The need to believe.

[Nightshade]

Ive believed for a long time that everybody has a need to believe in somthing greater than themselves weather (wrong one I know) God, humanity, science, th power of nature, money or world order.
And I was just wondering if anyone else thought so too? and if they do is there any other than a God-reason for this?

Nightshade

[Pendragon]

I think that man has an inherent need to believe in something greater than himself. This doesn't have to have a "God-explaination", although I believe that that is really what man is searching for. Man looks about at his fellow man, and whether or no he will notice it in himself, or admit that he is the same, sees the inperfection of humanity. Man wishes to be free from inperfection. Therefore man is always looking for that perfection in some form or another. It is what has driven the idealology of a super-race, free from any defects. Some look to God, some to science, some to who-knows-what as a means of leaving imperfection behind.

[subterranean]

I think you have answered it Night...Other than God or other supranatural beings, people put high hopes/belief in science, nature, humanity, etc. I think this is the thing that keeps someone to move on, live everyday, work, create, etc...

I think it's the thing that moves the world


Ive believed for a long time that everybody has a need to believe in somthing greater than themselves weather (wrong one I know) God, humanity, science, th power of nature, money or world order.
And I was just wondering if anyone else thought so too? and if they do is there any other than a God-reason for this?

Nightshade

[DTrent]

Actually, we were created with the need & desire to worship. It's inherent in ourselves. When man deviates from worshipping his Creator, he gets what we have on earth right now - chaos, war, inhumanity to man & beast.
When man returns to worship of his Creator, he finds peace within himself & amongst his brothers & with his Creator...

[bugmasta]

I would like to point out to DTrent that many wars throughout history, including one presently being waged in the Middle East, have been caused by people who believe they are worshipping their creator. Therefore I would have to strongly disagree with the notion that worshipping your creator will prevent chaos, war and inhumanity.

[Nightshade]

[QUOTE=DTrent]Actually, we were created with the need & desire to worship. It's inherent in ourselves.QUOTE]
Thats what I meant by the God- reason
but have to agree I dont belive worship gets in the way of war and chaos and inhumanity.

[simon]

The need to believe. Seems to me that no matter who we are or what culture we come from this is true. Really nothing more need be said about this except to venture into that tenuous territory of the many different religious and philosophical pracitces attempting to provide some way to satiate this need.

[PerAnnum]

I think what DTrent was trying to say was that when we get our eyes off ourselves and on the creator, God, all things will fall away. Going deeper with this... we desire to be replaced to our original glory, the way we were created. War and chaos and what-not are the effects of sin in the human race... true worship is rarely attained, and will not be attained by everyone on the earth until Jesus comes again and we are restored to the Father... however "bogus" that might sound.
Am I wrong in saying this, DTrent? I don't want to put words in your mouth. :)

[ThatIndividual]

While we are all sharing opinions, and good ones at that, I suppose it's my turn to participate...

Have humans an inherent need to believe in a higher power? I would have to begin this by stating, quite simply, that any fact concerning human nature is out of our reach; unattainable. We find ourselves, as a species, in a situation. A given framework of existence, if you will. We are capitalists. We are free. We have democracy. On, and on, and on... We can't know human nature because we can only know humans AS EFFECTED by our certain, and very much influencial, circumstances of life.

That being said, I belive that we can still explore this question given the current circumstances. My belief is that certain humans DO in fact have a need to believe in a divine father-type being. Also, they have the same need to believe in another world, a BETTER world that is to come.

The first need, for a father-type figure, I believe is the product of a deep-seated, very childlike (no offense intended) impulse that characterizes many humans. It's simply never-never land syndrome. Some can't cope with growing up because the thought of being one's own master is frightening to some humans. The need to feel protected and looked over, by a father-type figure, a loving and powerful figure, is one that creates the drive to religious belief in many humans.

The second need, that is, the need to believe in another world, is quite simple as well. Perhaps even simpler. This one works only on those who are discontented, very discontented, with the current world in which we live. Those who are oppressed. Those who are perpetually saddened. Things of this sort... Let us also remember, that throughout history, religious institutions and political and economic institutions (the powers that be, or more simply, the ruling class) have been the SAME GROUP OF PEOPLE. When you own slaves, it's easier to keep them from revolting when you tell them something to the effect of "God says, 'the meek shall inherit the earth.'" "Blessed are the poor. Blesser are the peacemakers..." you know the rest... blah blah blah... People who are oppressed, people with repressed drives deep within the mind, suffer from a neurosis of sorts. Is turns upon itself and a common symptom thereof is this nned to protect oneself with belief in an imaginary world, a possible world, in order to shield the person from the existent world, the CERTAIN and REAL world at hand.

So, yes, people have the need to believe. Some people, that is. Not all people. We are all quite different.

[DTrent]

I would like to point out to DTrent that many wars throughout history, including one presently being waged in the Middle East, have been caused by people who believe they are worshipping their creator. Therefore I would have to strongly disagree with the notion that worshipping your creator will prevent chaos, war and inhumanity.

Bugmasta: I see what you mean. But what I meant was worship of man's Creator the way the Creator wants to be worshipped thus ridding themselves of the want for war, etc. It's already been done in the 1st century when true Christianity began. There were no Christians in the military or into politics. Christ taught his disciples to be NO PART OF THE WORLD. So they didn't involve themselves in such things but taught & lived a life of peace, knowledge, understanding & love.
That's probably another subject tho since it gets into true/false worship/religion/faith & how to tell what is & what isn't...

[DTrent]

While we are all sharing opinions, and good ones at that, I suppose it's my turn to participate...

Have humans an inherent need to believe in a higher power? I would have to begin this by stating, quite simply, that any fact concerning human nature is out of our reach; unattainable. We find ourselves, as a species, in a situation. A given framework of existence, if you will. We are capitalists. We are free. We have democracy. On, and on, and on... We can't know human nature because we can only know humans AS EFFECTED by our certain, and very much influencial, circumstances of life.

That being said, I belive that we can still explore this question given the current circumstances. My belief is that certain humans DO in fact have a need to believe in a divine father-type being. Also, they have the same need to believe in another world, a BETTER world that is to come.

The first need, for a father-type figure, I believe is the product of a deep-seated, very childlike (no offense intended) impulse that characterizes many humans. It's simply never-never land syndrome. Some can't cope with growing up because the thought of being one's own master is frightening to some humans. The need to feel protected and looked over, by a father-type figure, a loving and powerful figure, is one that creates the drive to religious belief in many humans.

The second need, that is, the need to believe in another world, is quite simple as well. Perhaps even simpler. This one works only on those who are discontented, very discontented, with the current world in which we live. Those who are oppressed. Those who are perpetually saddened. Things of this sort... Let us also remember, that throughout history, religious institutions and political and economic institutions (the powers that be, or more simply, the ruling class) have been the SAME GROUP OF PEOPLE. When you own slaves, it's easier to keep them from revolting when you tell them something to the effect of "God says, 'the meek shall inherit the earth.'" "Blessed are the poor. Blesser are the peacemakers..." you know the rest... blah blah blah... People who are oppressed, people with repressed drives deep within the mind, suffer from a neurosis of sorts. Is turns upon itself and a common symptom thereof is this nned to protect oneself with belief in an imaginary world, a possible world, in order to shield the person from the existent world, the CERTAIN and REAL world at hand.

So, yes, people have the need to believe. Some people, that is. Not all people. We are all quite different.

Whew! Well, that being said we can all see that since we humans are as we are, there's the proof or fact. It's in EVERY CULTURE AROUND THE WORLD. We all have the inherent need & ability to worship Something or Someone higher than ourselves becuz WE ALL KNOW that we are not "it". For look at our sorry state. We know there's something better becuz it's inside ourselves to want it, to need it & that comes from who?? OUR CREATOR. He put it there tho some of us will eternally deny it... ;)

[lover of jesus]

The need for worshipping God is an instinctive for every body ,our souls need to His guidance to know Him so that this God sent so many prophets for people in the past but you may say that our age has no prophet to lead us to the God. This age ""the age of science"" could be an eloquent leader to Allah through something is known as ' scientific miracles of Quran" I have posted a thread about that

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14035

And of course the aim of such scientific miracles is to inform the people that this Holy Book which was reveled to Muhammed" peace be upon him" was not written by man but it is the revelation from God who knows the past the present the future and what is happening in the far galaxies and what is happens the smallest part of our bodies ""cell"
Just for you and to believe in His Almighty and oneness
And to be sure of His mercy that He gives all these signs to know Him
All regards for you

[Miss Darcy]

Interesting thread.

I think I see what Nightshade means, especially as regards to putting faith in something, whether it be religion, science, humankind in general, sport...anything. And I believe she's right. However, I don't think the "faith" spoken of here necessarily has to be a religious faith...


The need for worshipping God is an instinctive for every body

No, human beings can put faith in anything. You can, for instance, put faith in love - in love for humankind in general. This kind of "faith" doesn't necessarily have to be religious...we just need to believe in something, that something is worthwhile, or good, or someone is honest, or all humans are really good inside, or...anything!

But perhaps there are people who don't even really require faith in others or in anything. I think, though, that a person doesn't believe in anything at all - someone who doesn't believe in any goodness, who sees nothing beautiful in this world...surely that person can't lead a very happy life? I don't know, as I have never experienced that...or maybe I have; sometimes when one is depressed one doesn't see any reason to go on, and loses faith in oneself. I think it is very important to believe in yourself - not egoistically, just to believe that you are good and can do {virtually} anything.

*I think I've diverged from the original topic quite enough now.*

Ou revoir,

Darcy

[ThatIndividual]

Good point... So if we all have faith in something, how about everyone answer this question... In what do you place your faith? (I don't mind going first.) My faith is in love.

[Pendragon]

In the end, when you have sifted out all the garbage, and boiled away all the impurities, it comes down to Charity I Corinthians 13, which is love..but love must be unfeigned (not a put-on) Perfect Love, that's where I put my faith. :angel:

[ThatIndividual]

As we all know, Pendragon, there are certainly many different ideas lingering about of what is meant by 'love.' The type of love in which I place my faith is a thpe that cannot be feigned. It isn't an emotion, of a feeling... It isn't something that you can convey through words. It's a certain way of acting.. A certain way of treating people. Actions can't be feigned, because actions speak for themselves and they are as they are. Only intentions, identities, appearances - things of that nature - can be feigned. Those things matter not.

[geetanjali]

ThatIndividual I think just as you do & also believe that if there is faith & love essentially there is Love of God & this love is the greatest. It is unconditional , unalloyed & abundant.It is there everywhere & anywhere you want it. Time is no constraint here. It is just this love that is keeping us together on this forum & not fully technology or internet alone. The longing I have to see & know all of you around here is the proof that we all came from a common pool. The fact that medical science cant synthesize blood & blood has to come from a human donor only is the proof for love & love of God. Blood has no religion & I think that is its beauty. Men in the world are letting blood flow through war & terror . That is irreligious. love is faith,faith is love.Together they are beauty.And beauty is truth. Dont get confused!!!!

[emily655321]

Delete: Just noticed I posted twice.

[emily655321]

I think most people do have a psychological need to believe in something "greater," more powerful, than they. I mean no disrespect to anyone's religious beliefs; after all, who am I to deny anyone something they need? :D But it is something that I find intriguing and to which I have given considerable thought.

To me, it seems that the widespread need to believe in God (or science, or anything; giant flying badgers, if you like; to believe in a greater Something) is born our of a psychological need for a parent-figure. I came to this conclusion by analyzing my own feelings on the subject; why, for instance, did it cause me such pain to realize that I really didn't believe in God anymore? It took me a long time to admit it to myself, and at first I made a lot of excuses to myself; reasons why x may be false but y could still be true. If he was never there to begin with, what did I feel I was losing? The answer: Protection.

When we are children, our parents are our gods. We believe they know everything, they never make mistakes, and no matter what, they will protect us. Nothing can hurt me as long as Mommy is here. This isn't just a fluke, or a result of operant conditioning; there are plenty of times we get hurt as a kid, but we don't blame our parents, or become disillusioned with their power. There are many, many cases of child abuse by parents in which the children remain loyal to their parents, often even concealing the crime to protect the parent. As unfortunate as such cases are, it is an evolutionary function that we are born with, to love our caretakers; you could say we're born with Stockholm syndrome. Don't mistake me as thinking there is something wrong with this; I use a negative example to demonstrate the power of the instinct. For a small child, unable to protect himself, the parental bond is the most important thing in the world.

But we don't remain children. As we grow older and our minds develop, we begin the journey to independence. Gradually we begin to realize that our parents are not perfect, that they are just people, the same as we. We even begin to recognize ways in which we are superior to our parents! This is just as important as the parental bond was to us as an infant. If we always believed our parents to be superior, we would never learn to fend for ourselves, never build in ourselves the strength to go off on our own.

But in the separation from our parents, we lose our hitherto only source of protection. (I use parents as the most common example. If you grew up most connected to an aunt, a grandmother, or a teacher, then they are the person by whom I mean "parent;" they are your "parental figure," the one whom you felt to be your greatest protector, to whom you were accountable, and the person who made the rules.) As an adult, we must find our own way of protecting ourself. We must develop self-discipline, and make our own rules. It's not fun. In fact, it sucks. It's what we call "the harsh truth." There are many, many times when I get tired and scared and wish my mother were here to take over and make things right again. If I had my way, my mother would be here. But she's not. So the mind begins to do a funny thing, as it often does when we want something desperately enough.

I digress a moment: When our bodies are lacking a certain vitamin, for instance, it makes us crave the sort of food that contains that vitamin. Or, a better example, when we are tired, the brain tells us first to sleep. We don't always hear the correct message, and if we ignore the sleep order, the brain says, "Well, your body's out of energy. If you won't sleep, I'll make you hungry so it can get energy that way." So we begin to crave carbohydrates, the chief energy resources of the body. And then we think, "Oh, I want cake." Which is not the original message at all, but it is the one we finally heed, because it is one which we like to hear. We may not want to or be able to go to bed at that moment, but we're certainly open to the idea of eating cake. In this way, the message, "I'm tired" becomes, "I want cake" (an utterly ridiculous one, since no one ever needs cake).

So what does the mind do when we begin to want our mother? It sends us the message, "I want protection, my mother should be here." But it's not the mother of our adulthood that we crave, rather the all-powerful, all-knowing mother of our childhood, and she never really existed. We may want protection, but we can't give our mind that security; we are all that we have. So, the mind thinks of something else to comfort us, and it sends us the message, "Well, if Mommy isn't here, perhaps there's something else, something greater, that can protect me. I want God." Or, if not God specifically, Something.

We each know our weaknesses, and it is terrifying to think that there is nothing but us to protect ourselves. We still think as a little child, we feel utterly defenseless, or at least fear that there will always be something against which we are unable to protect ourself. Such aloneness feels like standing on the edge of a precipice, and the mind's only resort is to protect its own sanity by creating something comforting in the place of what was lost. Psychologists call this "restoring psychic balance." The need to believe is the mind's way of saying, "I wish my mother were here."

It is entirely possible that some people don't feel such a need. I know people who have never craved cake in their lives. But, personally, I crave cake often. And as tempting as it is to comply, I retranslate the message and realize that I'm tired. Sometimes I eat cake anyway, but at least I recognize that it's not cake I need.

I realize I'm cynical, but my personal litmus test for whether a belief is probable is whether it is comforting; if you'd like it to be true, it probably isn't. Being a grown-up sucks, but I am all that I have.

EDIT: That said, I have to go now because my dad's coming in 15 minutes to bring me home for Thanksgiving. :p Oh... irony is embarrassing.

[ChuckBukowski]

ThatIndividual and Emil655321 make compelling arguments and it's a shame that devout religionists probably won't give their comments the time of day. Nothing is more frustrating than listening to someone try to wax philosophical and prove their opinion by quoting scripture. It underscores my disbelief in an omnipotent power because I don’t think God would create people that dense, then again it does take all kinds doesn’t it? Christianity and Judaism have been ingrained in our/my (American/Western) culture for thousands of years, its done near irreversible damage to our mass consciousness. If you had never heard of the bible, God or Christianity and stumbled upon a bible in a book store, then read it, do you honestly think you'd buy into any of what it said? You'd say, "wow, that was a long story and it had a lot of holes in its plot." If you're an adult and you still believe in the "bogeyman", 666, and people getting swallowed by whales then more than likely you have serious underlying issues. And by the way, most people in prison believe in God, a lot of this stems from fear, guilt and redemption. Sometimes we screw up so bad that no one else wants to be around us, but you always have a friend in Jesus, right? We all need to be loved and protected and if believing in a deity gives you that then fine. But as soon as your "beliefs" start impeding on my life then I take serious offense. I cant buy alcohol on Sunday because of your God, I cant buy my girlfriend an abortion because of your God, and for some reason sodomy is illegal because of your God....ok, maybe religion keeps me from being a total derelict. If you want to believe in something believe in the sun, trees and birds like the ancient polytheist cultures. At least the sun, trees and birds are relevant and actually exist.

[Aeonna]

I hadn't considdered the need for faith before but I've often thought the core of most religions lies in a desire for justice. The world is blatantly unfair and it hurts to see it that way. People want an answer, a solution to this problem and it is given in different forms. In Hinduism it's Karma -you deserve what you get because your current life is decided by your previous, in others, Christianity among them, it's the reward of paradise for the good. All help you to accept inequality.

More to the subject: as agreed people have a longing for something greater in life. Maybe so that it can answer, or at least soothe the great existential questions.
But besides religion that may be the American Dream or even a devotion to a football team. All these can cause suffering; religion makes an excellent excuse for power hungry leaders, getting rich at all costs will leave some victims and fotball hooliganism becomes the norm in some circles. It reminds me of another "ideal" - Nationalism, which can be said to have caused the First World War. Yet people, I think, should be allowed to feel for their country. And it would be terrible if people weren't allowed believe in deities or to pursue their dreams and support their team. All those things to good too, only it's harder to spot. Rather than religion then I think fanatism is what to fear - the excess of anything.

[prince]

help My god

I need you My god

I Love you My god

you nice my god

[prince]

help My god

I need you My god

I Love you My god

you nice my god






____________________________________________

[Countess]

Now I am really frustrated because I cannot find the treatise I wrote some time ago on this exact subject. I hope it is on one of those disks I have at the house - it was really quite a good exposition on the topic.
I had stated that conflict has two components: denial being the passive ignoring of the obvious, and "the need to believe" being the positive, active component of choosing something else in its place. In fact, I had coined it exactly that way "the need to believe".

This poem I wrote some time ago even uses that as a theme:

My life is built on
red herrings and strawman arguments
a house of cards
carefully crafted out of
willful denial and partial lies,
with each placard placed
precariously atop its skewed foundation.

A gentle gust from the vacuous pit
spitting its bitter indifference
threatens my sophisticated
artistry, and in horror of reckoning
the possibilities, I strive to protect
from utter wreck my precious investment:
that delicate balance of authenticity
and self-deception

so crucially contrived that is
self-evident, but nevertheless
still required for me to believe.


BAH! I'm frustrated.

[prince]

I'm frustrated.

me too :confused: