Marx on Religion

[ThatIndividual]

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions."
--Karl Marx, Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right

Ok, friends... Discuss.

[starrwriter]

Voting is the opium of the masses. It gives people the illusion that they are in control of what happens to them in society.

Here comes the new boss
Same as the old boss
Don't get fooled again
--The Who

[ThatIndividual]

I'm in complete agreement about voting, but I wonder, have you an aversion to academic conversation concerning religion, as do many? Or perhaps you've seen through this quote to its political heart? If that be the case, do you mean to say that voting has taken the place of religion as the opiate of the masses?

[starrwriter]

I'm in complete agreement about voting, but I wonder, have you an aversion to academic conversation concerning religion, as do many?
Sort of. Like oil and water, rational discussion and religion don't mix very well.


do you mean to say that voting has taken the place of religion as the opiate of the masses?
Along with other obsessions, including real drugs. Opiates are also the opiates of many people.

[B-Mental]

...but I wonder, have you an aversion to academic conversation concerning religion, as do many?

Thats where the Trolls live? Trolls, yikes, I'm getting outta here!

[ThatIndividual]

LOL, that's funny. I agree totally. However, to be serious about it, I don't agree. Perhaps when you're dealing with some evangelist that may be the case, but I think under usual circumstances, an academic discussion of religion is the only thing that's going to save us.

We need to talk about it.

[Zippy]

I've heard the 'religion is the opium of the people' quote before but never what comes before and after - it's interesting to see it in full.

It seems to me that Marx's argument - "[Religion is the] heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation" - actually places religion in a favourable light. It may be an 'illusion', but it can get people through some difficult times in their lives and, to an extent, make the world a better place.

[starrwriter]

It seems to me that Marx's argument - "[Religion is the] heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation" - actually places religion in a favourable light. It may be an 'illusion', but it can get people through some difficult times in their lives and, to an extent, make the world a better place.
Russian novelist Fyodor Dostoevsky came to a similar conclusion after he was nearly executed by the Tsarist government. He had been arrested on largely trumped up charges of revolutionary activity and sentenced to death by firing squad. At the last second, while he stood in front of the firing squad, his sentence was commuted to exile in Siberia.

After that experience, Dostoevsky's intellectual contempt for religion sort of vanished. Suddenly, he thought it was a good idea for most people in order to maintain social order. He wasn't necessarily religious himself -- he was a gambler and drinker -- but he felt religion was an effective moral police for the masses.

[subterranean]

There's more that Marx thought on religion, however many people just take the quote plain and simple as a form of condemnation towards religion.

More on religion according to Marx:


... Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower. The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun. .

[ThatIndividual]

Zippy, excellent point! The quote is not so much a critique of religion as it is really a critique of a society in which religion is necessary. "The heart of a heartless world." As it turns out, religions is not really the sickness, but in fact, a symptom ( and quite a nasty symptom at that -- this is my observation ) of a sickness that causes people to be alienated from their own human existence.

Throughout the history of civilization, the ruling class has handed religion to the slave class as a sort of distraction, and in effect, compensation since they couldn't be happy with life.

[Union Jack]

I too am dubious about the reasons behind religion. Carl Marx stated that religion was “the opiate of the masses.” In short, religion appears in society in order to maintain the status quo and pacify the less fortunate “masses.”

Basic beliefs throughout all religions seem to deal with what, and what not to do, which happen to fall in line with society’s expectations from people. Preaching pacifism, or that good things will come to those who wait, endure your current hardships, you will be rewarded in the “afterlife.” Others say that it is a result of actions made in your previous lives that you have attained your current social standing, and the only way to ascend higher is to live a “moral” life and ascend in the next.

In summary, I believe that religion is in place to pacify the restless masses that are trapped in a poorer quality of life and seek escape. People need some reason to be content with their otherwise torturous, and in many instances inconsequential, lives. Established by a ruling elite, religion serves to control the multitudes of less fortunate people, who might otherwise seek to better their status, and thus displace the aristocracy.

Of course, if religion turns out to be based on true divinity, then I am a damned fool. :D
This has relevance here.

[ThatIndividual]

What a wonderful point. I admire nothing more that one who remains absolutely skeptical. Most people who take the non-believer stance are far too self-assured therein. Truly, no one knows. Maybe that guy did walk on water and rise from the dead and all that... In which case, most of us "thinkers" or "academics" or whatever are screwed. (I'm still not going to place my bet on it. Because after all, what is faith but a guess that is not without consequence, and therefore, a wager of sorts.)

when it comes down to it, the only true Christian is one who admits that perhaps there isn't any objective truth to Christianity. This is the meat and potatoes of the story of Abraham. He put the knife to the throat of Isaac "with fear and trembling." Most of today's Christians would have us believe that they have no doubt whatsoever, and thus, having not subject their own beliefs to adequate scrutiny, only believe in their self-satisfied slumber, so to speak.

Absolute skepticism, no matter which decision we make regarding our beliefs, that is, whether we place our faith in religion or not, is the only honest philosophy.

To say something like " I KNOW Christ is God and I KNOW that there is a Heaven and a Hell and a Devil," etc. is simple and blatant dishonesty. Either this person is dishonest with him or herself, or dishonest with others. Truth be told, no one knows.

[starrwriter]

Maybe that guy did walk on water and rise from the dead and all that... In which case, most of us "thinkers" or "academics" or whatever are screwed ...
I don't care whether Jesus walked on water or rose from the dead and I certainly won't be screwed if it's true. The world is full of magic tricks, spoon-benders, voodoo, UFO abduction claims, etc. that have no effect on me.

However, I agree with you that skepticism toward religion is a healthy attitude. It's also inevitable if you accept the scientific explanation of reality. That's why there is battle over evolution versus creationism in schools.

[ThatIndividual]

Starrwriter, obviously I meant to imply that it's entirely possible, (however unlikely, however absurd!) that Jesus Christ was in fact God incarnate. It's even possible, though even less likely, no doubt, that the Bible is the Truth speaking to us. Magic tricks or not, the point was that it's possible that when we die, if we are without faith in Christian doctrine, we may be subject to eternal punishment.

I know, I know... I just want you to understand the point that I was making. (Because obviously people do tricks, but I was referring to the supposed divinity of that guy from Galilee that made such an impact on the world for some reason).

[ThatIndividual]

Well... I wouldn't say that that's why there is a battle over creationism vs. evolution in schools. I think that has less to do with skepticism and more to do with blind faith, money, and power. The religious zealots still account for a hefty proportion of voters in this country, and the Christian Coalition is the wealthiest and most active special interest group. They push for creationism because they feel like evolution threatens the validity of their scripture and therefore, their foundation of faith. It's a sad thing... :brickwall

[starrwriter]

Starrwriter, obviously I meant to imply that it's entirely possible, (however unlikely, however absurd!) that Jesus Christ was in fact God incarnate. It's even possible, though even less likely, no doubt, that the Bible is the Truth speaking to us. Magic tricks or not, the point was that it's possible that when we die, if we are without faith in Christian doctrine, we may be subject to eternal punishment.
I understand your point, but I'm not preparing myself to go to hell after I die. I presume you aren't, either.

[ThatIndividual]

Quite right, sir. Quite right, indeed. Because there is no hell. :)

[starrwriter]

Because there is no hell.
Except the one created occasionally right here on earth, usually by religious fanatics.

[ThatIndividual]

Excellent point, friend. Excellent point.

[PerAnnum]

isn't[/I] any objective truth to Christianity. This is the meat and potatoes of the story of Abraham. He put the knife to the throat of Isaac "with fear and trembling." Most of today's Christians would have us believe that they have no doubt whatsoever, and thus, having not subject their own beliefs to adequate scrutiny, only believe in their self-satisfied slumber, so to speak.


.... True, a closed mind is a dangerous mind... that I will agree with... but can you say that most Christians have not "subjected their own beliefs to adequate scrutiny..." ??? And what is adequate scrutiny, I might ask?



knows.[/I]

But to say that someone is wrong for knowing in their bones... even with the possabilities of being totally wrong... isn't that a little harsh? Is this not what we have so looked up to in History? People are heros when they stick by what they believe... and don't look back. Whether in religion or elsewhere... don't we long for someone to stand up to what others say is impossible? I know in my bones that Jesus is Lord, and the the Holy Spirit guides me, and that I'm going to Heaven... becuase I have a relationship with God the Father.... I know He is real, and that He loves me, and that He loves you. And, no, we'll never understand it all in this life... but I would say that I know.. and I am still a true Christian... even under the threat of being proved wrong... I'll risk that. And here I put a knife to my own throught, with fear and trembling... knowing that my God is the one true God. Because what kind of Christian, nay, what kind of person would I be if I didn't say so.

[PerAnnum]

It's just as crazy not to believe in it as it is TO believe in it... don't you think? Isn't that what this whole discussion is about? The fact that we're all wondering what the heck is going on here, and why the heck this world is even here... why we're even here. That's why this life can be so dang annoying. All the big words and big ideas won't help us figure it out... won't help YOU figure it out. You're just gonna keep going around in circles all your life wondering and being skeptical of everything that comes along. Why think anymore? Why waste your time trying to figure it out?? Why not just live life to the fullest and flush all the philosophy down the toilet??

[starrwriter]

.... True, a closed mind is a dangerous mind... that I will agree with... but can you say that most Christians have not "subjected their own beliefs to adequate scrutiny..." ???
Yes.


And what is adequate scrutiny, I might ask?
Rational analysis, historical perspective, intelligence, common sense, etc. What people believe to be true on faith is one thing. What they know is true is based on logic, the scientific method and a healthy degree of skepticism.

I don't care what anyone "believes," but it bothers me when they claim their beliefs are the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It's tunnel vision.

[PerAnnum]

Rational analysis, historical perspective, intelligence, common sense, etc. What people believe to be true on faith is one thing. What they know is true is based on logic, the scientific method and a healthy degree of skepticism.

I don't care what anyone "believes," but it bothers me when they claim their beliefs are the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It's tunnel vision.

But when you bring in logic, you also bring in the imperfect human mind. In essence, logic is illogical... same with common sense.... it's common... I thought we were trying to break a mold here... not make it stronger. Rational analysis is still not good enough, because, I'll admit it, Christianity is irrational... that's one thing that makes it so great :) . Jesus even said that the foolish will confound the wise. Historical perspective says that Jesus was a real man, and that extraordinary things DID happen. The scientific method is also still imperfect... we can't even explain what happened to the dinosaurs with sience... and you want to prove there is or isn't a God? And skepticism is basically paranoia... is it not? And intelligence... well, not all of us have our fair share ;)
I'm not saying you're wrong for asking questions, but isn't your mind just as closed when you say that it's impossible for there to be a heaven or hell, or God? Or that it's impossible for Jesus to be God incarnate and walk on water and heal people and what-not? But it's okay... I don't blame you. It's not like God made it easy for us to believe in Him or anything. It just takes believing... which is scary for me sometimes.

[starrwriter]

But when you bring in logic, you also bring in the imperfect human mind.
The human mind and logic may be imperfect, but they are the best tools we have for interpreting reality. Emotions, wish fulfillment, etc. are the worst tools.


In essence, logic is illogical...
By definition, logic is NOT illogical.


Historical perspective says that Jesus was a real man, and that extraordinary things DID happen.
There is historical proof that Jesus did exist, but his "miracles" are a matter of faith, not fact.


The scientific method is also still imperfect... we can't even explain what happened to the dinosaurs with science...
Sure we can. Very convincing evidence has been gathered by scientists in the last few decades that an asteroid impact near Mexico 65 million years ago caused the extinction of the dinosaurs and 70% of all other species of life.



And skepticism is basically paranoia... is it not?
No. Skepticism keeps people from believing hucksters and charlatans. That's not paranoia, it's good sense.


I'm not saying you're wrong for asking questions, but isn't your mind just as closed when you say that it's impossible for there to be a heaven or hell, or God?
I don't happen to believe in the Christian God you believe in, but that isn't the same as having no spirituality at all. I put my faith in nature. Whatever is natural is sacred to me. The worship of nature is much older than Christianity or any other religion in the world today. As far as I'm concerned, our ancient ancestors got it right the first time.

[ThatIndividual]

Perannum, please note, I DID NOT SAY THAT SOMEONE IS 'WRONG' WHO FEELS THAT THEY 'KNOW IN THEIR BONES.' What I said is that, someone who feels that they "know" but will not admit that they ARE perhaps WRONG is under a certain degree, in fact a large degree, of self-deception. I've no problem with the "I feel it in my bones argument" because I too will admit the imperfections in logic. Its a closed system. Existence/Reality is not. However, it must be remembered that one can not KNOW in ones bones with the same certainty that one can KNOW in ones mind, because quite frankly, thanks to our Creator, our THINKING MECHANISMS are VERY MUCH NOT SITUATED IN OUR BONES. :)

As far as your direct comments to ME... that is,

"That's why this life can be so dang annoying. All the big words and big ideas won't help us figure it out... won't help YOU figure it out. You're just gonna keep going around in circles all your life wondering and being skeptical of everything that comes along. Why think anymore? Why waste your time trying to figure it out?? Why not just live life to the fullest and flush all the philosophy down the toilet??""

Allow me to defend my views of life. Firstly, what are you trying to figure out? I'm perfectly content not knowing. I'm comfortable, in fact, even happier that I don't know. If someone did have the answer, I wouldn't want it. HOW BORING LIFE WOULD BE WERE THE PURSUIT OF TRUTH TO END!! No indeed, I'd rather maintain my sense of wonderment. (And big words are of no matter, we both know that.) You seem to be offended. Obviously, a nerve of yours (or two) has been touched. Why? Why so quickly threatened? Perhaps you wouldn't be comfortable NOT knowing... Perhaps, if your DIVINE ANSWER were taken from you, you would "run around in circles looking for an answer." Would you be lost? Is the weight of existence too heavy a burden to bear without someone else to explain for you the meaning thereof?

As far as "wasting time trying to figure it out," who is wasting anything? I'm living. I'm eating food, breathing air, making love, reading literature, writing poetry, getting involved in politics, drinking alcohol, MAKING MY OWN CHOICES BASED ON MY OWN MORAL DELIBERATION, exploring... Exploring! I'm loving life! And you know what?
ITS THIS WORLD THAT I LOVE!!! This CERTAIN world before us! If there IS any one true sin, it's to CURSE this existence, this DIVINE and beauteous miracle that is our life on earth!!! Why look to another world??? Heaven is all around us, friend!!! This IS heaven!!

Oh, joy of joys!! Oh blessed blessedness!! Thank God for THIS world and for THIS life!!! If I'm ever born again, if ever there is another life after death, I pray only that it's LIKE THIS LIFE THAT I NOW LIVE.

If you don't feel the same way about your life, the only thing I can in good conscience suggest is that you throw off whatever shackles bind you and make the necessary changes. Make your own choices. Be sovereign. Be man.

[ThatIndividual]

Please also note: I say this with the utmost respect for your beliefs. I do not mean to alienate you from me, or vice versa. I love all people and wish to quarrel with no one. This can be a touchy subject, we all know that. No offense intended though. No hard feelings. (I mean after all, you may in fact be right about the whole Jesus thing. I know that.)

[PerAnnum]

Thanx. And, for what it's worth... you could also be right. Which is what's so wonderful about it all.... we risk it all. To me, that's exciting.

:) And now... for the explination of my "toilet" remark. I said all that to make a point. I don't want to quit the persuit of truth any more than you do. I was trying to make the point that, in a way, we are in the exact same fight... just with different "weapons". You want to know what the truth is. SO DO I. No, I am not content. But I am only 20, so if I were content with life right now it would be a sad thing. Not to say that I hate life, however... I love the life God has given me and I wouldn't trade it for the world... or heaven right now. I agree that the human life would be completely boring without the ability to ask questions. I am certainly not going to let myself be a "dead fish" floating down stream. I prefere to be the salmon who fights it's bloody battle up stream, no matter how much it hurts.
Honestly, I did feel myself getting a little offensive at first... but I tried not to let it influence anything I said. When I felt myself getting offensive, I had to check my motives... and they were to be right. I have a lot to learn... and I am sorry if I said anything out of line... but I am not sorry I tried to prove a point. I hope I have done that successfully. I am no theologian, nor do a claim to be a scholar or philosopher.
And I am not offended. :) I actually enjoy these discussions.

[Martha Q]

Voting is the opium of the masses?????creates an illusion?
so we shouldn't vote because its all an illusion......the greatest thing created by man in ancient greece is now just an illusion? as citizens we have the duty to vote and care for the society in which we live in ..there is no illusion...most peolple know there's a lot of crap "up there".. its up to us to stop being the audience.

[starrwriter]

Voting is the opium of the masses?????creates an illusion?
so we shouldn't vote because its all an illusion......the greatest thing created by man in ancient greece is now just an illusion? as citizens we have the duty to vote and care for the society in which we live in ..there is no illusion...most peolple know there's a lot of crap "up there".. its up to us to stop being the audience.
(1)In ancient Greece there were 2 slaves for every citizen and slaves couldn't vote.
(2)Voting can only change the public figureheads, not the people who actually run our country. And the candidate choice is always between Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee.
(3)Revolution is the only way to stop being the audience (victim).

[subterranean]

(3)Revolution is the only way to stop being the audience (victim).


I always think that it's just tool of role playing. A circle. There's always victim to some extent.

[Martha Q]

the first step to take for society to change is being aware citizens...that includes voting..............revolution yes but first one must try and insert the hand in the glove..

[Psycheinaboat]

I agree with Sub that there is always a victim; there is always a needy or lesser caste in any social structure.

Also, to start a revolution you need to upset social harmony. This always leads to revolution, which always leads to bloodshed; a new society emerges and while the problems may be different, they are still problems.

I agree to an extent about the mockery of voting. How many impoverished candidates do you see running as opposed to all the senators’ sons and wealthy lawyers who fill the rosters each year. At some point, perhaps in the very beginning, the common folk lost control.

I still do vote, though.

[Squigy]

I have al ways believed religion to be a matter of faith, and that faith in a higher power comes when you start to lose faith in what previously gave you strength (ie your intellect, parents, idols, ideals)
Personally I am incredibly suspicious of the voting system and believe that even you decision between tweetl de and tweetl dum is not entirely your own also my favourite writer is George Orwell so I don’t really have faith in revelations either.
To be honest I don’t really believe in anything, politics is terribly impersonal nowadays and thinking about it so is pretty much everything else. All I care about is if this is an illusion or a game or something that I’m happy.

[cuppajoe_9]

Voting is of the utmost importance, not because anything would be better if everyone voted, but because everything would be worse if no one did.

[Broken]

While your statement is true, it does not seem to disprove the claim that voting is a sort of opiate for the masses. Although society would most certainly evolve if people ceased voting altogether, society changes only little for all the voting of the people.

Voting serves primarily to assure citizens that they are connected to the actions of their government in some sense, but only a select few men and women actually change those actions.

That's just my two cents, and thanks for bringing this post back to the top. I'll be interested to see any further discussions on the religious aspect of this topic.

[cuppajoe_9]

I completely agree that voting is opium, but if we stopped doing it, it would be bad (at least until after the revolution). I vote, rather futilely, for the NDP.

As to religion: I think the reason that it has done it's job so effectively up until now is that it promises all the believers all kinds of rewards in the afterlife.

Peasant: All the rest of the peasants and myself are starving.
King: Tough.
Peasant: How about if we get together and kill you and all your friends?
King: ...No, don't do that.
Peasant: Why not?
King: Umm....because...because that guy over there (gestures at crucifix) says that all you have to do if follow these Ten Commandments and you get all sorts of goodies in heaven once you die.
Peasant: Really? What kind of commandments?
King: The gist of it is that you aren't allowed to kill me. Oh, and do whatever I tell you.
Peasant: So let me get this straight: I'm supposed to live my life in servitude to you...
King: Mmhmm.
Peasant: ...and follow the commands of a dead guy...
King: Yep.
Peasant: ...because if I do, I will be rewarded after I die...
King: That's right.
Peasant: ...after I die, most likely as a result of your refusal to give me food.
King: Well...more or less.
Peasant: Good thing for you I'm extremely poorly educated.
King: Yeah, good thing.

[rabid reader]

Marx, born a Jew convert to Christianity was no stranger to reilgion and its control on our daily lives. What I think Marx was trying to say is that organized religion clouds our judgement, faith however is not assualted at all in this argument. The religion, the structure those who profit from others faith by telling them what to think without regard to cercumstance, thats the opium, thats what is what clouds people reason and keeps them from seeing what will truely make them happy. At leastr that's my inturpertation of his meaning.