Where did we get that expression?

[Pendragon]

Where did we get the expression "mad as a Hatter"? :)

[samercury]

I have no idea??? I want to know too

[Taliesin]

Hmm, we think that this has got something to do with the fact that hatters used mercury for their job, which is poisonous and made them freaky - mad. The expression existed long before Carroll, but we think that he made it more famous.

[shortysweetp]

thats what i was thinking that it has something to do with the profession

[Nightshade]

Me me me oh wow I have a book on this...


Mad As A Hatteris a term used to describe unpredictable behaviour. In the Middle Ages making felt hats involved a highly toxic substance called mercurous nitrate.This acid was known to cause tremblingin some people, a little like the symptoms of Parkingson's Disease, and those who suffered the effects in this way were assumed mad or crazy. During the 17th century tales were told about a man called Robert Crab, an eccentric living in Chesham, who was easily identified because of his distinictive hat and was known to locals as 'the mad hatter. He apparently gave away all his wealth to the poor and lived his life eating anything he could find in the countryside, such as grass, berries and dock leaves. The phrase passed over int the English language in the 19 th Century thanks to Lewis Carroll and his novel Alice in Wonderland. In the story Carroll invented a mad hatter but he may have been inspired by a real-life figure.

And this has got to be one of my longest posts ever
(after prievew ) or maybe not :D ....
ps this book is A-mazing :nod:

[B-Mental]

Very well done Nightshade! :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

You get a chorus line of dancing bug eyed yellow thingeys.
:brow: :brow:
Very industrious answer of precise origins!

[Pendragon]

Well done! I had hoped to catch a few with that one, but the egg is on my face! :blush: And there's your next phraze: Where did we get the phraze "you've got egg on your face"?

[Nightshade]

ohh guess what this is also in my book :D



To have Egg on your face implies a decsion or choice has been made which later turns out to be a mistake, leaving a person looking foolish. Some suggest this is a relativly new phrase and originates in America during the election campaigns of the 1960s and 1970s. At the time it was common for opponents of a candidate to throw eggs at them in order to make them look foolissh. there is however, strong evidence to suggest the Victorian theatres hold the origin. At the time, during the slapstick comedies of the era, the fall guy would usually have eggs broken on his forehead to make him look foolish, not unlike taking a custard pie in the face. Those crazy Victorians!

Okay now I have a q where does brass monkeys come from? Thats not in my book even though he says on theecover that he will explain it he doesnt which is a bit annoying as Ive always wondered about that one.
:D

*edit* It appears I just told a lie I found it under its full name that is "Cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey" still it would be fun to find oput who else is under the missaprhension as to the origin and meaning of theis phrase http://www.websmileys.com/sm/angels/teu26.gif

[Pendragon]

*edit* It appears I just told a lie I found it under its full name that is "Cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey" still it would be fun to find oput who else is under the missaprhension as to the origin and meaning of theis phrase http://www.websmileys.com/sm/angels/teu26.gif That one I don't have. BTW, nice smiley! Don't keep us in suspense!http://www.websmileys.com/sm/crazy/1092.gif

[Nightshade]

okk here we go and is that what that toilet smilie means? Well who knew?!

The guns on 18th centuary men-of- war ships needed gun-powder to fire them, this was stoed in a different part of the ship for saftey reasons. young boys, often orphans, who were small enough to slip through tight spaces, carried this powder along tiny passsages and galleys. Because of their agility the lads became known as "powder monkeys" and by association the brass traysused to hold cannonballsbecame known as brass monkeys.these trays had 16 cannonball-sized indentations that would form the base of a cannonball pyramid. Brass was used because the balls would not stick to or rust on brass as they did with iron, but the drawback was that brasscontracts much faster in cold weather than iron. this meant that on severely cold days the indentations holding the lower level of cannonballs would contract spilling the pyramid over the deck, hence "cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey"
Well I for one admit that I had a tottaly different idea of what freezing balls off meant but apparantly this appears to come from same source. and this expresion I always presumed brass monkeys had somthing to do with india.oh well we live and learn. Sort of like Sweet FA not standing for what you might think at all but has a rather grisley child murder story behind it :)

[Pendragon]

I have no idea what the toliet smile means, I just found it hilarious! I, too, thought Oriential with the Brass monkey. Get our minds out of the gutter, right? :lol: The next pharaze is:
Where did we get "once in a blue moon?" http://www.websmileys.com/sm/aliens/hae36.gif

[Nightshade]

well seeing as Im at work without my trusty book :bawling:
Ill just guess itll remind me to find out Blue moon ....humm bet its medieval in origin and somthing to do with the weather

FYI theres another book like the white elephant and red herring book out of course I have to buy it! :D

[Pendragon]

well seeing as Im at work without my trusty book :bawling:
Ill just guess itll remind me to find out Blue moon ....humm bet its medieval in origin and somthing to do with the weather

FYI theres another book like the white elephant and red herring book out of course I have to buy it! :DHere ya go, straight from Uncle John Bathroom Reader Plunges *giggle* Into The Universe, page 320. "It refers to the second full moon within a month--a rare thing indeed. But over the course of a century there'll be 41 months with two full moons, so [once in a blue moon] really means--if you want to get literal--once every 2.4 years." How 'bout that, 'eh? http://www.websmileys.com/sm/dressed/bek040.gif

Next: Where did we get the expression: "It's raining cats and dogs?"

[Scheherazade]

Next: Where did we get the expression: "It's raining cats and dogs?"I believe we owe that one to Old MacDonalds (alas, he never gets credited for it).

On a particularly gloomy afternoon, the old dear Mac Donalds looks outside his window to discover that it is pouring down. He turns around and says to his beloved cats and dogs (for he used to keep five of each at home) and says 'It is raining, Cats and Dogs!' His wife who happened to be in the kitchen at the time, overhears this and, being a woman of little education, she fails to appreciate the powers of punctuation and thinks that he said 'It is raining cats and dogs'. And next day, she spreads the word around in the town square that 'It rained cats and dogs yesterday' .

[Pendragon]

I believe we owe that one to Old MacDonalds (alas, he never gets credited for it).

On a particularly gloomy afternoon, the old dear Mac Donalds looks outside his window to discover that it is pouring down. He turns around and says to his beloved cats and dogs (for he used to keep five of each at home) and says 'It is raining, Cats and Dogs!' His wife who happened to be in the kitchen at the time, overhears this and, being a woman of little education, she fails to appreciate the powers of punctuation and thinks that he said 'It is raining cats and dogs'. And next day, she spreads the word around in the town square that 'It rained cats and dogs yesterday' .
Incorrect, Scheherazade, but here's a lovely pink elephant for you: http://www.websmileys.com/sm/animal/460.gif

[B-Mental]

Here ya go, straight from Uncle John Bathroom Reader Plunges *giggle* Into The Universe, page 320. "It refers to the second full moon within a month--a rare thing indeed. But over the course of a century there'll be 41 months with two full moons, so [once in a blue moon] really means--if you want to get literal--once every 2.4 years." How 'bout that, 'eh? http://www.websmileys.com/sm/dressed/bek040.gif

Next: Where did we get the expression: "It's raining cats and dogs?"

I was going to say that also, and I'm sure I read it in your distinguished source. My brother is a Uncle John junkie. :)

[Scheherazade]

Incorrect, Scheherazade, but here's a lovely pink elephant for you: http://www.websmileys.com/sm/animal/460.gif I was so sure that this is how the expression 'raining cats and dogs' had started:
I believe we owe that one to Old MacDonalds (alas, he never gets credited for it).

On a particularly gloomy afternoon, the old dear Mac Donalds looks outside his window to discover that it is pouring down. He turns around and says to his beloved cats and dogs (for he used to keep five of each at home) and says 'It is raining, Cats and Dogs!' His wife, who happened to be in the kitchen at the time, overhears this and, being a woman of little education, she fails to appreciate the powers of punctuation, and thinks that he said 'It is raining cats and dogs'. And next day, she spreads the word around in the town square that 'It rained cats and dogs yesterday' .
Thanks for the elephant anyway! :D

[Nightshade]

here we go Cats and dogs (Im home so this is more officially sorce....


when we look out of the window and its raining cats and dogs, it is too wet to go out. There are several suggestions for the origin of this phrase,one alluding to a famous occasion when it actually rained frogs. Apparently many were lifted into the air during a howling gale and then dropped to the ground around startled pedestrians. Cockney rhyming slang then substituted 'cats and dogs' for 'frogs'.
But I prefer the ancient nautical myth, which led sailors to belive that cats had some sort of influence over storms. According to the Vikings dogs were also a symbol of storms and they always appear in illustrations and descriptions of their own Norse god of storms.(Odin, father of Thor, was the god of thunder and is described as an old bearded man with one eye who wore a cloak and a wide brimmed hat. Many claim he was the inspiration for JJR Tolkien's character Gandalf in The Lord of the Rings.) Because of this connection,ancient mariners belived that when it rained it was cats tha caused it and when the gales appeared they were brought by the dogs, leading to the phrase"cats and dogs".
The phrase first appeard in 1738 when Jonathan Swift wrote in his book "A Complete Collection of polite and Ingenius Conversation", 'I know Sir John will go, though he was sur it would rain cats and dogs.' In 1653 Richard Broome wrote in his play "City Wit", 'It shall rain dogs and polecats,' suggesting he too alluded to old naytical tales
personally I prefer the first explanaion. :nod:

[Pendragon]

Ah, well, according to my, ah, distinguished *giggle* source, dear old Uncle John's

In 1600's England it was common practice to discard any waste into the streets--even deceased household pets. Once it rained so much that the now-deceased Tabbies and Fidos became buoyant and floated along the streets, thus inspiring writer Richard Brome in 1651 to record, "It shall rain dogs and polecats." So ONE of us is right anywhoo!
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/1055.gif
Next Phrase: Where did we get "Saved by the bell"?

[Nightshade]

I think I know that one without looking somthing to do with boxing depression era america dont quote me though I think ill give someon elsse a try who is this Uncle john? can I meet this person?? or rad this book or whatever???
pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees :D
*trying to immitate jay trademare eyelashes big puppy eyes thing* this is not working Ill brinbe you with a choclate instead :D

[Pendragon]

who is this Uncle john? can I meet this person?? or rad this book or whatever???
pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees :D
*trying to immitate jay trademare eyelashes big puppy eyes thing* this is not working Ill brinbe you with a choclate instead :D Yo, Nightshade! Uncle John's Bathroom Reader's are for sale in most bookstores and online from http://www.barnesandnoble.com/ They are full of fun facts. In Britian, he'd probably be called "Uncle Lou". http://www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/422.gifHA!C'ya!

[Nightshade]

I see well ok then I will look into that.
Just to say I did look "saved by the bell up" and although the boxing connection is obvious it is also not correct or at least there is anotheer possible source.......:D

[Pendragon]

Oh, it's right c'har, me lass! Anybody wanna give 'er a go, or d'yer just wan' th' auld Dragon t'spew it out lioke? http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cartoon/508.gif

[Nightshade]

okay whats up with the accent Pendragon??
and what "c'har" mean
ohh wait are you saing its right ye'are lass?

anyway Ill do it if you want its not as long a piece as some of the others :D

[Pendragon]

Got it in one, luv. Dinnae worry aboot me, me ancestors were Brits, I read a lot of British Lit, an' luv t' droive th' blokes 'ere 'bouts barmy wit t' accent. I'm a voice mimic, ya uner'stan'. Gi' 'er a go, then, an' we'll see if we're on th' same bloomin' page! BTW, yer nae deadly Nightshade, are ye lass? ;) (Yeah I know, I mix accents a lot. Stupid Yank!) :brow:

[Nightshade]

yupp I be that indeed! And mider it be bleedin'not bloomin';)
I thought it was the angles with the name an'all sorry love I been't one for accents I just tend to talk like whatever book im reading at the mo and sine I be reading three set in different places and eras my accent is a shambles!
talk about mixing things up!!
any way wwaht you be want ng is page 214 of my book not me spouting on about accents.
Unfortunatly Im nott lazy to quote it proper
so heres the parphrase
One night in Victorian englang a guard from the Horse Gaurd Parade in London was famously accused of being a sleep on watch (apparantly a big deal) . anyway he denied and sated as proof that h heard Big ben strike 13 at midnight instead of the normal 12 . apparantly because his supposed crime was so bad the clock was checked and they found aclog was out of line causing it to strike 13. he was set free sve by the bell-Big Ben.
FYI in case you didnt know Big ben is the bell not the tower or the clock!

[Nightshade]

ok were do we get the expression Murphys law

[Pendragon]

OK. Before I can get to the question on "Murphys law" I need to clarify a few things. Yep, even this old Southern American Boy knew Big Ben was the chime not the clock! And no, that is still not the correct answer for "saved by the bell".

In the days before modern medicine and embalming, it was hard to tell if a person was actually dead, and many feared being buried alive. Corpses were laid out in funeral array for a few days with a string attached to a finger running to a bell. If the person came back to life and moved, the bell rang, and they didn't have to bury him or her. Some took it a step further, being actually buried with the string and bell rigged to their coffin! If that bell rang, they were hastily dug up, some being quite litterally "saved by the bell.", for they were almost smothered!

As to Murphys law, I'll have to look it up! I think it's in the other Uncle John book I have... If not I have several books with weird facts so I'll try to find it! Good choice, Nightshade! Right good show, luv! :)

[Nightshade]

Now see here Pendragon my answer was not wrong it was merely a probable answer as is the other 2 offerred yours and mine !!
:D
although come to think of it I have heard yours mentioned before.

[Pendragon]

Now see here Pendragon my answer was not wrong it was merely a probable answer as is the other 2 offerred yours and mine !!



Ach, lass, dinnae gi' yer kickers in a knot, naow! I be jest funnin' yer, loike! O'course yer answer were as right as mine, to be sure! Two diff'ent sources, thas all! An' 'oo knows, maybe both t'were just bloody shootin' bloind! (Dropping this stupid accent!) As Mulder always says on the X-Files, The Truth is Out There.... :alien: :alien: :alien:

[samercury]

So that's where those expressions came from. Pendragon, where did you find the pink elephant? I love it!

[Lauralou]

My English Teacher of all ppl told our class where the insult of raising one's middle finger came from. I hope I get it right if not please correct me... Apparently in the olden days I'm not exactly sure when. the penalty for treason was to cut off the offender's middle finger. Therefore in defiance when the king would pass people would stick up their middle figures to insult him.

She also told us where the "F" word came from. Apparently nobel men had the right to sleep with a peasant's wife before she was married. So while the "deed was being done" there was a sign posted on the door of the woman's cottage which said Fornification Under Creedence of the King. Shortened to the Accronym its the word we all know and r shocked to hear.

[Nightshade]

Ive heard the fornification story before and I suppose the middle finger makessense as in the uk its also a reversed peace sign which comes from the 100 years war and the french cutting off archers fingers.

[Pendragon]

So that's where those expressions came from. Pendragon, where did you find the pink elephant? I love it!
The Pink Elephant came from here http://www.websmileys.com/ but be warned, not all things are as neat. You have to pick and choose.

Now, Nightshade, about old Murphy's law:

The following article was excerpted from The Desert Wings
March 3, 1978

Murphy's Law ("If anything can go wrong, it will") was born at Edwards Air Force Base in 1949 at North Base.

It was named after Capt. Edward A. Murphy, an engineer working on Air Force Project MX981, (a project) designed to see how much sudden deceleration a person can stand in a crash.

One day, after finding that a transducer was wired wrong, he cursed the technician responsible and said, "If there is any way to do it wrong, he'll find it."

The contractor's project manager kept a list of "laws" and added this one, which he called Murphy's Law.

Actually, what he did was take an old law that had been around for years in a more basic form and give it a name.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

Where did we get the expression: "Can't hold a candle to you"? :idea:

[YellowCrayola]

Here:


CAN'T HOLD A CANDLE TO YOU - ".It goes back to Shakespeare's time, before there was any such thing as street lighting. In those days a person returning home from a tavern or theater would be accompanied by a linkboy, who carried a torch or candle. These linkboys were considered very inferior beings, so to say that Tom couldn't 'hold a candle to ' Harry meant that Tom was very much inferior to Harry." From the "Morris Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins" by William and Mary Morris (HarperCollins, New York, 1977, 1988).

Another statement:


"A phrase dating to the 16th century is "can't hold a candle to," meaning "not fit for comparison to" something clearly superior (as in "Frozen waffles can't hold a candle to the homemade kind"). "To hold a candle to" originally meant to literally assist someone by holding a candle to illuminate the work, i.e., to act as a subordinate. Thus "can't (or "not fit to") hold a candle" meant "not even fit to work as an underling."

[Pendragon]

I can confirm YellowCrayola's statements as true. Bring on the bananas! :banana: :banana: :banana: However, I await confirmation from Nightshade on Murphy's Law. Right or Wrong, Lassie? :confused: Let's see: Hmm?

Where do we get the phrase "Dyed in the wool"? :)

[Nightshade]

Pendragon it was right and I know that dyed in the wool is in my book back home but Im typing this on my lunch brake at work so I cant get to it :bawling:
*edit* have you decided to drop the accent then,pendragon also its knickers in a twist not knot ;)

[Pendragon]

Pendragon it was right and I know that dyed in the wool is in my book back home but Im typing this on my lunch brake at work so I cant get to it :bawling:
*edit* have you decided to drop the accent then,pendragon also its knickers in a twist not knot ;)
To tell th' truth, luv, wasnae over sure t'was truly an expression 'cross th' whater. 'Sides, lassie, "knickers in a knot" 'tis better alliteration, eh, whot? O're 'ere 'tis "panties/(under)shorts in a wad". That'd be a gud 'un fer our list, don't cha know. Where'd we get th' expression "Dinnae get yer knickers in a twist"? What say, luv? :lol: :lol: :lol: Don't forget folks, the question is: Where did we get the expression : "Dyed in the wool"?

[Nightshade]

akkk, I thought hedsuddenly been struck by sense...my mistake ;)
cant find knickers in a twist I may have to do soome research :banana:
oh you know what Im going to give other peple a chance to reply to the question and if by tommorow its not here Ill do it!1

[Pendragon]

Sense? Moi? Ye maun be joking! :goof: Dear, dear Nightshade. I must laugh to keep from crying. Laugh and the world will laugh with you, but cry, and you cry all alone... An' mind, lassie, 'tis bitter alone...

[Nightshade]

The expression Dyed in the wool is usedto describe someone who is fixed in their opinions and inflexible. The phrase came into use in EEnglish wool mills and is first recorded in 1579 . Quite simply wool that gad been dyed before it was treated would retain its colour much better than if it were dyed after weaving (known as "dyed in the piece"). Therefore 'dyed in the wool' became a phrase applied to anything that wasnt easily altered by other processes, such as persuasion.
There I finally got round to posing it next phrase is "knickers in a twist".

[Pendragon]

'ere's yer 'nanners fer a co'rect answer!
:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

I believe but can't confirm, dash it all, that "knickers in a twist, panties/undershorts in a wad" comes from hiking and horseback riding. You sweat and it causes the dreaded "undies creeping disese" in which your underthings become bunched up, twisted, etc. and is very uncomfortable. A person in this condition is apt to not be in the best of moods. Thus it became an expression meaning "don't get upset or snapish". As I say, I cannae confirm. Up t' you, naow, luv, t' gi' me th' right o' it! :)
'

[Nightshade]

Oh i cant confirm it Im trully wondering what it is but thankfull next week Im buying the next edition of The Red herrings book caleld shaggy dog or somthing so mayber itll be in that
:D

[Pendragon]

OOOOOOOOKKKKKK.
Then the new phrase, moving right along.

Where did we get the expression, "Not up to scratch."

[Nightshade]

ok Pendragon (look do you mind jus being Pen? its easier to write:D)
I cant find up to scratch so can you please give the answer??http://www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/1209.gif
:nod:

[Pendragon]

ok Pendragon (look do you mind jus being Pen? its easier to write:D)
I cant find up to scratch so can you please give the answer??http://www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/1209.gif
:nod:No, I don't mind being just "Pen", someone else already uses that in PMs.

Here's the lowdown:

In the early days of boxing there was no ring, and no bell to singnal rounds. The referee would scratch a line in the dirt between the two fighters. The round begin when both men steped over the line. If a fighter couldn't (or wouldn't) cross the line to continue the match, he was said to be "not up to scratch".http://www.websmileys.com/sm/dressed/bek183.gif

New phrase: Where do we get the phrase "passing the buck"?

[B-Mental]

Not sure about that one, but holmesian has a good one.

what does "The game is afoot" actually mean?
it might sound like a very stupid question. but i am not from an English-speaking country. so...

Any answers to this, please post on http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?p=122062#post122062 thanks.

[Nightshade]

well missed this :rolleyes:
anyway I belive its a hunting expression the game is a foot is when the game/ quarry/ prey is on the run or you are closing in...

:D

well just though that was done now I was looking for this thread to BUMP it but well this does it doesnt it? :D

Ok my phrase now
"white elephant"
:brow:

[Pendragon]

My stupid computer won't let me use the forum right today, no cute smilies or anything! I've got that white elephant here someplace.....meanwhile, "passing the buck" came from gambling, poker playing to be exact. To indicate whose deal it was, they would pass a bowie knife, with a staghorn (buck) handle to the dealer. In this way it entered the language as an expression meaning to place the blame on someone else. In the poker game, if one player complained about the cards he received, another player would point to the man with the knife, as much to say, "Hey, HE dealt!" :)