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Stanislaw
09-09-2003, 07:18 PM
I am searching for an answer to this and any help would be greatly apreciated! :-?

Shea
09-10-2003, 08:57 AM
Hebrews 11:1
1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

This whole chapter deals with faith. (But notice how faith is always acted upon.) ;)

Arteum
09-10-2003, 10:15 AM
Suppose you are in a dark and unfamiliar room; you stretch out your hands in front of you and walk slowly, listening to sounds and feeling the ground with your feet. When the darkness and suspense become no loger bearable, or when it requires too much work of your senses and you do not wish them to work hard, you shut off your visual, tactile, auditory, olfactory senses and take a giant leap into the darkest and the most unsavoury part of the room hoping that you will somehow land on a comfortable couch in a magnificent garden. This is Faith.

Stanislaw
09-10-2003, 07:00 PM
These are both usefull responses, but what does faith mean for an individual. I know what I should be believing, but I am not sure If I believe in the exact words or the actual meaning. It is very difficult to try to have faith, when faith is not a clear idea. :-?

Shea
09-11-2003, 08:05 AM
For me, faith is pretty much what's been stated here. But it's also the courage to do what is difficult even when it dosen't make any sense, especially to others. That why I like the 11 chapter of Hebrews. I think that the most amazing example of faith was Abraham, when he was commanded to sacrifice his son Issac. Here was the promised son who was to begin the promise of unumbered descendants, and yet Abraham was ready to sacrifice him for God.:o

But Job is my favorite Biblical character on faith. Despite all the persecutions that everyone put on him, he still hung in there. At this point in my life, he's the one that I can connect with. (primarily because I don't have any children yet.) ;)

Stanislaw
09-12-2003, 06:19 PM
Who is Job? :oops:

Chardata
09-12-2003, 08:11 PM
Job is a man that was holy in God's eyes in the Old Test. God allowed Job to be tested and 'torchered' by Satan inorder to prove to Satan that Job truly blieved in God. Almost everything was taken away from Job...including most of his family. He didn't understand why God was allowing this to happen to him. Even Job's wife told him to curse God and die. He did not do that. He had faith/believed that God was in control...and he was.

Shea
09-12-2003, 10:36 PM
Go ahead and read the book of Job in the Old Testament, Stanislaw, it's really inspiring! :D

We just had a great discussion in our Bible study class tonight. We were studying Romans 5, and we were talking about hope. Paul talks here about how we have hope in Christ for eternal salvation because of His sacrifice. We were likening it to the hopes that people have in this world, like a better job, a better car, house, etc.... But this hope we were discussing is one that can never diminish and will never be taken from us so long as we are in Christ. But I especially liked this passage:


3Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope.


Even though we suffer, it builds us up, so we rejoice!

I think that could be added to the definition of faith. ;)

Stanislaw
09-13-2003, 02:02 PM
Thank you for the advice, I have not read the Old Testament for a long time (actaully my Grandmother read it to me in polish when I was 4 or 5)
I relly should read the bible a bit more often... :oops:

Shea
09-13-2003, 04:14 PM
I always had a hard time remembering to read the Bible too. But since I've been chatting here, this sort of makes me delve into it. ;)

Chardata
09-14-2003, 12:23 PM
I agree with Shea. Read Job...like mentioned before...Romans and James. Those are very accusing books but realistic. Especially James. Romans is more uplifting and encouraging...but both are very good.

fayefaye
10-04-2003, 08:07 AM
i think faith is believing in something with all ur heart, even though there's a large chance ur wrong. to put ur *** on the line and not be scared. i read a quote somewhere, but i can't remember it.... faith is wanting to do something, knowing u probably won't make it, and then doing it anyway! )

Isagel
10-17-2003, 05:17 AM
Faith can be seen as a belief that evrything is meaningful. Even in hard times and suffering. In that respect I see a parallell to Antonoskys theory about sence of coherence. Antonosky wanted to find out how people can keep their sanity and mental health during awful conditions like torture and concentration camps. (and it might be interesting to compare the theory to Jobs suffering or Jesus)

I have copied a short version of the theory here.

But, of course this is "one side of the coin". There is also a darker part of belief and faith, as with every aspect of human emotion. Firm belief and lack of tolerance have led people to commit horrible crimes, in the name of the greater good. The belief that the meaning will reveal itself in time and prove to be good can make people loose sight of what is happening now and what they really are doing. (Of course some might argue that that isn´t faith but fanatism)

But still, even considering that aspect - faith helps us to strive beyond the things we think we are capable of. It takes people through the dark times.

I wish I had it. But somehow I lost it along the way. Perhaps I can build myself a new one.

http://www.rcm.org.uk/data/info_centre/data/virtual_institute_salutogenesis.htm

"Sense of coherence: sense of wellbeing
Collectively, resources promote the development and maintenance of a strong 'sense of coherence', which is synonymous with health. The stronger the sense of coherence a person has, the better ability they have to employ cognitive, affective and instrumental strategies which are likely to improve coping2 and thus wellbeing. There is not one coping strategy but many, and a person who copes well, who has a strong sense of coherence, is able to select the best way of dealing with the particular stressor. Each person's sense of coherence, or sense of wellbeing, requires certain inherent prerequisites for coping successfully, as follows:

1) Meaningfulness: the deep feeling that life makes sense emotionally; that life's demands are worthy of commitment. It is essentially seeing coping as desirable.

2) Manageability: the extent to which people feel they have the resources to meet the demands, or feeling that they know where to go to get help.

3) Comprehensibility: the extent to which a person finds or structures their world to be understandable, meaningful, orderly and consistent instead of chaotic, random and unpredictable.3

The extent to which a person develops these prerequisites - the extent to which a person has pervasive, enduring and dynamic feelings of confidence that things will work out as well as can be reasonably expected - is determined by that person's sense of coherence. "

Stanislaw
10-18-2003, 08:23 PM
Interesting. Faith means to take risks with no visible end in sight, even if the odds are against you, what I have learned from reading these.

Would defending your own religion be considered an act of faith, even if it meant murder. I am speaking about the labled "terrorists".

Or is faith strictly following all laws set forth by ones religion?

I am not sure...

fayefaye
10-19-2003, 01:20 AM
Interesting. Faith means to take risks with no visible end in sight, even if the odds are against you, what I have learned from reading these.

Would defending your own religion be considered an act of faith, even if it meant murder. I am speaking about the labled "terrorists".

Or is faith strictly following all laws set forth by ones religion?

I am not sure...

Defending your religion to the point of murder would most certainly not be considered faith because most religions state that someone cannot kill, and hence it's still wrong; they're just trying to use religion to justify their behaviour.

I don't think faith would be following all laws to the letter, though I suppose u r supposed to try to do that. Faith is just believing, with all your heart.

Chardata
10-19-2003, 11:46 AM
faith can also be defined as:
believing in something quite strongly eventhough you may not understand the reasoning behind what you're believing.

Take this for a small scale example. When you get in your car...you turn on the egintion...right? You believe that your car will start...are you sure? Usually yes but you can never be for sure. You don't know exactly when your car will turn on (you know it'll turn on when you turn the key but how long after you hold the key turned?) Do you seriously think how your car turns on while your starting your car? Or if your like me you just figured out that the transmition controls the gears in your car...so you don't know how the car starts. :oops:
That is faith...you believe your car will turn on but you can never be for sure that it will.

Shea
10-20-2003, 09:38 AM
Defending your religion to the point of murder would most certainly not be considered faith because most religions state that someone cannot kill, and hence it's still wrong; they're just trying to use religion to justify their behaviour.

I don't think faith would be following all laws to the letter, though I suppose u r supposed to try to do that. Faith is just believing, with all your heart.

I'm not so sure I agree with every thing you said. Although the terrorists belief is perverted and wrong, it's still faith and even adhears to the definition you gave (which I do agree with).

Stanislaw
10-20-2003, 07:18 PM
I think I get it. :-? What about satanism?

I don't mean to be offensive, I am just trying to learn. ;)

fayefaye
10-22-2003, 07:25 AM
I suppose that could be counted, after shea pointed out the problem with my last post. wink But faith should be believing in something properly, not convuluting it. I think that satanists are probably more people who don't really believe in anything at all, but I just don't see how anyone can believe in the devil, so hey.

wastinaway
11-05-2003, 12:41 PM
For what it's worth, Stan, I grew up in the church and learned all the theological arguments for faith and all the scriptural definitions and still found myself flipping out when situations were beyond my control and worrying about every little thing. I had to ask myself why I should tell anyone about being a Christian if it meant that i would be heaping more frustration on his or her life. Here's what broke it open for me--Faith is trusting and believing the God is good. No matter the situation or circumstance if it doesn't work out to what I thought was best God is in control and he is for me and seeking what is best for me. We must understand that God is not obligated to hear prayer--he does it because he is good. He is not obligated to sustain our lives--he does it because he is good. He is not obligated to love us--he does it because he is good.

Dyrwen
11-05-2003, 06:31 PM
"Faith: belief in something without evidence or even inspite of evidence."

fayefaye
11-07-2003, 07:55 AM
about the whole terrorists thing; they use the concept of faith to justify their actions, but it's not really faith in their religions that cause them to do that because their religions actually tell them NOT to.

Dyrwen
11-07-2003, 11:30 PM
If one has faith in what they believe their God says they are supposed to do, and they do so because of their faith in God's word, they are acting according to God's plan.

Faith does not justify their actions, it merely reasons the explanation for why they did their actions.

fayefaye
11-08-2003, 12:41 PM
ur not talkin bout the terrorists r u?

Stanislaw
11-19-2003, 12:15 AM
:)
I believe that I have a grip on faith, as a definition, but I have been discussing this with others and came to an interesting idea. Could it be that one has to have faith that they interperate the "correct" meaning from their religiouse text?

Also here is another question that was generated.

Can athiests have faith?

:confused:

I am just seeking the truth, If I come across as obnoxiouse, it is not my intention.

fayefaye
12-06-2003, 12:02 AM
Look, if they don't believe in anything, what is there to have faith in? Maybe they can have faith in friends, or in people generally, but not in a religious sense. Here's an old diary extract of mine I found:
To have courage is to try when there is a large chance of failure.
To have faith is to know you will succeed.

It's shocking because nothing I write is ever even remotely coherent, least of all in my diary, and that actually makes sense. I'm quite proud I wrote a sentence that is actually lucid.

Dyrwen
12-06-2003, 05:22 AM
Well, technically any "strong atheist" (i.e. One whom says there are no gods and absolutely no possibility of gods (whatever 'gods' are anyways)) has faith that there are no gods.

Wheras a "weak atheist" (i.e. One whom says there is neither evidence nor proof of gods (whatever 'gods' are described as) to suggest they exist) has no need for a faith. As the existence of a deity is possible, albeit not probable in their lack of belief. They're willing to conceed to not know everything, rather than claim that there is no god, they say: I hold a lack of belief in that which you call gods. Prove they exist, or I shall continue to lack belief.

Did that help at all?

Stanislaw
12-07-2003, 12:59 AM
So how could an atheist live life, knowing that in their mind that there is nothing after they die. What is the point?

Dyrwen
12-07-2003, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by Stanislaw
So how could an atheist live life, knowing that in their mind that there is nothing after they die. What is the point?
The point, as most atheists would suppose, is to "live". You are alive now, so why not experience it's differences and wonders? Even if life sucks, it'd beat the alternative, never existing. Unless you'd rather not live at all, then death is a nice thought. I don't really fear death anymore now that I have nothing to look forward to in death. Nothing to fear, just a stopping of life.

The point, it seems, to life is to live for what life is, no matter what it is. To live for death and the chance at an afterlife is no life at all. I'd say, if there is an afterlife, what's the point of life? Most would say to prepare to decide what realm of the afterlife you're going into, but what of the many religions with just one realm? Where you just go to a heaven, or perhaps just go to a Hell. There are many religions with only one afterlife alternative. Why would you live at all if you knew you'd be alive forever in the afterlife? Quite frankly, I appreciate my life much more knowing this is the only chance I have at it.

People spend their whole life seeking a point to living, but that is something you must find on your own while living life. Most stick to the point that Life is about the journey, not the destination. The end of life is not important, as no one knows how it will end, so just live life for what is always has been. Life.. not death.

Stanislaw
12-07-2003, 01:44 AM
But from a catholic view, shouldn't you think about the end so you know what to do to get to heaven as opposed to hell.

Dyrwen
12-07-2003, 01:52 AM
Originally posted by Stanislaw
But from a catholic view, shouldn't you think about the end so you know what to do to get to heaven as opposed to hell.
The whole reward vs. punishment idea undermines ones' actions in life. If all you live for is what the outcome of your actions at death give, then you live for death nonetheless.

From your Catholic viewpoint, it's a reward v. punishment concept, rather than just an end. It brings little meaning to a life with a concept of an afterlife seeing as it is merely life for death. For the outcome after you die. You don't "know" if you're correct, you merely presume it because you believe you're right. In yet another thought, you could also be wrong and be living your life for a god that doesn't even exist or possibly is just the "wrong god" completely, living for an afterlife outcome to which may not actually bring about good, but rather, evil.

What would the point of life be if you live completely according to how another says merely because it's said to bring you a happy afterlife? To live for an after life is still merely living for death, it brings no point to your life other than to focus on the outcome of death rather than the way of life.

Stanislaw
12-07-2003, 02:00 AM
Personally I feel that life is infact pointless. We are hear and can't leave untill God lets us. It is like Jail.

Dyrwen
12-07-2003, 02:31 AM
Eh, it's thought like that which started Existentialism.

Dyrwen
12-07-2003, 02:33 AM
Originally posted by fayefaye
ur not talkin bout the terrorists r u?
Didn't see this at the time. Yes, I spoke of them.

Stanislaw
12-07-2003, 02:40 AM
Existentialism? how so.

Dyrwen
12-07-2003, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by Stanislaw
Existentialism? how so.

"Existentialism is a philosophical movement characterized by an emphasis on individuality, individual freedom, and subjectivity."-link (http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism)

Existentialism mainly seemed to rise after a seemingly bad time in history when everyone felt left by god. So they chose to live for themselves, and those that felt god still existed, chose to call life a punishment. i.e. "Life is Hell."

To feel life is punishment would be the early stages of either Satanism (rebelling against the deity), Existentialism (finding oneself a path to life on your own), or possibly just Nihilism (life is nothing, it all sucks).

Just a perspective from my angle here, there are obviously many more religions/philosophies that can be factored in.

Stanislaw
12-07-2003, 02:53 AM
Personally I feel life sucks, and that the end is when you are released to a better place, depending on how you treated fellow inmates.

Dyrwen
12-07-2003, 02:55 AM
Originally posted by Stanislaw
Personally I feel life sucks, and that the end is when you are released to a better place, depending on how you treated fellow inmates.
Ah, well now we've reached a point of "karma" so to speak. Basically that's all you have explained of this life, if it were seen as less pessimistic, and more of a reincarnation at death, you'd find yourself at Buddhism. Hehe.. seems you fit various areas.

Stanislaw
12-07-2003, 03:17 AM
I never realised that. I always assumed that, that is what christianity is based on.

Dyrwen
12-07-2003, 03:28 AM
Seeing as Buddhism came about 500 years before Christ and technically the "golden rule" of treating others how you want to be treated is merely an act of co-existence.

To treat other "good" is to keep society happy, to treat them "bad" is to collapse society bringing about hazards. Most religions just re-iterate common human instinct.

Stanislaw
12-08-2003, 09:05 PM
That kind of minimizes realigion.;)

Does not religion also explain why the world goes around?

Dyrwen
12-09-2003, 01:10 PM
Not really. Heh.. few have attempted to delve into it that scientifically. ;)

We all feel our opinions deserve validity, some feel they're so right they need a religion to let others experience it. But some are just fine without one at all..heh.

Religion explains how to live life. That's about it's only purpose.

Stanislaw
12-09-2003, 10:22 PM
Okay, It doesn't do much harm though. I am religiouse and attempt to follow what my religion preaches, and it really doesn't do me any harm. I think the religions of old were hypocritical, but modern religion isn't that bad.

Dyrwen
12-09-2003, 11:08 PM
Yep, long as you stay in Canada, you'll probably never see religion do much harm.

Outside of psychos whom beat the devil out of people or possibly blow up buildings. But that's just American news..heh. Go with what works for you..

Stanislaw
12-10-2003, 10:52 PM
Okay, I see your point, but mainstreem religion, average joe christian. Terrorist aren't truly following their faith.

9/11 scared us here two.

Dyrwen
12-11-2003, 02:34 AM
Ha... Whatever you say man.

Their god allowed them the remotest chance of being accepted into heaven through their "works" of faith for their god's movement.

Nothing wrong with them following their faith. Extremist muslims bomb people all the time, and the Christians used to do the same back in the Crusades and for a straight 500 years.

Nothing new with people chosing who is "really" following their faith.

Stanislaw
12-12-2003, 12:29 AM
I guess my comment was kinda hypocritical. Sorry. I don't know alot about the muslim faith, I was brought up catholic. And the catholics did create alot of crap, holly wars, and all. I guess it is my own interpertation of my religion, and I judge the other members, which is also hypocritical. Now I feel bad.:(

Dyrwen
12-12-2003, 12:53 AM
Well, I'll give the cheap shot of "Religion can do that to folks.."

Sometimes it's best to follow what you believe, because it's better judged by the actions of your own self than the actions of whom you follow.

Stanislaw
12-12-2003, 12:57 AM
Good point, Thanks. I guess everyone has to make their own choices rather than follow some one else.


P.S.

I like your avatar, the brain is awesome.

Dyrwen
12-12-2003, 01:06 AM
Indeed. He's quite the symbolic figure for me..in many facets. heh..

Stanislaw
12-12-2003, 08:57 PM
You try to take over the world every evening?:D

Dyrwen
12-12-2003, 10:54 PM
In my own little way... heh. Just a dream of mine, for now.

Stanislaw
12-17-2003, 09:52 PM
Oh well, good luck!

subterranean
12-19-2003, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by Dyrwen
"Existentialism is a philosophical movement characterized by an emphasis on individuality, individual freedom, and subjectivity."-link (http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism)

Existentialism mainly seemed to rise after a seemingly bad time in history when everyone felt left by god. So they chose to live for themselves, and those that felt god still existed, chose to call life a punishment. i.e. "Life is Hell."



There are two kinds of existensialism (which I know so far), The Christian-Existensialism (such as Soren Kierkegaard) and The Atheist-Existensialism (Jean Paul Sartre is one of the founder). They're both have similiarities but of course, from their names we can tell that the they contradict each other.

subterranean
12-20-2003, 12:56 AM
I've been doing a philosophy project. One of the topic which interest me alot is this question concerning Faith and Reason. To me, faith is like a stance toward some claim that is not, at least presently, demonstrable by reason. The object of faith is "Truth" (you can call it God if you want). I have learned that it is possible to hold a religious belief simply on the basis either of faith alone or of reason alone. Moreover, one can even lack faith in God or deny His existence, but still find solace in the practice of religion.

BloodStaindRose
12-23-2003, 01:34 AM
faith is the belief in any object or person without having proof or eye witness!
faith is what keeps people alive faith is hard to keep sometime but without you have nothing! Whether you believe in God or any other higher being; it gives you something to lean on!
i question my faith quite often but when something bad happens it always comes back! it takes time to discover your faith but when you do make sure you are having faith in what you believe in and not what others are telling you to believe in!

AbdoRinbo
12-23-2003, 03:22 AM
Originally posted by BloodStaindRose
faith is what keeps people alive

When we die, we all go up heaven's chimney and take a ride down the razzle-berry waterfall.

den
12-23-2003, 04:17 AM
Sartre rawks, long live `Nausea'. \W/

That is all people... carry on...




Originally posted by subterranean
There are two kinds of existensialism (which I know so far), The Christian-Existensialism (such as Soren Kierkegaard) and The Atheist-Existensialism (Jean Paul Sartre is one of the founder). They're both have similiarities but of course, from their names we can tell that the they contradict each other.

AbdoRinbo
12-23-2003, 05:14 PM
Carry on? Y-you sure about that?

subterranean
12-29-2003, 10:30 PM
Den, I won't just quote that statement of mine if I were you. Too risky ;)

MacBeth
01-06-2004, 06:48 PM
The whole point of faith is the lack of clarity which it entails; the divine, unslovable mysteries were made so for a reason. Eg., it is said that as St. Augustine roamed the beach one day trying to slove the mystery of the holy trinity, (how one being could be three at once???) he met a young boy who said (roughly): "I've got a ridde for you! Try to fit the entire sea into this sea-shell."
The relpy was, "that's impossible."
The boy then told him, "It's more likely to happen than you unearthing the answers to divine mysteries."

BloodStaindRose
01-08-2004, 11:10 PM
thats a really nice story
it sums everthing up and is totally true!

surf boy
01-10-2004, 10:36 PM
Alright, go outside, wait 'til the bars empty out . . . go home, turn on Fox T.V., and realize that the Bible was written by people dumber than all these motherfùckers.

Dyrwen
01-11-2004, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by surf boy
Alright, go outside, wait 'til the bars empty out . . . go home, turn on Fox T.V., and realize that the Bible was written by people dumber than all these motherfùckers.
Best argument for why the Bible is wrong, ever.

serpico
01-19-2004, 02:12 PM
Say a prayer for surf boy.

Stanislaw
01-22-2004, 11:02 PM
And then Holy War his ***. Religion isn't dumb, it is simply an explanation for life, and simple rules for living life properly.

Gozeta
01-23-2004, 02:09 AM
Yet science is another explanation to life. Does the bible mention anything about dinosours being created. Why would it leave out something like that? NOW most people who don't believe in God these days believe in the Soup theory. Which started the chemical reaction for life to dispurse on earth. PLus the combination of evolution being the key to it all.

A poem test
01-31-2004, 11:44 PM
Life without a question
Evidence of the unseen
Like sitting on a chair
Without "oh what does this mean?"
You may not understand
And yet still you don't demean
You sit down on that chair
And believe in the unseen

-A poem test

star blue
02-01-2004, 04:21 AM
you sit in that chair, shakespeare.

A poem test
02-02-2004, 03:16 PM
Star blue- you sit in that chair, shakespeare.

Does Shakespeare have a poem like this?
Please share it I don't want to miss
out on such a beautiful poem
That is very much like my own

subterranean
02-03-2004, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by Gozeta
Yet science is another explanation to life. Does the bible mention anything about dinosours being created. Why would it leave out something like that? NOW most people who don't believe in God these days believe in the Soup theory. Which started the chemical reaction for life to dispurse on earth. PLus the combination of evolution being the key to it all.


That theory is outdated :rolleyes: . Do you ever wonder that you yourself is also perhaps being fooled by those people who claimed that religions are false?

Stanislaw
02-10-2004, 11:14 PM
Why attack religion? There is nothing wrong about it, on the most part the people are peacefull, and only radicals go around hurting people, LIKE atheists, only the radicals go hurting people. Attacking someone else's religouse views only creates conflict in an already war torn world. That is why many people died in the second world war, persecution of religion.

Opinions are like a s s h o l e s everyone has one, most people don't need two, so don't force yours on others.

I believe in God, you may not, that doesn't matter to me, why should it bug you?


By the way I am a bit of a hypocrite, so don't follow my example, only my words;) , but seriously, to each his own eh? Let live and Let live, ( I am running out of cliches). Let's just be friendly eh?

star blue
02-11-2004, 12:37 AM
yeah, the radicals are the only ones to blame . . . what an ingenius concept. never mind the nazis and the right-wing fascists.

sloegin
02-11-2004, 03:46 AM
I have two *ssholes. One for daytime and one for the night.

star blue
02-11-2004, 12:17 PM
if it weren't for sloegin's ruthlessly absurd comic relief, I'd be poppin a cap in your a:ss right now, stanislaw.

DumbLikeAPoet
02-11-2004, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by Stanislaw
Why attack religion? There is nothing wrong about it, on the most part the people are peacefull, and only radicals go around hurting people, LIKE atheists, only the radicals go hurting people. Attacking someone else's religouse views only creates conflict in an already war torn world. That is why many people died in the second world war, persecution of religion.

Opinions are like a s s h o l e s everyone has one, most people don't need two, so don't force yours on others.

I believe in God, you may not, that doesn't matter to me, why should it bug you?


Good post. Seriously there is some real aggression going on around here lately.

Jonus

Stanislaw
02-11-2004, 08:33 PM
Thanks Jonus.

Now, Star Blue;


yeah, the radicals are the only ones to blame . . . what an ingenius concept. never mind the nazis and the right-wing fascists.

Ahem... I believe those were radicals as well, what is wrong with what I said?

Seriosly, if you want fisticuffs, just come out and say it, don't dance around.

star blue
02-12-2004, 01:18 AM
radicals are left-wing, stan my-man.

DumbLikeAPoet
02-12-2004, 10:18 AM
rad·i·cal
Favoring or effecting fundamental or revolutionary changes in current practices, conditions, or institutions: radical political views.

I know you're not an idiot so how about learning the proper definition of words before trying to tell other people what they mean.

Jonus

star blue
02-12-2004, 11:49 AM
hey jonus, I busted my a:ss in policy debate for four years all over the country, I even debated at harvard. I'm well acquainted with the political vernacular.

but if you're the expert, then you should know that fascists aren't radical . . . they're ultra-conservative.

star blue
02-12-2004, 12:00 PM
and conservatives don't like change . . .

subterranean
02-16-2004, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by Stanislaw
Why attack religion? There is nothing wrong about it, on the most part the people are peacefull, and only radicals go around hurting people, LIKE atheists, only the radicals go hurting people. Attacking someone else's religouse views only creates conflict in an already war torn world. That is why many people died in the second world war, persecution of religion.

Oh I don't know Stan, a friend of mine is an Agnostic and He's a very nice man..nicer than other people I know who claimed to be good follower of an established religion. So the generalisation is somehow a flaw :)
I see your point about the radicals though, I met some of them in college. They refused to shake hands and even moved away when you approach them..religious reason they say.

Stanislaw
02-17-2004, 07:54 PM
I say don't instantly judge people by the mere mention of religion. There are wackos on both sides, even some wackos are nice:p , but you get the idea. It is very easy for a minority that is vocal to destroy what the others have created.

star blue
02-17-2004, 10:46 PM
the fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth.

subterranean
02-17-2004, 11:19 PM
Yea? No wonder you keep doing this 'rebirth' thing in this forum..destroyed then coming as another 'being'. If you get my point
:rolleyes:

Stanislaw
02-18-2004, 10:08 PM
To create the destruction suffering must take place, don't know about you but I don't like suffering.

star blue
02-18-2004, 11:03 PM
just look at america right after the great depression ended . . . everyone was overflowing with life and purpose. some economists even say a depression every century is the only way to prevent rapid demoralization.

Stanislaw
02-18-2004, 11:21 PM
The only reason the GD ended was because of a man named Hitler and his war.

star blue
02-18-2004, 11:31 PM
don't you think that's just a little suspect? talk about strange coincidences.

Stanislaw
03-01-2004, 11:50 PM
War has always driven the economy.

odersven
03-03-2004, 02:17 PM
To answer this question for the person who posted it,

You have to read first the bible and then Fear and Trembling by Keirkegaard.

That is faith.

Not what you first think of Abraham.

Also, if you have to ask what faith is, you can be sure you can never have it. I never can because I did the same thing.


also

"don't know about you but I don't like suffering."

This is not faith. This is fear and trembling. And god makes him fear death because man invented Hell. Man use to fear living in hell on earth; when did there become a hell in earth? When humans tried to touch a god.

bbq13
03-05-2004, 07:40 AM
faith is something that no one can ever take away from you... no matter what happens or where you go, your faith will be tested... but don't falter... like i said, this is something that's not supposed to be taken away from you...

amuse
03-05-2004, 12:16 PM
odersven, one needn't be a christian/read the bible to have faith. please take that kindly; i'm not being antagonistic.

Cassandra
03-05-2004, 12:58 PM
Amuse is right. There are many different faiths and they all need to be accepted as such.

atiguhya padma
03-05-2004, 07:32 PM
bbq13 said;

<faith is something that no one can ever take away from you>

I have known people who have lost their faith. Are you trying to tell me they never had faith in the first place???

Cassandra
03-06-2004, 06:04 AM
Maybe it was lost, not taken. I think people can take your faith or make you doubt. They come along with clever arguements you can't beat and it could make you unsure. Besides which faith canges all the time, it is not taken away but paarts are changed by people which is similar.

Gozeta
03-14-2004, 01:16 AM
Faith is something that you believe that cannot be proven by sight, smell, touch, etc. Ever heard the term Blind Faith?

amuse
03-14-2004, 01:23 AM
Welcome back.

Gozeta
03-14-2004, 01:31 AM
oh thanks! I'm almost back home to the states! Iraq is definetly not a place to be in. Though because of it. I think I have grown much since I first came here

odersven
03-21-2004, 02:58 PM
My mentioning of the bible was not for any type of requirement to give/be able to have faith. Since this book is the foundation for all modern religions that believe in the hebrew god tradition, it does serve an extreme purpose for understanding western thought and finding out your own aspects of faith in relation to the hebrew god. Most people who mention faith, are talking about the kind dealing with this type of god and this aspect of faith. Which was what I thought I had at one point in my life. I would not say the bible in the whole is to be read to understand faith.

Yet, I think it is an extremely important factor however, that a person reads of Abraham in the old testament. Then, to read Keirkegaard's Fear and Trembling. He gives the best description of faith I have ever come across.

ruchir
04-05-2004, 04:24 AM
Faith could decay and again reflourish.
I quote a poem from my very few english writings,
i started up with grivances in first two stanzas and ended up in submission, and i painted it with the second shade out of love. That reflects my faith.

-----------------

My faith in you
was not replied
when it got
a slap.

Earnest feelings
dont get reply
when they get
a slap.

As i never feel
in struggle
for my pride
with my own.

As for each slap o motherheart
you shower countless kisses on my cheeks.

-----------

IWilKikU
04-05-2004, 11:38 AM
So to you faith is a balance between punishment and reward?

Miranda
04-05-2004, 06:54 PM
I think faith is being certain of what you believe and acting upon it. I don't think that it is a 'leap in the dark' because that speaks of uncertainty, not knowing where you will land. The only time you would leap in the dark in faith, would be if you were in a situation where that was the only way out.and then that leap would have a surety in it, that no matter what happened, when you leapt, God would keep you safe. To leap for no reason at all, would be tempting God. But to leap when it was the only way, is to trust Him to take care of you.

Like King David, when he wrote 'Yes, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me.' This is how I think of faith anyway. Sometimes you walk in the dark not knowing properly where you are going but have the certainty that God is ahead leading and keeping you saf

IWilKikU
04-06-2004, 08:03 PM
Faith is believing something unprovable so strongly that you are willing to die for it. No one would be willing to die to defend their belief that Paris is the capital of France, or that 1+1=2. People are willing to die for things that will never be able to be proven.

atiguhya padma
04-07-2004, 07:19 PM
I have faith in literature, music and philosophy. Ask me to die for them and I would laugh in your face. Doesn't mean I don't have faith in them though.

Miranda,

If you were certain of what you believe, there would be no point in having faith. Faith is something for people who cannot prove what they believe and do not have sufficient evidence to file their beliefs away somewhere in their minds. I have enough belief in the sun appearing to rise tomorrow, that I don't have to constantly remind myself of it through faith. There is no point in re-affirming my solar motile beliefs (or perception of such, as I am fully aware that the sun itself only gives the appearance of movement), as they are so obvious to me.

AP

chispa
04-07-2004, 08:17 PM
I think FAITH is a gift you must ask for....you dont have it until you really want it and ask for it to God.

IWilKikU
04-07-2004, 08:46 PM
AP, what do you mean you have "faith" in lit, philosophy, ect...? I'm not sure I follow.

simon
04-08-2004, 09:34 PM
I have faith in the unknown and unanswerable, I can only know that I will never know everything so is that not a faith of some kind, that to keep on living without a specific purpose in mind is a faith that there is a purpose somewhere I just don't know it.

Miranda
04-09-2004, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by atiguhya padma
I have faith in literature, music and philosophy. Ask me to die for them and I would laugh in your face. Doesn't mean I don't have faith in them though.

Miranda,

If you were certain of what you believe, there would be no point in having faith. Faith is something for people who cannot prove what they believe and do not have sufficient evidence to file their beliefs away somewhere in their minds. I have enough belief in the sun appearing to rise tomorrow, that I don't have to constantly remind myself of it through faith. There is no point in re-affirming my solar motile beliefs (or perception of such, as I am fully aware that the sun itself only gives the appearance of movement), as they are so obvious to me.

AP

Dear AP
I am certain of what I believe and this is faith. The bible says that faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. You can see the sun rise and don' t need faith that it exists. But you do need faith to believe that it will rise tomorrow for you because until it does, you cannot be certain that it will. You are also actually having faith that tomorrow you will be here to see it shine.

I know that God takes care of me as a certainty because He has proved it by answering my prayers and being true to the promises that are written in the bible. I can prove to you what I believe, but I cannot cause you to believe the same by the evidence I have that God takes care of me.

There has been a time in my life when I thought God had abandoned me because things got so bad. I decided not to talk to him at all or to ask him anything cos it all seemed useless. Did I lose my faith? I still believed in Him, but I thought he had abandoned me. I could never deny that He exists because He has proved to me that He does and that He loved me.

Eventually I told Him exactly how I felt..and I got to looking back at my life and saw how He had kept me safe through it in all sorts of bad situations. And I suddenly knew that God wouldn't abandon me cos He loves me - and the God I believe in and know is unchangeable.

I didnt understand why all the bad things were happening to me, but I realised that He had always kept me safe and wouldn't abandon me now. This is faith - the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. And though nothing changed, soon after committing everything in my life into God's care, I felt my strength return and from not being able to face the day, I knew I could go on - for that day at least. That was four years ago and I'm still here and I know that God loves me and brought me through all those bad times.

There is a difference between hoping, wishing and faith. The first two have no real substance but faith has to have a foundation...and it begins in belief in God..that is when we are talking of religious faith.

Jesus says that faith is like a grain of mustard seed. That though its the tiniest of all the seeds it grows into a great spreading mustard tree. You only need a little faith but it deepens and grows until it is unshakeable. I know there is a God and I have faith he takes care of me. You know the sun will rise - and you have faith you will be here tomorow to see it. If I am not here to see the sunrise..I know God still will be taking care of me.

I don't need to keep proving to myself that God exists. I know He does, just as you know the sun will rise. So do I have faith or is my God a certainty? Is my God a certainty? If not why don't you have the same belief in Him? Is it because you have no faith in Him? In which case...what is faith? Why do you need it to believe in God yet apparently I don't? You say there's no point in my having faith, that I don't need it because I am certain of what I believe. But I came by my belief like Jesus said..by having faith as a grain of mustard seed until it grew into a knowledge of God and His love for me, it's roots deepening as I saw how He answers prayer and keeps His promises to me.

God is as obvious to me as the sun is to you and I never have to re-affirm my belief in Him. Is this faith or knowledge?

Avalive
04-09-2004, 10:30 PM
Can be everything...

IWilKikU
04-10-2004, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Miranda
I can prove to you what I believe...

...I don't need to keep proving to myself that God exists. I know He does, just as you know the sun will rise.
Miranda, how exactly can you believe he exists? Because I spent my teenage years trying to "prove" the existance of God and it completely destroyed my faith as I realized it was NOT POSSIBLE. If you can prove it, why do shrug off doing so? Theologians and Christian philosophers throughout the history of time have admited that there isn't a way to prove it, hence faith.


God is as obvious to me as the sun is to you and I never have to re-affirm my belief in Him. Is this faith or knowledge?

The fact that I cannot prove God's existence is enough for me me to feel like it's necessary to re-affirm my belief in him daily. I believe that God exists every day, why shouldn't I think about that and decide if I except it or deny it every day? Its too important an issue to make a decission about and than sweep it under the bed, especially if you're a christian. There are people who are alot smarter than you who will argue atheism incredibly logically. On this forum it often becomes a daily conflict. I'm not saying that your faith isn't strong, I'm just saying maybe you should rethink it from time to time.

Miranda
04-13-2004, 06:08 PM
I'm sorry 'Iwillkiku for being awhile replying to you..but the fact is I feel the questions you have asked me are really important and I have been thinking carefully about my answers to them.

You ask me how exactly I believe He exists - and I can't explain this. I have always believed there was a God ever since I was a little girl. I scared of the dark and used to look at the night sky and think of how there was the earth and beyond the earth, the stars which were in the Milky Way. I knew we were in a universe and I used to wonder what was beyond that and then beyond that..and it used to scare me, cos it went on seemingly endlessly - but I always ended with God..beyond everything, there was God, who made everything and this was where everything stopped..and began.

You are exactly right when you say that it is impossible to 'prove' God exists. You can only find Him as you say, through faith. I can't prove to you that there is a God. But I can prove to you that I am certain of my faith in him. This is what I was trying to say.

Believing in God - as you do - is the first step to faith. The bible says..and this is what keeps going round and round my head when I have thought of how to reply to you 'He that comes to God, must first believe that He is'. This verse is from Hebrews 11 verse 6. It goes on to say that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

At the risk of incurring criticism of others who are not Christians, I believe what the bible says, that there is only one way to God - not by ritual, or sacrifice, or sitting on a pew in some dusty church every week or by reciting stuff - but by getting to know him and the only way to Him is through Jesus. Jesus said 'I am the way, the truth and the life; no man comes to the Father but by me' (John 14:6) He also said ' him that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out'(John 6:37)

In Isaiah it says ' A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax he will not quench.'. This is part if a prophecy speaking of Jesus and I didn't used to know what it meant. But I think I do now. I take it to mean Jesus will be careful not to stand on or snuff out even the tiniest flicker of faith but will respect it..and I think it relates to faith in the same way as the grain of mustard seed - you only need a little for it to develop and grow. I think you are in the right place Iwilkiku but that you should have more faith in your faith..and simply believe.


You are right Iwilkiku that others can argue atheism incredibly logically against me and I am certainly not smart enough to answer them because I am not at all clever or learned. None the less their arguements will not affect what I believe because my experience based on faith in God tells me the things He says about Himself in the bible are true. I don't want to get into conflict or argument but the question for this thread is 'What is Faith' and this is testimony to my faith and how it operates in my life.

As you say, it is too important to just pitch under the bed Iwillkiku and I thank you for your considered reply to my post. If there are any other questions you have, I am happy to answer them. I'm not clever or a theologian or anything and against any intellectual argument as you rightly infer, I couldn't hold my own. But no one can deny that I believe, though they can reject, deride or tear apart the things I do believe. They can't take what I believe away from me, no matter how clever their argument. I am certain that God exists and not only exists, but loves and cares for me as an individual - as He does you too.

The bible says 'Only believe - and I do - and you too believe, so have faith in what you believe.


]Originally posted by IWilKikU
Miranda, how exactly can you believe he exists? Because I spent my teenage years trying to "prove" the existance of God and it completely destroyed my faith as I realized it was NOT POSSIBLE. If you can prove it, why do shrug off doing so? Theologians and Christian philosophers throughout the history of time have admited that there isn't a way to prove it, hence faith.



The fact that I cannot prove God's existence is enough for me me to feel like it's necessary to re-affirm my belief in him daily. I believe that God exists every day, why shouldn't I think about that and decide if I except it or deny it every day? Its too important an issue to make a decission about and than sweep it under the bed, especially if you're a christian. There are people who are alot smarter than you who will argue atheism incredibly logically. On this forum it often becomes a daily conflict. I'm not saying that your faith isn't strong, I'm just saying maybe you should rethink it from time to time. [/QUOTE]

atiguhya padma
04-13-2004, 06:20 PM
Firstly, IWilKiku, when I say I have faith in philosophy, what I mean is that philosophy lives because it has not succeeded in proving itself. I have faith in philosophy, because I know it is not as reliable as the appearance of the sun rising tomorrow. Philosophies come and go. We accept them, we abandon them, we revisit them. Like all human knowledge, philosophy changes as we change. Still, it is the best subject I have ever studied. It has had a more powerful affect upon me than any other form of knowledge.

Miranda,

Faith does not require certainty. Certainty does not require faith. There is no certainty. It seems to me that faith is proportional to certainty. The more probability, the less faith is required. Which is why, often religions under the threat from secularism, develop the strongest, staunchest faiths.

Faith is not substantial. I don't care what the Bible says, faith is not about some objective, external, substantial form. When you hope for something and it turns out to be true, that is just luck, not faith. Faith is believing in something before you have sufficient evidence for it. The evidence itself is immaterial to faith.

You don't need faith in the sun rising tomorrow, its probability is strong enough for it to be a belief of minor importance (in the sense that no-one need worry about it, or feel the need to strongly express their belief in the sun rising tomorrow)

All of what you say Miranda, speaks of your faith, rather than certainty of God's existence. I can assure you their is no such certainty. It is not indisputable, for instance. It would be relatively easy for someone to argue that personal experience is an insufficient basis for an argument about God's existence. Likewise, when you say that God has proved that he is looking after you by answering your prayers, what kind of proofs did you have in mind? Are you sure, for instance, that you are not mistaking correlation for causation, when you attribute the things that are happening in your life, with your belief that God has caused them?

Nobody knows what God (if he exists) is like. Nobody knows how he could act in our Universe. Nobody knows what God would look like, behave like, sound like etc. Nobody can adequately describe God. As IWilKiku has said in a previous post, most people have different ideas of God. None of these ideas are empirically based, in any primary sense. This means that our notions of God rely upon a mixture rationalism and secondary empiricism (ie not direct observation of God, but observation of physical matter that we attribute to the work of God). And yet the idea of God doesn't stand up very well to logical analysis. Many philosophers (Hume, Russell, Schopenhauer, Nietzsche etc) have shown critical problems with the idea of God. It is simply naive to assume that God is a certainty. It is even, in my opinion, a far too difficult argument, to defend the idea of the probability of God.

AP

IWilKikU
04-14-2004, 03:46 AM
Originally posted by atiguhya padma
Miranda,

Faith does not require certainty. Certainty does not require faith. There is no certainty. It seems to me that faith is proportional to certainty. The more probability, the less faith is required. Which is why, often religions under the threat from secularism, develop the strongest, staunchest faiths.

I think Miranda understands that. She admitted that she couldn't prove God, hence her faith. I think her certainty comes from her faith. Its easy to have certainty in God when your having good times, but when nothing seems to be working out all of the sudden you realize that there is that great uncertainty about God. Thats when you have to rely on faith. Usually when I go through times like that my faith in God isn't strong enough to sustain my belief in God, and I often flip-flop on the existence issue. But when I'm going through hard times, its ALWAYS a spiritual moment that triggers my return to happiness. Spirituality is ALWAYS the catalyst. If my belief in God is enough to get me through these hard times, I don't really care if its right or wrong. It keeps me ticking. But its definately faith, not certainty.


I don't care what the Bible says.
Thats the biggest problem in trying to find a concensus among thinkers. Some believe the Bible, therefor, there is a God. Others reject the Bible, therefor, there isn't a God. I understand that its not as simple as the either/or fallacy that I just threw up there, but in the long run that's usually the case.
[/QUOTE]

atiguhya padma
04-14-2004, 06:26 AM
Miranda, you said:

<I have always believed there was a God ever since I was a little girl. I scared of the dark and used to look at the night sky and think of how there was the earth and beyond the earth, the stars which were in the Milky Way. I knew we were in a universe and I used to wonder what was beyond that and then beyond that..and it used to scare me, cos it went on seemingly endlessly - but I always ended with God..beyond everything, there was God, who made everything and this was where everything stopped..and began.>

Nothing stops at God. God goes on forever. That is the concept. God is endless. Your fears about endlessness should apply to God too.

Miranda
04-18-2004, 03:07 PM
AP, what Iwilkiku has said here is exactly right. I believe in God as a certainty - but I cannot prove He exists to you. I can prove my faith in Him by my words and actions but I cannot prove there is a God.

It is easy to believe when there are good times but faith is proved in the harder times as Iwilkiku says and though he has doubts, he none the less has faith and this is evident from what he says. The essence of religious faith comes from trusting that God will take care of you in the good times and the bad and that despite appearance to the contrary, things will work out well in the end. It is believing that God is good and merciful, all powerful and wise - that He knows what He is doing even though we may not.

AP I know that God is infinite. I believe time is part of His creation and that He rules it...He is not bound by it in any way. When I said that everything stopped and began with God, I was speaking of creation - not of Him. My fears of endlessness were linked to my fear of the dark - and my purpose in including this was to answer Iwilkiku's question about how I believe in God. I have always believed in him - and I was illustrating this by speaking of my experience as a very small child.

I really don't understand your faith in philosophy. How can you have faith in something ever changing, based on man's own idea's and concepts of the world and himself in it? Faith surely needs stability and foundation, but philosophy is shifting sand. Is it that ultimately you believe philosophy can supply the answers to questions about our purpose and existence? I am not being critical just trying to understand how you have faith in something you accept, abandon and then revisit? What is it that you gain or expect from this kind of 'faith' in philosophy?

You say that you don't care what the bible says, but this is the foundation of my faith and without reference to it, I cannot properly define my beliefs. Also this is a literature forum and its therefore important to include reference to texts. I am sure you do not dismiss other texts out of hand but are open minded enough to consider things that you don't agree with or dislike. Do you only dismiss the bible in this way - or are there other texts also?

You say 'It would be relatively easy for someone to argue that personal experience is an insufficient basis for an argument about God's existence. ' But this thread is not about proving God's existence - the question is 'what is faith' and I didn't set out to prove God's existence, only to describe what my concept of faith - which can only be a personal experience as Iwilkiku illustrates.

I could describe many times how God has answered my prayers, AP but you will come back at me and say they are coincidences that just happened at that particular time. All these things are subjective and nothing I can say to you will prove there is a God because He cannot be found in this way.

Faith is also accepting God's will when He doesn't answer prayer. It's just past Easter and although you dismiss the biblical text, you might at some point have heard Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane before they came to arrest him. He said 'if it be possible let this cup pass from me'. Jesus didn't want to go to the cross at Calvary if there was another way. But he ends the prayer saying 'Never the less, not as I will, but as you will.' This is the essence of real faith - accepting His will even if it doesn't conform to what we want it to be.

You say AP that no one knows what God is like - but those who believe in Him will tell you how they percieve him - me included. The bible illustrates what God is like in the same way other texts will tell you about people. It really doesn't matter whether you believe it or reject it..this is a fact that the bible reflects what people percieve God is like in their experience of Him.

The planets and the universe illustrate that God - supposing He exists and created them - is a God of order since its dominated by natural laws. Some things seem relatively chaotic..but they gradually become ordered as the same mathematical principles that dominate the universe apply. Even our bodies are amazing in the way they are made and scientists still do not know everything about us..still less about the Space. But it is obvious there is order in the universe and on earth in every facet of existence. This reflects a God of order to those who believe in Him.

You say that no one can adequately describe God and I totally agree. God is awesome.

The 'concept' of God will never stand up to critical analysis because He can only be found by faith - as you said AP - His existence cannot be proved.

I agree with you here too 'It is simply naive to assume that God is a certainty. It is even, in my opinion, a far too difficult argument, to defend the idea of the probability of God.'

Faith in God is based on simple trusting in Him no matter what. Could anything more naive?

crisaor
04-19-2004, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by atiguhya padma
I have faith in philosophy, because I know it is not as reliable as the appearance of the sun rising tomorrow. Faith does not require certainty. Certainty does not require faith. There is no certainty. It seems to me that faith is proportional to certainty. The more probability, the less faith is required. Faith is not substantial, it's not about some objective, external, substantial form. When you hope for something and it turns out to be true, that is just luck, not faith. Faith is believing in something before you have sufficient evidence for it. The evidence itself is immaterial to faith.
Are you saying that you don't "have" or "need" faith because it's not substancial?

Originally posted by atiguhya padma
You don't need faith in the sun rising tomorrow, its probability is strong enough for it to be a belief of minor importance (in the sense that no-one need worry about it, or feel the need to strongly express their belief in the sun rising tomorrow).
In other words, you're saying that the sun will come up every morning (in most places at least), no matter if people believe it. That it will happen anyway. The same thing can be applied to (the Occidental) God. Just because people believe in him/her/it won't make a difference. If he has the attributes normally associated with him, then he doesn't need people's belief. So, (THE) God exists (or doesn't, but I believe he does), regardless of any evidence (or lack of it). How can one be sure if God exists? The answer is we can't. But it's no big deal, really. We're uncertain of a lot of things, even the smallest ones. As Hume said, past experience can never determine the future.

Originally posted by atiguhya padma
All of what you say Miranda, speaks of your faith, rather than certainty of God's existence. When you say that God has proved that he is looking after you by answering your prayers, what kind of proofs did you have in mind? Are you sure, for instance, that you are not mistaking correlation for causation, when you attribute the things that are happening in your life, with your belief that God has caused them?
I have had some "proof" that God exists, mainly because like Miranda, I had several of my prayers answered. But this evidence is not empyrical (as most things related to God aren't), it's more like a personal bond between God and me (or anyone else, for that matter). Now, of course this doesn't mean that he speaks directly to me, that I hear his voice as clearly as I'm hearing a song right now, or that I'm some sort of chosen one. It's a knowledge based on an deep and individual level. Like being in love, to name a quick example.

Originally posted by atiguhya padma
Nobody knows what God (if he exists) is like. Nobody knows how he could act in our Universe. Nobody knows what God would look like, behave like, sound like etc. Nobody can adequately describe God. As IWilKiku has said in a previous post, most people have different ideas of God. None of these ideas are empirically based, in any primary sense. This means that our notions of God rely upon a mixture rationalism and secondary empiricism (ie not direct observation of God, but observation of physical matter that we attribute to the work of God). And yet the idea of God doesn't stand up very well to logical analysis. Many philosophers (Hume, Russell, Schopenhauer, Nietzsche etc) have shown critical problems with the idea of God. It is simply naive to assume that God is a certainty. It is even, in my opinion, a far too difficult argument, to defend the idea of the probability of God.
Nobody really knows anything. You know that (no pun intended). We've talked about it before. Just as no one really knows if God exists, no one really knows if he doesn't.
Logical analysis doesn't stand up very well on its own, for a number of reasons widely known in the field. No hypotesis can't be supported merely by empyrical means, because this kind of evidence is as just as open to mistakes as anything else (although that doesn't make it unimportant, of course), as is it's gathering. Not even the refutal hypotesis can't be supported without a series of assumptions, which obviously disregard some important issues. Popper, Lakatos, and Kuhn deal with this subject in more detail, if anyone is interested.
As you stated AP, our view of God is a mixture of rationalism and secondary empiricism, but so is the view of the authors you mentioned. Some are great minds, but that doesn't make them less prone to misconceptions than us (and personally, I would never ever pay attention to anything said by Nietzsche, that guy was just a poor man. Despite of what he claimed, the only thing he got from Schopenhauer was antisemithism).
Also, aplying probability rules (which are very proteic) to God is senseless. You wouldn't get any results whatsoever, and even if you did, it wouldn't matter anyway. Probability is the last place in which to look for certainty.

crisaor
04-19-2004, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by Miranda
I really don't understand your faith in philosophy. How can you have faith in something ever changing, based on man's own idea's and concepts of the world and himself in it? Faith surely needs stability and foundation, but philosophy is shifting sand. Is it that ultimately you believe philosophy can supply the answers to questions about our purpose and existence? I am not being critical just trying to understand how you have faith in something you accept, abandon and then revisit? What is it that you gain or expect from this kind of 'faith' in philosophy?
I agree, but I think the term faith is misused in this context. Philosophy clearly doesn't need faith in order to be carried out, for obvious reasons, but most things in life don't require faith, and this doesn't make them less important. Philosophy is hardly shifting sand, it's more likely to be the hand that gets you out of it, as it has been so in the past. A lot of advances in human knowledge have been made thanks to philosophy, and the fact that it is in constant motion (which by the way, should be measured in centuries, thus making 'ever changing' somewhat relative) is a reflection of the progress made, not the oppposite. Discarded theories are abandoned in favour of more accurate and expanding ones, taking a step closer to truth, albeit it's likely that it will never reach its destination.

emily655321
04-25-2004, 04:24 AM
I agree with crisaor -- I have faith in the *process of philosophizing* as a way of better experiencing and understanding the world. I don't believe we need to know where precisely in the universe we came from, much less where we are going, if we make our strongest effort that of understanding each other -- here, now, today. Philosophy is always changing because our world is always changing; with the climate, migrations of peoples, the growing population, and new forms of communication and technology. The world today is vastly different from what it was thousands of years ago, so I don't put my faith in ways developed for people to exist in the Mediterranean millennia ago as solutions to the problems of the world today.

atiguhya padma
04-27-2004, 05:30 PM
Logic doesn't seem to change much Emily. Otherwise, I agree with what you are saying. When I said I have faith in philosophy, I meant philosophy as an approach to understanding ourselves and the world we live in, as a process of understanding.

emily655321
04-27-2004, 06:07 PM
Well, logic and philosophy differ in my mind. One philosophical approach to life is constantly giving way to another throughout the course of humanity. But I agree, the logic behind these philosophies remains static.

Green Utopia
05-02-2004, 03:57 AM
Stanislaw...I'll be back with the answer ..
Just I want to now?!!

What do you feel you want ,can you describe your feeling?
Just to prepare a reasonable answer for you..that I hope rest your mind...you can sent PM
yours,
Green Utopia

INCHRISTALONE
05-31-2004, 10:47 AM
Hey STANISLAW,

Your question was, what Faith means for an individual?
Well, Faith for an individual means giving his life for Jesus Christ the Savior. Faith is what you believe and what you hope for. If you read the scriptures, you'll see in the New Testement that Jesus Says: "without 'FAITH' it is immposible to please GOD." So here according to Jesus Christ, Faith is the key to please God, Faith is the key to have everlasting life, Faith is the key to have a perfect fellowship with the Lord Jesus, and finally Faith is something that you doubt most but again Faith means, what one believes and what he hopes for in Christ Jesus.

I hope I answered your question properly.... I hope it helps you... "HAVE FAITH IN OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST"

atiguhya padma
06-01-2004, 05:07 AM
So that's what Muslim faith is all about is it? Why don't you try broadening your mind a bit?

fayefaye
06-01-2004, 05:27 AM
*smiles* ati, I've really missed seeing you around :nod: :p

atiguhya padma
06-01-2004, 05:32 AM
Hey I've missed you guys too. I really must try and make more time to get here, but geez work has been so busy recently!

:)

emily655321
06-01-2004, 05:34 AM
Hoorah! I'll add my bit to the "Welcome Back AP" segment of this thread. :D

fayefaye
06-01-2004, 05:39 AM
Yeah, I've been looking for somebody to burn at the stake for a long time. :) screaming 'heeeeeeathen!!!!!' [j/k] back to our debates, ay?

atiguhya padma
06-01-2004, 06:57 AM
whoops wrong thread. I must have been away far too long.!!

Sancho
06-05-2004, 10:18 PM
Here’s my take on faith, for what it’s worth. And this is coming from a lifelong atheist. Perhaps it is coming from a lifelong atheist who is beginning to question his “faith.”

A couple of years ago I was driving my rattle-trap old Toyota pickup into Atlanta to meet my Sister for dinner. She was in town on business for a couple of days. I was northbound on Interstate – 85 in a driving rainstorm that would’ve made Noah proud. Right around mid-town my water pump decided to take a big ‘ole crap on me. Well I limped on into an “oh-my-god parking is expensive here” lot on Ponce-de-Leon Ave (We pronounce it; Ponce-duh-lee-on). I decided to call a tow truck rather than do the usual redneck in-place repair. Jumped on MARTA (train), met Sis, ate dinner, got back to the lot right about the time the tow truck showed up.

The tow truck driver was a sixty-ish dark black man. He was wearing a tidy-white T-shirt, faded jeans and a Braves ball cap. He stood about six foot four and had fore arms the size of my thighs. His appearance was striking. He introduced himself as: “Sanford, jest like in that show Sanford and Son.” I said, “Hey Mr. Sanford, I’m Sancho, and that is a big red truck you’re driving, jest like Fred Sanford’s.” He said, “Dats right.”

Well, we loaded up my piece-o-crap truck and I climbed up into the cab with Sanford for the trip to my house. It was only about thirty seconds into our journey when Sanford commences doing the Lord’s work. If you’ve never gotten a personal hell-fire and damnation sermon from a large southern charismatic black man in the cab of a tow truck…well, you just haven’t lived. I was enjoying myself immensely.

Sanford: You gots to have Jesus in Yo life. Wud’ya say your name wuz?

Sancho: Sancho.

Sanford: You don’t look like no Sancho. Ok so anyway, Sancho, You gots to have Jesus in Yo life. Did I tell Ya I’m the assistant preacher at my church in Hapville?

Sancho: No sir.

Sanford: What church you-all goes to?

Sancho: I don’t go to church.

About twenty seconds of the most uncomfortable silence of my life passed.

Sanford: Dats OK, lemme tell you why I have Jesus in my life.

Well, I came to find out that Sanford had found Jesus ten years earlier in the Fulton County lock-up. Before that he’d been a street person with a bad addiction to crack cocaine. He told me about life on the street:

Sanford: At night I lived in the crack house. In the daytime I lived in my car down on 13th Street, cats lived in it at night. Dats nasty. Am I right Sancho?

Sancho: Yes sir

He told me about friendship:

Sanford: Sancho, the people in dat crack house is the best friends you will ever have…’till you outta cash. Then they don’t know you. Am I right, Sancho?

Sancho: Yes sir.

He told me about jail:

Sanford: It weren’t too bad. Better’n livin’ in a car with cats. Am I right, Sancho?

Sancho: Yes sir.

Then he told me about faith:

Sanford: Dat crack cocaine is the devil Sancho. It’s the devil. Dats why you gots to have Jesus in Yo life. If you don’t have Jesus…you will go back to it. You might stay off it maybe 10 maybe15 maybe 20 years; but you will go back to it. Man… is weak. The devil… wants you back. Only Jesus will keep you from him. Am I right, Sancho?

Sancho: Yes sir.

Sanford: Umm hmm.

Sanford was not speaking metaphorically about the devil. For him, crack cocaine was the devil; it was the pure embodiment of evil. His faith in Jesus was the only way for him to cope with it.

And that’s the day I learned about faith.

Sanford wound up inviting me to Sunday services at his church. I didn’t go. I wouldn’t have fit in. He did leave a lasting impression though. And I tipped big.

emily655321
06-06-2004, 03:14 PM
That's awesome, Sancho. You should write a book. Your style reminds me a lot of Dave Barry.

That said, your story makes my point for me: faith -- in anything -- serves the purpose of fullfilling a psychological need. It gave Sanford the strength to overcome drugs, and acts as continued motivation for him. No matter what it is that you believe in personally, a feeling of faith provides a reliable support system in your life. Humanity is changeable and often fails you, but if you can convince yourself that there is something infallible out there guiding you, it provides a potentially endless amount of psychological strength, and the resulting state of mind has even been proven to enhance the ability to heal oneself from illness and injury.

simon
06-06-2004, 04:14 PM
So then is faith purely something used by people for the selfish reason of gaining confidence?

Miranda
06-06-2004, 08:07 PM
I agree with Emily Sancho should write a book..his style is captivating!

emily655321
06-06-2004, 10:10 PM
So then is faith purely something used by people for the selfish reason of gaining confidence?

Well, not deliberately. Or consciously. That's what I think it is, though.
It's a crutch, but if you would be unable to stand on your own otherwise -- as I think very few people are; I certainly can't, -- then why not? People with faith are lucky.

Sancho
06-07-2004, 06:28 PM
Thanks for the nice comments guys. I don’t think I have any style though; I was really just trying to record the event. Unfortunately I only had the space for a very bare skeleton of the dialog. Sanford would pound the dash with evangelical zeal when he was speaking of his past “sins.” Then he’d totally break down when speaking of his estrangement from his wife and daughter. I think his faith was more than a selfish confidence builder. I’d so far as to say that it gave him the will to live. Also, if you’ll permit – it gave him the will to be a better person. He told me, “back then I never hurt nobody … ‘cept the people I loved.

Incidentally, here’s some irony for you: at the time I lived in the same neighborhood as the actor who played “Grady” on Sanford and Son. I told Sanford (tow truck driver) about this and of course he wanted to go meet him. We’d’ve done it too, but it was getting late, so we decided not to.

emily655321
06-08-2004, 07:46 AM
I think his faith was more than a selfish confidence builder. I’d so far as to say that it gave him the will to live. Also, if you’ll permit – it gave him the will to be a better person.

Not to beat my point into the ground, except I feel I may still be misunderstood. I fully accept that faith is a very powerful and genuine feeling. It's something that occurs naturally or it doesn't, or it goes away; you can't talk yourself into it. People don't just "adopt" faith for self-fullfilling reasons. But I think the reason behind this type of phenomenon occurring is that it meets a psychological need in the person. Sanford was unable to turn his life around himself, so he subconsciously developed an inner support system to help him live a better life -- a.k.a. faith in Christianity. And I say, "Go Sanford's Subconscious!" It's a very good thing for people.

Castorp
05-07-2006, 05:28 PM
Faith may be a process of mortgaging the will.

Union Jack
05-07-2006, 07:05 PM
Faith is having belief in something.

Green Lady
05-08-2006, 05:11 PM
These are both usefull responses, but what does faith mean for an individual. I know what I should be believing, but I am not sure If I believe in the exact words or the actual meaning. It is very difficult to try to have faith, when faith is not a clear idea. :-?


It is hard, very hard. But one can't have knowledge until they have faith. It's just like in science when you have a theory before you prove it.

Guinivere
07-26-2008, 07:04 AM
I always liked Soren Kierkeggard's answers to this trumendous question. Here are an example.

Faith is the highest passion in a human being. Many in every generation may
not come that far, but none comes further. Soren Kierkegaard

I found something else, very simple.

To me faith means not worrying.
John Dewey

blazeofglory
07-27-2008, 10:17 PM
Faith can be a good passion, bad passion and everything. Now in this world many wars are waged because warring people want to prop up their walls of faiths. Faiths more often than not lead to ruin, and we have fundamentalists and fanatics who are engaging in reinforcing the fort of their faiths. we have seen consequences, indeed very bad consequences in this world when people go adrift or sail on the sea of faith.

Why we have suicide bombers? Just because they want to strengthen their faiths. And so many wars are fought, blood-shed just in the name of faith.

In total faith has harmed human beings and as such the wall of faiths must be totally demolished.

Without faith human beings can proceed and can help one another.

Let us unite and make a world without faiths.

Here faiths mean religious beliefs, not the ones we put upon others.

The main emphasis placed here is on religious faith that imbibes a kind of intolerance. Man is born good but later on elders embed varieties of faiths in people, and it is really a good thing to demolish the wall of faith and let people use their own sentiments, good sentiments, not faiths that degrade them ultimately.

blazeofglory
08-07-2008, 10:05 PM
Faith is to hold an idea, a notion which can not be backed by evidence or there is nothing other than to hold it and take it for granted in point of fact.