When is cencorship apropriate?

[Stanislaw]

I was looking in my school library for variouse texts from different religions, however I was not able to find any, I asked the librarian why this was so and she replied that this is a PUBLIC school. :rolleyes:

I also could not find many ideologies books, including books by Karl Marx.

I was wondering about wether or not this is constitutional, in my opinion it violates the right to freedom of speach. I am feeling that if I make a stink of it I might get grabbed by the ministry of thought ;) (1984).

When is censorship going to far?

[Admin]

I think that is too far. The practice of religion shouldn't be allowed, but the study should. I remember studying all the major religions in highschool as part of my world history class. We even had posters of Muhammed, Buddha, Christ, etc on the wall.

Religion, for good or ill, is an integral part of society and no study of society could be complete without a study of religion.

[Stanislaw]

I agree with you, I was not practicing a faith, but merely researching allusions for an english topic.

[Demona]

why make a fuss about it? Use another library!
on the one hand i do agree that school probably has to have at least some information about the religions.
on the other, school is a public place - displaying books of such content might be eaqueled to propaganda therefore, just to be on the safe side, i believe, they do not have those at all. and there are minorities who are going to make fuss about the books about their religion and so on...and one more thing, i`ve never seen a school library that has Capital by Karl Marx or anything like that... actually, the point about propaganda goes here as well: you want to know about it - use other sources, found on your own...don`t involve schools. they have a lot of more complicated problems than that...

[ihrocks]

Balancing my roles as a current parent and a former journalist, I have to say yes, this is worth making a fuss about it.

If the school offers courses in literature and one is expected to do research papers, they should have the tools available to complete the assignment. Offering books about religion, especially if you offer a balanced selection covering all the major religions, is not proselytizing. In high school, as required reading, I was assigned "The Grapes of Wrath" and "Siddhartha." Now, how is a student expected to understand and appreciate those books if they are not allowed some access to reference material on Christianity and Buddhism? That is not the same as school prayer or requiring students to learn the 10 Commandments before they can graduate.

Where it gets tricky is when you leave the arena of religion and enter the realm of ideas. What books are appropriate to have on the school shelves at what age? Is "Huck Finn" an elementary school book? Is every child ready for "Catcher in the Rye" at 12 or 13? And if I think they are, what about the parents who feel otherwise? Is that censorship or respecting the rights of parents?

ihrocks

[Stanislaw]

I still believe that this material should be availiable, perhaps in its own section, that way the materil would only be noticed if one went into that section. I believe firmly in the freedom of speach, But I don't believe in forcing ones views on another persone. I am just really ticked off that needed material is not availiable to the students of my school, I am thinking a letter to the school board/ editor is a good idea. Any opinions?

[Shea]

I completely agree, and you should write that letter. Too much censorship results in very uneducated people. I believe that this is how prejudices occur. A fear of the unknown is ingrained in every human, the only way to beat that is to be educated!

[Demona]

Balancing my roles as a current parent and a former journalist, I have to say yes, this is worth making a fuss about it.

If the school offers courses in literature and one is expected to do research papers, they should have the tools available to complete the assignment.......etc.

as i far as i understood - the problem the young man has is that THE SCHOOL library does not have the books he`d like to read; however, the books can obviously be easily obtained in another library....i insist that we should not forget this point. so...i really don`t see any problem...the school does not give you an assigment and forbid to read the books you need to read. they are just not in the school library. obviously, if the man in question has grown-up enough to make fuss about it, he can also find another library, can`t he?
excuse me, but if i made fuss about every book i couldn`t find in my school library (i speak only of the books i needed to complete my tasks, not satisfying my personal wishes) i believe i wouldn`t have finished it at all.
life is cruel, i know =]

[Demona]

I completely agree, and you should write that letter. Too much censorship results in very uneducated people. I believe that this is how prejudices occur. A fear of the unknown is ingrained in every human, the only way to beat that is to be educated!

censorship leads to uneducated people? i`m sorry, but i do not agree with that statement. there is just one simple thing - if you really need to find something out - you`ll do it, notwithstanding censorship or what not!
generally speaking there is no censorship at all - cannot you find political books that were banned earlier?yes, you can easily buy them in nearly any bookstore, and it goes not only for political books. however, i do not see that many people actually READ these books, as well as i do see many uneducated people who are uneducated due to their being lazy, unwilling to stir a finger to do anything...the censorship has nothing to do with this.

[Shea]

Hmm, we may have to agree to differ on this, Demona. Like Admin, I remember studing different religions in high school in my world history class. If they require a course to study them, they should also require the library to carry the proper resourses. Schools are intended for education. And if you censor some of that education (as this school and it's library has evidently done), you wind up with a bunch of sheltered graduates who are suddenly thrown out into the world. This is when laziness of books generally occurs (for the average person) and they just feel around life learning by experience.

I'm not knocking experience, but wouldn't people progress better, if they already had the knowledge?

[Demona]

Hmm, we may have to agree to differ on this, Demona. Like Admin, I remember studing different religions in high school in my world history class. If they require a course to study them, they should also require the library to carry the proper resourses. Schools are intended for education. And if you censor some of that education (as this school and it's library has evidently done), you wind up with a bunch of sheltered graduates who are suddenly thrown out into the world. This is when laziness of books generally occurs (for the average person) and they just feel around life learning by experience.
I'm not knocking experience, but wouldn't people progress better, if they already had the knowledge?

hm...do you really think that if a person has the ready-made knowledge he would progress? i`d suggest that the progress would stop. people would have the knowledge they need (ok i`m talking about the majority now) so they have the knowledge, they perform an action. doesn`t that remind you of some kind of a robot? a computer, perhaps? it has all the knowledge it needs and functions almost perfectly! "ask" it ..a computer to do something beyond the given information/knowledge - there you have it - Incapable! i`d suggest that the same would happen to a person. the aim of any school is not just GIVE information but also to teach how to LEARN and how to FIND the information you need esp. in contemporary society where the information flow is extremely fast. try seeing the problem not just from the point of view of a student but from the point of a school as well.

besides, i believe you are a grown-up person, as far as i could grasp from your posts about yourself;i belive that you know how it is in this life - no one is going to show you "the shelf in the library" where you can find solutions to your problems. so, one can start learning from the school age to be independent and capable of finding information and answers not within the walls of one`s little school.

[Munro]

hm...do you really think that if a person has the ready-made knowledge he would progress? i`d suggest that the progress would stop. people would have the knowledge they need (ok i`m talking about the majority now) so they have the knowledge, they perform an action. doesn`t that remind you of some kind of a robot? a computer, perhaps? it has all the knowledge it needs and functions almost perfectly! "ask" it ..a computer to do something beyond the given information/knowledge - there you have it - Incapable! i`d suggest that the same would happen to a person. the aim of any school is not just GIVE information but also to teach how to LEARN and how to FIND the information you need esp. in contemporary society where the information flow is extremely fast. try seeing the problem not just from the point of view of a student but from the point of a school as well.

besides, i believe you are a grown-up person, as far as i could grasp from your posts about yourself;i belive that you know how it is in this life - no one is going to show you "the shelf in the library" where you can find solutions to your problems. so, one can start learning from the school age to be independent and capable of finding information and answers not within the walls of one`s little school.

I disagree, because in my experience in being educated, the more I learn the less I feel that I know, and more different branches of learning and knowledge are made available to me because of my exposure to whatever topic I had been learning. I've recently been reading authors who are existential in their philosophy, and after reading one novel and learning the principles of their beliefs I read more by that author, and then another set of books by another existential author to see other perspectives and to learn more, and now I'm curious about dualists and nihilists...and I can see that it won't ever stop.

To compare the human brain to machinery, like computers, is an unfounded generalisation. I don't know much about how they function, but while there are some similarities in the areas of logic, problem solving etc. a computer is told what to learn, it is commanded to research and answer questions, whereas a human by nature attempts to seek knowledge by ways of understanding their place in the universe.

I agree with Shea's last post, the purpose of a school is to educate, and education is the most important gift an individual can have (in my opinion). A wide range of resouces should be made available to students to expose them to different perspectives, and censorship is ridiculous, unless it is an age/maturity thing as ihrocks pointed out. Luckily, I am take a Studies of Religion class at my school (my exam for it is tomorrow, coincidentally) and I have loved learning about world religions and religion as a phenomenon, and how it affects society.
Stanislaw, I think you should definitely write a letter to the library.

And Demonda, why bring age into this discussion? Granted that we're all reading, or educated, or thoughtful, I can't see why age should be counted in these forums at all. Adults can be just as ignorant and inexperienced as adolescents, and age shouldn't be a consideration in any discussion, it's just another form of snobbery, another 'ism', agism...completely mindless.

And if you're wondering, I would have objected to the age comment even if I wasn't adolescent.

[Munro]

the aim of any school is not just GIVE information but also to teach how to LEARN and how to FIND the information you need esp. in contemporary society where the information flow is extremely fast.

You are right by saying this, though, I agree. However, it is difficult to research and gain further knowledge if the resources are censored, and no government or institution has the right to obstruct freedom of knowledge.

[Shea]

I read Demona's post yesterday, but was too busy to respond, but this morning, I see that Munro took the words right out of my mouth (or in this case, right off of my fingers :rolleyes: )

[Demona]

I disagree, because in my experience in being educated, the more I learn the less I feel that I know, and more different branches of learning and knowledge are made available to me because of my exposure to whatever topic I had been learning. I've recently been reading authors who are existential in their philosophy, and after reading one novel and learning the principles of their beliefs I read more by that author, and then another set of books by another existential author to see other perspectives and to learn more, and now I'm curious about dualists and nihilists...and I can see that it won't ever stop.

I believe that everyone agrees with the saying of the famous philosopher and according to the way you quoted this phrase it seems to me that you are trying to state that whenever you get a prepared set of information (instead of researching yourself) you learn more, am i right?

the comparison you are using to understand particular authors better is a very good idea, however, i do not see the relevance to the topic, whatsoever.



To compare the human brain to machinery, like computers, is an unfounded generalisation. I don't know much about how they function, but while there are some similarities in the areas of logic, problem solving etc. a computer is told what to learn, it is commanded to research and answer questions, whereas a human by nature attempts to seek knowledge by ways of understanding their place in the universe.

i believe that the question is not wherether it is appropriate or inappropriate compare a human with a computer. the point is the result that we have. a helpless person does not really differ from a computer.....
and yes, a human, an educated human, does try to understand the place of different notions and essences in the universe; however, being an educated person one would not like those ideas that he might come up with to have no theoretical basis or prove...therefore, one has to find the opportunity to have the access to the information. that is basically that i was trying to say - unless one is capable of proving the needed materials, one is doomed to failure.
and if one is not able to obtain the materials - it is not the school to be blamed. what if they had the materials but they, for example, all taken by other students. what to do then - write a letter that the school does not supply the needed amount of books? ha...




I agree with Shea's last post, the purpose of a school is to educate, and education is the most important gift an individual can have (in my opinion). A wide range of resouces should be made available to students to expose them to different perspectives, and censorship is ridiculous, unless it is an age/maturity thing as ihrocks pointed out. Luckily, I am take a Studies of Religion class at my school (my exam for it is tomorrow, coincidentally) and I have loved learning about world religions and religion as a phenomenon, and how it affects society.
Stanislaw, I think you should definitely write a letter to the library.

it is amasing how people can hear and not to listen...well in this case read and not understand...
let`s put it _really_ simple: are the books which Stanislaw needs available in the other libraries, book stores or elsewhere?
in case of a "yes": what is the problem then considering that the school might have its own policy regarding the minorities and so on...
in case of a "no": then i just dont understand in what kind of a society he live....



And Demonda, why bring age into this discussion? Granted that we're all reading, or educated, or thoughtful, I can't see why age should be counted in these forums at all. Adults can be just as ignorant and inexperienced as adolescents, and age shouldn't be a consideration in any discussion, it's just another form of snobbery, another 'ism', agism...completely mindless.

And if you're wondering, I would have objected to the age comment even if I wasn't adolescent.

Dear Munro, first of all, I would appreciate your spelling my name correctly.
Second of all, why bring in the age? because if you read my previous post attentively enough you probably understand that my point referred not to the age as such but rather to the experience that one acquires. there are just things with which you just do not encounter during your school years. and as my personal experince shows - such situations dont have a manual....you have to find everything out for yourself. and there are no libraries to write letters to ...to complain or whatever.
third of all, i do not remember saying that an adult is a priori cleverer and so on. and as i have said above, the point is not in the age but in the experince, and i`m sorry to disappoint you, but an adult, again i`m speaking about the majority, is more experienced.
i also must warn you that if by any reason you came to a conclusion that i am an adult - you are quite wrong.

can I please ask you to define the word "adult"?

just a remark: saying insulting things to one`s opponent equals to admitting one`s failure.

[Shea]

as i far as i understood - the problem the young man has is that THE SCHOOL library does not have the books he`d like to read; however, the books can obviously be easily obtained in another library....i insist that we should not forget this point.

I want to go back to this. I understand that a school library isn't big enough to carry everything. But the topic that Stanislaw was looking for is pretty big and general isn't it? Even if it's only a school library, the fact that it doesn't have these books rather baffles me and the only conclusion that I can draw is that they are being censored, which is wrong. Bottom line, a letter needs to be written.

[Demona]

I want to go back to this. I understand that a school library isn't big enough to carry everything. But the topic that Stanislaw was looking for is pretty big and general isn't it? Even if it's only a school library, the fact that it doesn't have these books rather baffles me and the only conclusion that I can draw is that they are being censored, which is wrong. Bottom line, a letter needs to be written.

READ THE SCHOOL`S POLICY THEN WRITE WHATEVER YOU WANT!
sorry for the caps, but i am afraid that this is the only way I can ask people to take this point into consideration. this is the law that school establishes itself according to its needs. you cannot ignore it and just say that this is wrong. as simple as that. if there are no regulations according to which the library has no right to display the books, then fine - write the letter, bring the issue to the discussion, whatever....really.... however, i still think that going to another library would widen one`s outlook anyway. probably it would be a bigger library with even more books :) but it is up to you.

[AbdoRinbo]

A public high school shouldn't have restrictions on anything that is reasonably educational. A book on Satanism might not turn up, for example, but they should let you access the information on the internet. Then again, my high school censored The Onion webpage, which I thought leaned to the side of absurdity. I mean, c'mon, it's The Onion!

[Shea]

The Onion is funny, but I can understand why they would censor it. Some of it tends to be a bit risque.

[Demona]

A public high school shouldn't have restrictions on anything that is reasonably educational. A book on Satanism might not turn up, for example, but they should let you access the information on the internet. Then again, my high school censored The Onion webpage, which I thought leaned to the side of absurdity. I mean, c'mon, it's The Onion!

well, why shouldn`t a book on Satanism turn up then? it is educational, isn`t it? you cannot deny the fact that it exists, people are converted....it is a sect....a religion if you wish....and i am interested in all sorts of religions and so no... so, if there are materials about other religions why should not there be a book about Satanism? i`d have the right to complain then, you know...heh
that was one of the points that i stated in one of my first messages but only now a decent example came...if the school has the materials about the so called main religions it should acquire and display books about everything else...that`s just like a snowball, which grows and grows....i believe that schools just dont want to start it, for eventually it would bring things to chaos....

[AbdoRinbo]

It's not that I agree with the institution of education in America, Demona, but I understand the fact that they really don't want to repeat another Columbine incident. Is censoring, or outright banning, knowledge the best way to go about dealing with it? In my opinion, no. But give us an alternative and I'll show you that it is just as fraut with restrictions and contradictions as the current system. Even my alternative is riddled with problems which I am openly aware of; and it's probably too radical anyway.

[Demona]

It's not that I agree with the institution of education in America, Demona, but I understand the fact that they really don't want to repeat another Columbine incident. Is censoring, or outright banning, knowledge the best way to go about dealing with it? In my opinion, no. But give us an alternative and I'll show you that it is just as fraut with restrictions and contradictions as the current system. Even my alternative is riddled with problems which I am openly aware of; and it's probably too radical anyway.

did i say that banning or censoring can solve any problem? the point is that we are talking about one single school. it is not like there are no information avaliable in the whole country!

Anyway, i belive that everyone who participated in this conversation, are going to stick to their own opinions. There seems to be no point on which we can agree, and i belive that the reason for this is socially different background (by this i mean society as such, not an individual`s background). Besides, trying to convince someone of something, is useless and i do not really see any point in this. so, i suggest that we leave this thing as it is, meaning that we leave upto Staniwslaw to decide what do....who btw, after starting all this has disappeared lol....probably busy writing letters :)

cheers all,
Demona

[AbdoRinbo]

did i say that banning or censoring can solve any problem? the point is that we are talking about one single school. it is not like there are no information avaliable in the whole country!

No, and I hope you don't think that's what I was implying (I was kind of using 'you' as a rhetorical device). I'm just here lending a voice.


Besides, trying to convince someone of something, is useless and i do not really see any point in this. so, i suggest that we leave this thing as it is, meaning that we leave upto Staniwslaw to decide what do....who btw, after starting all this has disappeared.

I think it's good for education though. We're trying (or at least I'd like to think we're trying) to remedy the already problematic communication breakdown, especially in the US. So, please, keep talking.

[Demona]

No, and I hope you don't think that's what I was implying (I was kind of using 'you' as a rhetorical device). I'm just here lending a voice.

oh, well, good, then we got each others points =]



I think it's good for education though. We're trying (or at least I'd like to think we're trying) to remedy the already problematic communication breakdown, especially in the US. So, please, keep talking.

communication breakdown? enlighten me, please. if I got it correctly we are no longer talking about this censorship thing...are we?
i mean the topic is worth discussing in general but not in this particular case, to my mind.

P.S. i must appologise for misspelling (in my previous message) the name of the author of the thread: it is, of course Stanislaw not Staniwslaw. silly me...

[AbdoRinbo]

I think the social decay of communication goes hand-in-hand with the issue of censorship. I mean, my parents are always telling me that if I ever get arrested for drugs or something like that, they'll throw me out. Well, that's nice of them and all, but I'd rather they just talk to me instead of making lame threats. The same idea can be applied to our schools: should we threaten to suspend students who clash with the administration, or should we try and resolve the problem? This is a question that many students ask themselves, but, of course, no one ever resolves anything. The administration isn't there to make friends, they are there to provide a safe enviroment, even if it rests on a false sense of security. And, ultimately, it is the students who suffer in the end because of the boundaries that are imposed on them.

They are treated like pets in their first five or six years of schooling and then, with the completion of grammar school, they are looked at more as highly unstable masses of possibility. The aim of teachers is to instill a sense of order into them and produce useful citizens that will continue oiling the Capitalist Machine as soon as their generation steps down. The fact is, the powerful and wealthy people run this country. Look at Enron. Look at the reconstruction of Iraq. You probably didn't know this, but Dick Cheney is the CEO of Halliburton, the company that is rebuilding the Iraqi Oil Industry. Also, the Bush family owns huge shares of stock holdings in a St. Louis company, Engineered Support Systems, that mysteriously rose to $61.25 a share--leading to a total profit of $300 million--at the start of the war while all the other stocks seemed to take a nose-dive. That seems suspect to me. Anyway, this isn't a political debate, but you can see how those in power gain more wealth, more power, as a result of atrocities like war (and tax cuts).

The question arises as to whether the current political structure would benefit at all from schools that produced independent and thinking citizens. If more than 1% of the American population noticed a strange pattern in the stock market and the peculiar position of our leaders in the corporate world (or cared enough to point them out), there'd be a massive reform going on. Citizens who are taught to question their leaders, to go against the current of patriotism, are lethal to the American political structure, even as a minority. That's why schools, public and private, are so bent on censoring radical knowledge: it cracks skulls with their propaganda about democracy.

[Demona]

AbdoRinbo

hello,
i just popped in to see how things go here and to say that`ll post the answer asap. i`m buried under tonnes of work till Thursday or so...

:(

[AbdoRinbo]

Heh, no problem. These are busy times for students.

[Stanislaw]

I am back. My computer crashed and I have been very busy. I sent the letter. I read all of the other posts and am a bit perplexed. I could go to another librarry, but that is not the point, I was outraged that certain books would be censored, especially if they are neede to complete class assignments. I am also not sure why banning religiouse texts from a library would prevent an incident, like columbine.

I do apologize for being away, but stuff happens. :)

I shant let this rest until the problem has been resolved, either me loving big brother, or these texts being brought into the library.

[ajoe]

Unnecessary use of pornography (no need to describe a sexual course all that detailed.)

[Demona]

hello,

now where were we....


I think the social decay of communication goes hand-in-hand with the issue of censorship. I mean, my parents are always telling me that if I ever get arrested for drugs or something like that, they'll throw me out. Well, that's nice of them and all, but I'd rather they just talk to me instead of making lame threats.

i believe the term for such notions is generation gap...



The same idea can be applied to our schools: should we threaten to suspend students who clash with the administration, or should we try and resolve the problem? This is a question that many students ask themselves, but, of course, no one ever resolves anything. The administration isn't there to make friends, they are there to provide a safe enviroment, even if it rests on a false sense of security. And, ultimately, it is the students who suffer in the end because of the boundaries that are imposed on them.

as you have pointed out - the administration is there to provide safe environment, and not to satisfy evryone and everybody. they have their rules, which are supposed to be respected and so on... alas, the system is not going to change just because one person decided that he is right and not the administration.

students suffer if they are not able to solve the problem by themselves. i am sorry for such people.

and i would not call this sense of security a false one.

now, this conversation is starting to be extremely general, which i do not really like, because in this case the mere verbiage can go on for ever.



They are treated like pets in their first five or six years of schooling and then, with the completion of grammar school, they are looked at more as highly unstable masses of possibility. The aim of teachers is....etc.

this is all nice and well...but the point is what can YOU do about it? as you called it The Capitalist Machine...i do agree with this...and the other facts...but the point is that you cannot change anything within the political system (or prevent all those people profitting from all sorts of events) unless you are one of them.....but once you are there you`d probably forget why you went there in the first place.

as to teaching - any society establishes a model, according to which the kids are going to brough up and taught. i do not see anything illogical about it since the aim is to bring-up individuals like the people of the present society...not some alients, who have nothing to do with the afore-mentioned.




The question arises as to whether the current political structure would benefit at all from schools that produced independent and thinking citizens. If ......etc.

i would not say that they are lethal. and i think that you under-estimate the abilities of people. there are those who know and understand and question and what not. the point is that the system is just tooooooo well-established, be it a system of a state or of a school.

[Demona]

I read all of the other posts and am a bit perplexed. I could go to another librarry, but that is not the point, I was outraged that certain books would be censored, especially if they are neede to complete class assignments. I am also not sure why banning religiouse texts from a library would prevent an incident, like columbine.


peculiar...
did you read the school policy or library policy where it said that they must provide all the books required for any class assignments?
i`m pretty sure that the library besides the books in question does not have even half of the actual amount of literature required for the whole school to complete assignments. i`m not even talking about additional literature...

anyway... you probably feel now very satisfied and all....congratulations. this "juvenile maximalism" passes relatively fast anyway.
next time do try to consider the school`s point of view as well. it might help, you know...heh

[AbdoRinbo]

The 'generation gap' constitutes about 1% of the underlying problem behind conflicts that transpire between parents and children or teachers and students. A generation gap is when progress (or change) clashes with tradition, that's not the same as a communication breakdown. For example, my parents made the same stupid mistakes that I have (and even some I haven't), so, at worst, there should be a bridge of sympathy between our generation and theirs. I think the the fact that parents and school administrators are being given power over young people might explain why that bridge is seldom crossed.

Personally, I don't believe in 'progress', scientific or otherwise. The institutions of Family and Education seem to rest on a false sense of security because their purpose has meaning only insofar as they produce efficient workers (or drones) who can easily be reduced to Capitalist machinery. Security requires that people own things like property, people, ideas, &c, which is personified in the Capitalist. Kerouac showed how insecurity is congenial with anarchy in On the Road; how uplifting one's roots, losing one's sense of 'territorialism' (a strange term coined by Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guatari in the Marxist study of psychoanalysis, Anti-Oedipus, to define the state of human possession over the World), led to an anxiety that philosophers like Heidegger and Camus embraced (this is known as Existentialism). Anxiety is different from fear though: fear has an object, anxiety doesn't. Because it has no object of its own, anxiety is often the object of fear, a feeling of horror that, to many, is impossible embrace. If you've seen 'Apocalypse Now' you might recall Col. Kurtz' famous line, 'horror can be a friend, but if he is not, then he is truly an enemy to be feared'.

Schools censor thought, whether you choose to embrace this idea or not. They censor speech, too. They vehemently reject anxiety (political or whatever) and insecurity (social, &c.) with every joule of energy they can muster. A school's most important function is to undermine any idea, any force, that could call into question the motives of the State (in our case, the United States). For this reason you will not read about the federally funded terrorist network, the School of the Americanas, in South America that has been working under the iron curtain of the Reagan and Bush administrations for two decades. Al Quaeda pales in comparison to the ruthless savagery of this proxy force. Any christians here might be alarmed to know that thousands of Jesuit followers in El Salvadore were assassinated for supporting a self-imposed democratic regime. You will not learn of the ruthless butchering of human beings for supporting a government that refused to partake in the US political marionette. No, that would throw everything, including the War on Terror, into radical doubt. Of course, none of this could be kept secret or, even worse, made to seem like ridiculous conspiracy theorising, without the aid of schools.

Take Vietnam, for instance. Lyndon Johnson had the same ethnocentric mentality that Hitler had towards jews when it came to dealing with the Vietnamese. The list of war atrocities in Vietnam is only slightly shorter than the number of atrocities the US funded proxy army, the Contra force, committed in Nicaragua in 1987. What? Never heard of the Contras? That doesn't surprise me, the US can't pardon itself until Bush's son is out of office and all ties to those atrocities are severed. That's how the game works. The US admits to its mistakes only when they've become irrelevent. They apologized for Vietnam, it will never happen again. We can forget about it, move on with our lives. No one is responsible, it was just another mistake to ponder in our history books.

No, that's not right. We'll vote 'em out of office! Next election's coming up soon, we'll just get rid of the sour apples and straighten the whole mess out. Every vote counts. You can vote for Ralph Nader for a clean, honest political agenda. Yes! . . . but wait . . . Ralph Nader, the same Ralph who pushed for better seat belts and safer cars, and for a greener Earth, is guilty of taking favors from big corporations? Well, m-maybe he just wanted to help fund his campaign, try and compete with the Big Runners. It's not fair to Ralph. Well, to be honest, it isn't fair to anyone. If there's any evidence that corporations are running this country, it lay in the fact that political campaigns are privately funded; in other words, the ones with the most financial backing stand the best chance of winning. People are so easily coerced. But I thought we lived in an Individualist society where everyone made their own choices? Well, heh, Individualism, at best, calls for taking responsibility for one's own actions. But here in the US the media tells us which words to use, what ideas are popular, which ethics are sound; they control what we wear, what we think, what we eat, everything. And who owns the media? The corporations. [<gasp>]

Can't anything be done? Well, some people here aren't very optimistic, but then, optimism for reform never was very popular among the CEOs and the other Powers that be. Popularity is a contest the media plays with us, giving us something to live for, something to hold on to. Status. We're all trying to climb up that pillar of success and notoriety, it is climb or be climbed over. See, what happens is when you start thinking about the nature of status and whether it's good for human beings to divide themselves amongst each other, you wind up with a foot lodged in your face. In other words, the easiest way to the bottom of the pole is asking questions: where does this lead?, why are we climbing it?, can we all fit on the top? If there is any hope for revolution or reform, it will have to come from the below. I don't have an answer myself, I don't care much for politics.

[Sorry if I moved too far beyond the topic of censorship, it's not so simple an issue as you might think.]

[Rotty1021]

I am quite surprised that the high school in question doesn't allow religious writings. My high school library not only has expositories on religions, but also has The Bible Codes, Dead Sea Scrolls, controversial prophecies (ie Nostradamus'), and even the Old Testament. I don't think any written material ought to be prohibited; to do so would be unjust to the readers of the world.

[Demona]

The 'generation gap' constitutes about 1% of the underlying problem behind conflicts that transpire between parents and children or teachers and students. A generation gap is when progress (or change) clashes with tradition, that's not the same as a communication breakdown. For example, my parents made the same stupid mistakes that I have (and even some I haven't), so, at worst, there should be a bridge of sympathy between our generation and theirs.

heh...there should....but no one proved that it must be there....there are very many illogical things.....nothing to do about it.
and i`m sorry but i dont really think that the definition of the generation gap that you provided is accurate and can actually difine the notion. believe it or not but even people that were born and grew-up in the century of progress and technology are going to have their "gaps" with the children....it is not about traditions or whatever....i assume that the main point is in the fact that the adults have experience and therefore there come points when you cannot really explain anything (which, certainly, is a drawback) but just say "dont do this or that, or else..." sad....but true (c). of course this is perhaps not the best definition as well, but i wrote it just to illustrate the point that i have in mind.



I think the the fact that parents and school administrators are being given power over young people might explain why that bridge is seldom crossed.

and again i think that this is not really so....well, yes, administration and parents do have the power - but in most cases, as to the administration, you are able to avoid it. taking this particular example (this censorship thing at the school) - the guy had the ways to avoid it, didn`t he? yes, he did. but he did not use them. who`s to blame? basically if you follow the rules and do not get impudent you are probably are going to stay out of trouble with the administration as well as with parents. however, i do not advocate total resignation....but one just have to know when it is possible to make an issue of something and when not. unfortunately, the latter variant sounds more realistic.





Schools censor thought, whether you choose to embrace this idea or not. They censor speech, too. They vehemently reject anxiety (political or whatever) and insecurity (social, &c.) with every joule of energy they can muster. A school's most important function is to undermine any idea, any force, that could call into question the motives of the State (in our case, the United States). For this reason you will not read about the federally funded terrorist network, the School of the Americanas, in South America that has been working under the iron curtain of the Reagan and Bush administrations for two decades.

Now in this topic everyone....almost everyone talks about the way school restricts and bannes and forbids and what not. no one, however, suggested any other ways.....logically reasoned...ways according to which any school could teach stuff they have to teach them. + besides the facts and general knowledges, teach them how it is appropriate to behave in society....just to be able to exist there....unfortunately, the culture starts with taboos.
as an example: allowing to do everything at school is just as allowing kind to eat everything they like....and in this case they`ll probably be dead in a couple of weeks...






...I don't have an answer myself,
neither do I. but i can assure you that such things happen everywhere...


I don't care much for politics.

yeah...right...

[AbdoRinbo]

heh...there should....but no one proved that it must be there....there are very many illogical things.....nothing to do about it.

Good, then we are in agreement. :D


and i`m sorry but i dont really think that the definition of the generation gap that you provided is accurate and can actually difine the notion. believe it or not but even people that were born and grew-up in the century of progress and technology are going to have their "gaps" with the children....it is not about traditions or whatever....

I'm sorry, I just don't see any clash here. I never said (and I hope I never implied) that technology and progress could bridge the gap between parents and youths, in fact I'm pretty sure I pointed out that progress was a fallacy. But I did say that tradition and change are what separate each generation, you're right. It makes sense though, am I wrong? Life experience isn't what separates us, in fact it often has the contrary effect of bringing people closer together through shared learning. But there are some things that our parents, with all of their wisdom, will never understand (such as growing up computer literate, having access to a treasure trove of knowledge that they could only have dreamed of at our age). That's what a generation gap is, a change in the times.


i think that this is not really so....well, yes, administration and parents do have the power - but in most cases, as to the administration, you are able to avoid it. taking this particular example (this censorship thing at the school) - the guy had the ways to avoid it, didn`t he? yes, he did. but he did not use them. who`s to blame? basically if you follow the rules and do not get impudent you are probably are going to stay out of trouble with the administration as well as with parents. however, i do not advocate total resignation....but one just have to know when it is possible to make an issue of something and when not. unfortunately, the latter variant sounds more realistic.

You're only seeing one side of the power coin. The mere fact that he had to choose between rejecting someone else's will or satisfying it is proof enough that he was repressed by desires that were not his own. The power to keep someone alive and happy is just as overwhelming and oppressive as the power to punish. Remember, torment is not just biological. We are not born with an innate set of laws, we are forced into them. Some people naturally reject them, and who is to say whether they can help it or not?


Now in this topic everyone....almost everyone talks about the way school restricts and bannes and forbids and what not. no one, however, suggested any other ways.....logically reasoned...ways according to which any school could teach stuff they have to teach them. + besides the facts and general knowledges, teach them how it is appropriate to behave in society....just to be able to exist there....unfortunately, the culture starts with taboos.
as an example: allowing to do everything at school is just as allowing kind to eat everything they like....and in this case they`ll probably be dead in a couple of weeks...

Do I have to offer an alternative even if I know I'm not capable? I see what's wrong with the US government and its society, but who am I to say I know how to change it for the better? There are things they are doing wrong that I'm probably not even aware of, so how am I to fix them? I know that in the US you are taught how to function in a democratic society, that's the farthest aim. We are told what we can and can't do, what the penalities are for breaking the rules, and those who aren't kicked out are taught how to succeed at a certain vocation. Being told what not to do is just as important as being told what to do, and the question arises as to what would happen if we were given free reign over the Earth. Do you think we are innately evil and would destroy everything, including ourselves, given the first opportunity? Like I said, the issue with censorship is more complicated than banning books and blacklisting authors.


yeah...right...

Alright, I'll admit my guilty pleasure is Noam Chomsky. Other than that I think it just a popularity contest.

[Koa]

Chomsky? The linguist?
(i have a feeling i shouldn't just read the last 2 sentences of a thread...but the rest is so long and i lost track so long ago...)

[Stanislaw]

I finally have my computer back and running properly. I am glad to hear that other schools do have these texts. And to answer a question, It does not say anywhere in the school policies about needing to have certain books, but it also does not speek about censored books. I am also not doing this just to feel good. But to set a wrong right. These books are needed for variouse classes and I feel that they should be availiable to the students.

[AbdoRinbo]

Chomsky? The linguist?

Chomsky the Linguist and Political Dissident (capitalized like a Comic Book Hero).

[Demona]

Good, then we are in agreement. :D

:yes: :)



I'm sorry, I just don't see any clash here. I never said (and I hope I never implied) that technology and progress could bridge the gap between parents and youths, in fact I'm pretty sure I pointed out that progress was a fallacy. But I did say that tradition and change are what separate each generation, you're right. It makes sense though, am I wrong?

perhaps i misunderstood something. i admit, but what i was trying to say is that despite the fact that parents might be technically advanced and just as good as kids are with all those new thingies - it does not necessarely mean that they will understand each other. i`m pretty confused with the rich choise of points....so pardon me... heh


Life experience isn't what separates us, in fact it often has the contrary effect of bringing people closer together through shared learning.

aha! it brings people together if they are capable of normal communication! which does not really sound like truth, to my mind...



But there are some things that our parents, with all of their wisdom, will never understand (such as growing up computer literate, having access to a treasure trove of knowledge that they could only have dreamed of at our age). That's what a generation gap is, a change in the times.

now here goes the point that i stated above: being computer literate does not really change anything. yes they (meaning parents) might as well be computer literate and whatnot, but it does not mean that misunderstandings are not going to take place. i do agree though that the generation gap is the change of the times, but i also think that it should be perceived differently, that is, you are right about this technology things from the point of view of change - meaning that since the things change they influence peoples way of thinking and understanding life and generally any kind of facts. since times change adults also have the possibility of acquiring things that they did not have, but with this the generation gap is not becoming less. therefore, i suggest that the things you brough as an example only influence the way of thinking and understanding things, and this difference (we should understand that growing up with something and acquiring something later are different things) is the core of the so called generation gap.
i`m sorry for my confused articulation....i just dont have enough time to make it sound normal.



You're only seeing one side of the power coin. The mere fact that he had to choose between rejecting someone else's will or satisfying it is proof enough that he was repressed by desires that were not his own. The power to keep someone alive and happy is just as overwhelming and oppressive as the power to punish. Remember, torment is not just biological. We are not born with an innate set of laws, we are forced into them. Some people naturally reject them, and who is to say whether they can help it or not?

you are not quite right in stating that. i do see the other side and i stated in one of my very first posts. it is just everyone else seems to reject the side that i`m trying to present. that is it.
exactly, we are forced into these laws. but if you want to make something of your life i`m afraid you have to follow them.



Do I have to offer an alternative even if I know I'm not capable? I see what's wrong with the US government and its society, but who am I to say I know how to change it for the better? There are things they are doing wrong that I'm probably not even aware of, so how am I to fix them? I know that in the US you are taught how to function in a democratic society, that's the farthest aim. We are told what we can and can't do, what the penalities are for breaking the rules, and those who aren't kicked out are taught how to succeed at a certain vocation. Being told what not to do is just as important as being told what to do, and the question arises as to what would happen if we were given free reign over the Earth. Do you think we are innately evil and would destroy everything, including ourselves, given the first opportunity? Like I said, the issue with censorship is more complicated than banning books and blacklisting authors.

of course you dont. but in this case be careful with criticism. it is very easy to criticise - but try to create a system of your own that would satisfy everyone and every criteria, that functions perfectly and achieves its goals with no errors.
but you are aware of the school system and obviously you are not really pleased with that....how would you fix it? let`s not again dive in verbiage but try to deal with more particulare issues.
yes, i think so. everything depends on the culture, on the way a person is brought up....but you cannot guarantee that everyone is going to be equal, happy and so...there is always this balance...that has to be controlled...

i never said that censorship is not a complicated issue i was just trying to keep the conversation tied to this particular example in other case it is just going to expand too much. that`s it.

[Demona]

I finally have my computer back and running properly. I am glad to hear that other schools do have these texts. And to answer a question, It does not say anywhere in the school policies about needing to have certain books, but it also does not speek about censored books. I am also not doing this just to feel good. But to set a wrong right. These books are needed for variouse classes and I feel that they should be availiable to the students.

right....but did you find out precisely how the library chooses the books? are they obliged to provide all the materials that are required for completing tasks?
next point...the whole business started (message on the forum i mean) on 10th of September. obviously, it took you some time to compile the letter, to send it and, as your last post proves, to read the policies (not that this is generally useless, but, i suppose, you`d never even think of spending time on that be it not for this case) and so on.......imagine! you could have spent all this time reading the books that you wanted to read....finding another library and books would probably take about an hour if not less...(in case you know particularly what you are looking for). i wonder if you did bother to find the books in another library or just told your lecturer that the school library does not have them....anyway, i dont mean to be ironic or what ever...but it is just that i still think that apart from the censorship issue this is not really a point to make a fuss about. besides, as far as i understood the conclusion that the books are banned was your idea...right? did you ever think that there might be another reason why they are not there? as far as i remeber the lady answered you that it was a public school...maybe she meant that it was not a national library, which is sort of obliged to have a really wide choise of books...