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TodHackett
02-27-2006, 12:49 PM
A Comment:

The "old man" character is introduced in the chapter prior. I realize now that he sort of jumps in in the middle of this chapter; I'm not sure whether that's good or bad...

As always, suggestions, criticisms and thoughts are greatly appreciated...

Chapter VI:
“The Keep”

“Sudden in a shaft of sunlight
Even while the dust moves
There rises the hidden laughter
Of children in the foliage”
T.S. Eliot, “Burnt Norton”

If we walked through the city as if in a dreamscape, then passing through this portal makes me feel as if I were passing into a dream within a dream.
It takes some time for my weak eyes to accustom themselves to the dim interior of this place; once I have regained my vision my apprehension is confronted by the strangest, most surreal play of sensations.
First, there is the apparent size of this chamber. Surely, from the outside, this hovel looks as though it could stretch only a few paces, if that. And yet, laid out before us is the most spacious and luxurious of rooms. The space defies logic, but the evidence stretches out in front of us, and one must conclude that this room is larger inside than out. A strange trick of the brain!
It is a dining hall, of all things, with seating enough for a score or more. Its high, vaulted ceiling is partially collapsed in one place, and so the roof is shored up by a carefully designed series of props and wedges. The center of the room is dominated by a single, immense table, draped in an ornate cloth and set with fine china, goblets, candlesticks and decorative silverware. The table is cut into strips by dim light that draws my gaze upward to the western wall. Set into it are three panes of glass. They are cracked but not shattered, and the light that passes through them has a ghostly, eerie quality. It catches little particles of dust as they dance in the air; as I turn away I catch the glimpse of some form in the corner of my eye. I turn back toward the form and it is gone. Vanished into sunbeams and dust.
And now I see the wall opposite the window, and I am transfixed. It is festooned with tapestries, most of which look to be at least a dozen generations old, some even older. They are dim and worn, but I see that each tells a story—here, one depicts a battle raging across the vale just outside of town. There is another, showing a number of people gathering and crushing grapes while others gather the running juices into kegs.
The oddest thing, though, is the horn. A simple brass cornet hangs from a wooden peg on the eastern wall. The tarnish on it is so thick it has almost turned black; cobwebs have gathered on it and I’m quite sure that some manner of insect has made a nest in its bell. Still, though, one can tell that it was once a truly amazing instrument.
I just stand for a good long time. I take it in, watch my companions do the same. The sweat has gathered on my brow; I am weighed down by gear and I notice that my breath has grown heavy. And as I stand here, at the doorway to this dream-world, I can only stare, thinking: it seems like I’ve been here before, seems so familiar.
My eyes move across the faces of my companions, one to the other. I see Elwin first; he trembles slightly, much as he tries to hide it. In his eyes is a look of terror, as though passing through that doorway were intruding into God’s great kingdom. I see Ivan next; the thug’s eyes dart to and fro; he looks like a burglar casing a store-house. At the moment, his eyes have alighted on a single golden goblet that sits in the center of the table. He eyes Elwin with a sneer. Elwin has seen it too; the fair-haired warrior gives Ivan a look that says, clearly and firmly, ‘don’t touch’.
But among the other companions, there are more interesting reactions. The twins are already wholly engaged in examining the place. One to each wall, they peer over every tapestry, investigate every artifact. Eva, meanwhile, just stands in the doorway, arms folded, eyes glued to the old man. She watches him with something between curiosity and suspicion. My eyes follow hers, and now I see the old man’s face once more.
And now, here, where I can see him in the dim green light that filters in from misty panes, his face looks different. And for the first time I can see into his eyes. His eyes shine, white and full as the moon—huge, empty expanses scratched by red streaks. Behind that glare roams some terrifying, caged leviathan; I can plainly see that some demon ravages his mind even now. He opens his mouth to speak; I hear him mumble something about ghosts, and a tower.
I can take it no longer. “This tower,” I ask calmly, holding on to each tremulous breath, “where might I find it?”
His expression is something like shock. But he does not speak, not then. Instead, he motions me to follow him, which I do. He leads me into a sort of library, strewn with old volumes and curiosities. At one end, two chairs sit in front of an old fire place. One of them is caked with dust; I can’t help wondering if it has ever once been used. He asks a simple question, then: “What do you know of Skara Brae?”
I am elated, to say the least—be still my restless heart! The feeling is more than that, though; I feel a powerful spirit, a mix of indescribable and intense passions. It is surreal, being here. And exciting, and terrifying. But the old man’s face bears no emotion, and so I work to hide mine. And so I reply coolly: “Nothing, really. But I should like to know more.”
“Wait here a moment,” he says. And with that, he disappears into a dark room at the rear of the library. I am about to follow when he emerges. In his hand he holds a dusty bottle, and two glasses, their outsides coated, also, with dust. He speaks:
“You are travelers, yes? Newcomers to the town of Skara Brae?”
What an odd question! To my knowledge, every living being is a ‘newcomer’ to this strange place, save for the hermit himself. Still, I play along, so as not to upset the old man. “Yes,” I say, “we are. Why do you ask?”
“Hmm…” he replies. He uncorks the bottle and casually pours two glasses, as though the vintage in his hands is not truly ancient, as though even disturbing the dust on that flask were not a crime. And when he speaks, he speaks nonchalantly: “Well, it seems you story has flowed into mine.” He smiles at that, and sits, and motions for me to do the same. In a flash, it occurs to me that in this place, every act is a crime. It is a crime to breathe this air, to drink this wine. Here, it is a crime even to sit. We should not have come; we should not have ruined the sanctity of this place.
So be it. I am a criminal now, and in the next few moments, I will destroy that which time has taken decades to create. I clear the dust to take a seat, and drink my first sip from the ancient glass. The old man opens his mouth, and speaks…

Sierra Nevada
03-02-2006, 12:14 AM
Hello,

I'm new here, and read the previous chapter you posted as well.

First of all, I liked your punctuation and thought it was intentional. In my mother language most people now the proper punctuation, the rules are clear and thus the common rule is, in literature, it's what sounds right, brings your meaning out the most.

Personally I'm not a fan of Science Fiction and Fantasy, unless they are very delecate, like Kazuo Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go. Anyhow I think there is a more "literary" style to your writing than say Tolkien or something, right? I have to say I do wonder why you write it such a strongly fantastic story, because those visions would be very strong in a more "natural" type of novel.

So I think the symbolistic expression is where you are very strong here, but when you move to the more traditional descriptions, in my opinion your words are bit too strong. When you say for example: "In his eyes is a look of terror" it sounds an exaggerration, at least to me, and I like more delecate ways of expression. For instance like: "There is an unfamiliar glow in his eyes, as if he was unusually scared, or mayne it is just my fear that I see in his eyes." You know, you'll know what fits there but I mean avoid overdoing it. Also it seems to me that your narrator pretty much knows evrything, and if you insist on writing him like that, then you should prove him unreliable at some point, which maybe you do, I obviously don't know.

The tapestry part is very beautiful, unusually beutiful even for a sequence in apublished novel, for my taste that is. Also when you describe the glass and dust, I believe it shows you have great talent.

I would be very interested in seeing how you write about other than fantastical material, how you would express those themes in a less dramatic setting. Also I wish to ask, do you add another theme than the political one at some part? I believe literature deep down is more about the private, and maybe you could give more weight on how those feelings effected you, did they break your fantasies, hurt someone you know and so on.

Anyhow, I do realize there are just different ways of writing, but you seemed to satisfy my taste so much at some passages, I thought maybe you haven't thought of it from the perspective I watch from. But feel free to disagree, everyone. :goof: Is the usage of somewhat technical terms among very poetic images intended?

Also I think the ending is a bit too dramatic, although the idea is great. Could you find a more delecate way of expressing it?

I think you have a more delecate way with descriptions than what Scifi and Fantasy often does, and when I hear words like portal in such text, it creates maybe a bit comical effect. Which is a compliment for your words really. I can't help but think how beautiful a novel you could write if you picked a different setting for thoughts and symbols, maybe just an old place that isn't completely real where you meer someone real, or maybe something more like in Italo Calvino's The Invisible Cities. I think you write more poetic than him. :D Really do, if you can tell from such amount.

On the whole I was pretty impressed. How long have you written? That actually inspired me, made me see the beuty in literature once more.

Would you tell me what you think about these types of literature and means that I promote here?

blp
03-02-2006, 09:18 AM
I really agree with a lot of what Sierra Nevada says. A lot of your writing sounds very natural - which probably means, in fact, that it's written quite carefully or 'delicately' as SN puts it - but then it's bathetically undermined by melodramatic phrases and fantasy kitsch archaicisms like 'to and fro' or 'brow' instead of the more usual and colloquial 'forehead'. There are also sense issues frequently, for instance when you say that you wonder whether a chair's ever been sat on at all. There's no reason to imagine this - it just obviously hasn't been sat on for a while - so it sounds like overdoing it. Later, having said this, you say, just prior to sitting down on it, that you're about to undo that which time has taken decades to create. Again, overdoing it, but also getting into a sense tangle - are you really about to do something criminal, as you suggest, or just about to shift some dust on the chair? There's a lot of this kind of thing you need to look out for. I think the main thing is to be wary of trying to say too much.

I like this much better than the other chapter you posted. The description of the room and its tapestries reminds me of Raul Ruiz's strange film 'The Mystery of the Stolen Painting', which is also interesting in the light of SN's comments because it's very definitely not a fantasy film, but refers to a sort of fantasy world in order to work with symbolism. Probably rather hard to find, but worth having a look if you get a chance.

TodHackett
03-02-2006, 11:28 AM
All--

Thank both of you for taking the time to read this and comment on it. Looking up at it, I'm intimidated by the very look of the text.

The whole "melodrama" thing is a criticism I've gotten before, and it's valid. I'm just not sure what to do about it. Also, to me it makes sense, given the nature of the character whose voice this is in (you're missing the previous chapters, so you wouldn't really know Mitchell, my narrator. But I envision him as something of a showman-romantic). The problem is, at the end of this section, when the book shifts to third person, I'm not sure but what I keep up with the theatrics and melodrama. It does bother me, but then I look at others who have written that way (Nathanael West, Chuck Palahniuk, and (dare I say it) Byron in Childe Harold) and I get a little more okay with it.

What may be happening here is that I'm writing as a romantic, not as a haiku poet. And I wouldn't be bothered by that, if it were a choice. But the pure and simple fact is, it isn't. I wouldn't know how to write like Basho or Tanizaki if I tried... I just don't have that sort of mastery over subtlety. At least, not yet.


Personally I'm not a fan of Science Fiction and Fantasy, unless they are very delecate, like Kazuo Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go. Anyhow I think there is a more "literary" style to your writing than say Tolkien or something, right? I have to say I do wonder why you write it such a strongly fantastic story, because those visions would be very strong in a more "natural" type of novel.

Let me say something here. When he was first published, Kurt Vonnegut (who is one of my favorite authors) was classified as a SciFi writer, and therefore somewhat of a hack. This, b/c his first few novels (his first three were _Player Piano_, _The Sirens of Titan_ and _Cat's Cradle_, if I'm remembering right) had certain elements of SciFi in them-- robots or robot-like creatures, extraterrestrial voyages, and scientifically created, yet "magical", substances and gadgets.

KV is not a SciFi writer. He's a writer who borrows some ideas from SciFi, sure, but that's not the end toward which he's working. It took people quite a long time to see that.

Similarly, my novel is not really fantasy. All the people could have been real; there are no strange creatures, no magic (well, that's not true exactly. It's complicated, but should become clear as I write the book itself). But the setting is similar to what one would likely see in a fantasy novel, and chunks of my plot are borrowed from a fantasy RPG, so there's going to be that element in it. But I make every effort to make the town of Skara "real", in a sense. I've done research on what sort of people, culture and economy one would be likely to find in a late-15th century town in northern Europe, and (on that limited understanding) I try to emulate it. That's going to alienate some of my readership, I know, but it's necessary for the work. I just don't see how I could write it any other way.


Also I wish to ask, do you add another theme than the political one at some part? I believe literature deep down is more about the private, and maybe you could give more weight on how those feelings effected you, did they break your fantasies, hurt someone you know and so on.

I've tried to layer a number of themes here, although the political one is quite strong throughout. But along with that, there's a lot of dreaming going on in the book (I explore Freudian theory here... quite a lot, actually), and a lot of tension between dream/reality and art/reality. There are personal relationships, of course, and a couple instances of serious betrayal at the end of the book. But, other than the first 50 pages (which are now a solid draft), I still have a lot of scraps, images and scenes without continuity, without a story. That's part of the reason I entered the contest, actually-- to force me to get down to the business of making sense of the first 100 pages. To that end...


I really agree with a lot of what Sierra Nevada says. A lot of your writing sounds very natural - which probably means, in fact, that it's written quite carefully or 'delicately' as SN puts it - but then it's bathetically undermined by melodramatic phrases and fantasy kitsch archaicisms...

You're right, blp. And what you're seeing, often, are passages that I put in as "connectors", intending to polish them later. The fact is, a lot of my first drafts are painfully "kitschy", and I work hard to refine them later. Sometimes I don't work hard enough.


There are also sense issues frequently, for instance when you say that you wonder whether a chair's ever been sat on at all. There's no reason to imagine this - it just obviously hasn't been sat on for a while - so it sounds like overdoing it. Later, having said this, you say, just prior to sitting down on it, that you're about to undo that which time has taken decades to create. Again, overdoing it, but also getting into a sense tangle - are you really about to do something criminal, as you suggest, or just about to shift some dust on the chair? There's a lot of this kind of thing you need to look out for. I think the main thing is to be wary of trying to say too much.

Huh. I really liked the chair bit. Maybe that's the problem-- I liked it too much, and just couldn't stop going on about it. "Kill your babies," Stephen King would say, and that's probably why. I'll take another look at it, blp, with your suggestion in mind. At the same time, I want to make sure the reader remembers the whole chair thing, b/c it parallels a few scenes later on in the book. So in a sense, I do want it to "stick out". Having said that, I don't want it to be just plain coarse.

As for the criminality thing-- ironically, that's actually borrowed from Tanizaki (apparently not well), and also foreshadows images that occur later in the book. I see no problem with it, but then, I'm not my reading audience-- you are. So, I'll take a look at it.

Oh, and while we're on the subject of reading audiences... why don't you take up writing again, blp? From the short passage I read, I could clearly see that you have the chops to write that novel you gave up on. So why don't you? If you do start again, I'd like to see your progress. Oh, and I'll take a look for the film, blp.

SN, I have been writing all my life, but seriously writing-- on this novel and school papers-- for about eight years, give or take. I started _Legend_ in the months after 9/11... you do the math.


...maybe just an old place that isn't completely real where you meer someone real, or maybe something more like in Italo Calvino's The Invisible Cities. I think you write more poetic than him. Really do, if you can tell from such amount..

The setting, however kitschy, is necessary to the integrity of the work. It's just not something I can change, not now.

Having read Calvino and loved him, I don't know what to say, SN. Your statement profoundly encouraged me. You have paid me a truly amazing compliment. Thank you. A lot.

There are a number of your criticisms I didn't address here. They have not gone to waste... I'll take a look at them when I have time. Now, I have 1/2 hour and two books on my desk that need to be rush cataloged. [Sigh!]

TodHackett
03-02-2006, 12:28 PM
First of all, I liked your punctuation and thought it was intentional. In my mother language most people now the proper punctuation, the rules are clear and thus the common rule is, in literature, it's what sounds right, brings your meaning out the most.

BTW, Sierra Nevada, what is your first language? And besides Ishiguro & Calvino, who are some of your favorite authors?

TodHackett
03-02-2006, 12:30 PM
Would you tell me what you think about these types of literature and means that I promote here?

SN--

I'm not sure what you are asking. Please clarify!

blp
03-02-2006, 02:10 PM
To clarify - I'm not saying anything needs to go completely, just that there are bits where neatening it up could improve the sense. But what you say brings to mind my favourite quote on writing, which is either Samuel or Ben Johnson, probably the latter: 'Young writers should go through their work and cross out all the good bits'.

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm still writing, just not a novel. I think about going back to the novel, but there was something I really disliked about it. I'll post the film script so you can have a look if you like. It's done - I just finished shooting - so if you make any brilliant criticisms I'll just have to live with 'em.

TodHackett
03-02-2006, 02:20 PM
blp--

It's all becoming clear to me now-- your giving up on the novel, the fact that you need "a voice" for your charaters, the fact that all you recommend to me are obscure movies with "similar imagery" to my chapters, and now the screenplay.

Nice try, but I've caught you. I'm on to your little ruse, my friend... you're not an aspiring writer at all, but an aspiring filmmaker.

And you thought you could get away with it...

So, now that we know where your passion really lies-- tell me about your films!

blp
03-02-2006, 04:53 PM
But I did. I posted one.

You're entirely right of course. I only started writing seriously to try to put together films. I only started a novel because it was too difficult to get a film together at that point. And even before I heard it, I agreed with Buñuel's dictum: 'To make a good film you need three things: a good script, a good script and a good script' - something that doesn't seem to have occurred to a lot of those bozos making shorts out there.

But you're also wrong because I've always written and cared about writing really and when I stopped the novel - I came back to say something about this whether you'd replied or not - I didn't stop because it wasn't a film but because I was writing it in a totally boring way: plan plot, do characterisations, work out some twists etc. then trudge through the writing of it, polishing fussily all the way. Ugh. I'm telling you, I got so bored. Then I was told about mindmapping and similar and just started to take a lot of notes and realised this could allow me to deal with subjects that actually interested me and string things together in odd ways and, often, generate pieces of writing that gave me enormous satisfaction with surprising ease. And what I wanted to say, lest you think I'm offering patronising writing tips, is that what interested me about the description of the way you worked was something similar and that's why I asked you to post some work. And I do think it's interesting despite my initial reservations - especially trying to deal with Fantasy material without being genre fantasy and using a clunky sounding computer game as a basis for it. I mean, it's impossible to tell what it is from what you've posted, but the way you talk about it, it sounds really interesting.

Sierra Nevada
03-07-2006, 06:38 AM
:goof: nothing much