The things we think about

[lavendar1]

When I consider the short duration of my life, swallowed up in the eternity before and after, the little space which I fill, and even can see, engulfed in the infinite immensity of spaces of which I am ignorant, and which know me not, I am frightened, and am astonished at being here rather than there; for there is no reason why here rather than there, why now rather than then. Who has put me here? By whose order and direction have this place and time been allotted to me? Blaise Pascal

Way back when I was an undergraduate, I was fascinated by the writings of a mathemetician (I am a "words" type) trying to make sense of his 'place' in the universe. I still wonder as I wander. Do you? And if you do, how would you respond to Blaise Pascal's questions?

[Sitaram]

Many mourn the idea that we, as individuals, may not be here for eternity and that the day of our death may be the end of our existence as unique individuals. But no one ever seems mourn or grieve over the fact that an eternity passed prior to our existence. We have all faced an eternity of non-existence, and survived the experience, but that struggle was in our past and not in our future.

[blp]

Don't be greedy, Blaise.

[Scheherazade]

I consider myself lucky to be 'here' and that is it. I don't think that my existence is meant to have and will have a significance in the great scheme of things. Trying to give meanings to our presence in the universe is kind of a human indulgence; we would like to think we have a purpose but it seems like (to me at least) that we are the only species who does not serve to a purpose other than our own. What is more, we do harm/endanger others' survival as well. Thus, I am not sure if there is a purpose or deep meaning behind for our being here now...

Grab a bunch of pebbles and scatter them around: that is how and who we are.

[atiguhya padma]

Pascal seems sooooo anthropomorphic.

[lavendar1]

I don't think that my existence is meant to have and will have a significance in the great scheme of things. Trying to give meanings to our presence in the universe is kind of a human indulgence; we would like to think we have a purpose but it seems like (to me at least) that we are the only species who does not serve to a purpose other than our own. What is more, we do harm/endanger others' survival as well.

Grab a bunch of pebbles and scatter them around: that is how and who we are.

I think Pascal was trying to address the seeming randomness (is that a word? I just made it one!) of our existence. For him, religion inevitably crept in, as it often does in philosophy -- his necessity of the wager-- that, hey you might as well believe in God, because what have you got to lose: if he exists, and you've 'done good' by him, you'll be fine come judgement day, but if you don't and he does exist, you're in big trouble.

But I'm getting off track. It never occurred to me that we don't have a purpose...really, and I don't consider myself a particularly religious person. You've said we can harm or endanger others' survival. Yes; but on the flip side, we can benefit/enhance others' survival, too. I guess I'm thinking that one's attitude to their 'place' or purpose in the universe is what matters most.

Did you ever read a book called Man's Search For Meaning by Viktor Frankl? He explains all of this much better than I ever could.

[blp]

-- his necessity of the wager-- that, hey you might as well believe in God, because what have you got to lose: if he exists, and you've 'done good' by him, you'll be fine come judgement day, but if you don't and he does exist, you're in big trouble.

Well, the title of this thread is general enough that it probably leaves room for us to talk about this for a bit. That wager's interesting because it's an attempt to distil some certainty from a situation of uncertainty. But it's nonsense really because (I'm speaking as an atheist), if you reduce faith down to some kind of cosmic insurance policy, it's such a cynical, calculating decision that it barely qualifies as faith at all. I like to imagine a section of Dante's inferno especially for the people who took this
bet where they're forced for eternity to crawl through holes too small for them.

[scruffy_danny]

Well, the title of this thread is general enough that it probably leaves room for us to talk about this for a bit. That wager's interesting because it's an attempt to distil some certainty from a situation of uncertainty. But it's nonsense really because (I'm speaking as an atheist), if you reduce faith down to some kind of cosmic insurance policy, it's such a cynical, calculating decision that it barely qualifies as faith at all. I like to imagine a section of Dante's inferno especially for the people who took this
bet where they're forced for eternity to crawl through holes too small for them.

Blp definately has a point here. I'm sure the very fact that saying you have faith in God as a means to come out the better whichever happens to be the truth would be in many eyes (especially God's) showing absolutely no faith at all.

Although, seems as Pascal was claiming he had faith in God, this would mean that he followed God's principles and commandments (unless he was a complete hypocrite) and this would, interestingly, in my view be good enough for God anyway - doing good and living a good life, so in a way it seems as if one can play it safe and end up in a good situation whatever happens at the end their life. Indeed, if it turned out God didn't exist, you would probably have lived a good life being so honest and good.

Sorry to stride away from the direct topic but i thought it was an interesting idea.

[Scheherazade]

I am afraid I will have to disagree that we enhance others' survival... We only do that when it suits us and many extinct species will agree with that.

As for practising religion as an insurance policy... If you believe an omnipotent and omniscient God, he is surely to see through your true intentions in practising religion (that you are doing it 'just in case'). Pruposeful deception has to be worse than honest refusal or disagreement.
Did you ever read a book called Man's Search For Meaning by Viktor Frankl? He explains all of this much better than I ever could.Unfortunately, I have not read that book. I am neither as learned nor well read (nor spoken) as some of my friends here.

[lavendar1]

I am afraid I will have to disagree that we enhance others' survival... We only do that when it suits us and many extinct species will agree with that.

I have not read that book. I am neither as learned nor well read (nor spoken) as some of my friends here.

I don't agree with Pascal's wager either; I just find the idea interesting. Pascal actually had the whole thing "worked out" (or not) in a formulaic fashion, mathemetician that he was.

And I disagree with your self-assessment - you (whether you realized it or not) enhanced my survival several times by giving me good sources when I needed them most. And I'm sure other forum members feel the same way. And hey, there are plenty of books I've never read either. :blush:
And as a mom and student with a new career, I probably won't ever get to read everything I'd like to read.

If you get a chance though, read Frankl. He was a concentration camp survivor and after the fact developed some new kind of psychotherapy. He inspired me by showing how much an individual can do with his life.

[Jantex]

I consider myself lucky to be 'here' and that is it.


Scheherazade, you just do not have another choice. ;)

[Scheherazade]

Scheherazade, you just do not have another choice. ;)That is true! However, that should not stop me from pretending to be happy about it, should it? :D


lavendar1, I am not sure what you are refering here:
And I disagree with your self-assessment - you (whether you realized it or not) enhanced my survival several times by giving me good sources when I needed them most. And I'm sure other forum members feel the same way.but thank you; it does sound good! ;) I was more refering to the survival of other species; like animals and plants on the planet.

[lavendar1]

lavendar1, I was more refering to the survival of other species; like animals and plants on the planet.

I know; I just wanted to convey that although we might believe our 'purpose' doesn't seem particularly significant, we can impact others' lives by the good (or bad) we do, that impact can ripple, and who knows? It's what so neat about existence -and thinking about it -- all the possibilities.

Plus, I wanted to make you smile.

[Jantex]

That is true! However, that should not stop me from pretending to be happy about it, should it?
Exactly,Scheherazade,you do not have another choice but be happy.

[atiguhya padma]

<for there is no reason why here rather than there, why now rather than then. Who has put me here? By whose order and direction have this place and time been allotted to me?>

We occupy space. Who knows, maybe that is our purpose. Pascal, of course, is looking for some grand design, some elaborate cosmic plan that will make us feel needed and important.

Typical Christian anthropomorphism.

Why here rather than there, he asks. The answer surely lies in chemistry, biology, physics etc. But, of course, Pascal would not be very happy with such a mundane answer.

By whose order and direction have this place and time been allotted to me? asks BP. What a silly question. He has already decided the answer before he has even asked the question! And furthermore, he leads the thoughts of his audience into an unspoken acquiescence regarding his answer. Pure propaganda.

Surely he would have been wiser to ask: What were the causal connections that led to our existence at this time in this place.

The answer to which would involve a rigorous enquiry into physical history, rather than some woolly-headed, half-baked metaphyical nonsense.

[Sancho]

lavendar1, you’re the second person this summer to recommend Viktor Frankl’s book to me. That means I’ll have to wander over to the library and check it out.

As for Pascal’s wager, I don’t think that he was serious about using the wager as a means to an end in life; in fact, I’m pretty sure he’d believe that to be blasphemous (serving ones self not god). I think that he used the wager as an impetus to search for meaning or god. Pascal was nothing if not a pious man. In his early life he had worked out some original probability theory in mathematics and this caused him grief later in life when he realized that his theories where leading people down the road to perdition with respect to gambling.

A.P., as usual, I agree with everything you wrote, but you must admit that Pascal had a brilliant mind. Of course, as with many brilliant minds, it was also somewhat unbalanced. I think that he brilliantly raced off into the abyss. (I’m not brilliant but I am unbalanced so I guess I share that with Blaise Pascal) I like what Nietzsche had to say about it: “I’ll never forgive Christianity for what it did to Pascal.”

[cppl-xpsn]

Given that the thoughts (and consequent writings) of those that have passed before have such a perpetuating effect on our inquisitive thinking; is it not possible that a significant aspect of our “purpose” is to be a catalyst for that which comes after? The value of such demonstrated by our now.

[lavendar1]

Whoa --that was profound.

(And by the way, welcome to the forum...) :)

[Literal]

Given that the thoughts (and consequent writings) of those that have passed before have such a perpetuating effect on our inquisitive thinking; is it not possible that a significant aspect of our “purpose” is to be a catalyst for that which comes after? The value of such demonstrated by our now.

What a very profound notion indeed! Reading this stretched my minds to boundaries quite unknown to me before, and for a while I pondered on this. To be honest, I am still pondering...

[Sancho]

I once heard philosophy described as “the long conversation,” which is to say it is a conversation that has taken place for over several millennia now. I like that idea. And while it most certainly is purposeful, I’m going to stop short of calling it our "purpose." That, to me, seems superstitious. But you know what they say, - “Whatever gets you through the night,…it’s alright,…it’s alright.”

[lavendar1]

I once heard philosophy described as “the long conversation,” which is to say it is a conversation that has taken place for over several millennia now. I like that idea.

So do I. Once upon a time (it wasn't that long ago, but so many things have happened since then that it seems that way...) I read an excerpt from something written a Muslim philosopher named al-Ghazzali -- it was about the idea of 'knowledge' and his puzzlings over it and doubts about it. He was trying to figure out how we can really know something. If I remember it right, he tried to strip away sense perception to come to 'knowledge' only to find that no matter how many veils he removed there was always another left to keep him doubting if he ever really 'knew' anything. I remember in reading it, I felt I wasn't alone in having doubt about things.

I suppose there are lots of ways to keep that "long conversation" going. That's why it's so interesting to me to read about how differently (and yet how similarly) we all look at things.

[Pendragon]

I once read somewhere (like Mark Twain, I'd give the credit to the author if I could but recall the name!)
Watch your thoughts, they become your words.
Watch your words, they become your actions.
Watch your actions, they become YOU.

[Pendragon]

I was just thinking re: Blaise Pascal. There exists a philosophical theorum called "Self Fullfilling Prophecy" which states that a person can believe something to such an extent that by their actions or words they manage to MAKE it come to pass, or to delude themselves in to beliving that an event has occured and no amount of persuasion to the contrary will move them. Perhaps this is what happened to Pascal. Nietzsche had a tendency to blame EVERYTHING on Christianity. :cool: Otherwise, he was a brilliant thinker.

[Scheherazade]

"Self Fullfilling Prophecy" which states that a person can believe something to such an extent that by their actions or words they manage to MAKE it come to pass, or to delude themselves in to beliving that an event has occured and no amount of persuasion to the contrary will move them. This sums up the whole essence of religions, in my opinion.

[Pendragon]

This sums up the whole essence of religions, in my opinion.And perhaps the whole essence of theories in general, n'est c'est pas? There are others besides religious people who believe against all reason. I recall people discussing an infinite universe with infinite possibilities. Or, if you're a Trekkie, Mr. Spock's IDIC (Infifite Diversity in Infinite Combinations). That would make anything at LEAST possible, however UNLIKELY. :D

[cppl-xpsn]

self-fulfilling - Achieving fulfillment as a result of having been expected or foretold
prophecy - A prediction of the future
reality - That which exists objectively and in fact
purpose - The object toward which one strives or for which something exists; an aim or a goal

The concept of “reality of purpose” is strengthened by the observation of self-fulfilling prophecies. That is to say that a person believing they will fail, and then failing is evidence that a person that believes they will succeed, will succeed. To further that would be to say that to believe that you are discovering aspects of your purpose, ensures that you are.

Thank you for the welcome lavendar1 :banana:

[confused1]

everyday i wonder of our true existance, but in the end it only brings me to a circle. MAN CANNOT ANSWER THE TRUE MEANING OF LIFE. he can only live in it! therefore my thoughts are washed in the water of thinking and philosophising only to resurface when the time is necessary. a wise friend told me that i must be LIKE WATER~ i see why now. water goes through many stages but each stage is never dwelt upon. every stage of water is only a physical change, chemically it remains: WATER! therefore...one must remember that not everything can be dwealt upon for forever.....thoughts will always BE. SO LIVE LIFE!

[Dailen]

Not to sound too simple minded, but..
I think the meaning of life
is to find
Our individual meaning in life

Occams Razor.

[starrwriter]

everyday i wonder of our true existance, but in the end it only brings me to a circle. MAN CANNOT ANSWER THE TRUE MEANING OF LIFE. he can only live in it! therefore my thoughts are washed in the water of thinking and philosophising only to resurface when the time is necessary. a wise friend told me that i must be LIKE WATER~ i see why now. water goes through many stages but each stage is never dwelt upon. every stage of water is only a physical change, chemically it remains: WATER! therefore...one must remember that not everything can be dwealt upon for forever...
Nietzsche said man can never know the value of life in an objective way because he is an interested party deeply involved in life.

Your comments about water sound like Taoism, which has been called the water religion. Or the ancient Greek philosopher Heraclitus, who said you can't step in the same river twice.

[confused1]

i am just speaking from my small experience, that dwelling on thoughts too long can drive one to insanity, for me at least...

"To realize that our knowledge is
ignorance,
This is a noble insight.
To regard our ignorance as knowledge,
This is mental sickness.

Only when we are sick of our sickness
Shall we cease to be sick.
The sage is not sick, being sick of
sickness;
This is the secret of health."
-Tao Teh Ching
Lao Tzu

[confused1]

"Attain to utmost Emptiness.
Cling single-heartedly to interior peace.
While all things are stirring together,
I only contemplate the Return.
For flourishing as they do each of them will return to its root.
To return to its root is to find peace.
To find peace is to fulfill one's destiny.
To know the Constant is called Insight.

If one does not know the Constant,
One runs blindly into disasters."
-Tao Teh Ching
Lao Tzu

*Just something I thought would spark your interest*
I continue to learn from the teachings of the Tao and I hope many others out there will enjoy Lao Tzu's wise words too!

[blurry blur]

why should there be a reason for one's existence?...I exist, I live!

[ShoutGrace]

I thought that you were a "figment of your own imagination"?

[AllisonForbes]

It seems to me that Pascal allowed the enormity of the universe to break into his worldview. When one considers the billions upon billions of stars, the galaxies that we continue to find, the construction of the most intricate facet of nature, one is immediatly confronted with how very small he/she is. Or overwhelmed by the complexity required to be alive. That everything operates together and if one comes undone, it can be the undoing of everything in short order. Mass extinction.

When truly contemplating the incredulity of the natural realm, it is entirely reasonable to wonder why do I exist at this moment in time and for what purpose. If everthing else in the universe is governed by laws, by order, then it stands to reason that humans and their existence is governed by law and order. To what end and for what purpose, seems to be a perfectly plausible question.

It is one that man has sought since the beginning of time. Whether through philosophy, logic, religion, music, art, or writing, mathematics and science -humans have sought their purpose. I would venture for Pascal, who saw the patterns and complexities of numbers and how the universe was understandable partially through those patterns, it led him to a mastermind of sorts. When one stumbles upon genius far beyond what humans have previously thought possible, one has to wonder how it is that 'design' was conceived.

[AllisonForbes]

why should there be a reason for one's existence?...I exist, I live!

If not a reason, then why live?