What is Prayer?

[Scheherazade]

What is a prayer? What purposes does it serve to (if any)? Why do you (not) pray? What good (if any) does it make?




Disclaimer: These questions are not directed at followers of one particular belief but in general to find out why and how people (do not) pray.

Please do not turn it into a 'which religion is superior?' debate!

[Riesa]

That's an interesting question. I'm not religious; but I do believe in prayer. Is that strange?
For me, prayer is just a putting into words deep desires, hurts or pains, and a wish for direction. I guess I'm praying to my inner self. Funny thing, if I'm actually driven enough to 'pray' this way, my life usually does change in a positive way. Is it a miracle? Or angels watching out for me? To me, it's just the mysterious power of the human mind.
I can't wait to see what everyone else says about this.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

William found that he now thought of prayer as a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms.

Just about sums up my view.

[Green Lady]

Well, the dictionary says this:

a. A reverent petition made to God, a god, or another object of worship.

b. The act of making a reverent petition to God, a god, or another object of worship.

c. An act of communion with God, a god, or another object of worship, such as in devotion, confession, praise, or thanksgiving

I suppose that's perhaps what the purpose of prayer is for any religion that prays. Some religions meditate too, which is in a way very much like prayer. Some religions, like mine, see prayer as the time for us to speak to God/gods/higher-being. Scientists have researched prayer, noticing that certain parts of the brain are active during prayer that are usually dormant when awake. I'm not sure of the specifics, hope I didn't say anything wrong.

So, you could be communicating with a higher being, or for those that don't believe in that you could be consulting with your subconcious or inner-self. Take your pick, I wont' debate that.

[Ancestor]

I pray for healing of myself and for others whom I know also do not know. I only ask for guidance and healing for me asking anything else is not appropriate for me to ask for. That is my personal belief though and I do believe in the power of prayer.

[Whifflingpin]

It might be proper to distinguish between private prayer and public prayer. Prayer in public has as much to do with establishing and maintaining social groups as about communion with God. It may or may not also have the same causes and effects as private prayer.

"What is a prayer?"
I think private prayer is about the expression of feelings, of the kind that we express to other people, in situations where we have those feelings but do not have other appropriate people.

OK - that sounds daft -

example 1 - if you see a bit of fine craftsmanship, you may be filled with admiration and, were she present you would praise the craftswoman; if you see a fine tree, you still have the same feeling of admiration, but there is no craftsman - nonetheless, you may still utter (or think) words of praise.

example 2 - if you are given a present, you may feel thankful, and you may say thanks to the donor; often enough, you may feel thankful for something, but there is no human donor - nonetheless, you may utter or think words of thanks.

example 3 - sometimes you cannot manage on your own, so you ask for help from a person; other times, you may have the same feeling of need, but there is no person to ask - you may, at these times, still utter or think words of pleading.

example 4 - if you hurt someone you may feel guilt or sorrow, and may say that you are sorry; but sometimes you have the feeling of guilt when there is no individual that you have harmed - you may still, in this situation, express words or thoughts of sorrow and apology.

So, prayer is expression of feelings of, for example, praise or thankfulness or pleading or guilt when there is no human person to be praised, thanked or asked or apologised to.

"Why do you (not) pray?"
Putting feelings into words is a normal human activity. We express feelings through words. When we feel a need to say "I'm sorry" or "Well done!" or "Thanks!" or "Help!" we say it. When there is no human to say it to, those who believe in God say it to God. Those who don't believe in God still say it. It is as natural to us as eating.

[XXdarkclarityXX]

Prayer, in my opinion, is a concerted effort to communicate one's feelings, wishes, and desires to a higher power in the hope of a favorable result. I think prayer, no matter who it is to or what it is regarding, can be beneficial when sincerely and correctly executed. I myself choose not to believe in prayer because I feel it is a self-coaxing mechanism which is many times used to take away responsibility from individual actions. "I prayed to God that I would do well on this test, so I'll be fine even though I didn't study." So, what happens when you get your grade back and get a 60? You say, "God, you let me down. I prayed, right? You didn't help me out!" Well, that's actually your problem to prepare, not some higher power's obligation. Of course, it's God's fault you failed, not you...Does everyone see my point here? Not all prayer is used in the manner that I have just described it, but it is abused enough so that I believe it is corrupted beyond repair.

[Ancestor]

Hello xxxdarkclarityxxx your example there although not how I would use prayer for showed me that God did not let that person down but the person let themselves down. Praying to pass a test is not what one should do but study as you well know. I have found prayers are answered but the answer is not always what we expect the answer to be. I pray for healing and if the healing is given then I am happy but if it is not then I have to accept that. Because it may be the person's time to go and that may sound lame but I truly believe we each are given what was meant to be given. My path changes for one second to the next because a new element is entered onto my path. I may not be here tomorrow or I may be here for another 50 years who knows but living the journey is well worth it. When I pray for healing of others in hope they may have a less painful life. Positive thoughts cannot do any harm in my opinion.

[Theshizznigg]

Prayer in any forms is the basic human need to fill the spiritual gap inside of a persons heart. To achieve closeness to God/Gods, and to pour out their earthly problems, and experiences to him/them, and to feel a oneness with him that they have not felt since their intial abscences from him/them.

In essence it is a form to touch the creator/creators of the universe, when we need comforting/advice, and an opening to pour out all of our successes.

What it means to Christians?
Christians accept God as creator, and Christ as saviour. Thus in times of need, sorrow, pain, joy, and peace. Christians lift their spirits up to God/Christ so that Christians may divise methods, or knowledge of how to solve there earthly problems, and commmunicate their joy to the creator of whom they have brought themselves close to through faith.

Does prayer work?
Not for selfish, or humanistic reasons. It does not do to pray, "God I want billions of dollars, all for myself." That is not how prayer works. Prayer works through the unselfish asking of things, or the lifting up of others.
That way Christians fundamentally follow the teachings of Christ because their minds are always on the wealthfare of not just themselves, but those around them.
Prayer for me has always worked. God/Christ has always given me the things I've asked for, even if it took a while, and wasn't what I expected it to be.
Prayer isn't constant gratification, but if one prays to God constantly and methodically, never letting the object of the prayer leave their mind, that prayer is almost always answered.

As for those that will say, what about people who die when prayed for why didn't God save them?
A man is not born a moment before he is born, nor does one die a moment before they should.
If a Christian dies, then who amongst the church should concern themselves with it? There death is but a re-unification with God.
If anyone in any other religion dies, should they not be pleased that the person was chosen at that time for God/ The Gods will?

And for those outside the Church/religion who claim atheism and deny the existence of God.
What rights to they have to question Gods removal of a life, if they don't acknowledge Gods existence?
To say, "why does God let people die," then go "I don't believe in God," is nothing more than pure Hypocrisy, and shows that person to be a fool.

As for those true atheist who do not believe in Gods existance, than why should they worry about this question? Since there is no god in their minds, then prayer is a impossibility, and thus that person was meant to die regardless of any religious intervention.

Thanks have a wonderful day.
Shizz. :nod:

[kilted exile]

I used to pray when I was really young, but I began to get the feeling that I was just talking to myself. In fact I can remember the exact point in my life that I started to lose belief in a higher power, I was 12 and my best friend died of Pneumonia.
Around then I came to a conclusion: either
a) Stuff just happens, there is no greater force controlling things.
or
b) There is a God but He does things the way he intends to and all the praying in the world wont change that.

I've gone another 12 years and pretty much settled on the belief that a) is correct.

And Shizz, you can think me a fool for feeling that if you like. Your opinion of me really is insignificant.

[XXdarkclarityXX]

I used to pray when I was really young, but I began to get the feeling that I was just talking to myself. In fact I can remember the exact point in my life that I started to lose belief in a higher power, I was 12 and my best friend died of Pneumonia.
Around then I came to a conclusion: either
a) Stuff just happens, there is no greater force controlling things.
or
b) There is a God but He does things the way he intends to and all the praying in the world wont change that.

I've gone another 12 years and pretty much settled on the belief that a) is correct.

And Shizz, you can think me a fool for feeling that if you like. Your opinion of me really is insignificant.

Binngoooo!!!! ;)

[Scheherazade]

And for those outside the Church who claim atheism and deny the existence of God.
What rights to they have to question Gods removal of a life, if they don't acknowledge Gods existence. To say, why does God let people die, then go I don't believe in God is nothing more than pure Hypocrisy, and shows that person to be a fool.
As for those true atheist who do not believe in Gods existance, than why should they worry about this question? Since their is no god in their minds, then prayer is a impossibility, and thus that person was meant to die regardless of any religious intervention.
Theshizznigg,

To begin with, there are religions other than Christianity and there are many forms of prayers. There are many people who consider their own meditations 'prayers' even though they do not believe in any one particular religion.

I think the questions regarding 'God's removal of a life' is 'Why does God (if there is one) favour one prayer over another (if prayers work)?' to be accurate.

As a final note, please do not resort to personal attacks and name calling during discussions. If you don't like certain member's posts and/or debates, feel free to ignore them.

[Theshizznigg]

Theshizznigg,

To begin with, there are religions other than Christianity and there are many forms of prayers. There are many people who consider their own meditations 'prayers' even though they do not believe in any one particular religion.

SHG
Good for them, I was refering to prayer applicable to Christianity, not Zionism, Atheism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Occults, Meditationism, Humanism, etc. I didn't leave these religions out, but only lightly touched on the subject since I don't know much about certain religions religious beliefs or values.

I think the questions regarding 'God's removal of a life' is 'Why does God (if there is one) favour one prayer over another (if prayers work)?' to be accurate.

SHG
I do not know the reason why God picks one over the other, or why God favours certain people. That is a question only God his self could answer.

As a final note, please do not resort to personal attacks and name calling during discussions. If you don't like certain member's posts and/or debates, feel free to ignore them.

SHG
I realize that there are other religions outside of Christianity, hence I wrote that those who are of religions should not feel grief when a loved one dies, because it was the will of God/ the gods that that person should join them.
I know the many forms of human religion, both occultic and non and have often said that I respect these religions, I have never denied that there are any other religions, I have merely alway answered my questions from a CHRISTIAN perspecting, that is to say because I am a Christian and those are the religous values/beliefs we are taught.

Aside from that I appreciate your view. And it is not name calling to point out that an Athiest who believes in the existence of God is not a true Athiest, its is factual truth, since Atheism is the religion of no god.

"I am not infallible, only God is infallible since nothing is beyond his understanding."
Shizz

[Xamonas Chegwe]

And for those outside the Church who claim atheism and deny the existence of God.
What rights to they have to question Gods removal of a life, if they don't acknowledge Gods existence. To say, why does God let people die, then go I don't believe in God is nothing more than pure Hypocrisy, and shows that person to be a fool.

Those people are utilising a logical technique known as reductio ad absurdum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum) to argue their case. It is a valid mode of argument (unlike ranting, which some seem to prefer). Please follow the link, it may enable you to improve your debating style.

[Green Lady]

I think prayer, no matter who it is to or what it is regarding, can be beneficial when sincerely and correctly executed. I myself choose not to believe in prayer because I feel it is a self-coaxing mechanism which is many times used to take away responsibility from individual actions. "I prayed to God that I would do well on this test, so I'll be fine even though I didn't study." So, what happens when you get your grade back and get a 60? You say, "God, you let me down. I prayed, right? You didn't help me out!" Well, that's actually your problem to prepare, not some higher power's obligation. Of course, it's God's fault you failed, not you...Does everyone see my point here? Not all prayer is used in the manner that I have just described it, but it is abused enough so that I believe it is corrupted beyond repair.

When someone prays and expects God to do all the work, that's not how things should be done and it wouldn't really qualify as a real prayer. I've always been taught, you got to meet God half-way. If you want to do well on that test, study for cryin' out loud! You can pray that you will be able to remember everything you've studied but God can't give you the answers to the test.

[Ranoo]

hi all,
thanks Scheherazade for this topic ,it's great idea to know about the way people see praying


As a Muslim prayer has two meanings to me ;

1- The physical ,verbal and spiritual actions that I perform every day to communicate with Allah, and we use the word Salat to refer to it .



"The Islamic prayers are fixed at the same "time" period each day -- before dawn, noon, afternoon, sunset, and evening. Because of the rotation of the earth, the revolution of the earth around the sun, the tilt of the earth, the various latitudes of the earth's locations, daylight savings time, etc. -- the "times" (according to the clock) for these prayers do change from day to day and depend on location. Islamic prayer times were traditionally set according to the movement of the sun, not of the clock, and this is how they continue to be observed."
http://islam.about.com/od/prayer/f/prayer_times.htm

2-The verbal communication (invocation or supplication) between me and Allah when asking Him to forgive me or to give me and other people something ,and we use the word Du'a for this kind of praying

[daddysfiddler]

When someone prays and expects God to do all the work, that's not how things should be done and it wouldn't really qualify as a real prayer. I've always been taught, you got to meet God half-way. If you want to do well on that test, study for cryin' out loud! You can pray that you will be able to remember everything you've studied but God can't give you the answers to the test.


I totally agree with you. When I'm getting ready for a test, I study really hard, and then I ask God to keep me focused on the test and to remember all that I have studied. Asking God to do all the work for you is never going to get you anywhere. God will show you the way, but you have to do the work. <><

[Fontainhas]

A prayer can mean about everything youwant it to be. For some, it is a way of meditation, others, a way of communicating more directly totheir God(s).
It all depens on the person you're dealing with.

[Jewels83]

I think prayer is a reflection of the sincerity you have towards whoever you worship; if you ask for something (be it for yourself or any one/thing else) sincerely and with wholesome almost flawless faith in whom you're praying for, then by all means, you'll get it in the "right time". its all a matter of faith.

ANd i don't really think that "stuff just happen" as some1 mentioned. I beleive that there is a reason for everything and that the fact that we might not know it (yet or never) doesn't necessarily proove that there is no reason for things happening. I think we are quite limited when it comes to understanding the possibiliy of the existence of a higher power in the first place (Its taugh i'm sure), and the fact that things happen that hurt us sometimes (the death of a loved one for instance) amplifies our beleif in the abcense of a God whereas such incidences can paradoxically be a proof for His existence (coz some1/something caused the death of our loved one, something put an end to their functioning). You might call it "nature" you might call it "Energy dissipation", but something triggered this, something quite powerful (especially when perfectly healthy ppl die from heart strokes, sometimes for absolutely NO reason). It's debatable of course.

Back to the tpoic!! I also think that "listening to" or "getting to know" the God you beleive in is another form of praying. That could hhappen through reading the Koran, Bible whatever other Holy scriptures and sometimes by listening to the wind and watching the different shapes clouds make.

[Ancestor]

Got a question here that may sound stupid but here goes anyway. What do most people pray for? I do not pray for wealth or fame but for healing only and nothing else. I am mainly curious to what people pray for.

[daddysfiddler]

Most of the times I just pray for guidance in the decisions that I am making. I also pray for my friends and the people around me. I try not to pray for selfish desires, but turn my prayers outward for the people around me. <><

[Scheherazade]

When I was a child and went (was dragged) to church, they always used to pray for good weather for outdoor church events. When the weather was fine, they gave thanks that their prayers were answered; when it rained, they said that others must have needed it to rain more than they needed it to be fine, and gave thanks for that.

Am I cynical to feel that that sounds like dreadful rationalisation?Sorry to drag this from from another thread but I thought it might be a better idea to carry on the discussion on prayer here.

I agree with XC that there is a lot of 'rationalisation' going on when it comes to prayers... If things do not turn out the way we expect them to be, we are urged to think that there is a reason which is beyond us for it being so... Something we cannot understand and appreciate with our feeble minds... in the greater scheme of things... 'God works in mysterious ways.' And we don't want to attribute anything negative to God. In my native language, there is a saying which might roughly translate: 'If it turns out good, it is God's doing. If it turns out bad, it is man's doing'.

However, I am wondering... assuming you believe in God and pray... Say if a beloved one is terribly ill and you pray, are you not actually asking God to fix the troubles he himself sent upon us in the first place? Is it because you haven't been good boys/girls God sent you all these troubles?

[Whifflingpin]

"Say if a beloved one is terribly ill and you pray, are you not actually asking God to fix the troubles he himself sent upon us in the first place? Is it because you haven't been good boys/girls God sent you all these troubles?"

If only it worked like that - the evil being obviously punished, and the good rewarded immediately - but it doesn't. The innocent in this world suffer more than the guilty, it seems, so troubles might almost be seen as evidence of virtue, not wrongding.

"The rain it raineth every day, upon the just anf unjust fellah,
But more upon the just, because the unjust hath the just's umbrella."

.

[Amra]

Interesting topic. I think that many people confuse what prayer is, and what we can expect from it. Religious people are not saved from the troubles of the world because they believe, and because they are on the right path. That is simply not the case. The only difference in the life of a believer and those who don't believe is that a believer tries to make sense of the things that happen to him, and believes that they have a specific purpose. In Islam, there is a hadith that says (I paraphrase) that the situation with a believer is a wonder, because if something good happens to him, he thanks God for it, and if something bad befalls him, he is patient, and gets rewarded for the patience. This means that the only difference between us is how we look at the things that happen to us; wheter or not we become frustrated, depressed, mad, or we thank God for them and stay patient, trusting God to be just and reward us for that in one way or the other. Also, we do believe that bad things happen to us because of our sins, and because we are being tested. Everyone can claim to be a believer with his words, but it is the tests that seperate the true believers from those who pretend. In the holy Qur'an, Allah s.v.t says:

214. Or do ye think that ye shall enter the Garden (of bliss) without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? they encountered suffering and adversity, and were so shaken in spirit that even the Messenger and those of faith who were with him cried: "When (will come) the help of Allah." Ah! Verily, the help of Allah is (always) near. (2-214)

155. Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere,(2-155)

2. Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, "We believe", and that they will not be tested?

3. We did test those before them, and Allah will certainly know those who are true from those who are false. (Surah 29, 2-3)


Patience is a very important concept in Islam, and it is said that only those who are patient will enter paradise. We don't usually pray to be spared a test, or to live a life without obstacles and problems, but we pray to God to give us strengh when those come, and perseverance to conquer them.

Therefore, hardships and obstacles will come to everyone, but how we deal with them is what seperates those who believe and those who don't.

[rachel]

since my baby sister is dying and at this writing may in fact have actually died, I will try ,being very emotional right now, to answer.
When we pray the Lord' prayer, those who do and we say "Thy will be done" we as fragile mortals are not in effect giving God permission to have his will done, we are simply acknowledging that He does, with or without us.
He says very clearly that the whole earth is groaning under the consequence of sin, man's inhumanity to man etc. He also says "time and unforseen occurances befall us all"
Tolkien and G.K. Chesterton always asserted that but for the freedom God gives us to live as we see fit and take the consequences life has no joy or purpose.
So we have freedom to eat wrong, be cruel, etc and others and ourselves suffer for it but usually God gets hated for it. On the other hand because the world is fallen and under the consequences of it everything is affected and many thru no fault of their own get sick and die. Only God himself knows the length of days we will have.
Prayer is a requirement of those who walk with God. Just as in any family it will totally deteriorate without serious interchange of love and dialogue. Loving interaction is a requirement for a human family to survive and thrive.
So prayer is a must, it is our acknowledging Him and walking humbly with Him. It is NOT a mantra or magic that says"well I shall live how I want and do as I please but if something should go wrong I will close my eyes, respectfully say thus and so and voila my loved one is healed or the marriage is saved. etc.
I am a lowly person who is only learning to walk with God and get to know him , which means I talk to Him, I believe He hears and speaks to my heart in a way for me that is understandable, just as I speak to babies and little ones in slightly different ways they can understand. We are to give thanks simply because, if we have gotten to know him in our limited capacity He 'is' and as having given us life and the beautiful earth to dwell upon He is worthy. We thank one another for a gift, it is a fitting thing. We don't hopefully thank another for a gift so we can prevail upon that thanks to get what we want in the future. It is rude.
So our praying is an acknowledging that God is sovereign, that we respect that and we talk to him and enjoy him. If I take a petition and give it to someone who can then in turn hand it to our Queen, and if having read it she feels my request really isn't the right thing to grant, that does not make her less my queen and I won't hate her for it. I am not sovereign and do not know what she knows.The test of faith therefore really becomes."because my request was not granted, do I turn away from my God and hate him and call him names and deny his existance or do I , having come to know Him and believing in MY heart believe he is worthy to stay my God, continue on walking with him. I choose to do this.
Now there are some circumstances that God does, for His own eternal reasons, intervene and put it upon someone's heart(that someone is really listening, not pretending God said so) to pray for a person's recovery. That has happened many times in my life and I pray and they recover. Miraculously even doctors have said.
That happened for Hasia and for Travis. So I fell upon my face in prayer for my baby sister and then two nights ago I heard in my heart very strongly to pray for her comfort and peace and say goodbye. I was devestated but because I ,by my own choice have agreed to trust God's sovereignty I will continue to trust Him and walk with him. Just as I hope when I say no to my children and they are crushed and feel betrayed they won't stop loving me. And I will continue to give thanks because I deem Him worthy-just because He is God. no other reason.

[Scheherazade]

If only it worked like that - the evil being obviously punished, and the good rewarded immediately - but it doesn't. The innocent in this world suffer more than the guilty, it seems, so troubles might almost be seen as evidence of virtue, not wrongding..Having seen this, isn't a believer bothered, frustrated?

I guess this connects with Amra's 'patience' concept:
Patience is a very important concept in Islam, and it is said that only those who are patient will enter paradise. We don't usually pray to be spared a test, or to live a life without obstacles and problems, but we pray to God to give us strengh when those come, and perseverance to conquer them. but it still sounds rather unfair to me that one should ask for strength from a God who himself sends the problems to humans in the first place... Reminds me of a crying toddler who expects a cuddle to be comforted and assured from the mother who has just smacked him.
The only difference in the life of a believer and those who don't believe is that a believer tries to make sense of the things that happen to him, and believes that they have a specific purpose. Again, this brings up the rationalisation. When we cannot explain (or maybe when we don't want to believe that our God could do such a thing), we look for solace by trying to persuade ourselves that God has a greater plan unbeknown to us.

Rachel,

I am very sorry to hear about your sister and I admire your strength; facing such tragedy, you don't seem fazed much and manage to hold it together. My heart and deepest thoughts go out to you and your sister's family.
We thank one another for a gift, it is a fitting thing. We don't hopefully thank another for a gift so we can prevail upon that thanks to get what we want in the future. It is rude.I guess we only thank for the pleasant gifts we receive. If someone leaves week old used diapers at your door step, 'thank you' would probably be one of the last expressions coming to your mind.
I take a petition and give it to someone who can then in turn hand it to our Queen, and if having read it she feels my request really isn't the right thing to grant, that does not make her less my queen and I won't hate her for it. I am not sovereign and do not know what she knows.We all know what happens to sovereigns who neglect their folks though... 'Let them eat cake if they can't find bread?'
."because my request was not granted, do I turn away from my God and hate him and call him names and deny his existance or do I , having come to know Him and believing in MY heart believe he is worthy to stay my God, continue on walking with him. Not because your wishes are not granted but because you are let down by being thrown into harsh tests and circumstances which you cannot fight with your human strength... such as illness, disasters. I would like to remind that in most cases it is God himself who sends these hardships which we ask cure for.
Now there are some circumstances that God does, for His own eternal reasons, intervene and put it upon someone's heart(that someone is really listening, not pretending God said so) to pray for a person's recovery. That has happened many times in my life and I pray and they recover.You don't think they would have recovered if you hadn't prayed at those incidents? Sound like simple coincidences to me. If the prayer's outcome is not as desired, people tend to say it is God's will and that God has plans... That he moves in mysterious ways.

I think it takes a lot of faith to pray and let the God be the better judge of things in one's life.

[Whifflingpin]

"I would like to remind that in most cases it is God himself who sends himself these hardships which we ask cure for."

I do not think that that is a necessary belief, even for those who believe in God.

[Scheherazade]

"I would like to remind that in most cases it is God himself who sends himself these hardships which we ask cure for."

I do not think that that is a necessary belief, even for those who believe in God.If I have cancer or an earthquake happens or a volcano erupts, you wouldn't consider these God's doings? Like things sent to 'test' us?

[XXdarkclarityXX]

Scheherazade,

Things cannot happen just because they happen? Why must we attribute occurrences to some sort of cause or origin? The reason for having cancer may be a test, an earthquake may be God's doing....or perhaps the case is neither and things just happen because they do. Plates shift and disease strikes...these things just are.

[Scheherazade]

Scheherazade,

Things cannot happen just because they happen? Why must we attribute occurrences to some sort of cause or origin? The reason for having cancer may be a test, an earthquake may be God's doing....or perhaps the case is neither and things just happen because they do. Plates shift and disease strikes...these things just are.DarkClarity,

I would readily agree with you that things just happen however if we assume that there is a God and that we are all his creations, then we would also have to assume that those things are given by him as well... part of his grand scheme of things.

[Whifflingpin]

"If I have cancer or an earthquake happens or a volcano erupts, you wouldn't consider these God's doings? Like things sent to 'test' us?"

I do not think that God send things to test us. (Substitute "believe" for "think," because this is all speculation) God is the creator and sustainer and sends only good things.

There are other explanations for the bad things.
For instance, some argue that they are only bad in our view, but tend to ultimate good. I think this may be true in some cases, like death, for example - we often think that death is a bad thing, but it may be seen as a necessary thing, and even a gateway to something greater than the life that we know. However, in general, I do not think the argument holds - suffering and pain do not tend to the long term good, or if they do that is not an excuse for inflicting them.

Some argue that evil things are the result of mankind's faulty exercise of free will. This seems to me too narrow a view. Suffering happens without being caused by humans, and our non-human fellow inhabitants of the world suffer too.

I have not found a satisfactory explanation of why an all-powerful creator might allow the innocent to suffer through natural causes, so I assume that the loving creator has an adversary that, within the universe that we experience, at least, appears to be very powerful. Whether as powerful, or nearly as powerful as God is speculation. I am an optimist, so I think that evil is not as powerful as good, but it certainly has a separate source (at least as far as we can tell in this world.)

[Pendragon]

Just a quick comment here. What is prayer? A conversation between the believer and whatever he or she believes in. No one has to tell me about difficulty. But it is in dealing with people, not God. When my Bi-Polar went off and I crashed and burned, yes, I prayed. I found ease for my illness in medication and wise counseling, and even Oriental methods of meditation combined with prayers. It was people, church people, who could not accept my illness, who called it Demonic Possession and Excomunicated me from the churches. Did I then blame God? Why? Wasn't I getting treatment that was allowing me some normalcy of life? Hadn't I worked long and hard enough to be able to draw a fair pension from my workplace as well as my disability when the Doctors told me I could not ever hope to return to work? People couldn't accept things, and they were the problem, not God. Many of the problems that are blamed on God or even on the Devil are human made and human caused. I forge ahead, continue with my Ministry (although now I must accept whomsoever comes in off the street), and continue to pray. One question that might be asked is "Couldn't God just heal you?" I believe so. But then I wouldn't be who I am. I would be a stuck-up person, self-rightious, and not the one who can say to others "I have walked in your shoes. I have questioned the existence of God. I know the depths of depression. I know what it's like to loose everthing. Would you like to talk?" I do not try to force anything down anyone's throat as if I were better than them. I've been there. Have a nice day, my friends. :) :nod:

[rachel]

love you dear Pen. thankyou

[Scheherazade]

I have not found a satisfactory explanation of why an all-powerful creator might allow the innocent to suffer through natural causes, so I assume that the loving creator has an adversary that, within the universe that we experience, at least, appears to be very powerful. That is one of my greatest reservations when it comes to believing and/or submitting whole heartedly to a divine being. Why a loving creator would do that to his own creations and do I want to submit to a God who does all these (whatever his reasons might be)... I am afraid the adversary argument does not satisfy me at the moment. I am having trouble coming to terms with one divine being and now two??? ;)

Pen, I am not sure how to respond because you have given your own circumstances as an example and I don't want to look like I am targeting you personally; please don't take it that way :)

I understand and hear you when you say it is the people's reactions leave much to be desired. I am more and more inclined to think that we are inherently bad. However, people's reaction came only after the condition started. Do you ever wonder what God's grand plan was when he chose you to have such condition? Why you? Why this condition? Why suffering? Why put his own creations in situations for which they will have to pray and ask for his guidance and remedy?

[Whifflingpin]

"I am having trouble coming to terms with one divine being and now two???"
Fair enough, it's a primitive idea anyway, and some would see it as a cop-out from resolving the problem of reconciling evil with a benevolent God.

"Why put his own creations in situations for which they will have to pray and ask for his guidance and remedy?"
The Christian idea of a God that suffers with you might be a satisfactory answer - it does not really explain why evil exists, but it means at least that God is not doing something nasty to you, He is alongside sharing the pain with you.

.

[Pendragon]

Pen, I am not sure how to respond because you have given your own circumstances as an example and I don't want to look like I am targeting you personally; please don't take it that way :)

I understand and hear you when you say it is the people's reactions leave much to be desired. I am more and more inclined to think that we are inherently bad. However, people's reaction came only after the condition started. Do you ever wonder what God's grand plan was when he chose you to have such condition? Why you? Why this condition? Why suffering? Why put his own creations in situations for which they will have to pray and ask for his guidance and remedy?Of course, I question. I always question everything. How could I not? But as I say, I am a better person for all that I've been through. I used to be fairly uptight and self-righteous, ready to condemn the whole world if they disagreed with me. Not anymore. I see a different way now, and can still hold onto my faith. But I am richer far in the diversity of people I now talk to and have come to respect.

And you know, I am not sure that the problem wasn't there all along, I was just blinded too it as long as things were going my way. You don't notice things are so bad when you yourself are part of the problem. When the problem started, people just showed their colors, as a tree does in the fall. And I showed mine, and you know something--I was different! :nod:

[Nightshade]

Hummm. well My idea of prayer is more than having a conversation with GOd. When I was little I used to have long drawn out "conversations " with GOd ( cometo think of it I still do on occasion it helps me get my ideas out.BUt prayng is different for me as a muslim praying i s more I doont know a state of mind? The outward expression of devotion? somthing like that :D
I guess it depends if your talking about Salah or Do'ah.

Also I suppose it deepends on your view of life. Me, I consider it a series of challenges test and other things, I guess thatt type of thinking works especially for me because otherwise , what would be the point to being alive?
:D

[rhei_27]

When I'm getting ready for a test, I study really hard, and then I ask God to keep me focused on the test and to remember all that I have studied. Asking God to do all the work for you is never going to get you anywhere. God will show you the way, but you have to do the work. <><


I agree with daddysfiddler. As they say it takes two to tango. You must not only rely on God to do all the work but you must also persevere and do your part.

[Pendragon]

I agree with daddysfiddler. As they say it takes two to tango. You must not only rely on God to do all the work but you must also persevere and do your part. And I will be the third to your second, you must not sit around and expect God to do everything for you. Take a step yourself, and pray for guidence and help, not "Hey, do this for me." It reminds me of the story of the man in the flood who refused to get into two boats and a rescue helicopter because he said God would take care of him. When he drowned, and arrived at the gate complaining, he was told "Who do you think sent the two boats and the helicoptor?"

The problem people have with prayer is that they have a pre-concieved answer in mind. If they don't get that answer, then they dismiss prayer entirely. But compare it to a child asking a parent for something. The child has to learn that "No!" is an answer. It's just not the one they want. Prayer is sometimes the same...

[Nightshade]

Exactly :nod:. If you tottally rely on god to do everything for theres hardly any point to you exsisting at all is there. (you being general human race including me:D)

[Theshizznigg]

The reasons for prayer are thus.

Humans were created by God, God is close to his creation.
In the back of the human mind, we all have imprinted urges or memories, pertaining to generations before us, and our spiritual urges, IE the need to communicate with God stems from our relation to Adam and his relationship with God.
Thus Prayer is a Spiritual Creation, trying to attain closeness to its creator.

Does it work?

Well, its not how long the prayer is, but what you do with it. :brow:

As for communication with God, its a great way to relieve stress, feel closer to God, and to feel stronger in your faith.
I do not believe that meditation cannot be combined with Prayers, for an overall sense of well being, and I'm a big believer in Haragei as a force of mental concentration.

And there you have another set of thoughts on Prayer.

Enjoy Shizz
;)