1984 vs. Plato's Republic?

[BMW-Guy]

I've just finished reading "1984" and I couldn't help but notice several stark similarities in Plato's Republic.

I'm wondering if anyone else here noticed the same thing (i.e. The government in both books clains to "serve the whole people", but ends up exsisting for it's own sake)?

[fayefaye]

haven't read it. oops i just stopped by to whine about how much i wish i had a bmw cry a nice silver convertible, leather interior... I fantasise bout it whilst driving.... sorry; that's pretty off-topic.

[BMW-Guy]

haven't read it. :oops: i just stopped by to whine about how much i wish i had a bmw :( a nice silver convertible, leather interior... I fantasise bout it whilst driving.... sorry; that's pretty off-topic.

To be honest, I'm a gadget-loving 15 year old who has an extreme taste for Philosophy & literature. I don't own a BMW, but I've driven Them. :D

[fayefaye]

lol. yeah, well, a friend of a friend of mine learnt to drive in a mercedes. if i ever track that guy down... u've driven one? ha! that's cool. like, what's the driving age where u are?

[BMW-Guy]

lol. yeah, well, a friend of a friend of mine learnt to drive in a mercedes. if i ever track that guy down... u've driven one? ha! that's cool. like, what's the driving age where u are?

I live in Michigan. Here, you are allowed to take driver's ed. at 14 years & nine months. Upon completing it successfull, you are allowec to drive with a parent/lisenced friend 21 years or older.

[BMW-Guy]

By the way, would you mind explaining your quote to me?

[fayefaye]

YOU'RE KIDDING. here (australia) you have to be 16 to take driver's ed. i would have loved to be able to drive at 14. only in america. ( I'm a shocking driver though. i rest my foot on the accelerator! plus, i never step on the brake before entering a corner, so I'm always driving on the wrong side of a road for a while. an accident waiting to happen.

the quote? 'sometimes you wake up. sometimes the fall kills you. and sometimes, when you fall, you fly.' it's just a quote i like. i haven't actually read the book it comes from oops i think it's like, sometimes you become dissillusioned, and **** happens. but sometimes when **** happens it turns out well, y'know? sometimes if you put yourself out there it works out. btw, i really like philosophy too. maybe we'll have some interesting conversation.

[fayefaye]

wow. i didn't know they censured posts. how come abdo can get away with it and i can't? or did i bleap myself and i just can't remember... my memory's really bad. either way i came up with a better explanation of the quote.

it's sort of.. sometimes life just comes at you. comes at you in a way that can be very real, upsetting, cause you to die inside. sometimes the really bad things in life can kill you. but sometimes you can triumph over them. you can fly.

[Isagel]

It´s from a very good comic book. (One of my many favorites) It´s about what happens in dreams when you fall. But , the story is about other things as well - and I think your interpretation is correct. Won´t spoil the story for you by telling more...Now go get it! Buy the comic!


it's sort of.. sometimes life just comes at you. comes at you in a way that can be very real, upsetting, cause you to die inside. sometimes the really bad things in life can kill you. but sometimes you can triumph over them. you can fly.

[Jay]

You're both lucky (Faye and BMW-Guy). To get a driving licence here you have to be 18... and pass the tests :D

[Sindhu]

Well, it can't get worse than my case- I FAILED the test- to put it more clearly the instructor was sticking straws in his hair! Now if I can brace myself to take the test again- and find someone with nerves of steel to coach me! ;)
How did we get here from Plato's republic?
Actually interesting question comparing 19647the Republic, BMW-Guy, I'll try to reply over theweekend- ifI gettime off from packing, that is! :D

[Sindhu]

it's sort of.. sometimes life just comes at you. comes at you in a way that can be very real, upsetting, cause you to die inside. sometimes the really bad things in life can kill you. but sometimes you can triumph over them. you can fly.
There's a lovely quote which I think would be apropriate here
"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom."
Anais Nin

[fayefaye]

yeh, that's good. i might make that my next sig ) put in more sigs from stuff i haven't actually read! either way, i don't actually have my licence yet. it's a long, enduring process. i have to pass a test, than prove i've driven for a grand total of fifty hours, then pass another test, then drive around without getting into trouble for a year, THEN i'll have my licence. cry right now i'm still a learner. i heard if you nearly kill the driving assessment guy, they give you an instant pass D D it's my best hope!

[Azoic]

I seem to remember when O'brien was in the ministry of love, he got angry :evil: that Winston said the government was for the people. He stated that INGSOC exists to keep the upper class in the upper class and to think that ANY government exists to promote equality for the people is folly.

Oh by the way, I've never read Plato's "Republic", but would be interested in hearing comparison

[BMW-Guy]

Um, I think we have lost sight of the original intentions of this post, but there's no harm that's been done. I actually enjoyed the car-talk. :D

[fayefaye]

'enjoyed' past tense? so we can't talk about driving and cars?

[Azoic]

Ahh well, I had just finished 1984 for the first time, and was feeling the urge to discuss. BMWs are cool too. I drive a Jeep, which are also fun, but for different reasons.

[fayefaye]

u mean one of those 4wd that are criticised for pretty much everything, from funding iraq to road accidents to the inevitable apocolypse coming from the result of pollution and greenhouse gases? )

[Azoic]

I suppose you prefer the VW bug. Which was the Nazi counter to the Jeep. Also, I wasn't aware that German Automakers were supporting the current war (Daimler-Chrysler was bought by Mercades Benz in 1999 or 2000). As far as road accidents, sure they have a high center of balance, and roll easily, but I personally don't know anyone who would get a Jeep for speed. Sports cars, with a very low center of balance, and tires that tend to be treaded only for dry driving actually roll over more than SUVs (or at least they did when I was learning to drive, I suppose we might have more foolish SUV owners in the last 4 years). It basically comes down to average mind set of users of each kind of vehicle.

At any rate car talk hits to close to politics, so how about 1984 vs. The Republic? Or maybe some BMW pics?

[BMW-Guy]

Originally posted by Azoic
At any rate car talk hits to close to politics, so how about 1984 vs. The Republic? Or maybe some BMW pics?

I've done it! I've finally found the connection between philosophy and cars (forget politics!)! It goes something like this:

(No offense to GM-owners)

Plato (If he were alive today) would have shunned ALL General-Motors vehicles, and would have paid homage/respect to the most sacred cars in the world: BMWs.

[fayefaye]

LOL!!!

[BMW-Guy]

I once wrote an 10+ Thesis entitled, Death To The Cadillac (I wrote it in an attempt to convince my grandmother to get rid of her 1996 Cadillac & replace it with something decent like a BMW).

I'll search my computer & see If I can find it. If I do find it I'll post it!:)

[Stanislaw]

The best vehicle ever made, was the Mclauglin, also called a Mclaughlin buick. They were a Canadian car that eventually was re-mearged with the buick company, the Mclaughlin company owner then became head of GM. in their day they were the best of the best luxery car, even the king of england had a few.

[Sloawn]

That 1984 and Plato's Republic have a similarity:I think that a democracy requires everyone who lives in that democracy to live under the provisions of the constitution. If this is true, then 1984 and Plato's Republic are examples of undemocratic government because their governments would not be required to obey the constitution from what you point out.
-William

[Sloawn]

When looking at the first thread by BMW-Guy I see Azoic's quote from Thomas Jefferson as throwing light on why 1984 and Plato's Republic are not constitutional democracies, perhaps.
William

[IWilKikU]

What ever happened to BMW-guy? He was like 14, only he was smart and well read, unlike nicholasburras. I hate when people become unpeople :mad:

[i1984]

i havenot read Plato's pieces yet but i read 1984 several times
it's quite obvious its about totalitarianism. but i remember Plato drives Poets away from his republic and things r nearly the same in 1984 only the forms changed. in 1984, there is a special department manufacturing poets and novels using which only to control them.
and of couse the government tried to unhumanize people
use "newlanguage", room No 101 etc.

[IWilKikU]

Its "Newspeak" isn't it?

[i1984]

ah, yes, hehe, newspeak.
i think Orwell is quite sharp in the relationship between people's thinking and language. Sometimes i agree that language forms thought, isn't it?

[atiguhya padma]

Apparently there are around 6,400 different languages in the world. A load of them are due to be wiped out this century, if stats are anything to go by.

Some people say that a culture dies when its language dies. I think this is said because language structures our thought. Eco talks a lot about this in Kant and the Platypus.

[Cassandra]

Plato is like 1984 in having manufatured peoms. It wasn't that he wanted to drive poets away, he wanted to have very strict rules on literature. At the time most learning was done through literature, mostly Homer. Plato disagreed with many things in Homer i.e. the immorality of the gods as he believe that people copied poems and would thus become corrupt. Therefore he would have done as they did in 1984, changed and manufactured literature solely to suit his aims and control the people.

Both also have a government that pretends to be doing what is best for the people but seems to be doing the opposite. Both also promote strong indoctrination as does Brave New World. This makes it seem like freedom of thought is one of the most important things we have.

[atiguhya padma]

The Laws was far more likable in my opinion. Plato didn't really believe (I think) what he was writing in the Republic. He was trying to gain favour, if I recollect.

[Cassandra]

Who was he trying to gain favour with?

he disagreed greatly with the contemporary democracy, taking after Socrates in thinking people knew nothing. Surely this would mean he would agree with a great part of the Republic even if it is possible that he disagreed with some of 'Socrates' arguments.

[Cassandra]

Fine! Don't answer me! ;)

[crisaor]

From what I understand, Plato wrote the Republic as a sort of homage (and to leave a legacy) of his teacher's wisdom. Socrates is the protagonist of most of the dialogues.

[atiguhya padma]

Cassandra,

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner!:)

The Republic is Plato's attempt to build a philosopher state. He wants to gain favour for him and his followers to rule. I don't think Plato really believed what he wrote in the Republic. He just wanted to put a strong case for philosophical rule. By the time he wrote the Laws, his views were quite different. For instance, in the Republic he is against poets and poetry. In fact, if I remember correctly, he wanted a state where poetry was illegal. The Laws, though, is so much more palatable.

[Cassandra]

I don't think he wants to make poetry illegal (you'd think I could spell this word going into law and all) just very censored.

[Vencedor]

Finally! I had to register just to comment on this post.

I'm 16 and looking at connections between Plato's Republic and 1984 for an english essay.

First of all, Plato wrote "The Republic" years after the death of Socrates, most people agree that it had very little to do with the views of his mentor. Plato's earliest texts such as "The Apology," or "Crito," were written soon after Socrates' execution and those are believed to be the most accurate descriptions of Socrates and his views. "Plato's Republic," on the other hand was purely Plato. When Plato started writing things like "The Republic" he used to put his own views in his masters mouth. Can't say I agree with that but its how he did it.

[ShoutGrace]

At any rate car talk hits too close to politics, so how about 1984 vs. The Republic?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm working through the Republic in off hours at the moment, and am having trouble ordering some thoughts on this topic - merely because the Republic is taxing on my weak brain matter, and finals are already looming - amazingly enough.

[Zerubbabel]

1984, which was originaly named The Last Man in Europe, and Huxley's Brave New World both examine the inability of the individual to stand against the group. 26 centuries ago Plato observed the same thing. The Beast metaphor paints the picture clearly. The cave metaphor illustrates the blinder effect that society has on the individual.

Plato was selling his academy as the way to discovering true individuality, absolute truth, or "the Good," in the face of overwhelmingly misleading societal pressure. The same thing every philosopher has done since.

Ask yourself what makes humanity distinct from animals, what constitures the soul. What ever you may answer is what the future 1984 and BNW worlds seek to eliminate.

The struggle of the individual soul against the Beast is an eternal conflict. Orwell and Huxley both ask if the individual can win. (Plato says you must join his academy to win)