Bible: Divine Foreknowledge / Free Will POLL

[ThatIndividual]

Ok, folks, here we are... This is mainly for the Christians. Therefore, I've included only two options.

[subterranean]

Salvation is not a posibility to all, it is a gift to all. You don't choose to be save. Jesus' death was to save everyone. The key is to believe it or not that you have been saved by His death.

[Psycheinaboat]

There are some branches of Christianity that believe that everyone who will be saved have already been chosen to be saved. The Jehovah Witnesses, for example, believe that only a certain number of people will be in Heaven, and God already knows who those people are.

Some Christians do not recognize the JW as a Christian body, but there are other more mainstream protestant groups that believe similarly.

In a similar vein of thought, what do you think of the possibility of back-sliding? Some Christians teach that once you are saved you are always saved or you were never really saved to begin with. So, you may be saved but just not practicing the faith anymore or you were never truly saved at all.

[subterranean]

I think this is related to responsibility. There are stories in the Bible in regards to responsibility as person who already saved and know the truth, like the story of ungrateful servants or 5 foolish girls and 5 clever girls.
Well, that's just IMO as I already mention several times, I'm not an expert on this.




In a similar vein of thought, what do you think of the possibility of back-sliding? Some Christians teach that once you are saved you are always saved or you were never really saved to begin with. So, you may be saved but just not practicing the faith anymore or you were never truly saved at all.

[ThatIndividual]

SubT... Well, if you want to say that salvation is a gift to all, the same question remains. If it is based on whether or not a person believes, then I ask, is every person capable of that belief? or are only the prechosen believers capable of believing?

[okmit]

You have a free will and can choose.As for Divine foreknowledge,I believe He is to Judge on Judgement day.Hmm?

And if I may respond to the question,"is every person capable of that belief?"Yes they are.It is a matter of acceptance.

[Adelheid]

I believe that Salvation is freely given to all man. It is up to them to decide. "Fate" as you term it, cannot choose a person's destiny. Every individual has their own choices to make in life.

If one says that fate decides your salvation and whether or not you can believe, then every pastor and co-worker and missionary is wasting their lives. I would be wasting my time sharing the gospel to people if it were true that salvation is predestined.

There are no "prechosen" believers. All can believe if they want to, if they will themsleves to accept it, it is possible. How then can thousands (possibly millions) of people believe in the Theory of Evolution? Besides, God will reveal his Word to those who ask for it, to those who choose to believe.

Ask God to help your unbelief, as the Father of a demon-possessed boy once did to Jesus.


"Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things [are] possible to him that believeth. And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." Mark 9:23-24

[Pendragon]

There are some branches of Christianity that believe that everyone who will be saved have already been chosen to be saved. The Jehovah Witnesses, for example, believe that only a certain number of people will be in Heaven, and God already knows who those people are.

Some Christians do not recognize the JW as a Christian body, but there are other more mainstream protestant groups that believe similarly.

In a similar vein of thought, what do you think of the possibility of back-sliding? Some Christians teach that once you are saved you are always saved or you were never really saved to begin with. So, you may be saved but just not practicing the faith anymore or you were never truly saved at all.To truly believe "once saved, always saved" would be to deny Ezekiel 18 and 33. Yet I do not believe that He truly saves you to lose you. He'll come after you like the parable of the Shepherd with the 99 sheep in the fold and 1 astray. If you won't listen to Him, however....http://www.websmileys.com/sm/sad/1004.gif

[ThatIndividual]

Question for Okmit and Adelheid:

What then, are your views on the Bible? Is it the inerrant word of God?

[Thork]

Here's an interesting article that trys to persuade you to believe in a higher power...
http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

However it does not exactly answer the question if it is wise to not believe in god(s) (form a certain point of view of the article). From my perspective, it is illogical to not beileve in god when looking at it in the form of an equation. On average, a North American will live to the ripe old age of 79-87 (ish). You can risk denying god for those 80 years and take a chance at wether or not the soul (if there is one) transcends or descends *(Heaven | Hell) It makes sense to have (at the very least) some type of religious practice consistently throughout this mortal life in the chance that yes, there is a god, and yes without believing in Him (Jesus) in him now, you will be doomed to spend eternity in, what in most religons describe as, an ocean of violent fire and lighting.

[Countess]

Both are true so I cannot chose one or the other.

Here is the reasoning. I credit John Piper for bringing this to light.

1) Any and all humans who chose to accept God will be saved.
2) Without the power of the Holy Spirit in the act of redemption, man is totally depraved and cannot see God.

So, we have regeneration (rebirth) that is credited to the Holy Spirit.
We have repentance, which is choice and credited to man.
We have faith, which is credited to God and works *in concert* with the Holy Spirit in the process we call sanctificaiton.

[ThatIndividual]

Countess, I do understand that point of view quite clearly. The problem is that according to the Bible, God created some men UNABLE to make the choice to which you (and Josh Piper) refer, that is, your point #1.

If you choose the gift of salvation, fine... The point is that some people are made without the choice to choose, or so says the holy scripture.

[ThatIndividual]

Bear in mind that John Piper is a Calvinist. He agrees with the reading of the Bible that I'm addressing.

[PerAnnum]

Ok... so, I think I've said this once or twice before... but I think that we ALL have our free will. I know a lot of people think that they have an open mind when they close their hearts to Jesus and/or Christianity. But I think that is just a tactic of the enemy and these open minded people are actually closed to all areas of truth in the supernatural relm. **I know I'm going to get some heat for this one. :) BUt I don't mind.
And I think that when the bible says things about God knowing us before we were born and planning our lives before the foundation of the earth, and all the stuff Calvanists base their beliefs on, it's just showing us how God is not in time like we are. We can only see what is now... in the present. We can understand, somewhat, types and shadows... and then sometimes we have prophecies which defy the present, and we can only remember bits and peices of the past. But God sees it all at once. The past present and the future as if it were right there. WE can't understand that because we have finite minds, but God is a spiritual being, living in eternity like our spirits do even now. There is not time, therefore, of course God would know who was going to heaven or hell, or who would choose to be saved, but that doesn't mean he controles our every movement, unless we LET HIm be in control. ANd that's what I think... I don't want to bore you any more with details.

[ThatIndividual]

PerAnnum,
I was all too certain that your argument was going to cite the atemporality of God. While specious it certainly is, the reason that that argument doesn't hold any water is quite simple. God is not situated in time, sure I'll give you that. But we are. And if we were formed a certain way, predisposed to a certain way of thinking already before we're formed in the womb (as the Bible asserts that we are) then it doesn't matter when God did it, or if the word when can even apply to God's action. The point is that we are already made and that the predestination spoken of in the scripture applies to us as beings in time, before we are even born.