Whom Must We Worship?

[Gurrato Alaien]

Whom Must We Worship?

The submission of man to His Creator is the essence of Islam. The name “Islam” is chosen by God (Allah) and not by man. It is the same unifying Message revealed to all the Prophets and Messengers by Allah and which they spread amongst their respective nations. In its Final form it was revealed to Muhammad (Peace & Mercy of Allah be upon him) as a complete Message to whole mankind. The Lord, Allah, is the True and Only Creator that deserves to be worshipped. No worship is worthy of being given to a stone, statue, a cross, a triangle, Khomeini, Farakhan, Eliajahs, Malcom’s X or Y, Ghandi, Krishna, Guru, Buddha, Mahatma, Emperor, Joseph Smith, Sun, Moon (not to that from Korea too!), Light, Fire, rivers, cows, Rama, Temples, Prophets, Messengers (Yes! Muslims do not worship Muhammad-peace be upon him), Saints, Priests, Monks, Movie Stars, Sheiks, etc.!!! All are created beings or things.

ALLAH, is the Name of the One True God. His Name is not chosen by man and does not have a number or gender. It is known that Allah is the Name of God in Aramaic, the language of our beloved Prophet Jesus and a sister language of Arabic. The Name “Allah” has been used by all previous Prophets starting with Adam and by the last and final Prophet, Muhammad (Peace be upon them all).

The Innate Nature in man recognizes what is good and bad, what is true and false. It recognizes that the Attributes of Allah must be True, Unique, and All-Perfect. It does not feel comfortable towards any kind of degradation of His Attributes not does it qualities to the Creator. Many who became “discontent with God” did so because of the practices of the Church in medieval Europe and because of the claims of “god dwelling in a son” and the concept of the “original sin”. However, they “escaped” into worshipping a new theory called “mother nature” as well as the “material” World. With the advancement of materialistic technology others from different religions adopted the concept of “forgetting about God” and “let us live this life and enjoy it!”, not realizing that they have chosen the worship of the “original god” of Rome: Desire! .As a result the “enjoyment” is turning to “suffering” from AIDS.


NOW we can see that all of this materialistic and secular progress produced a spiritual vacuum that led to complex social, economical, political, and psychological problems. Many of those who “fled” their “religions” are in search again. Some try to “escape” the complexity of their daily lives via various means. Those who had the chance to examine the Qur’an and Islam, proceed with a complete way of life that relates man to establish a purpose for his presence on earth. This is well recognized in the Attributes of Allah and what does He require from man. He does not want man to be enslaved to any false deity: nature, drugs, lust, money, other man, desire, or sex. He provides man with the proofs that He is the One who can redeem so that man can free himself from the slavery to any form of creation and to turn to his Creator Alone. THIS Creator Has Perfect Attributes. He is the First, nothing is before Him, the Ever Living. To Him is the Final Return where everyone will be dealt with in the Most Perfect and Just way. He does not begot nor He is begotten. Those who attribute Divinity to Jesus forget or ignore the fact that Jesus was in a mother’s womb. He needed nutrition; he was born and grew up to be a man. He was trusted with the Gospel as a Message to the Children of Israel: “For there is One God, and one mediator (i.e. a messenger) between God and men (the Children of Israel), the man Christ Jesus) (I Timothy 2:5). A man-messenger calling his nation not to worship him: “But in vain they do worship me!” (Mathew 15:9). A man who needs to eat, walk, sleed, rest, etc.. cannot have Divine Attributes because he is in need and God (Allah) is Self-Sufficient.

AS far as Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Marxism, and Capitalism, there is the devotion of worshipping created being/things in one form or another. Jews had attributed a “Nationalistic” belonging to Allah. They labeled Him “The Tribal God” for the Children of Israel. Men and women following these “religions” were born with the natural inclination of submission to their Creator, Allah. It is their parents who had driven them into their respective traditions. However, once people are exposed to the Signs of Allah around them, or in the Qur’an or to someone who triggers their Fitra (natural inclination to worship Allah Alone), the reverting process begins and that is why we see a universal spreading of Islam. In the West and despite tha many distortions of Islam in the Media, many admit that Islam may be the fastest growing Faith. No sense of fairness can be achieved without a genuine attempt to know the Word of Allah in the Qur’an and not on the 30-min-Evening News. This is the real challenge for those who seek the Truth. Man is created for a purpose: to live a life in accordance with Allah’s way. Why Not? Do we posses the air we breath? Did we create ourselves or others? Or were we ourselves the Creators? We are limited and weak. So is our right to ignore our Creator where we all need Him?

ISLAM is the submission in worship to Allah Alone and it is the essence of all the Messages sent to all nations before us. Allah is All-Just and All-Wise. He does not intend confusion for His Creation. The religion accepted to Him is the one chosen by Him. Its essence must be One, because He is One. It is free from geographical, racist, and status oriented concepts. It is Perfect and it is the complete way of life. All these qualities are chosen by Allah in His Only Religion: Islam. Its details are in in the Qur’an, read it and come with an open heart because none can expose better than the World of Allah. The Qur’an was revealed to Prophet Muhammad. He did not author it. He was unlettered. Its translation is available in many languages in bookstores or in an Islamic Center close to you. Take the time to read it and come/call the Islamic Center, or speak to someone who re-verted and submitted to Allah Alone.

The Decision is yours!

Peace.

[Whifflingpin]

"Those who attribute Divinity to Jesus forget or ignore the fact that Jesus was in a mother’s womb."
This may be what you have been taught, but it is, in fact as far from the truth as it is possible to get. A central belief in Christianity is that God, the Creator of all things entered into his own creation in the form of a helpless child. Of course you think this belief is nonsense, but your talk of Christianity simply reveals your profound ignorance of that faith.


"AS far as Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Marxism, and Capitalism, there is the devotion of worshipping created being/things in one form or another."
I know a little about Zoroastrianism, and I can assure you that there is, in that religion no worship given to created beings or things. Ahura Mazda, the good creator, alone is worshipped.
Books are created things, and the devotion which some Muslims give to the Qur'an would be recognised by any non-Muslim as idolatry.

"No sense of fairness can be achieved without a genuine attempt to know the Word of Allah in the Qur’an"
Unfortunately, the Qur'an is only true in Arabic. Translations are simply not good enough (or so other Muslims have explained in this forum recently.) In relying so heavily on the exact letter of the Qur'an, Moslems reduce Allah to the kind of tribal God that they condemn the Jews for believing in.

"Man is created for a purpose: to live a life in accordance with Allah’s way."
This is true, but just because someone says, "I am following God's way," that does not mean that he is.

"The Decision is yours!"
Thank you. I decide that any religion that attempts to reduce God to a book, a ritual, or a particular path is not a true faith but a blasphemy.
The God of Christians says "I have lived with you. Come and live with Me"
The God of Zoroastrians says "Help Me in my work"
The God of Islam says "Submit"

The decision is yours.

[Amra]

A central belief in Christianity is that God, the Creator of all things entered into his own creation in the form of a helpless child.

I don't understand how one can sincerely believe that God Almighty did something like this. :confused:


Books are created things, and the devotion which some Muslims give to the Qur'an would be recognised by any non-Muslim as idolatry.

I think you are somehow trying to find fault with something that really has no fault, and because of that intention your statements do not make any sense. The holy Qur'an is God's Word. We worship God's word, live by it, and respect it as it is supposed to be respected. Which part of this is idolatry?


Unfortunately, the Qur'an is only true in Arabic. Translations are simply not good enough (or so other Muslims have explained in this forum recently.) In relying so heavily on the exact letter of the Qur'an, Moslems reduce Allah to the kind of tribal God that they condemn the Jews for believing in.

The know the word of Allah t. means to know and live by His commandments, to accept them and adhere by them, and to be able to achieve that, you do not have to know the arabic language. Again, I do not understand how adhering to God's word as it is given to us can somehow be considered wrong. ?


The God of Christians says "I have lived with you. Come and live with Me"

What does this statement mean?

[Whifflingpin]

"W: A central belief in Christianity is that God, the Creator of all things entered into his own creation in the form of a helpless child.
A: I don't understand how one can sincerely believe that God Almighty did something like this. "

"W: The God of Christians says "I have lived with you. Come and live with Me"
A: What does this statement mean?"

Well, when you do understand it, you will realise what an amazing religion Christianity is. Presumably, even you can accept that God could do it if he wanted to (otherwise you are imposing limits on God.) The question is "Why would he do this?" and the answer is His love. Mankind had separated itself from God, and to remedy this God united Himself with humanity. If you find this totally staggering to believe - good - that is how the first Christians reacted when they first began to realise what they were experiencing.

[Whifflingpin]

To "know the word of Allah means to know and live by His commandments, to accept them and adhere by them, and to be able to achieve that, you do not have to know the arabic language."

" Again, I do not understand how adhering to God's word as it is given to us can somehow be considered wrong. ?"

How do Muslims know what God commands? God's word (you say) has been given in the Qur'an. In order to understand the Qur'an correctly it is necessary to know Arabic. Therefore, in your religion, it is not possible to know what God's commandments truly are unless you know Arabic.

Am I misinterpreting your arguments? Do you believe that God's word can be heard and understood without the Qur'an? Do you think that a translation is as good as the original? If so, I must start again, because all I know of Islamic belief is what you have written.

Of course it is not wrong to do as God wants. I think that it is wrong to think that any book can define what God wants, or that God's word sounds better in one language than another.

[Amra]

"Well, when you do understand it, you will realise what an amazing religion Christianity is. Presumably, even you can accept that God could do it if he wanted to (otherwise you are imposing limits on God.) The question is "Why would he do this?" and the answer is His love. Mankind had separated itself from God, and to remedy this God united Himself with humanity. If you find this totally staggering to believe - good - that is how the first Christians reacted when they first began to realise what they were experiencing."

Can you answer my question and save the rhetoric?
A Creator does not need to become a human being to KNOW humans. He created them. If you build a computer, do you have to become a computer to know how it functions?

[Amra]

"How do Muslims know what God commands? God's word (you say) has been given in the Qur'an. In order to understand the Qur'an correctly it is necessary to know Arabic. Therefore, in your religion, it is not possible to know what God's commandments truly are unless you know Arabic.

Am I misinterpreting your arguments? Do you believe that God's word can be heard and understood without the Qur'an? Do you think that a translation is as good as the original? If so, I must start again, because all I know of Islamic belief is what you have written."

Every muslim should try and strive to learn and understand as much arabic as possible. The reason for this is that it is the language of the holy Qur'an, it is the language in which God chose to speak to human beings, it is the language chosen by Him because of its beauty and rhythm that define Qur'an, and it is the language that muslims pray in and talk to God. However, it is not necessary to know arabic to understand the Word of God, as we have the translations of it, but more importantly, we have scholars that interpert the word of God and bring it closer to us. Even those people who know arabic rely on this second source to understand the meaning of the Qur'an. You do need to know arabic if you want to interpret the Qur'an, but you do not need to know it to live and adhere to God's words, because muslims do not interpret the Qur'an without qualifications and enough knowledge. Also, it is strange for you to even raise an argument like this when you don't even have the Bible in the original language saved anywhere, or am I mistaken?

"
Of course it is not wrong to do as God wants. I think that it is wrong to think that any book can define what God wants, or that God's word sounds better in one language than another.
"

If God thought it was enought, why do you suppose you know better?

[Moiz]

first of all i would like to say that quran is so vast a book that it is incomprehendable . meaning though the transations make out the apparent meaning they do not however explain the underlying implications.thus it is impossible to translate it with perfection. so in other words what is on thew surface is what we hav to do but if we make more out of the quran than just the translation we can get deeper insight and therefore know god and the world better and no man in this world camn tell you all the meaning of a single word of the qura. just for eg a word in a surah has 27 meanings known, there might be many more.

[Whifflingpin]

Amra, I happen to like rhetoric, as you do clearly, when it is on your side. I will answer your questions as I want to. Feel free to ignore me or disagree with me as you wish.

Did I say that God became a human to know humans? I did not. Christians believe that God became a human in order that humans might know God, and that, in my view makes Christianity an amazing religion.

[Amra]

Bismillah,

Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt. (6:114)

There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. Nothing have we omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end.
(6:38)

"The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient." (6:115)

This and many other verses confirm the completnes of the holy Qur'an and of God's word.




"Amra, I happen to like rhetoric, as you do clearly, when it is on your side. I will answer your questions as I want to. Feel free to ignore me or disagree with me as you wish."

I have nothing against rhetoric, but if that is the only thing you have, then we cannot lead a productive discussion.

"Did I say that God became a human to know humans? I did not. Christians believe that God became a human in order that humans might know God, and that, in my view makes Christianity an amazing religion."

Maybe you didn't say that, but a lot of Christians did tell me that. I was told that God came to Earth to know humans, and at certain occasions I was told that He had to come in order to die so that the sins can be forgiven. Now I hear from you that He came so that humans can know Him. Let's go with that for now...How can humans know God by Him becoming one of them? If He wants them to know Him, shouldn't He have come as Himself? Jesus didn't have the nature of God, so how can you claim that humans can know him, when he was a human as well? How can knowing a human being lead to knowing God? :confused:

[Whifflingpin]

Amra, I doubt that we can lead a productive discussion, any more than a dragon can have a productive discussion with a tree.

Each of us believes that the vital truth expressed by the other is a nonsense, incomprehensible and wrong.

You quote some verses of the Koran, which, you say, confirm that the Koran is God's complete and only word. However, they only do that if you already believe that the Koran is God's complete and only word. I recognise that you do believe that. I don't believe it, so quoting the Koran in that way is actually not discussion, but simply talking to yourself.

I appreciate that, to you, the idea of God entering his own creation is either monstrous or nonsense - rather more nonsensical than a computer programmer actually becoming a bit of silicon, in order to overcome a software bug - but, there it is - that is what Christians believe. Shouldn't He have come as himself? Well, if He had come in all his Godhead, there would have been an end to all creation, I think. So he came as Jesus, truly human, veiling his Godhead. Humans do not have the capacity to know God the Creator directly, but they can know God through his human self.

And, of course, it is not as simple as that. You have been told that He had to come in order to die so that the sins can be forgiven. I would not say "He had to come," but "He chose to come." Human sin is that separation from God that I referred to earlier, and the argument is that as all humans are sinful, the separation cannot be repaired from the human side, by humans. The paradox is that as the separation is caused by humans, only humans can remedy the separation. Hence God loves his creation so much that He becomes human in order to be the one non-sinful human who can re-unite mankind with God. When I said "that humans might know God" that is what I was meant, more or less.

Of course, it is not as simple as that.

[Amra]

Sorry, but all that sounds like a fairy tale to me, so I leave the discussion not wanting to further offend anyone. I seriously cannot lead a discussion in which someone claims God came as a human being, so that we may know Him, but we cannot know Him, only His human self? :confused: I get irritated by statements like this.

[Unspar]

I've learned a lot about Islam on this forum, and I'm very grateful for it. One question I have consistently, though, is about the Muslim understanding of Jesus. I'm sorry if this isn't the most relevant place to ask this question, but it's the most recent thread available.

In the Gospels, Jesus never denies that He is the Son of God (excuse the wording of that phrase--I understand that Muslims believe God cannot beget, but this is the easiest way for me to understand Jesus' relationship to God). Peter calls him the Christ to His face, and Jesus accepts his worship. A true prophet of God who is nothing more than a prophet of God would have rebuked Peter for that worship. Jesus also makes many claims that He is divine, claims that a mere prophet would not make, the most famous of which is, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).

So my question: What does Islam do with this behavior of Jesus? How do Muslims believe He is no more than a prophet when He does things like this?

I firmly believe that he who seeks God with all his or her heart will find Him; therefore, I want to make it clear that I am seeking God's truth and am not trying to pick a fight.

[Nightshade]

Excuse me if I may interrupt?, thanks :D
In answer to the title of the thread the answer is noone. there is no MUST in religon, if there wa s a must ie people weere force by soicetya dn oother people or nay even by GOd himself to worship a Godit takes the object out of religon whrere would be the test of faith?
What would be the point?
OK going to de,monstrate this with a quote fromthe quaran --but only because Im familiar with it--" There is no force in religon, the truth has been shown(seperated) from the false..."

As fo arbaic no I dont think you can only be a muslim if you know arabic, although this is a common theory. But I think if your going to studfy the quaran to teach other people you need to at least be familiar with the basic theories and workings of the arbic languge and the special way the koran is set out. Foor example we have a copy of translation of the Koran where surraht El baqrah (the cow) has been renamed surrat Beni Israil( the children of israil)
But I would like to point somthing out quite objectivley ( I hope) so please dont take offence but you can not reasnobly expect to critisise another religon if you are not as familiar with it as yuour own, and definetly not if all your understanding of it comes from hearsay and other peoples opions on what the religon practices and belives.
For instance when I was working in the high school library they got a set of book o religon and it claimed all sorts of things about islam whicich were wrong, and they mafde the mistakes not on purpose but simply because th authour was obviously not familiar enough with th topic he was trying to write about.

:D

[Nightshade]

I've learned a lot about Islam on this forum, and I'm very grateful for it. One question I have consistently, though, is about the Muslim understanding of Jesus. I'm sorry if this isn't the most relevant place to ask this question, but it's the most recent thread available.

In the Gospels, Jesus never denies that He is the Son of God (excuse the wording of that phrase--I understand that Muslims believe God cannot beget, but this is the easiest way for me to understand Jesus' relationship to God). Peter calls him the Christ to His face, and Jesus accepts his worship. A true prophet of God who is nothing more than a prophet of God would have rebuked Peter for that worship. Jesus also makes many claims that He is divine, claims that a mere prophet would not make, the most famous of which is, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).

So my question: What does Islam do with this behavior of Jesus? How do Muslims believe He is no more than a prophet when He does things like this?

I firmly believe that he who seeks God with all his or her heart will find Him; therefore, I want to make it clear that I am seeking God's truth and am not trying to pick a fight.
Ill answer this if you like in the religous question and answers thread.

:D

[Whifflingpin]

They don't acknowledge such behaviour from Jesus. Simple enough. To Moslems, the Gospels are considered to be corrupt (and Christians cannot prove them otherwise) whereas the Qur'an contains the truth. Anything in the Gospels that does not accord with the Qur'an is either part of the corruption, or is misinterpreted.
Any claim that Jesus was divine offends against the absolute truth that God is One and Indivisible. Such claims are considered self-contradictory.

There is enough in the Gospels to show that Jesus was, nonetheless, a worthy prophet.

(Not that I am a Moslem, or even a scholar, just summarizing explanations recently made in this forum by Muslims. OK Amra, did I get it right?)

[Unspar]

Let's go. I just am not sure where to find that thread. Could you spot me a link? Or directions?

[Nightshade]

They don't acknowledge such behaviour from Jesus. Simple enough. To Moslems, the Gospels are considered to be corrupt (and Christians cannot prove them otherwise) whereas the Qur'an contains the truth. Anything in the Gospels that does not accord with the Qur'an is either part of the corruption, or is misinterpreted.
Any claim that Jesus was divine offends against the absolute truth that God is One and Indivisible. Such claims are considered self-contradictory.

There is enough in the Gospels to show that Jesus was, nonetheless, a worthy prophet.

(Not that I am a Moslem, or even a scholar, just summarizing explanations recently made in this forum by Muslims. OK Amra, did I get it right?)
Yes and no, not Divine as such but you missed out the fact that Jesus was a miracle in everyway a sign and one of God's ultmite gifts to humanity and in particular "the children of Israeil".

[Nightshade]

Let's go. I just am not sure where to find that thread. Could you spot me a link? Or directions?
here you go

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15190
:D:D

[Amra]

"In the Gospels, Jesus never denies that He is the Son of God (excuse the wording of that phrase--I understand that Muslims believe God cannot beget, but this is the easiest way for me to understand Jesus' relationship to God). Peter calls him the Christ to His face, and Jesus accepts his worship. A true prophet of God who is nothing more than a prophet of God would have rebuked Peter for that worship. Jesus also makes many claims that He is divine, claims that a mere prophet would not make, the most famous of which is, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6)."

It is true that muslims do not accept today's Bible for truth, because it is believed to have been corrupted by humans over time. However, even if we take that out of the consideration and just go by what Jesus said according to the Bible, I do not think that it is enough to believe that he is divine in any way. After all, he never claims that himself, nor does he say that he is God, nor that we should worship him. Why would God be so vague about himself, and not tell people directly that he is God and that we need to worship him?

"So my question: What does Islam do with this behavior of Jesus? How do Muslims believe He is no more than a prophet when He does things like this?"

What things? Jesus a.s acts exactly like any other Prophet acted during his mission. As muslims, we have to accept that Mohammed a.s is God's Prophet, and we have to follow his sunnah (practice) in order to be considered believers. So, the only way to Allah s.v.t is through following what Mohammed a.s practiced. Isn't that the same as what Jesus a.s said in the verse that the only way to God is through him? What is the difference?

"I firmly believe that he who seeks God with all his or her heart will find Him; therefore, I want to make it clear that I am seeking God's truth and am not trying to pick a fight."

Only God can guide you, and I wish you all the best in your search.

[Whifflingpin]

"Amen amen lego umin, prin Abraam genesthai ego eimi. eran oun lithous ina balosin"

"After all, he never claims that himself, nor does he say that he is God"

He does, according to Chapter 8 of St John's Gospel, verses 57 et seq.

Jesus was saying to the Jews, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day."
"How can you have known Abraham, you are not yet fifty years old."
"Truly, I tell you that before Abraham was born I AM"
Then the Jews picked up stones to throw at him.

Jesus' listeners understood him perfectly, to say that he was God, but they were not ready to hear him, and so they prepared to stone him for blaspheming.

Of course, you can reject the account as corrupt, but only then can you claim that Jesus never claimed to be God.

.

[Amra]

"Jesus was saying to the Jews, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day."
"How can you have known Abraham, you are not yet fifty years old."
"Truly, I tell you that before Abraham was born I AM"
Then the Jews picked up stones to throw at him.
"

Again, this doesn't prove that he was God. Muslims believe that God created souls before He created our bodies. Our souls have been created and have all testified the existence of God. We believe that the first soul created was that of Mohammed a.s. However, this doesn't mean that he is God, nor that he is divine in any way.

[Shield&Sword]

Assalamo alaikom,
BISM ALLAH ARRAHMAN ARRAHEEM,

I would like to know which verses show that Jesus pbuh is God.
I was surprised when a user gave this example:
"AS far as Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Marxism, and Capitalism, there is the devotion of worshipping created being/things in one form or another."
You are copmairing ur religion to another pagan relgion, and the strange thing that you are trying to show similarity, so strange, well if so then we can put christianity also in this group of religion, coz they all r based on same thing (which is: god was entered in his creatures), so there is nothing special in christianity as alot of other unlogical beliefs r based on same thing, and being hindu or budhist is same thing as being christian, even hindu is better coz we still see the cows untle now, and not lived once and died. Scuse me for these words.
The verse that a user put was about that Jesus pbuh is the life and the only way, well yes he is, in that time the one who doesnt believe in Jesus pbuh that he is massenger of ALLAH then he wont enter heaven, and also islam have same teaching, the one who doesnt believe in massenger of ALLAH wont enter paradise, so BELIEVING IN SOMEONE AND HIS MASSAGE is the ONLY DOOR TO BELIEVE IN ALLAH, u cant say Jesus pbuh is God coz he is the only way to heaven, yes he is but his words mean that the one who believe in him FOR SURE will believe in ALLAH, COZ THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW ALLAH SO WELL WITHOUT A PROPHET.
Believing in prophets in islam is so important and without it no one can enter paradise, IF A MUSLIM BELIEVE IN MUHAMMAD PBUH AND DOESNT BELIEVE IN JESUS PBUH WONT ENTER PARADISE, and also denying abraham or any other prophet of ALLAH will lead to hell, and he is out of islam. So its true that Jesus pbuh at that time was the only way to enter paradise, coz he came after jews chainged thier book, and did wrong things, and teachings of Jesus pbuh was the only teachings that gave the right image, so he was the only way.
I can say that Muhammad pbuh is the only way to enter heaven coz he is massenger of ALLAH and believing in him mean believing in all other prophets, and believing in them in right way, not as in bible, also i can say that Jesus is the only way to paradise, coz believing in his RIGHT teachings mean beleiving in all other prophets, also same thing for Abraham pbuh or any other prophet coz thier massage is EQUAL, but now we have no source to know prophets and ALLAH but massage of Muhammad pbuh, coz its the only teachings that have same teachings that Jesus pbuh came with and Moses pbuh and all other prophets (the right teachings).
The user who wrote the word Begotten about God, and that he can have Begotten son, well this word is CANCELED from new versions of bible, u can find it int King James version, but writers decided to cancel it, they saw it unsuitable word, and cant be relaited to God, i explained it before in other dialogue, but i will rewrite it here again. The word begot is a word used with animals, and it describe an action that need the lowest level of other action to be made which is sex, and this word is used between the creatures (animals) and cant be relaited to ALLAH. Read the verse John 3:16, this verse is used by preachers always, but it has new form now. I think if the bible that ppl have now is in the original language of Jesus pbuh which is aramic they wont have this difficulty in choosing the terms, EVEN ITS NOT PROBLEM OF TRANSLATION, ITS PROBLEM OF EXISTENCE OF WORD OR NOT, WHICH MEAN PROBELM WITH SCRIPTURES THEY USE.
The one who talked about the language of Holy Quran, well if its not possible to translate the language of Hloy Quran to another language, then it shows the difficulty and the mode in which it was written, which mean not man who wrote it. If u go to any book written in arabic by normal writer u will find it easy to translate it, while Holy Quran is written in language that no one can do like it, even ARABS, BUT IT CAN BE UNDERSTOOD. The meaning of scentences can be understood, and then translating it to another language, and when u read Holy Quran in any other language, u will understand it, but they can translate is word by word and also when its translated the way of reading it will be different, BUT UNDERSTANDING THE IDEA IS POSSIBLE, and the IDEA is so clear. Even if u go to india u will find ppl who dont speak arabic but they put whole Holy Quran in memory as it is in arabic, word by word, really amazing.
I hope u get my idea even if my english is not so good, coz i translated my thoughts from arabic to english, not word by word but the idea is so clear can be understood.
Alhamdo LiLLAH, thank ALLAH
Assalamo alaikom

[Whifflingpin]

"Jesus was saying to the Jews, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day."
"How can you have known Abraham, you are not yet fifty years old."
"Truly, I tell you that before Abraham was born I AM"
Then the Jews picked up stones to throw at him.
"

Again, this doesn't prove that he was God. Muslims believe that God created souls before He created our bodies. Our souls have been created and have all testified the existence of God. We believe that the first soul created was that of Mohammed a.s. However, this doesn't mean that he is God, nor that he is divine in any way.

"I AM" is the accepted meaning of the name Yahweh. Jesus was stating in words that were clear and shocking to his listeners that he was God. If you don't choose to accept his claim, fair enough. Most of his listeners did not accept it either.

[Whifflingpin]

"The user who wrote the word Begotten about God, and that he can have Begotten son, well this word is CANCELED from new versions of bible, u can find it int King James version, but writers decided to cancel it, they saw it unsuitable word, and cant be relaited to God,"

I don't know why I am answering this nonsense, I let it pass unchallenged the first time -

John's Gospel was written in Greek. The word he used in Chapter 3 verse 16 was "monogene" The "mono" part means single or only, and the "gene" part means "begotten." (same root as "genitals" and "gene" and all the rest)

The reason why some modern translations may not use the word is that the word is simply not used much in modern English. If an English parent today said "I have begat me a son" his hearers would find the phrase comically old-fashioned.

[Amra]

"
"Jesus was saying to the Jews, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day."
"How can you have known Abraham, you are not yet fifty years old."
"Truly, I tell you that before Abraham was born I AM"
Then the Jews picked up stones to throw at him.


""I AM" is the accepted meaning of the name Yahweh. Jesus was stating in words that were clear and shocking to his listeners that he was God. If you don't choose to accept his claim, fair enough. Most of his listeners did not accept it either."

:confused: What do you mean "i am" is the accepted meaning of the name Yahweh? Accepted by whom? If that is the meaning, than the above statement doesn't make sense. It would go like this then: "Truly, I tell you that before Abraham was born Jahweh". Right? Let's see then what this means. Before Abraham was born Jahweh. If he was saying this, why would Jews stone him, when their God is Jahweh, and he was there before Abraham? If he wasn't saying that, but simply said Before Abraham was born, I am (note the comma sign, which I don't know if it is in the original translation, but it makes a big difference whether or not it is used), then he meant to say that before Abraham, Jesus was born, which again doesn't mean he is God. It simply means that his soul could have been created before that of Abraham, as we believe that to have happened with Mohammed a.s. However, if you claim that by simply saying BEfore Abraham was born I am, and from that somehow we understand that he claims to have been God, than I don't know where you get all that. You say "I am" means Yahweh? Do you mean conceptually it is used like that, or the words "I am" mean litterray that?

[Whifflingpin]

"What do you mean "i am" is the accepted meaning of the name Yahweh? Accepted by whom?"

Exodus Chapter 3, verses 13 & 14. And Moses said unto God ... (when) they shall say unto me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them. And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.

If Jesus had simply been saying that God existed before Abraham, his listeners would not have been upset. If he had simply been talking about a theory of the birth of souls, his listeners would have loved it. But they knew he was identifying himself as God, in the words in which God identified himself to Moses, and they were appalled.

[Amra]

Either Jesus was playing some word games with the Jews or we are totally interpreting his words differently. God identifies Himself as "I AM". I understand that. Jesus says that before Abraham, there was "I am". I understand that too. It means that God existed before Abraham. However, how you get that he was saying that he is God out of this, is beyond my comprehension. Jews were against Jesus becuse they didn't accept him as a Prophet. (period) They could have been throwing stones simply because of that reason, and it is perfectly enough. People have thrown stones at Prophet MOhammed a.s as well. It is not unusual for Prophets to be prosecuted, humiliated, and abused in many ways by the people to whom they were sent.

Do you have a verse where Jesus a.s says he is God, and that he should be worshiped? Do you have a verse where he claims that he is divine, or that he has the nature of God?

[Whifflingpin]

"However, how you get that he was saying that he is God out of this, is beyond my comprehension."

I'll leave it at that.

[Amra]

Yeah..it's always the same with the Christians... ;) However, it's your duty to tell me and to help me understand, because if your way is the truth, you have the responsibility to call other people into it and save them. :nod: If you don't know the answer, then you should say so. Then I can look somewhere else. But, if you do know the answer, and are hiding it for some reason, then that is not very christian. ;) Peace to you.

[Shield&Sword]

Assalamo alaikom
BISM ALLAH ARRAHMAN ARRAHEEM

I didnt know that with time the writers CANCEL words from bible as its not used, while in Apocalisse 22:18-19 it is written so clear about canceling and adding words, and what the one who do this will get. If its matter of translation its ok, but its not, its matter of CANCELING of word, no matter the reason is, canceling is canceling, adding is adding.

Alhamdo LILLAH

[Fontainhas]

Whom must we worship?

Ourselves! For we are our only saviour, I should think.

[followeroftruth]

A central belief in Christianity is that God, the Creator of all things entered into his own creation in the form of a helpless child. Of course you think this belief is nonsense, but your talk of Christianity simply reveals your profound ignorance of that faith..
sadly Christians read the bible and follow their faith and yet all that is written there they either disregard or they twist and turn the meanings to make it suit that beleif that Jesus is GOD no matter what jesus said in opposition to that belief.
Job 14:1 Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble. {few…: Heb. short of days}

Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
Do these verses from job describe Man as a GOD, Christians claim jesus was Full and full GOD so hear it tells you full man born of a womanis of few days.GOD is eternal and ever living.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.Clearly that which is born of flesh is flesh, was Jesus born a spirit , he was born human, he urinated and deficated.Does GOD do that too just because he loved the world, does he Humiliate himself for this earth , something he created and will destroy.
GOD in the bible it self in so many places has made it clear who he is and isn't and Jesus too made it clear who was GOD and it definitely was not him.

Nu 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Jesus even said:
Mt 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
In laymans terms, don't call me GOD, cos I am not.
Also he said:

Mt 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
again in layman's terms I cannot be GOD this is impossible for me but everything is possible for GOD so how can I be GOD? Does it need to be clearer than that.

Mt 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God‘s
Is this GOD saying now? and This?
Mt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Come on now do not earn the anger of GOD by telling lies about him, even if one says Jesus was reciting the Psalms at the Time of his alleged death, does GOD do that, recite his book at the time of his death and suffering, Does GOD suffer , does GOD die, for a lowly creation like man.

Lu 23:35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.Even the people Around him knew he was the Chosen of GOD and not GOD.

Joh 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
Does this come anywhere near saying I am GOD? If he was GOD then his angels came and descended on him.Would it not be better put in layman's terms, My heaven opened and My angels came down on me cos I am GOD.

Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Need more Explanation they knew he was a teacher that came from GOD and not GOD who came to man and they knew that only one who is sent by GOD does gOD give these powers to perform miracles to.

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Again he in layman's terms explains that his doctrine is from GOD, another entity not for m him ,since he is not GOD (READ MY LIPS He is not GOD).

Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. So who is this GOD that Jesus heard the truth from? Himself?

Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: if jesus was GOD does another GOD have to honor him, He says here if he honours himself his honour is Nothing.Clear a child would understand.In laymans terms I cannot be GOD since GOD says

Joh 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. Who is this GOD and fatherJesus is referring to? himself?

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Does this need any more explaining that Jesus Could not be GOD Cos he talk of the one true GOD who sent Jesus.So how can he be GOD, Did he send himself.Can you explain that to me with EvidenceHow GOD can send hinmself when Jesus is Saying to GOD that GOD sent him.What Bible do you lot read.Which Jesus do you lot beleive in?

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father;.
Stop blaspheming GOD anmd stop blaspheming Jesus the Answers are Clear in the Bible.Search for the truth and you will find it.

Do notinvite the wrath of GOD, seek the truth and do not let your emotions blind you.GOD will punish you severely for this.Repent and and turn to the only true GOD, to my God, and your God. then you can honestly say you are a follower the true Jesus.Untill then you are Kidding yourself.
:




If Christians say Jesus was Full man and full GOD something he could not have been at one time cos he said:

Mt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
So you either serve GOD or serve man not the two at once.


"Man is created for a purpose: to live a life in accordance with Allah’s way."
This is true, but just because someone says, "I am following God's way," that does not mean that he is.
"The Decision is yours!"
Thank you.
The decision is yours.

Peace :banana:

[Mililalil XXIV]

I don't understand how one can sincerely believe that God Almighty did something like this. :confused:


Books are created things, and the devotion which some Muslims give to the Qur'an would be recognised by any non-Muslim as idolatry.

I think you are somehow trying to find fault with something that really has no fault, and because of that intention your statements do not make any sense. The holy Qur'an is God's Word. We worship God's word, live by it, and respect it as it is supposed to be respected. Which part of this is idolatry?



The know the word of Allah t. means to know and live by His commandments, to accept them and adhere by them, and to be able to achieve that, you do not have to know the arabic language. Again, I do not understand how adhering to God's word as it is given to us can somehow be considered wrong. ?



What does this statement mean?
When one so gives their mind up, not to an enlightener, but for someone, before they can investigate, that is to worship that other's thought. That is what millions of dear muslim people seem to be locked into, buried alive with all sorts of horrible fears.
I was born into an antichristian background, with beliefs as close to islam (without considering them in connection with Muhammad) as one can get. I was told that if I ever entered a Church, God would strike me dead, then destroy me forever in the Judgement.
Despite my former ignorance, I saw clearly why Christians believe the Christian Faith.
Nothing is better than Love. Why? Because it is GOD's own Essence. Every sin is lovelessness. GOD is not a hypocrite. HE said through one of HIS Prophets that HE places HIS Word even above HIS own NAME. Why? HE is saying that HIS proving HIMSELF is more important to HIM than empty Praise. HE knows HIS own Faithfulness, and wants us to know it - then HIS NAME takes on meaning for us.
From the beginning there are hints of an original Knowledge of THREE PERSONS being a DIVINE UNITY. I can get into that in another post, or privately.
The Humility of Love we humans are to share one with another was first shared within the GODHEAD by the TRINITY. In order to create, GOD would have to make HIMSELF the FOUNDATION for the Existence of all that should be originated. The Mode assumed by ONE of the THREE PERSONS (one in DEITY, and inseparably SELF-EXISTANT) to make HIMSELF the BEGINNING of all things is the beginning of all Divine Expression to something other than GOD. Counting the costs, like a good builder, GOD foresaw all that we would freely err in, and prepared HIMSELF, according to sacrificial Paternal Love for us, to become our SAVIOR. Every sin is against THREE infinite PERSONS, and it is not just to leave such things unaddressed (even by insufficiently addressing them).
GOD, being LOVE, had no misgivings about forgiving us, though would not suffer HIS unbegotten DEITY to be demeaned in the Act of Infinite SELF-Humiliation it would take to come down to our aid, handling the unclean to make them clean again. Since HE had no misgivings about showing Humility to HIS EQUAL, HE WHO would become the MAN YESHUA' emptied HIMSELF, laying aside all that was HIS as YAHWEH in the Bosom of HIS EQUAL, WHO then assumed the Role of FATHER to HIM, while HE, submitting to nothing less than the DEITY HE had always shared with THIS PERSON and ONE OTHER, lived as from this FATHER, HIS Life as though an EXTENSION of the FATHER being what HIS SON-Ship consisted of. In the same way is HE also referred to as the WORD/EXPRESSION of GOD. Never did any Christian consider this concept sexual! We consider being a father first of all something GOD alone is in the ultimate sense - then a thing merely reflected in human paternity (man was created in the Image and Likeness of GOD, and not the other way around).
Only as already submitted to the FATHER could the SON, in obedience to HIM, become MAN also, in Which Nature alone could HE interact with men that might or might not acknowledge HIM in the Face.
HE put into all the creation a picture of HIS SELF-giving Nature - even animals fight to the death for their young that have done nothing for them, and are only a burden to sacrificially care for.
There is much more to be said, but I leave off for now.
As for saying that the quran is GOD's Word, that is one thing, but to say it is all of the Expression of an infinite Mind is to idolize one man's literary limits.

[Mililalil XXIV]

sadly Christians read the bible and follow their faith and yet all that is written there they either disregard or they twist and turn the meanings to make it suit that beleif that Jesus is GOD no matter what jesus said in opposition to that belief.

In the Proverbs, JESUS is referred to as WISDOM. GOD was never without WISDOM, yet this WISDOM made HIMSELF (HERSELF in a non-sexual way, the word being in a feminine form) the BEGINNING of all things. Yet Scripture clearly says HE was before even this. The new aspect about WISDOM with regard to the creation is just this:
before the beginning of things, the WISDOM of GOD was only known within the GODHEAD. But the WISDOM we should recieve would require that WISDOM being expressed to newly created witnesses for the first time.
No where does JESUS ever deny being GOD.
In the Gospel of John, HE speaks of the Glory [not of the FATHER, but] Which was HIS and the FATHER's before anything came into existence. Because HE at this time (in the Garden of Gethsemane, before HIS arrest) considered it not robbery to be EQUAL with GOD, HE thus refers to recieving back what HE had emptied HIMSELF of, and speaks of the MAN HE had become as from a non-human point of view, speaking of HIMSELF as MAN not as "ME", but as "JESUS CHRIST", as surveying HIS Humanity from HIS DEITY.
Never did HE say "Our FATHER" except in telling us alone to say that. Instead, HE said "MY FATHER and your FATHER", speaking of one FATHER, yet showing HIMSELF a SON in a way none of us can be to GOD.

[Xamonas Chegwe]

We must worship no-one and nothing. In all religions that I know of, the worship must come from a belief that is freely given. There is no MUST.

If someone doesn't believe, they don't believe. Get over it! This is why shariah law is wrong. A law which states that disbelieving in the validity of mohammed as the last prophet is wrong is against that very free choice.

By all means, weep for us poor, benighted atheists; do your damndest to convert us, if you must. But DO NOT tell us what we MUST believe!

[rachel]

very well said teddy bear............

[Xamonas Chegwe]

Sweet vanilla and apricot kisses to you too, you dear thing.........

[XXdarkclarityXX]

May I interject from the soap opera?

Personally, we don't have to worship anyone. What we need to worship is concepts. Do you want to be honest? Worship honesty. Want wealth? Worship money. Sure, Christianity says worshiping idols is evil, but then again they are assuming there is something else after we die. You don't know if there's anything after this world, so why not get ahead as much as you can now?

This, however, does NOT mean that one needs to be as selfish and greedy as humanly possible. Once can strive to be kind as possible, or as charitable as possible. It all depends on the motives of the individual. Morality should exist because the individual wants it, not because of a little place called Hell which may or may not be real.

You can worship those things, or nothing at all. Personally, I don't worship anything. My loyalties are with the people and things that I know now and that I can be sure are real. I refuse to be loyal to some "god" that there is no real evidence for. Something besides religious texts, of course.

[Amra]

If someone doesn't believe, they don't believe. Get over it! This is why shariah law is wrong. A law which states that disbelieving in the validity of mohammed as the last prophet is wrong is against that very free choice.

Shariah law governs MUSLIMS. To be a muslim, you ALREADY believe in God, you believe that Prophet MOhammed a.s was His last Prophet, and you accept shariah law as God's given law to humans. There is no compulsion INTO the religion, but whoever accepts it will be governed according to its doctrine.


Here is something interesting to me...Take the pledge of allegiance for example...Here is how it reads:

I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

Wouldn't you say that atheists are FORCED to say this even though it obviously stands against what they believe in? Why do they say it?

from wikipida.com

On June 24, 1999 the Senate passed a resolution sponsored by Senator Bob Smith of New Hampshire to recite the Pledge before each day's session.

The Pledge is also recited before many local city council meetings and school board meetings, as well as before some school functions.


Ironic? :nod:

Everyone who lives in a democratic society has to adhere to its laws, whatever those are. Those who don't are punished at worst, censored and discriminated against at best. In the shariah law, those who claim to be muslims have to act a certain way and adhere to the laws of Islam. Those who don't believe and who claim not to be muslims ARE NOT required to follow those laws.

[Mililalil XXIV]

Shariah law governs MUSLIMS. To be a muslim, you ALREADY believe in God, you believe that Prophet MOhammed a.s was His last Prophet, and you accept shariah law as God's given law to humans. There is no compulsion INTO the religion, but whoever accepts it will be governed according to its doctrine.


Here is something interesting to me...Take the pledge of allegiance for example...Here is how it reads:

I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

Wouldn't you say that atheists are FORCED to say this even though it obviously stands against what they believe in? Why do they say it?

from wikipida.com

On June 24, 1999 the Senate passed a resolution sponsored by Senator Bob Smith of New Hampshire to recite the Pledge before each day's session.

The Pledge is also recited before many local city council meetings and school board meetings, as well as before some school functions.


Ironic? :nod:

Everyone who lives in a democratic society has to adhere to its laws, whatever those are. Those who don't are punished at worst, censored and discriminated against at best. In the shariah law, those who claim to be muslims have to act a certain way and adhere to the laws of Islam. Those who don't believe and who claim not to be muslims ARE NOT required to follow those laws.
You surely are not comparing the worst irritations to atheists in America to the afflictions of sharia, are you? Atheists seem to have more rights in America than Christians do.

[mcrane]

Mililalil,
im curious!
u've been raised in an antichristian background; and now ur christian??

[Khaled]

To all who believe Jesus is god, Here is the islamic version
Jesus is the prohpet of god, one of God's miracles
Taking when he was still a child
curing people from disease

[Khaled]

To Unspar, hope u r still there
you say the miracles of Jesus makes him more than a prophet
fine, but what about those of Ibraham, soloman and other prophets, didnt those have great miracles. Here is what i think. Miracles are just tools given by god to his messengers so that people can recognize and follow. a miracle does not make jesus a god. do you have another point of view?

[Cephas]

THe only one I can think of is christsianity for it has be ridiculed and suvived, attacked and been under more attacks than most other religions and the creator of its religion told us to follow him to get eternal life NOT his teachings though those too

[Mililalil XXIV]

To Unspar, hope u r still there
you say the miracles of Jesus makes him more than a prophet
fine, but what about those of Ibraham, soloman and other prophets, didnt those have great miracles. Here is what i think. Miracles are just tools given by god to his messengers so that people can recognize and follow. a miracle does not make jesus a god. do you have another point of view?
While I would not say being the Catalyst of Miracles makes one Divine, that doesn't effect JESUS' special case. Of course, that is a case to be looked into. Many Saints have done many Miracles since the Ascension of JESUS, but all in HIS NAME alone.

[Amra]

Jesus a.s never did any miracles on his behalf. All the miracles were done in the name of God Almighty, and even Jesus a.s acknoledged that in the Bible, saying that has has no power except that which God gives him. He never claimed to do ANY of the miracles on his behalf, or through his own doing.

[Theshizznigg]

I worship my Lord, before all others.
No saints, (Though I appreciate St Magnus.) no Mary, just the Trinity of God.

As for all you others, come and join me if you will.

Otherwise you are free to worship what ever you wish, your sofa, your tv, your wife, (Yes dear.) whatever you wish.
Just don't blame me for the consequences of your actions.

[Whifflingpin]

Amra, that is just wishful thinking. Most of the miracles described are simply performed, without reference to any name, but sometimes Jesus declared that he was using his own authority.

For example, in Luke chapter 5, is written that Jesus cured a leper, "and he stretched out his hand and touched him, and said, It is my will; be thou made clean."

And, in Mark chapter 9, is written "John answered him, Master, we saw a man who does not follow in our company casting out devils in thy name, and we forbad him to do it. But Jesus said, Forbid him no more; no-one who does a miracle in my name will lightly speak evil of me."

Clearly, the gospels state that Jesus performed miracles on his own authority, and was able to delegate that authority. In Mark it is written "he sent them out two by two, giving them authority over unclean spirits," and in Luke it is written that those whom he had authorised returned to him rejoicing "Lord, they said, even the devils are made subject to us through thy name."

You may reject the gospels, but if you do not then you should accept that Jesus' authority was innate.

.

[Amra]

What about these verses?

Mark 10:18 Jesus said “And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"

John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"

Matthew 24:36 Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

"By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. (From the NIV Bible, John 5:30)"

"...You have never heard his (GOD's) voice nor seen his form...(From the NIV Bible, John 5:37)"

[Theshizznigg]

Sweet, sweet Jesus, so humble even to the last.
Yes only God knows when he's a gonna rip open the bowels of hell and give it the universes first planetoid enema.

Seriously, why worry about the end of the world. Leave that to the JW's.
Just live life, enjoy Christ's friendship, for he said he would take care of those who believed in him.

[Whifflingpin]

Amra, you said that Jesus "never claimed to do ANY of the miracles on his behalf, or through his own doing." I found enough examples, in about ten minutes of looking through the gospels, to show that statement to be false.

Quoting other texts does not make your statement true. I think that there are many texts throughout the gospels that are apparent or real contradictions, and anyone must decide for himself which, if any, are true and then make the best sense possible of the rest. But, when you make statements that are easily shown to be incorrect, then you undermine your own credibility.
.

[Amra]

I think that there are many texts throughout the gospels that are apparent or real contradictions, and anyone must decide for himself which, if any, are true and then make the best sense possible of the rest.

If you can live with this, then there is nothing for me to say. I would certainly doubt my whole religion if I believed that even ONE letter from the holy Qur'an was not true, or that it was in contradiction to something else. That would be a clear proof that it didn't come from God, because God doesn't contradict himself, nor does He make mistakes.

[Whifflingpin]

"If you can live with this, then there is nothing for me to say. I would certainly doubt my whole religion if I believed that even ONE letter from the holy Qur'an was not true, or that it was in contradiction to something else. That would be a clear proof that it didn't come from God, because God doesn't contradict himself, nor does He make mistakes."

I could not only live with it, but also I could rejoice in it. An element of doubt is something that I consider necessary, in holding to a religion. Any religious text, Koran included, may come from God, but has passed through the fallible mind and hand of man. It is, amongst other ways, through the apparent contradictions that God speaks to each individual.

.

[hera-on-earth]

If i may take the liberty to say a lot of things....
first and foremost: it is the most useless argument to try and prove who is right, all in the name of Allah and Jesus! i feel there is this ego at play!

I am a Muslim (from INDIA). I belong to the Bohra community of Muslims, which is a sect of Shiites. I went to a Convent school and was very close to a teacher of mine who also played the role of a spiritual guide to me. I know quite a lot about Islam as well as Christianity. All my life I have had friends from many-many communities. U see, India is a secular country supporting many religions. So we have Hindus, Muslims,Christians, Buddhists, Jains, etc...

I have lived with all of them without ever thinking who's religion is better or which one is lying and which is not! I think everyone is free to follow whichever Holy Text they want. In my graduation course, I once had to study the Bible(Old+New Testament). Im obliged to say that the Old Testament (till Moses) is common to both Quran and Bible. The Quran also talks about Jesus Christ....after all he is also sent by Allah before Muhammad the Prophet!

So what is the big question about who is right and who is not? This question never occurred to me or all my family members or all my friends!!! Infact we all are extremely accommodating and strive to know each one's religious ideas the better!!!

U may decide.

[bhekti]

..... because God doesn't contradict himself, nor does He make mistakes.


Agree.

Contradiction is a form of comprehension. It's a conclusion, resulted from a reading. Now reading is a signification process. When we are reading, we are signifying the signs we are taking from the pages in front us. Our signification is directed by our textual repertory stored in our mind (also called "worldview" or "paradigm"). Contradiction becomes our conclusion when our textual repertory limit our logic to find a connection between the two contradicting propositions. Thus, we call this case as "illogical". However, since textual repertory is personal in nature, conclusions are therefore subjective in character.

Therefore, you can always pick some verses and say "it's contradictory" when I say "it's not contradictory at all", and we will continue "discussing" that way until my tongue stiffen

[Amra]

An element of doubt is something that I consider necessary, in holding to a religion.

I disagree.


Any religious text, Koran included, may come from God, but has passed through the fallible mind and hand of man.

That is not the belief muslims have. We do not accept the fact that the holy Quran has passed through the "fallible mind and hand of man", because it is believed to be the unchanged Word of God simply put down on paper, and because God Himself promised in the holy Qur'an that it will not be changed, our belief is based on that.


It is, amongst other ways, through the apparent contradictions that God speaks to each individual.

What is this supposed to mean?

[miss tenderness]

I can't but say PRAVO Amra you really makes sense , I liked how you were so clear ,exact ,direct and to the heart of the point. No offence Whifflingpin ! Amra does really make sense man. :thumbs_up

[mcrane]

Hey Guys,
I hope im not interrupting. This is to clear some misunderstanding and to throw in my humble opinion.
firstly:


That is not the belief muslims have. We do not accept the fact that the holy Quran has passed through the "fallible mind and hand of man", because it is believed to be the unchanged Word of God simply put down on paper, and because God Himself promised in the holy Qur'an that it will not be changed, our belief is based on that.


Well, Amra, I am sorry to disappoint you, but just because Muslims "do not accept" is not enough. Really! No disrespect of course. But what your belief is and what you regard as acceptable does not really make a valid arguement on its own.

And God's promise IN the Quran is also not enough proof, because even the verse containing that promise could have been manipulated or entirely made up. Sorry, but it is true!


Let me, if u will, give what i think is a sound arguement. Me introducing this arguement, however, does not mean that i agree to what you're saying.

All verses of the Quran were collected (from Mecca's stones and MANY of the prophet's compantions who memorized the Quran) and written during the rule of Omar Ibn Al-Khattab (2nd rightly guided Caliph) and they were kept in his daughter's custody.
In the rule of Othman Ibn Affan, it was known that other "versions" of the Quran were being distributed in non-Arab Islamic cities and in garrison cities. All of these were then collected, brought to Madina and burnt and ever since, the Quran has been saved and standardized.

[Amra]

All verses of the Quran were collected (from Mecca's stones and MANY of the prophet's compantions who memorized the Quran) and written during the rule of Omar Ibn Al-Khattab (2nd rightly guided Caliph) and they were kept in his daughter's custody.

We had a discussion about this already. It is somewhere on this forum, so I don't feel like repeating myself. The holy Qur'an was memorized during the life of Prophet a.s, and it was also written down during his time, not compiled in one book, but as the verses were revealed they were also written down. When it was finally decided that it should be put down on paper, for every ayat/verse in the holy Qur'an three people who had memorized it had to recite it independently, so that it could be confirmed that it was correct. The different versions that you are referring to were only different in the way they were written down, because the arabic language has seven dialects, and when you pronounce something differently, it is written down differently. To avoid confusion, it was decided that it should be recorded in the Quraish dialect, the most prominent one, and the one Prophet Mohammed a.s spoke. The other ones were burnt, and that was the end of it. There are hadiths confirming all this, but you can find them in the other topics we had, because I don't have the time to research them again. Every historian confirms the authenticity of the holy Qur'an, and that it WAS NOT changed in the slightest way, from the time it was reveald to the time it was written down until today.

The holy Qur'an is protected in various ways, from the way the ayats are arranged, to the flow that it has, to the mathematical mirracle that would collapse if you would even take out one single letter from it. All that combined confirms God's promise that it will indeed be protected, as His last revelation to human kind, until the Judgment Day.

[mcrane]

[QUOTE=Amra]Every historian confirms the authenticity of the holy Qur'an, and that it WAS NOT changed in the slightest way, from the time it was reveald to the time it was written down until today.
QUOTE]

ture.. well.. i agree..
Sources agree that the Quran was not changed since its revelation.

I was actually trying to argue for your view not against it so let's not get defensive ;)

The one point i was trying to make is that u need to make logically sound arguement. You, with ur belief in God, will never question what u "believe" he/she/it says. In order to convince an athiest, however, dont u think u might need a little more than "God promised"??

if u want to prove something wrong u need a different strategy than just EXPLAINING ur view.

of course if ur an incredibly charming young lady u might get away with it! But let's consider the general case ;)

[Mililalil XXIV]

What about these verses?

Mark 10:18 Jesus said “And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"

John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"

Matthew 24:36 Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

"By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. (From the NIV Bible, John 5:30)"

"...You have never heard his (GOD's) voice nor seen his form...(From the NIV Bible, John 5:37)"

Mark 10:18
HE didn't want to be considered only a good teacher, but considered it an insult for one praising his virtue to at the same time ignore HIS DEITY.

John 5:30
In HIS capacity as MEDIATOR between GOD and man, HE made HIMSELF a MODEL for us to immitate, to reunite us to GOD.

John 8:28
In HIS Missionary Role, as the LOGOS expressing GOD, HE lived from the FATHER - that was what HIS SON-Ship subsisted of.

John 14:28
As MAN HE said that the FATHER is not better but greater. Having emptied HIMSELF, HE had set HIS Grandeure aside.

Matthew 24:36
Here, speaking from a Divine Perspective, HE says not, "Not even I know", but, "nor the SON ". Though not all manuscripts have this in them.