clearly in my mind and begin to read, any thing that can be against these thoughts i drop it. truth is known by mind not emotions.

ShoutGrace
05-04-2006, 01:40 PM
If you actually have anything specific you want to discuss please separate it from the rest of your diatribe.

p.s. can somebody tell me what "pbuh" means?

ShoutGrace
05-04-2006, 02:09 PM
The verse in King James Version John 5:7 inform us so clearly that Jesus and Father and Holy Spirirt are, and thats what christianity untle now believe, and its the only one clear verse that show trinity and say they all are one.

As I said earlier, any person who has completely read both the Old and New testaments must exegetically conclude that the doctrine of the Trinity is present and real. Whether or not the reader wants to accept this fact is a separate issue.


In Awake magazine (Jehova) in 8th number spetember 1958 there was an article :50,000 mistakes in bible. It was talking about king James version, and i gave an example and how a verse that talk about the base of christianity was canceled which is trinity (the problem is that the verse agree with christianity and the most clear verse about this matter, and in bible there is no other verse that explain trinity and no other verse that agree 100% with what priests say only John1 5:7 in KJ version)

I would question that 50,000 number. Often times critics will cite mistakes in the manuscripts like commas missing, misspellings etc. Then they will add each of these mistakes from every one of the 20,000 existing extant copies of the New Testament and every copy of the Old Testament together; repeats and all.

Jesus clearly stated that he was God. The doctrine of the Trinity is the only possible explanation for the text of the Bible.


The problem here is not only errors of translations, they are errors of ADDING AND CANCELLING ( here we have the question how much the bible is precise? 10% 30% 50% 70% 80%, for sure not 100%, in other words: not all word of God, are all mistakes that we can find in KJ version are changed now?

This is simply a copout. As I stated earlier, if anyone wants to know what was originally written, they can just read it for themselves.


Protestant doesnt believe that Jesus is God so and Jehovah, catholic and other churchs do. A user posted about truth and to seek for it, another talk about approoving christianity and being afraid of God.

Any person who takes the Bible literally believes that Jesus claimed to be God.


Once again we dont find one clear verse that approve Jesus pbuh is God, no one verse in which Jesus pbuh say i am God.

This is just a false statement. Please see the other threads concerning this topic if you really want to educate yourself.


and the Pope is considered the biggest scholar

By whom?


and if u watch the dialogue between Ahmed Deedat and Jimmy Swaggart you will see about this matter (using begotten, and how Jimmy Swaggart changed it, u can see the whole video of the dialogue)

Is this discussion the foundation upon which you have built your beliefs? Why is Jimmy Swaggart the be all end all? I contend that he is not and I would not believe anything that he said over the Word of God.


When i read books seeking for truth i put these thoughts in a place in my mind where i can see them so clearly in my mind and begin to read, any thing that can be against these thoughts i drop it. truth is known by mind not emotions.

Absolutely! The mind plays one crucial role in apprehending truth. What is so amazing is that you are more enlightened than all the Christians around the world. You are using your mind whereas we are just using our emotions. Shame!

Shield&Sword
05-04-2006, 05:56 PM
Sorry if i offended you or any one here, when i respond sometimes i respond to users all together wihtout copying and pasting what every one said, i only make my answer one subject responding them.
Pbuh mean peace be upon him, we muslims use it when we talk about prophets like Muhammed, Jesus, Moses, Adam (for respect) when we talk about prophets we must put it after thier names. Also we use ra with prophet Muhammed companions which mean may ALLAH be pleaed with him.
I will try to respond on other saying tomorrow if Allah wants, its a little bit late here.

rufioag
05-04-2006, 09:47 PM
Its amazing the claims on here, no offense to you who disbelieve in Christ, but you simply paste and post with no real evidence. My point in the 1 Timothy verse, you got it all wrong! Paul wrote 1 Timothy and in that verse its Not Jesus talking! You say that there are 50000 errors in the Bible but you do not understand means. As quoted from Lee Strobels a case for Christ

"It is misleading because of the ways variants are counted. He explained that if a single word is misspelled in two thousand manuscripts, thats counted as 2000 errors."
"The New Testament, then, has not only survived in more manuscripts than any other book from atiquity, but it has survived in a purer form than any other great boook - a gorm that is 99.5% pure"

Now it is true that 1 John 5:7-8 is not found in manuscripts til the 15th or 16th century but this does not refute evidence of the Trinity. 2 Corinthians says May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the HOly SPirit be with you all.

Once again, the variations are minor and no substantial doctrine of the Christain faith is affected by this. Both my andShoutGrace have given ample content. But you seem to ignore bothw hat we write or choose to not accept them. We have shown many times that Jesus claims to be God. We have shown that the Trinity exists. We have shown that the Bible is consistant with its early manuscripts which u can check if u want to and truly seek knowledge as you claim.

I woudl ike to ask some questions about Islam but this is not the thread for it. If one is started Id like to ask some questions

Gallantry
05-04-2006, 11:20 PM
Ok, here it is. Ready? Here's the answer...

Jesus IS god insofar as people actually worship him.
People worship Jesus = Jesus is god to those people. QED.

HOWEVER...

There is also this notion that Jesus is EVERYONE'S god... (or in other words, THE God. The Almighty God of this universe.)
that's all dandy if truth is subjective...either the sky is blue or it isn't. Jesus is either the God or he isn't a God at all. You can either be a polytheist that believes in Jesus(that would be an interesting scenario) or Jesus is a God, or he isn't a God. If he is a God, then he is the God. Especially considering the fact that the Bible makes claims on both his deity and monotheism. As C.S. Lewis said, " A God. The God. One word can make all the difference in the world."

muhsin
05-05-2006, 06:49 AM
Hi, Mr/Mrs/Miss Ruf...., you didn't answer my question, or i should rephrase it?

muhsin
05-05-2006, 07:54 AM
Sorry, i forget to fulfill my promise of telling you guys the name of my bible as i did promise.
GOD NEWS BIBLE.
-With Deuterononical Books. Todays English version.
Printed in India by Photo Process at Swapria.printing works pvt,ltd 2002.
Publish with the king permission of United Bible Societies.
ISBN 81-7109-563-1

rufioag
05-05-2006, 07:55 AM
Yes, Please rephrase the question for me so I can attempt to answer.

muhsin
05-05-2006, 08:18 AM
Yes, Please rephrase the question for me so I can attempt to answer.

Question:
Where does Jesus say-"i am God," or" I am equal to God," or" worship me"?
But, I have qouted where he said-"I am an Apostle sent by God".-Muslims' belief.
And again, you said the verse wasn't as I qouted it, thus, I told you why think it is so, and now(before this post) post my proof.

Muhsin

rufioag
05-05-2006, 09:03 AM
Have we not given enough evidence? Once again, you constantly ignore my answers and clearly do not understand. 1st Timothy, in whatever version you read is written by Paul. There is no arguement of this.

“and that is why I was sent as an APOSTLE and TEACHER of the Gentiles to proclaim the message of faith and truth. I am not lying, I am telling the truth”(1 timothy 2:7)

That is the verse you quoted and i will use it. Paul is saying that he was sent as an Apostle and a Teacher! An Apostle is defined by 1)any important early teacher of Christianity or a Christian missionary to a people
or 2) one of the original 12 disciples chosen by Christ to preach his gospel .

Paul was an apostle of Christ, one that was sent forward to teach the message. You can choose to accept this or deny it. Or you can take a phrase out of context and not understand it. I have repeatedly attempted to make it shown to you. But lets expand from your verse to include 1 timothy 2:5-7

5For there is one God, and there is one who brings God and human beings together, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself to redeem the whole human race. That was the proof at the right time that God wants everyone to be saved, 7and that is why I was sent as an apostle and teacher of the Gentiles, to proclaim the message of faith and truth. I am not lying; I am telling the truth!

Christians believe in one God, we have established that, but we believe one God exists in the Trinity, we have shown proof of this. Here we have Paul writting about Jesus in one portion then using I in the next. Now if it was Jesus he was talking about he would have said Jesus not I.

Shield&Sword
05-05-2006, 10:58 AM
Copy and Paste? I copy and paste only verses of bible, i am sure there is nothing with that, the problem of different versions from bible was because scholars didnt copy and paste them, they reformed it according thier views. Other words are not copied and pasted, even an english person will notice my english and will notice its little bit weak. My bible is in my mother english language, and i have another one in not english language but my second language.
Who said to you i dont believe in Jesus pbuh, i do believe in him as PROPHET, no muslim is a muslim if he doesnt believe in Jesus pbuh as prophet even if he beieve in Muhammed. We follow this verse here: John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Jesus was SENT (his words, not paul or mathew or luke). Massenger or peophet need the word SEND-as all know this verb need three things: source (the one who send);the one who is sent (for sure cant be the source, the source cant send him self); destination. Jesus pbuh here mentioned God as ONE, and then we were informed that God sent some one (source) and then Jesus said about him self he was sent, destination is people. Where he said i am God. Even Jesus pbuh agree with this John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
So massenger must be sent from some one to some one, and the one who is sent(Jesus) cant be greater than the one who sent him (God).
U said i ignored ur answers and grace, well if u mean the verse about Jesus pbuh was before Abraham pbuh, i gave u and answer before (didnt ignore it). Even this verse is against trinity (trinity is FATHER-SON-HOLY SPIRIT), before Jesus was born was he SON, and the Father was a Father? always christians say that Jesus need a father coz he got mother, well before he was born he didnt have mother. Beside i gave u an answer also about what he meant, and how also we got like this saying, but no one understand from it that Muhammed is God. i was u were we all were before Adam pbuh (in God's knowledge).
Perhaps i ignored some answers u gave like Dehydration and heart beating, and loosing blood, i didnt know what respond, Dehydration happened to God? Heart beat? Loosing blood? i think ignoring these sayings better than responding.
You refuse the idea that Jesus said abuot him self i am prophet, and he is not PROPHET. Lets go back to the old test: Ac 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
As u said Jesus is not prophet, then this verse cant talk about him, and prophet didnt come yet. If u agree that Jesus pbuh is prophet then he cant be God. Godprophet no brain can accept it. The strange thing that christians who believe Jesus pbuh is God, use this verse and they say it refer to Jesus pbuh, even Moses pbuh said like me (was the son in trintiy like Moses? was Moses pbuh a God?).Please not to skip.
John 10:30 "I and my Father are one"
When i talked about Jimmy Swaggart and POpe i was talking about how they say things that even dont exist in bible and no one said to them any thing, pope pray to vergion Marry pbuh, no one said to him stop there this isnt in bible, they invented saints, no one said any thing, i gave the Pope as example because he represent the biggest group of christians, and he say things from his mind but people kiss his hand- i gave this example after u said that scholars cant miss the canceling of verses, the problem is that most people doesnt read bible, priests do the job for them and they invent thing and order people to do, i am not talking from my mind,i saw this thing in europe, and how people left bible and do what priests do.
You copied and pasted a part from what i said which is: and the Pope is considered the biggest scholar. The one who read this verse in this form will think or i am catholic, or i follow Pope, or consider him the biggest scholar. That what will happen when we cut the words of someone, but if a person read all my paste will think of non of these things. This thing reminded me with the verse John 10:30 I and my Father are one. Christians always say this verse show Jesus pbuh is God. Thats what will happen if we cut a part from all paragraph, lets take a look on the story. The story begin in John 10:22 begining from this verse we see that Jews come to Jesus pbuh and ask him are you the Christ (they were waiting for a prophet), and Jesus say respond him what he is doing and in John 10:25 he say that he make in his father's name (is he God?), and then in Jonh 10:30 he say this famous verse, but ets go on after it, begining from Jonh 10:31 we see that Jews wanted to stone because he said he is God, Jesus responded them denying he said he is God (we can understand it from his words), he ask them isnt the one who talk from God is god (according to Jews language-doesnt mean they r God), and he say if the one who talk from God is called god according your rules, then why y want to stone me if i said i am son of God. Jesus pbuh answer is so clear he didnt claim he is God, even Jews who wanted to stone him he answered them his saying he is son of God like saying to a prophet god. Then what mean i am and God one- it means that his goals are God's goals, his teachings are God's teaching, he is one with God in works and teaching, like me and u are one if we have same goal, same think. Me and my brother muslim are one because we have same thoughts same work, we are not one Fisically. In other words its a form of saying i am prophet, i do what God want(he work by God's name). In no form we can understand he is saying i am God.

Shield&Sword
05-05-2006, 11:41 AM
I will try not to mix up things here, because the thread is about Jesus pbuh, not bible, but after i saw what the 99.5%, and that i didnt gave proofs, well i gave u a link about what scholars say, and they talked about historical errors not mispealling or comma. I will try to give you proofs add cancel (cause: not using copy and paste).
Difference between NIV and NLT
First verse is: Ezekiel 23:20
NLT: She lusted after lovers whose attentions were gross and bestial.
NIV: (better not to write it, not so good words, but there are donkeys, horses and genitals not mentioned in NLT version).
KJ version:( same thing about mentioning it, but there are flesh no genitals, but donkeys and horses exist).
In NLT scholars wrote attentions, its a basic difference. There is a big difference between descirbing genitals or emission and between attentions, or cancelling donkeys and horses, if God said Horses and donkeys then they must be existed.
Perhaps the first one is more polite thats why they reformed it. still 99.5%?
Or the difference is silly, or it doesnt affect on the trinity and the whole idea of bible, but for sure it affect the 99.5%.
Its known that the original Mathew was written in Hebrew, thats why u will see alot of propheces from the old test in book of Mathew. The one who wrote it was trying to convince Jews.
KJ version Mathew 27:35 "And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots."
Now adays versions no existence for the prophecy, in a scilent way they canceled it. Its seriuos thing, or the prophecy refer to someone or not, it can be understood by logic, the one who read the prophecy in KJ version can check it in old test to see if its a prophecy that refer to Jesus. But now adays they discovered its wrong(what wbout the other prophecys).
There are alot of other things canceled here and there, not only matter of translation or mispelling or comas. The interesting thing that the canceled verses touch the base of christianity- Is Jesus pbuh the begot son of God (was canceled) ? does trinity exist(was canceled)? Does God talk such words about sex like in Ezekiel 23 (was reformed)? Even in 1952 the part from Jonh that talk about resurrection of Jesus pbuh was canceled and was putten under the page and not in the main chapters, but the canceled verces were putten again in the context of the bible not only like an explaining, it was so big to be canceled. The problem is that printing the books without the part of resurrection cost them alot.
Also about a real proof, no one talked about the apocrypha, which bible is true the one with or the one without. Trinity can be known by using apocrypha also or without? just tell me about the apocrypha chpaters, they r enough big to be Canceled or Added.

rufioag
05-05-2006, 11:50 AM
I read and understand what is written in the Holy Bible, I believe because I know that no good works will get me to Heaven.

Also when i say cut and past, im saying u just take things out of context of the era, situation, overall aspect.

Shield&Sword
05-05-2006, 04:12 PM
Mt 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. According Jesus pbuh the one who keep the commandments enter into the life, by ur work, if every one try honostly to act in good manner and keeping God's orders will get into life.
But Paul chaniged all and said that keeping the commandments doesnt make the person survive, but crossing Jesus pbuh does.
Paul canceled circumcising, and even Jesus pbuh did it.
Watching what Paul said when first time he became christians, we see his words contraddict each other, once he see light and doesnt hear voice, once he hear voice and no light. Paul Paul Paul.
They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Al-Masih, the son of Maryam; yet they were commanded to worship but One God: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him). Surah 9 verse 31.
The explaining for this verse in the Holy Quran is that their priests (christians) made the things that God not allowed allowed, and things allowed not allowed, leaving the book and whats written in it, thats why ALLAH say they took thier priests lords.
Paul said not keeping commandments will make u win, while Jesus pbuh say the opposite, Paul cancelled circumcise, while Jesus pbuh didnt even he did it. Pope pray to vergion Marry without clue from book and people follow him, also Buddhist pray to person so are they right?. Eating pig, Jesus pbuh didnt say its allowed and Jews untle these days dont eat it, while we see in bible Jesus said not all what get into u make u dirty but what go out from you (he was giving lesson about saving the mouth from speaking bad, he didnt talk about dirty that bad words cause not what food cause) then after his words are finished we see the verse said by the one who wrote the bible: and Jesus made all food allowed. Just like that.
God is known by mind not emotions, God eat God died God dress God beaten. All are words cant be said about God. God is God creatures are creatures.

ShoutGrace
05-05-2006, 04:41 PM
while we see in bible Jesus said not all what get into u make u dirty but what go out from you (he was giving lesson about saving the mouth from speaking bad, he didnt talk about dirty that bad words cause not what food cause) then after his words are finished we see the verse said by the one who wrote the bible: and Jesus made all food allowed. Just like that.

Thats correct. You yourself stated it! The man summarizing what Jesus said knew him well and and spent three years with him. Jesus took him aside at some point during those three years and explained to him better, as if that was even necessary.

Jesus said, "It is not what goes into a man that makes him unclean, but what goes out of him." He explicitly stated that he did not hold to the Jewish custom of watching whether or not your ate pork with blood or meat from which had touched the sciatica et all.

This verse is explicit. It is easy to understand. Surely this is not why you don't put your faith in Jesus?


When i talked about Jimmy Swaggart and POpe i was talking about how they say things that even dont exist in bible and no one said to them any thing, pope pray to vergion Marry pbuh, no one said to him stop there this isnt in bible

None of this matters to people who do read the Bible. Why should I bother with what the Pope or anyone else is doing?


Pope pray to vergion Marry without clue from book and people follow him

Simply stated, I do not care what the Pope does, nor do many Christians. If the Pope loses faith tommorrow and decides that God doesn't exist, what does that mean for me? Absolutely nothing. If Billy Graham loses faith tommorrow and decides that he can't believe in the truth of the Gospel, what does that mean for me? Nothing. DO NOT judge God by the personhood of men or their deeds.

ShoutGrace
05-05-2006, 04:42 PM
As for Jesus calling only God good, I guess I will cut and paste the earlier discussions which I am not sure you have read or not.


Where does Jesus say-"i am God," or" I am equal to God," or" worship me"?

re: Jesus' claims to divinity

Quote:
Jesus clearly states that he is God throughout the bible.


There are different ways that Jesus claimed to be God, be equal to God, and have a uniform relationship with God. I myself think of them in this breakdown.

------Jesus the "Son of Man"
------Use of the word "Abba"
------The "I Am" claims
------The miscellaneous claims
------The book of Revelation

The Son of Man title obviously and qualitatively (in my mind, there are Christians who have studied intensely and have a larger view) comes from one of Daniel's eschatological prophecies.

"I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of Heaven there came one like the Son of Man, and he approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. And to him was given dominion and glory and kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; His dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one which shall not be destroyed." Daniel 7:13, 14.

One interesting thing to note here is that elsewhere in the Old Testament it is only God who comes on the clouds (Ps. 104:3, Is. 19:1). Accordingly, the Son of Man originates in heaven and comes by divine initiative. The phrase as used in Daniel is "bar enash". What is the significance? The combination "bar enash" and its parallels in Old Babylonian carry the meaning of an heir or successor to royalty, or of a free man of the highest class. A "man" here is not just any man, but as we might say, "THE MAN", as in royalty.

Daniel was written at a time when this phrase had a specific and known meaning. In the context of Daniel 7:13, in which the one "like a son of man" comes to the Ancient of Days (Almighty God) and is given dominion of the sort that God alone possesses, the significance of Jesus' own "son of man" usage cannot be overstated. It is functionally equivalent to saying that he was the entity described in the prophecy. Jesus had no money but he obviously had an education. He knew that the Pharisees and the Sanhedrin knew to whom the prophecy refered. The Messiah. When he describes himself as the Son of Man he asserts the fact that he is fufilling Jewish Messianic prophecies.

Son of Man verses : Mat 8:20, Mat 12:8, Mat 12:32, Mat 13:41, Mat 24:30, 25:31, Mrk 2:28, Mrk 8:38, Mrk 14:62, Lk 9:58, Lk. 18:8, Lk 19:10, Jn 3:14, amongst many others. Also interesting to note is how severely Jews respond to his Son of Man title in certain instances.

"Abba" means "Father" when used among human beings - and to use the term when referring to God was unthinkable! It was not used by Jews in such a familiar way until the Hasidim movement, which began in the 18th century. The use of "Abba" (which equals our "Papa," or perhaps "Daddy") is "without analogy in the Jewish prayers of the first millenium A.D."

Abba is an affectionate term used by young children to talk to their biological fathers. An adult wouldn't call their father "abba", just as we today wouldn't call our fathers "Daddy". Whenever Jesus talked about our relationship to God, he used the term "pater", a respectful adult term meaning "father". For instance, when he told us the Lords Prayer, he used "''pater". Whenever Jesus talked about his own relationship with God, he used the word "abba". When he says "The reason my father loves me is that I lay down my life - only to take it up again", (John 10:17) he uses the word "abba".

In Mark 14:36, the word "abba" is used by Jesus, along with "pater". Jesus used both the familiar term and the term of respect - as did Paul in the Galatians. So these two verses read, "Abba, Father." Note that the retention of both the Aramiac and Greek words is a strong indication that the use of "Abba" goes back to Jesus Himself, since there is no reason why the early Christians should not have been satisfied with Greek equivalents for both words.

Jesus' claims to being the great "I Am" have been a source of personal joy for me. In the gospel of John, when he said "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham even existed, I Am" (8:58) I literally laughed and felt awed by his existence. I also like his style. The crowd had been ridiculing and deriding him, so he put it to them as literally and persuasively as he could.

I guess that the main history of "I am" goes back to Exodus 3:14. (God said to Moses, 'I AM THAT I AM.' And he said, 'Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.').

[I took the following from David Mark Ball's 'I Am' in John's Gospel: Literary Function, Background and Theological Implications].

Here are some other parallels . . .

* John 4:26//Is. 52:6
* John 6:20//Is. 43:1-3, 5, 10
* John 8:18, 24, 28, 13:19//Is. 43:10
* John 8:58//Is. 43:13

1. In Isaiah ani hu is "always attributed to Yahweh" and is a statement only he can make. Anyone else making the same statement would be guilty of "an attempt to claim equality with God or displace him."
2. It signifies that "Yahweh alone is God", is sovereign over history, and creator.
3. Though Isaiah is a main focus, Jesus' "I AM" sayings match him with the "the Bread of which the Old Testament spoke, the Light of which Isaiah spoke, the Shepherd of whom Jeremiah and Ezekiel spoke, and the Vine of which many Old Testament passages spoke." The words I AM "thus act as a formula which applies Old Testament and Jewish concepts to the person of Jesus who embodies and fulfills them." [end reference].

I AM thus provides a powerful self-identification in which Jesus identifies himself with the roles and person of YHWH in the Old Testament.

As for miscellaneous claims . . .

Matthew 11:27. "All things have been handed over to Me by my Father: and no one knows the Son, except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."

Matthew 12:28; parallel in Luke 11:20. "If I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you."

Matthew 23:34. "Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes..." In Jewish belief, it is God that is responsible for sending prophets. In saying that He will send prophets, Jesus is equating Himself with God - once again, assuming a role reserved for God alone.

Matthew 24:5; parallels in Mark 5:23, Luke 21:8. "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ: and shall deceive many." This statement would be meaningless if Jesus did not perceive Himself as Christ. The title "Christ," of course, is a Greek equivalent to the Jewish term "Messiah". Therefore, this can be considered to be a claim to divinity if it is shown that Christ/Messiah is a divine title.

Matthew 28:18; similar quotes in Luke 24:25, 46. In this post-resurrection address, Jesus says that all power in heaven and on earth has been given to Him - in short, power that only God has.

Matthew 26:64; parallel in Mark 14:61-4. The high priest asks Jesus directly if He is the Christ, and Jesus answers in the affirmative.

Matthew 9:2; parallels in Mark 2:5, Luke 5:20 and 7:48. Jesus tells people that "their sins are forgiven." This may not seem significant to Western eyes, so an illustration is needed. If John does something bad to Joe, then Joe can forgive John. But it would be ridiculous for Jake - unless he were somehow related to Joe - to forgive John for what he did to Joe. Forgiveness requires the RIGHT to forgive; therefore, Jesus' forgiving the sins of others that He had no personal connection with indicates that He believed that He was the only One who was offended by all sins and therefore had the right to forgive them: God, the author of all moral law. Moreover, this is particularly a noteworthy claim in the context of Judaism, for as Charlesworth notes, "The faithful Jew...acknowledged that only God can forgive the sinner." So in effect, Jesus was assuming the place and role of the entire Temple sacrificial system authorized by God and claiming to be God's broker for forgiveness.

As for Revelation, just chapter 1 ought to suffice (I'm probably running out of room!). Revelation 22:12, 13 are useful.

Jesus summarily equated himself with God. He said he came for his lost sheep (John chp. 10), and to give his life as a ransom for many (Mat. 20:28).

We can either agree or disagree with him. But I think it can be and has been (in other places by smarter and more proficient people than I) shown that Jesus himself knew himself to be the Son of God, equal to God, and the answer and hope for every person. What we do with his assertion is a separate issue.

Mililalil XXIV
05-05-2006, 05:28 PM
However, I’d quoted some verses like:
You have never heard His voice, nor seen His face (john 5:37)
This does not say that the ONE TRUE GOD had never been seen or heard, but that only the FATHER had not. JESUS, as the UNIQUE SON of the FATHER, had seen HIM in an infinite way no creature had. The FATHER is spoken here as such in terms relating absolutely and exclusively to HIS relationaship as such with the SON. This relationship is not between CREATOR and crature, but between TWO PERSONS that are, together with the HOLY SPIRIT, the ONE TRUE GOD in THREE PERSONS, in a contextc of ONE in the particular Role of the FATHER bestowing an extension of HIS own Nature as from HIMSELF to an EQUAL in an emptied state. I explained this in part in the other thread, using statements that are also in the same Book, and, thus of the same fabric of thought. JESUS no where says that the Jews had never seen the ONE TRUE GOD, nor that only the FATHER is the ONE TRUE GOD, but only that the FATHER, as such, had never been directly manifested to HIS critics - later adding in private, to HIS Disciples, that HE, as the SON, is the DIVINE MANIFESTATION of the FATHER, with WHOM HE is EQUAL. Also in this Book, in the conflict HE is in with those HE tells had never heard the FATHER's Voice, nor seen HIS Face, they even understand HIM to mean precisely about HIS SON-ship what I myself have said and believe - that it is in a sense that makes HIM EQUAL with GOD. HE never denies the statement, but later confirms it in private. In what HE says about a Psalm that speaks of mere Sons of GOD as "gods", HE points out a thing that might have made them think HE adduced less about HIMSELF, leaving it with their consciences to wonder why they could only take HIS words as stating something more than this. In effect, then, they were coming to such suspicions about HIM without HIS even having to suggest anything outside of accepted Scriptural statements - yet, despite this, they wanted to pretend that only HIS assertions had moved their minds in this direction.

In the Hebrew Scriptures, people see the ONE TRUE GOD, but not the infinitude expressed within the DEITY by the FATHER to the SON. It doesn't mean the PERSON WHO is the FATHER wasn't seen - but had it meant such a thing, the only way the clear examples of men seeing GOD in the Hebrew Scriptures could be explained would be by the fact that not only the FATHER is the ONE TRUE GOD, and that a different PERSON of the TRINITY had been seen.

1 Timothy 6:16 also refers to GOD in all HIS Infinitude. One must always seek to find, as you are doing, why exactly a certain thing is said a certain way at a certain time, in a certain context.

Exodus 33:20 is in a part of Moses' progression into deeper familiarity with GOD as HIS Friend.

Mililalil XXIV
05-05-2006, 06:01 PM
Well, that is nice.But as a sane figure, i think it is good for both of us to talk whenever,wherever,however etc with a good reason. So, can you qoute a single verse where Jesus says We should worship him?
Waiting........again.
In being baptised by none other than John the Baptist, JESUS declared HIS DEITY. John was preaching in the desert of Judah saying, "Do Penance, for the Kingdom of the Heavens is drawn near." In declaring this Kingdom, he had a certain KING in mind, the MESSIAH. In this train of thought, the Baptist, a descendant of the High Priest Aaron, elder brother of Moses, added this proclamation:
"A Voice of one crying in the wilderness, 'Prepare ye the Way of YAHWEH, make straight HIS Paths.'" HE understood the KING at hand to be YAHWEH HIMSELF. [See Matthew Chapter 3]

JESUS, in coming to be baptised, had no sin to repent of, nor to do Penance for. HE came, as the FOUNDATION, to be the BEGINNING of the Baptism HE would give, into the NAME of the FATHER and of the SON and of the HOLY SPIRIT. John, who alone of created men was blameless enough to baptise others, tried to prevent HIS Baptism at first, saying he was in need of what HE would offer. Before meeting JESUS, John prophesied that such a ONE would make HIS public appearance, and that the SAME would have a greater Baptism to offer than his own. That is the one John wished to recieve, knowing it to be the Entrance Rite into the Kingdom of the Heavens. In immersing HIMSELF in the Water to be used for Entrance into the New Life, HE made the Baptism to have its source in HIS own experience as the MEDIATOR between GOD and man.

In accepting John's recognition of HIM as the ONE that is mightier than the one who is the Voice referred to above, in John's declaration out of a Prophecy of Isaiah, HE acknowledged HIMSELF also as that ONE WHOSE Way John prepared, and that HE alone could offer Baptism with the HOLY SPIRIT and Fire. Thus, in seeing John as preparing HIS Way in fulfillment of the Prophecy about a Voice calling for the Way of none other than YAHWEH to be prepared, HE acknowledged from the commencement of HIS public Ministry that HE is YAHWEH.

The Baptism of JESUS issues from HIM. That means HE, as GOD, gives GOD's SPIRIT, as only GOD could do. The Passage I have referred to is full of allusions back to many potent statements by GOD and HIS Prophets about none other than GOD. I will go over those when the time is suited to the task. The NAME of the FATHER and of the SON and of the HOLY SPIRIT is one DIVINE NAME, naming THREE PERSONS on a par, in a variety of Roles assumed for our sake.

I have much more to say, but have been pressed for time amidst many great pressures of circumstance.

Mililalil XXIV
05-05-2006, 06:07 PM
I read different posts and first i see a user wrote that Jesus and Father and Holy spirit r 3 parts of one God, and then i see another user write( as i understand from him) that they r not separated, i think he mean that Jesus is WHOLE GOD so and Father and Holy Spirit, and that they r not 3 parts. Trinity is THE BASE of christianity, and i think the both of users above r christians, and i ask is Jesus part of God or a COMPLETE God, same q for about Father and Holy Spirit. Its really strange to be different views in such thing- can God be separated, or not? and if Jesus died then the first user say that a part of God died not WHOLE God, and as i understand from the second that God died not part of him.
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Mathew 3-16,17. In these verses we see The 3 parts of trinity in different places; Jesus pbuh in water and holy spririt in sky (form of dove), and Father in heaven, in that moment was God on earth or in form of dove or in heavens(if every one of them is God), and if Jesus is part so and Father and Holy Spririt, then in that moment was the complete God for first time in complete infront all? also i would like to ask, if Jesus is God, which sense there is in saying -this is my beloved son, in which i am pleased- and the father was pleased with a part of him, or he was pleased with him self. This sitution we can see it again in Mark 15-34 ''And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?'' in this verse we see again conversation between parts of trinity, one of them ask other why did u leave, was he asking him self if he is complete God or he was talking to the other part?
Perhaps the one who say that they r not 3 parts can use the verse in John1 5:7 from king James version "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." but the last part part of the verse (the important part) we cant find it in now adays bible, in new versions, we can find it in King Jamed version, and i would like to get and answer for this question, Why did they cancel it; Who gave them the authorize to cancel; and which is God word, the one with the last part or the one without? as we see the last part is one of bases of christianity.
See u all.
DEITY is what all three PERSONS each completely is. My being a complete human does not crowd out your being a complete human. You and I are one nature, but two persons of that nature.

Shield&Sword
05-05-2006, 06:18 PM
"he didnt talk about dirty that bad words cause not what food cause" this is a part from a previuos paste, i mistaked by putting DIDNT, i meant Jesus pbuh was talking and giving lesson about bad words not about which food is allowed.

rufioag
05-06-2006, 01:36 AM
Mililalil, thank you for the response. I enjoyed the reading and I had never really realized the full significance of the passages that you described.

water lily
05-06-2006, 04:32 AM
About seeking for truth i believe in Jesus pbuh as prophet , i believe also in God, and God for me is different from his creatures, God doesnt eat (i cant believe God who created all this, and the must beutifull can go to bathroom and make there what he must do after eating), cant believe God walk or beaten or DIED or cry, or was born from a woman womb and even i am sure that mother of Jesus didnt believe that GOD exist in her womb so she must eat good, or when she was feeding him she believed she is feeding God, or when she was dressing him, and people who circumcised him didnt believe they are circumsing God an they got piece of him, or people who wanted to stone him, i am not making fun, asking logic questions.

Shield&Sword,

Your reason for not believing that Jesus is God is so fascinating to me. And yet no one has commented on it thus far, and so I shall comment! So this is what I think you're saying: God is so holy, so sacred, so above the degradation of this fallen world that you cannot fathom the circumstances under which this, the Holiest of beings, would lower Himself to the state of a mere man in all his filth and uncleanliness. It makes sense.

But for me, as a Christian who believes that God did just that, the shamefulness of it all makes Jesus' sacrifice all the more powerful. This holy being lowered himself to our level, he was shamed, he was ridiculed by those he created, he faced digustingness--the Son of God, he did all this. Why? Because if he didn't, none of us would make it to Heaven, because he loved us so much, that he was willing to go through that.

Anyways, thank you for getting me thinking Sword&Shield, although my thoughts ended up heading in a different direction than yours.

-Water Lilly

water lily
05-06-2006, 04:59 AM
This thing reminded me with the verse John 10:30 I and my Father are one. Christians always say this verse show Jesus pbuh is God. Thats what will happen if we cut a part from all paragraph, lets take a look on the story. The story begin in John 10:22 begining from this verse we see that Jews come to Jesus pbuh and ask him are you the Christ (they were waiting for a prophet), and Jesus say respond him what he is doing and in John 10:25 he say that he make in his father's name (is he God?), and then in Jonh 10:30 he say this famous verse, but ets go on after it, begining from Jonh 10:31 we see that Jews wanted to stone because he said he is God, Jesus responded them denying he said he is God (we can understand it from his words), he ask them isnt the one who talk from God is god (according to Jews language-doesnt mean they r God), and he say if the one who talk from God is called god according your rules, then why y want to stone me if i said i am son of God. Jesus pbuh answer is so clear he didnt claim he is God, even Jews who wanted to stone him he answered them his saying he is son of God like saying to a prophet god. Then what mean i am and God one- it means that his goals are God's goals, his teachings are God's teaching, he is one with God in works and teaching, like me and u are one if we have same goal, same think. Me and my brother muslim are one because we have same thoughts same work, we are not one Fisically. In other words its a form of saying i am prophet, i do what God want(he work by God's name). In no form we can understand he is saying i am God.

Dear Sword&Shield,

In your reference to the John 10:22-40 story, I'm afraid I disagree with your interpretation (and really it isn't so nice to disagree with people, but in this case really I feel that it can't go unsaid).

You say that oftentimes Christians reference John 10:30 ("I and the Father are one") as proof that Jesus is claiming to be God. Your argument is that Jesus and God are one in that they share the same beliefs. However I must disagree, because directly following Jesus' statement, John 10:31 reads "Again, the Jews picked up stones to stone him." Why did they wish to stone him? Becuase they believed he had commited "blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God" (John 10:33). Clearly the Jews interpreted Jesus saying "I and the Father are one" as a claim to divinity and that is why they took offence and wanted to stone him.

Now, my dear Sword&Shield, you also mention Jesus' answer to this accusion, so let's examine it. It is a little confusing, but here it is:

"Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your Law, "I have said you are gods" If he called them "gods," to whom the word of God came--and the Scripture cannot be broken--what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own a nd sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy becuase I said, "I am God's Son?" Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even t hough you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you mau know and understand that the Father is in me and I in the Father."

Alrighty, so what is Jesus saying? He is saying, "Do not judge who I am by what I say, because anyone can claim to be God, but judge me by what I do, by the miracles I perform that prove that I and the Father are one."

When he talks about "gods" he is refering to Pslam 82. This pslam talks about the judges of Israel. It declares that even the judges (the gods) will be judged by the Judge (the God)--showing that the judges are lower than God and are not actually gods. Jesus references them to show that people who merely claim to be gods are not necessarily gods, one must judge by their actions, not their words.

So opposite to what Sword&Shield argues, I think that this passage shows that Jesus is claiming to be God, in his words and in his actions.

Well I hope all that was clear. :nod: All my best,

Water Lilly

Shield&Sword
05-06-2006, 07:25 AM
Water the conditions that God passed is so fascinating for me. God was shamed??????!!!!!!!!!! God was beaten???????!!!!!!! God go to bathroom???????!!!!!!! Why?? because he love us???? Why??? cos he couldnt forgive human for human race??
Well according me God love us and forgived for Adam and Eve pbu them directly no reason that a son get his father sin (no justice, not logic), and he passed non of these above.
Beside crucifixion of Jesus pbuh is another matter (according islam he wasnt crucified, God raised him to heaven). Always from begining of history untle nowadays giving a sacrifice (an animal) need 3 parts, the one who give the sacrifice (the one who want to repent, like son of Adam pbuh who killed his brother) the sacrified thing, and the one who is the sacrfifice gived to so he forgive for the first one. We see son of Adam pbuh gave a sacrifice to God so he forgive him, so and Abraham instead of his child he gave to God.
According christianity God couldnt forgive so he GAVE JESUS AS SACRIFICE, to whom he gave? when Jesus was killed (u say he is God) who was the third part, who accepted the sacrification. God Killed him self for him self so he forgive people? people Killed Jesus (God according you) and in same time sacrifice was gived for same one who is killed? need a little bit of fanatasy.
But let us not to mix threads toghether.

Shield&Sword
05-06-2006, 07:47 AM
Untle now no one single verse that show Jesus is God, only gathering verses from here and there like puzzle. I dont know why the Father in new test is so clear he is God, while Jesus pbuh no one clear verse about him, God show himself directly and say i am God, coz its the base of every relgioun. Knowing God directly is the center, God present him self in so clear way.
One verse that Jesus is prophet i gave so and other, and they are so clear he is sent by some one.
Abuot John 10:30 after people wanted to stone Jesus pbuh the answer he gave to them show he is not God, its so clear, the problem was that Jews didnt get the meaning of son of God, and they were asking him are you the Christ, he answered them an answer that Jews can get, its matter of Jews language. Even in other parts in new test we see that a Jew talk to himself and say who is that who claim to be prophet, no one looked ate him as God. coz he didnt claim such thing, and no mind can accept it, and no one believed he is God at that time. We see the Father so clear as God but Jesus not. Even the companions of Jesus pbuh ask them to show them God, why after all that time with him they ask him show us God if he is God, and they are the people who can understand him, then he respond them who see me saw God, he wasnt speaking about seeing with eyes he was talking about understanding me, its known that God no one can see him, this is the center of religioun, who believe in Prophet of God believe in God, who understand prophet understand God, because prophets are one in God's goal and teachings. Thats why in islam denying Jesus pbuh as prophet mean that you are out of islam, because believeing in prophets is believeing in God, because they are the only way to know God they only way to understand God, and to know what God order us and what his purpose in life for us, and how to get the heavens, no one must die for me and u, no one pay for sins others did, always massege of God was understood: this earth is an exam, who follow God and try his best will get the eternal life, and who refuse it will loose, this is the comon thing between all prophets massage: to know the only one God and the prophet he sent begining from Adam pbuh finishing with Muhammed pbuh.
Trinity Jesus is God Holy Spirit is God Father is God, they are not three Gods but one. Its not logic at all, and i dont know when was reading a whole book will be the result a non logic phrase. A user say i and he/her are one in nature, yes we are but we are 2 persons, does this mean Jesus is God and Father is God, they have same nature and they are 2 Gods?

muhsin
05-06-2006, 09:09 AM
Have we not given enough evidence? Once again, you constantly ignore my answers and clearly do not understand. 1st Timothy, in whatever version you read is written by Paul. There is no arguement of this.

“and that is why I was sent as an APOSTLE and TEACHER of the Gentiles to proclaim the message of faith and truth. I am not lying, I am telling the truth”(1 timothy 2:7)

That is the verse you quoted and i will use it. Paul is saying that he was sent as an Apostle and a Teacher! An Apostle is defined by 1)any important early teacher of Christianity or a Christian missionary to a people
or 2) one of the original 12 disciples chosen by Christ to preach his gospel .

Paul was an apostle of Christ, one that was sent forward to teach the message. You can choose to accept this or deny it. Or you can take a phrase out of context and not understand it. I have repeatedly attempted to make it shown to you. But lets expand from your verse to include 1 timothy 2:5-7

5For there is one God, and there is one who brings God and human beings together, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself to redeem the whole human race. That was the proof at the right time that God wants everyone to be saved, 7and that is why I was sent as an apostle and teacher of the Gentiles, to proclaim the message of faith and truth. I am not lying; I am telling the truth!

Christians believe in one God, we have established that, but we believe one God exists in the Trinity, we have shown proof of this. Here we have Paul writting about Jesus in one portion then using I in the next. Now if it was Jesus he was talking about he would have said Jesus not I.

Wonder never end.who told you it wasn't jesus who says he is an Apostle.OK let it be so.
But, how about this one:"......Jesus on Nazareth was a MAN whose divine authority was clearly proven to you by all the miracles and wonders which God PERFORM throgh him........Acts 2:22.
Question: Whoever was sent by God, what is the name given to him? is it not an APOSTLE/PROPHET?
Look at the word PERFORM, this reflects that even the Power jesus uses it isn't his, but God's.

Please, be sincere when talikng.

Shield&Sword
05-06-2006, 10:00 AM
Daniel Book is used alot to talk about Jesus pbuh. Its amazing how he lived in that time and knew about future. But first did Daniel really wrote his book? Did the one who wrote the book of Daniel live at the time he is talking about?

Lets begin with Daniel 1:1-2 "In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it. 2And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand,"
We see that Jerusalem was sorrounded by king of Babylon in the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim. King of Babylon sorrounded Jerusalem in the year 596 B.C or 567, and the third year of the reign ot Jehoiakim was at 606 B.B
Lets take a look at Kings2 24- 6 So Jehoiakim slept with his fathers: and Jehoiachin his son reigned in his stead. 7 And the king of Egypt came not again any more out of his land: for the king of Babylon had taken from the river of Egypt unto the river Euphrates all that pertained to the king of Egypt. 8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother’s name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem. 9 And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, according to all that his father had done. 10 At that time the servants of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up against Jerusalem, and the city was besieged. 11 And Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came against the city, and his servants did besiege it. 12 And Jehoiachin the king of Judah went out to the king of Babylon, he, and his mother, and his servants, and his princes, and his officers: and the king of Babylon took him in the eighth year of his reign.
The story contraddict with what Daniel book say. In kings2 we see that Jehoiachin was the king of not Jehoiachim when king of Babylon attacked, and it was a short period of 3 months, and a writer of history cant mistake such a mistake by non knowing the king in his time and what heppened in that time especially when it heppen such a big thing like war, such a mistake happen when the writer didnt live in same time, when the write write long time after things happened, especially when its so short time, the writer cant notice it. In knigs2 the writer lived at that time and knew who was the king and gave so specific information that only who live at that time can know it or a short time after it happened.
There is another problem, the age of Jehoiachin in kings2 is 18 years, while it contraddict with what written in Chronicales2 36:9 "Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: ", difference of 10 years in age, and 10 days more than what is written in knigs2 (the period he was king). The age was changed in now adays copies, it became 18 years, difference was so big, perhaps 10 days not so big. Another problem. In Jeremiah 22:18-19 "Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah; They shall not lament for him, saying, Ah my brother! or, Ah sister! they shall not lament for him, saying, Ah lord! or, Ah his glory! 19 He shall be buried with the burial of an ***, drawn and cast forth beyond the gates of Jerusalem." It contraddict with Kings2 the end of Jehoiakim according Jeremiah was that he buried with the burial of an *** out of Jerusalem. A wrong prophecy, or Kings2 is wrong.
But Mistake of Daniel book is so dangerous.

Daniel 9:"1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;
2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem."
The writer of Daniel say I Daniel understood by books, its seems that the writer of this phrase read from onld books of Jeremiah, while they were at same time, and its impossible that Daniel got the books of Jeremiah, and to read them and write from them especially when the book of Jeremiah was taken as part of bible at 200 B.C. Beside Daniel suppose to get his words from God why does he need others books to read and to understand and then write. It seems that its some one who is reading from old books long time after Daniel. And Daniel perhaps he heared this this thing from Jeremiah but not his books, because books of Jeremiah were written after his death, read Jeremiah 25:1. Who is the writer of Daniel Book?

Bookd of Daniel is full with historical mistakes, and we see the writer write about the future so precise, while he mistake about the past, he mistake a critical mistakes about the time he lived in.

Lets see now the clouds and winds and the one who supposed to be God who fly between them.
Samuel 22:10-11 "He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet. 11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind."
here the one who they say he is God is riding on an angel, this angel is a little one with wings, search in google and see the form of this angel cherub, God is bigger than to be described with such word, one say God was ashemed, one dehydration, one bleeding, one died for us, one beaten, one eating, one God flying in clouds.
NLT Samuel2 22:11" Mounted on a mighty angel, he flew, soaring on the wings of the wind." The name of the angel vanished here, he became almighty, perhaps more respect in saying almighty, but does God ride angels and fly?
CEV Samuel2 22:11 You rode on the backs of flying creatures. You appeared with the wind as wings.
Angel vanished, they are plural now, and no specified creatures

here the one who they say he is God is riding on an angel, this angel is a little one with wings, search in google and see the form of this angel cherub, God is bigger than to be described with such word, one say God was ashemed, one dehydration, one bleeding, one died for us, one beaten, one eating, one God flying in clouds. No respect. All only to approve something that doesnt exist, when someone read bible we see specified numbers, we see names, animals names, citys, but God the canter of all doest present him self.
In old test God fight with Jacob and Jacob win, God wake up like drunk, God regret, God get tired.
God is God:
Surah 19 (called Mary, this chapter in Holy Quran talk about Mary pbuh, and respond people who said she made adultry, and show how honest she is and talk about Jesus pbuh) verse 88-96: 88] And they say: The Beneficent Allah has taken (to Himself) a son 89] Certainly you have made an abominable assertion 90] The heavens may almost be rent thereat, and the earth cleave asunder, and the mountains fall down in pieces, 91] That they ascribe a son to the Beneficent Allah. 92] And it is not worthy of the Beneficent Allah that He should take (to Himself) a son. 93] There is no one in the heavens and the earth but will come to the Beneficent Allah as a servant. 94] Certainly He has a comprehensive knowledge of them and He has numbered them a (comprehensive) numbering. 95] And every one of them will come to Him on the day of resurrection alone. 96] Surely (as for) those who believe and do good deeds for t them will Allah bring about love.
Surah 3 (Ale Omran, family of Mary pbuh) verse 79 "It is not (possible) for any human being unto whom Allah had given the Scripture and wisdom and the prophethood that he should afterwards have said unto mankind: Be slaves of me instead of Allah; but (what he said was): Be ye faithful servants of the Lord by virtue of your constant teaching of the Scripture and of your constant study thereof."
Surah 5 verse 115 "And when Allah will say: O Isa (Jesus) son of Marium (Mary)! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things."

This What every prophet say: surah 21:25 "And We did not send before you any messenger but We revealed to him that there is no god but Me, therefore serve Me." Thats how God present him self directly not by puzzle, or by trying to explain verses that can have alot of meaning.
May Allah guide me and all of you.

Shield&Sword
05-06-2006, 02:45 PM
"DEITY is what all three PERSONS each completely is. My being a complete human does not crowd out your being a complete human. You and I are one nature, but two persons of that nature."
So there is nation of gods also, 3 gods. Doesnt seem monothism.

You said the Father no one heared him and saw him but the son yes which is another form of God. Well in Mathew 3:17 people heared voice of father, and that he was pleased with him.
Jesus pbuh is equal to his father? Who se should believe you or Jesus pbuh?
John 14:28 "... I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."
John 13:16 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."
And Jesus admit and say alot that he was sent from the father.
If as u said the son is form of father shouldnt be equal to him? beside if the father is same son, does this mean Mary pbuh was pregnant with father also, all toghether?
All i got from what you wrote that there is more than one God. Even the example you gave and i pasted above show that there is more than one God.
Trinity as known is The Father is God, the son is God, the holy spirit is God but they are not 3 Gods they are one God (not logic) .
if we accept the first part of trinity then we must agree that there are 3 gods, if we accept the second part then we must accept that the Father is part of God so and Son so and Holy Spirit (this idea mean that part of God died for humanity not whole God).
Jesus pbuh admit he doesnt know anything by him self, and he cant do any thingalone, and he was praying to God and he was sent by God and father is greater than him and he has God (John 20:17, first time i see God has God) all these things doesnt make you refute the idea that Jesus is God? or it doesnt affect his form as God?
Always there are explanatians about trinity that appeared and vanished and image and the most famous example was the Egg: once one (he said he got answer from priest) told trinity like egg there is the outside part and the white part and the yellow part and they form the whole God, the answer was simple-does that mean God is 3 parts? he didnt say any thing, he said the priest told me.
Simply trinity cant be accepted by logic, in bible we see all 3 in one place in same time and then they are not 3 but one, and then every one from them are whole God. Now the Father is not the whole one God, this is said by Mililalil. Another user said they are 3 parts, if trinity is logic and christianity has one simple definition for it that mind can accept wont be all this contraddiction between thoughts.
Thinking Good about is important, believing he is the most powerfull, the one the almighty, these thoughts are from the good deeds that man do is life and they are important they are center of belief. The canceled added verses you said dont infleuence the fact that trintiy exist, the sexual language said by God, believeing God died beaten, eat fight cry regret tired doesnt know bleed feel lonely, all this doesnt infleuence that Jesus pbuh is God.This is the problem, the idea that Jesus pbuh died for you and that Jesus pbuh is God made you speak bad about God, made you change bible made you throw bible behind you,, and describing God with words even mountaints get into pecies because of it, all this only to believe something that Jesus pbuh didnt say by Him self, even his words show the opposite. Romans 16:1-16 God didnt forget to say to Paul to deliver hello to people, even he mentioned them by name, while he forgot to present himself.
Good deeds make u enter eternal life and this thing said by Jesus pbuh and its the massege of all prophets, to believe in one God and to act well, if every one act as God ordered then life will be better, we cant live like that eating and sleeping and believeing Jesus made every thing for us, i cant do any thing, who said you cant enter heaven with your deeds.Paul said changed every thing by saying not good deeds make you enter heaven but the crucifiction, follow preists not Jesus pbuh?
May God guide us all and gather us with all his prophets pbu them in heaven

rufioag
05-06-2006, 04:55 PM
Explain to me why the Trinity is not logical?

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/xdimgod.html

i have posted this before, please read. It is a great explanation of the Trinity. I hope it helps and I pay that you will open your heart to this.

Also, when did Jesus say you enter Heaven through deeds? I think you misinterpreted the verse. Could you please post a small reply with the verse you refer to and a small response.

This is the explanation through which deeds will not get you into Heaven.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23)

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6)

I do not set aside the grace of God,for if righteousness be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!(Galatians 2:21)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his ONLY BEGOTTEN Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

http://www.cornstalker.com/cartoons/christoons/gal2.html

If you could enter Heaven through deads, then Christ died for nothing...that says it all I think.

rufioag
05-06-2006, 05:10 PM
Despite the clear Biblical evidence for the Trinity, some have objections based on misunderstandings of Scripture.

Jesus said: ‘My Father is greater (meizon) than I’ (John 14:28). But this refers to the Father’s greater position in Heaven, not superior nature. Philippians 2:5–11 states that Jesus had equality by nature with God, but voluntarily took on the lower position of a servant. The same arguments apply to related passages about Jesus submitting to His Father’s will.

The word ‘better’ (kreitton) would have been used to describe superiority in nature if this is what had been meant. Indeed, kreitton is used to describe Jesus’ superiority in His very nature to the angels (Hebrews 1:4). The distinction can be illustrated in the human realm by the role of the Prime Minister—he is greater than us in position, but he is still a human being like us, so is not better in nature.

Jesus is called ‘the firstborn of every creature’ (Colossians 1:15). However, in Jewish imagery, ‘firstborn’ means ‘having the rights and special privileges belonging to the eldest child’. It refers to pre-eminence in rank more than to priority in time. This can be shown in passages where the term ‘firstborn’ is used of the pre-eminent son who was not the eldest, e.g. Psalm 89:27, where David is called ‘firstborn’ although he was actually the youngest son.

‘Firstborn’ does not mean ‘first created’; the Greek for the latter is protoktisis, while firstborn is prototokos. In fact, the verses after Colossians 1:15 show that Christ Himself is the creator of all things.

Jesus is Son of God. From this, some cults try to show that Jesus is somehow less than God. But in Jewish imagery, ‘the son of’ often meant ‘of the order of’ or ‘having the very nature of’. For example, ‘sons of the prophets’ meant ‘of the order of prophets’ (1 Kings 20:35); ‘sons of the singers’ meant ‘of the order of singers’ (Nehemiah 12:28). Jesus’ Jewish contemporaries understood that He was claiming to be God, which is why they wanted to kill him for blasphemy (John 19:7).

Jesus is the ‘only-begotten Son’ (John 3:16). The Greek word translated ‘only-begotten’ is monogenes, which means ‘unique, ‘one of a kind’. Jesus is the unique Son of God, because he is God by His very nature (see above). Believers in Him become ‘sons of God’ by adoption (Galatians 3:26–4:7).

This is shown in the human realm by Hebrews 11:17, where Isaac is called Abraham’s ‘only begotten son’. Abraham had other sons, but Isaac was the unique son of the Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis chapters 15–18, 20), born when his parents were old.

bhekti
05-06-2006, 05:54 PM
There is something in the world of linguistic, especially that which is developed by M.A.K. Halliday, and which is called Systemic Functional Grammar (the "opposition" of Chomskian linguistic), that I think can be used as a metaphor to "explain" the logic of the concept of "trinity", that is to say, the concept of "three but one, one but three, all at once"

One clause is realized in three ways: as a message, as an exchange, as a representation (or ideational). For example, the clause "the sky is blue" is realized in three ways.
1. As a message: blue is the color of the sky
2. As an exchange: the clause "the sky is blue" exists in a context of communication ( I tell you that the sky is blue, for example)
3. As a representation: the clause stands for a fact (that is, the fact of the sky and its being blue)

One clause in three functional realizations, or, metaphorically speaking, "personalities". What seperates the three is their realized functions.

...... umh. I think I will try again later. I am sleepy now...

muhsin
05-07-2006, 10:33 AM
Brother/Sister Shield&Sword.
Remamber what Allah(Swt) says about people like those people:"....He whom God(Allah) guides is the(rightly) guided, but he whom He leaves astray-never will you find for him a protecting guide(18:17).
Just pray for His guidance as He says we should: "Guide us to the straight path(1:6)
Then, if Allah permit, they will hear our/His call and follow a true path.
Please, i beg of you to try as much as possible to wind up this long argument.
By the way, what's your rael name? I am Muhsin.
take care.

Shield&Sword
05-07-2006, 12:48 PM
Brother Muhsin may Allah guide us all to right path. And gather us in paradise with all his prophets.

rufioag i dont think u read my posts dont you?
You asked me to rewrite what i wrote already, while i read almost of your posts.

You said the father is greatest than the son because the Father is in paradise and son on earth, where is your clue for this explanation, God is not relative to something, if God create something better than other we cant say God is greater if he relaited to the best thing or less if he is relaited to the less good. Greatness of Father is absolute thing, and is Jesus pbuh is God then his greatness cant be misured according something he created. Beside if you read the chapter where Jesus pbuh said this phrase you will find that he was talking about Father, they asked him what is the way to reach life, he answered them that he is the path to God, he is the way, does this mean he is God? every prophet is the way to God, Moses pbuh is the way to God, Noah, Abraham, Isac, Ismael, David, Solmon peace be upon them and all prophets. At time of Abraham pbuh he was the right way becuase he got the right massege, at time of Moses after chainging massage of prophets pbu them before him, Moses became the only way because through Moses pbuh we can know what Abraham pbuh said and what all prophet pbuh said, at time of Jesus pbuh after people chainged massage of Moses pbuh, he became the only way because only with the words and massage of Jesus we can know God (not with the changed massage) and can know Moses and Abraham and all pure prophets pbu them all. Then they ask them to show God he respond them with words that mean who saw me (Jesus pbuh) saw the Father, he wasnt talking about seeing with eyes, because no one see the almighty God in this life, but the more important thing is to understand God, to believe in what he sent, in what he said, in what he ordered, in thinking good about God, in praising him, in believeing the pure peophets (not believing that Lot pbuh was drunk and made adultery with his own doughters, not in believing that Solmon pray to stones, not believing in Jacob that he fight with God, or David that made adultery with the wife of one of his soldiers). ANd he say then than God is greater than him, because its true, Jesus pbuh is man was created in a miracle made by the only almighty God.
If you read also in same chapter you will see that the Father does greater things than Jesus pbuh did (Jesus pbuh did things by his Father not by him self) not only what he did infront people through Jesus pbuh.
There is no one verse that show Jesus pbuh is strong as God or can do miracles alone.

If you have read my previuos pastes u wouldnt write about John 3:16.
The word BEGOTTEN, i saw that you wrote in with big letters, its important word really, because if someone is begotten from someone then he must be in same nature even if they will be 2 persons.
This words was CANSELED from nowadays bibles, you can find it in King James version but not in bibles used in these days, Who canceled it? scholars for sure. Why? because first Jesus is not the begott son of God, second Begotten is an action of animals, it need sex to be happened, and such word cant be used to describe God. This what happen when they cancel in so scilent way the words, cant be seen people will use it, even the phrase with begotten word preachers still using untle these days to preach, while it was vanished, Jesus pbuh is not Begott. Perhaps the answer will be it doesnt infleuence the fact that Jesus is God as usual. Here we must use brain not emotions, thats what i meant.

Trinity, when the principle verse that describe was canceled you said it doesnt infleuence trinity (we cant find in all bible this word, after John1 5:7 was modified by SCHOLARS). Dont know why always when someone explain trinity he begin to give examples: eggs, sun ( light,heat,radietion; but they are not 3 suns they are one, do you see how they play with words, but all 3 are part of sun), sky, geometric shapes, if trinity is the only result that you can get from reading bible, then mention the verses that made you arrive to this result (unlogic result). A user arrived to conclusion that Father is not only one God (dangerous phrase) after a long paragraph explaining trinity. Every one give a difference explination that kill others explinations and complicate things and arriving to conclusion or 3 gods or 3 parts of one God.
Always they say God died for us, who died? Jesus, ok did Father died? no, did Holy Spirit died? no. Mary is mother of God, why is she mother of God? Jesus is her son, Is she mothe of Father? no, is Holy Spirit is her son? no. Dont know which language is this.
Rufioag explain with your simple words trinity.

Paul, always Paul, where is Jesus?
Who is Paul? Paul was the 1st enemy to the followers of Jesus pbuh. once when he was walking (once he heared voice and didnt see light, once he saw light didnt hear voice, once he saw light and heared voice) and then became christian and even BECAME PROPHET, why? because he said so. And he began to get words from God.
All you gave is verse from Roman words of Paul, Jesus pbuh was circumcised, Paul canceled it (who gave him authoroty?)

Mathew 19:17 "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
But Paul has another opinion.

Here in chrismas my friend went to a party in center of the city, he made a little video, then when he was back he said to me come and watch what they said, then i saw in the video that there was a lady with microphon, and was talking to the public who is wearing red underware? and then she took her underware above pants and said i got one ( here in christmas people wear red underwears it will bring luck). Another friend said to me that he drink like a mad person (first miracle Jesus pbuh did according bible was changing water to wine). Sure the lovers slept toghether, disco all things, but how many where in church in that night, the night in which God according you was born. No preist talked against these things, every one dance drink in yards shouting. Do you know why all this happened, because every one believe he will get into paradise because Jesus died for him becuase no good deeds make them enter paradise, what ever they do is not important Jesus pbuh did all for them, no respect in that day, at least in that day for thier god, this what happen when you carry this thoughts, you cant say its right or wrong, because not doing right or wrong will make you enter paradise but believing Jesus died for you.

Crucifiction of Jesus is not logic from the begining, first if God love humanity he can simply forgive Adam and Eve pbu them, they mistaked, but thier children dont carry thier sin, not logic, not fair, beside God before he create Adam he knew what they are going to do, and from begining earth was prepaired, God doesnt play and create things because he feel lonely or to show his glory, God is wise, almighty he know what will be and what was. You cant say God COULDNT (this word cant be used with God) forgive humanity, and then the poor Jesus pay for all.
As i wrote before sacrification need 3 parts, one who accept sacrification, one who is gived as sacrification, and the one who sacrifice. Son of Adam gave sacrification to God, so he will be pleased with him, so and every generation after doing bad they present sacrification to God or in religious events . If God couldnt forgive and he need sacrification, how it would be that he killed him self so he forgive, who is the one who accepted the sacrification? the one who died? the one who died killed him self so he could forgive people? Logic? who gave the sacrfiied Jesus? God gave a sacrifice him self to him self? logic?
About sacrification we can talk about it and see if Jesus was really sacrified.

I would like to hear something about the canceled verses, or modifeid vereses, contraddiction. and how u could untle now use them to approve things u believe while the bible is chainged (the unchangable word of God). Or you behaive like they werent written at all or heared said it doesnt change any thing, but perhaps the base of belief also changed like all others.Beside all canceled modified added verses touch the base of christianity: trinity, begotten, prophecy (like the canceled one in Mathew), sexual language, history.
May Allah guide us all.

rufioag
05-07-2006, 01:57 PM
My apologies if you believe that. I do read them but sometimes have a hard time following, this is why I asked you to rewrite the question you asked in a way that was easier to find agian. Once again, my apologies.

Shield&Sword
05-07-2006, 03:37 PM
Its ok, i am the one who must appologize for thinking such way, glad that u read, perhaps i write long posts.

Shield&Sword
05-07-2006, 03:40 PM
Brother Muhsin sorry if i didnt write my name, you can call me shield&sword ;) niiiiiiiiiiiice to meet you,

Scheherazade
05-07-2006, 08:28 PM
Muhsin and Shield> In the light of your recent posts, I will have to ask you to make your points clearer and avoid simply quoting verses or other websites in your posts please.

subterranean
05-07-2006, 08:35 PM
Greetings,
It's in this forum I'd asked a question as: is Jesus really god? Some weeks passed, but unfortunately ended up without a single satisfied answer that can convince me to do believe that yes he is or not.



What kind of answer are you looking for anyway?

Personally, I never really understand why someone asked such question. If you then became satisfied that you finally be able to decide to believe or not, so what?

Mililalil XXIV
05-07-2006, 11:43 PM
In speaking of THREE EQUAL PERSONS WHO are EACH, wholly GOD, there is no anomily to reckon with. The FATHER never emptied HIMSELF. The SON emptied HIMSELF, but this does not mean HE nullified HIS DEITY - HIS emptying involved humble submission to HIS EQUAL. A woman is no less than her husband. If the couple has children, the father may keep working and be head of the household, while, as a concession to serve the care of children, the mother sets aside many rights of adulthood to act as mother. She entrusts her lot to her husband in so doing, living off of hie provision to some degree, yet her work for the children is a replication of her husband's own parental concern that the children have a good mother, no less than her own original sentiment enacted (if he is a godly father). The LORD JESUS CHRIST, being spoken of in Scripture as the WISDOM of GOD, in feminine cases grammatically, did in an infinite way what many a great, self-sacrificing mother does. Her acting in this concessional way does not weaken her husband's worldly connections, nor her ability to regain what she laid aside later, once a mighty work has been accomplished. Great is the Work of the SON, which proves the Virtue of the FATHER, in that the SON acted in concert with HIM in Heart.

Shield&Sword
05-08-2006, 05:22 AM
Stop quoting verses??!!!! We are talking about relgioun, we are not going to throw them behind our backs and talk from our minds, are we?
Sites were to give example, sorry if it wasnt leagal to put sites. Youo can all go to Protestant church and catholic church and buy both bibles and check what i said, dont enter in sites if you want. ( before i wrote wrongly that catholic and protestant have 2 varses more in bible, i am sorry i meant catholic and orthodox, protestans dont haav 13 and 14 of Daniel.
Verses i quote show so clear that they were fabricated and changed, my idea is clear. A seriuos verses were fabricated, and they present the base of christianity, if there is something not clear i will try to make it more clear.
Beside if we are not going to use verse then what we are going to use, its religious talk, and verses are best who can talk.

The question of where Jesus pbuh said i am God or worship me, because in every relgioun God present him self directly in so clear way, because God is base of religioun, and if you read verses of sending Hello from God in Paul's writings you will find names, so clear names, check it. While one single verse that Jesus is God, all what we saw is canceling dangerous verses, trintiy, begotten, son of God, prophecys.
While we see so clear that Father presented him self as God in more than one verse, and that Jesus pbuh is massenger.
Thats why its not logic to worship someone didnt present him so clearly. Go back to posts before.
About trinity, In your example father and mother they are 2 persons, are there 2 Gods son and Father? beside, If God is The Father and the son, my question simple, DId the Father died? Did the holy spirit died?
In every example you give you will arrive to the conclusion or there are more than one God, as in example of now, or they are 3 parts as you said that the Father is not the only one God. Always priests say The Father is whole God so and Son is whole God, so and Holy Spirit, but they are not 3 Gods they are one, While you said Father is not the only one God (so clear, or there are more than one God, or Father is part of God, there are no other choices, you cant create third choice to explain this phrase).
Try to use the verses that made you arrive to the trintiy. You said that its the thing that you will conclude trintiy, please show me verses, and how you concluded.
I say again if there is something not clear please point it.

Logos
05-08-2006, 09:58 AM
A note to everyone:

Please keep cutting and pasting verse from texts to a minimum.

"These forums are not here for preaching, or attempts to convert, nor promote other religiously affiliated websites."

rufioag
05-08-2006, 01:13 PM
Sword and Shield, please understand that no example can perfectly explain a belief and understand that sometimes an example that makes sense to one person will not be relevant to another.

"Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit." (Isaiah 48:16)

ve-'atah adonay YHWH shelacha-niy ve-rucho

How can God simultaneously exist as both singular and plural? It is a logical impossibility if God were restricted to the three dimensions of space and one dimension of time of our physical universe. However, the attributes of God, given by the Bible, provide a reasonable explanation of how this paradox can be resolved. God transcends time and space(this is biblical) and therefore cant be restrained to our knowledge of our physical universe.

But i have concluded once and for all.

Shield&Sword
05-08-2006, 02:29 PM
My point was that trinity every one explain it as he like, not only here i saw explinations. Only wanted to asy that there is no one definition that gather all christians, some say they are parts, some say they are three complete but not three they are one, and watching the explination of the second opinion will arrive to that they are 3 parts, or they are 3 persons (gods). My point was that trinity verse gone, and any one who take the bible that people use nowadays and read it (wihtout having previuos opinions, or knowledge about trinity or that Jesus pbuh is God) he wont arrive to any conclusion of trinity, or that Jesus pbuh is God, especially if he know that seriuos verses vanished.

Me too learned more and more through this thread, i searched more in bible and learned new things. All i hope that you didnt feel any offence Rufioag or any christian here, or attacking your religioun, because me too believe that Jesus pbuh is equal to Muhammed, and believe that he is one of the greatest prophets, and his birth was a miracle made by Allah ( if Allah say to something be and its, he is not son of God, he was an alive miracle of Allah), and i believe that his mother Mary pbuh is one of the greatest women on earth she is pure and vergion(first miracle in islam that Jesus made was that he talked when he was baby and showed that his mother is innocent from what people said about here (that she made adultery) all in Mary chapter in quran 19), i believe that Jesus pbuh had a book from God called vangele (Muslims dont believe its what we have nowadays). So all what i wrote wasnt to attack Jesus pbuh, and ho could attack him or any prophet of God they all are pure and most honest they didnt mistake or were drank or made adultry God protected them, we pray to God that he gather us all with his prophets in paradise. At the end i say even if i believe in Muhammed peace be upon as prophet and refuse Jesus peace be upon him as prophet then i am out of islam and wont enter paradise, same thing if i refuse any other prophet that Holy Quran talked about or didnt talk. May Allah guide us all to right path.

rufioag
05-08-2006, 03:42 PM
No offense taken Shield and Sword. Just as you adamently(really) believe that Jesus was a prophet equal in status to Muhammed and that the Holy Bible has been changed, I strongly believe that Jesus lived life without sin and represents the 2nd part of the Trinity. You are clearly entitled to your beleifs and your points were well taken. I honestly cant explain all your questions becuase I have never asked them myself. And, just as you searched for answers, so will I.

Shield&Sword
05-08-2006, 04:53 PM
Rufioag only i pray that Allah guide us all to right path, only my advice in searching is to use compleatly the mind, and consider all parts, not to leave emotions contol us. Only adviiiiiiiiice ;) . was nice talking, a little bit strong , but nice. I think me too cncluded here.

muhsin
05-09-2006, 09:03 AM
That is good!

ThatIndividual
05-09-2006, 09:19 AM
Ok.... Here goes, for a third time.

There are amazingly interesting views on this in Sigmund Freud's

The Future of an Illusion.

It's a book. It's literature, actually. This forum is entitled "religious texts" I believe, so... this post should be ok.

Nothing else about the Freud. I won't say anything at all...

I love Jesus. Jesus is also a great guy, thought I'd throw that in there too...

I've just re-read my post, from the top to here. THIS ONE SHOULD NOT BE EDITED. I AM SURE OF IT. DON'T WORRY WITH IT, I ALREADY CHECKED IT OUT. IT'S FINE.

Mililalil XXIV
05-10-2006, 02:29 PM
My point was that trinity every one explain it as he like, not only here i saw explinations. Only wanted to asy that there is no one definition that gather all christians, some say they are parts, some say they are three complete but not three they are one, and watching the explination of the second opinion will arrive to that they are 3 parts, or they are 3 persons (gods). My point was that trinity verse gone, and any one who take the bible that people use nowadays and read it (wihtout having previuos opinions, or knowledge about trinity or that Jesus pbuh is God) he wont arrive to any conclusion of trinity, or that Jesus pbuh is God, especially if he know that seriuos verses vanished.

Me too learned more and more through this thread, i searched more in bible and learned new things. All i hope that you didnt feel any offence Rufioag or any christian here, or attacking your religioun, because me too believe that Jesus pbuh is equal to Muhammed, and believe that he is one of the greatest prophets, and his birth was a miracle made by Allah ( if Allah say to something be and its, he is not son of God, he was an alive miracle of Allah), and i believe that his mother Mary pbuh is one of the greatest women on earth she is pure and vergion(first miracle in islam that Jesus made was that he talked when he was baby and showed that his mother is innocent from what people said about here (that she made adultery) all in Mary chapter in quran 19), i believe that Jesus pbuh had a book from God called vangele (Muslims dont believe its what we have nowadays). So all what i wrote wasnt to attack Jesus pbuh, and ho could attack him or any prophet of God they all are pure and most honest they didnt mistake or were drank or made adultry God protected them, we pray to God that he gather us all with his prophets in paradise. At the end i say even if i believe in Muhammed peace be upon as prophet and refuse Jesus peace be upon him as prophet then i am out of islam and wont enter paradise, same thing if i refuse any other prophet that Holy Quran talked about or didnt talk. May Allah guide us all to right path.
Those that say the TRINITY are each only modes of one PERSON, or THREE PERSONS that are only each partially GOD, or GOD in descending order of degrees neither agree with the internally agreeing statements on the TRINITY in the Bible, nor with the unanimous Testimony of the early Church Fathers. Many unschooled Laity that mean well have in recent centuries tried to flatter opponents of the TRINITY and have influenced even the private judgements of some of the Clergy that were once their pupils. I can demonstrate from the whole early Church all that I say. Many of the silly explanations given - even sometimes more recently parroted by Catholics - are originally from sects that were never part of the Church, and whose views were thought satanic novelties from the beginning by all the early Christians. The Catholic Church did not form in some obscure corner. It was publicly conspicuous from the beginning, and incurred Roman censure almost right away. All of the other groups that claimed to be Christian only lend credibility to the Catholic Church. The Valentinians pretended a secret Apostolic Succession along the pattern of the Catholic one, and imitated the Sacraments of the Catholic Church, with ludicrous modifications to them. They used the Writings that made it into the Catholic New Testament, but allegorized everything written in them, showing that they felt a need to make due with the accepted Books, accepted before the Valentinian sect existed. What similarities existed superficially between Valentinians and Catholics shows the preeminance of the Catholic Church, which had like Rites abroad well before the Valentinian sect developed in a dark corner in a single, limited locale. How could every Catholic Parish on earth copycat an obscure, secret sect in a place of no significance to most Dioceses? Even Arius, whom "jehovah's witnesses" try to use as their ancient champion acknowledged that the Catholic Church had always been, and, while still suspected of holding heresy in his heart, was in utter terror of being excommunicated from the People of the TRINITY. I could go on and on. My point is that the contradictory versions of the "Trinity" are all from non-Catholic opinion, but that the pure Catholic Doctrine, as delivered in the beginning, remains for ever true, and the one, unanimous word on the TRINITY. One who has not learned the whole Teaching on the TRINITY might mistake a sermon on one aspect of the TRINITY for the Teaching on the whole of the matter, and mistake the ommissions as denials of the rest through silence - while it might just be that the rest has no immediate bearing in substantiating the aspect under discussion.

muhsin
05-14-2006, 07:02 AM
What kind of answer are you looking for anyway?

Personally, I never really understand why someone asked such question. If you then became satisfied that you finally be able to decide to believe or not, so what?

When in doubt, tell the truth.
Look at the aforesaid qoute, what do you grasp?
hahahahaha!!!