The Sirens of Titan

[AbdoRinbo]

Ah, what a charming, wry, humane novel. In my opinion, it blows Slaughterhouse Five out of the water. Malachi Consant, in fact, seems to me to be a very well-rounded character (given the amazing transformation he undergoes as the story unfolds), and Vonnegut never fails to strike that twining emotional chord. I could re-read this book over and over again and never get tired of it.

[gterpenkas]

Kurt Vonnegut is tied with Aldous Huxley for being my favorite author. He had a rare, and impeccable gift to create the most interesting characters who do the most fantastic things in a very human way.

If you liked Sirens, I highly reccomend you read Slapstick.

[AbdoRinbo]

If you liked Sirens, I highly reccomend you read Slapstick.

I have read Slapstick and I think it is an awesome story, but I think he just borrowed old themes from 'Sirens' when writing that one. I have read almost everything by Vonnegut. Timequake is the one that made me laugh the hardest. Tingaling!

[Downer]

Both Sirens and Slaughterhouse five are wonderful reads, I do wonder what this recurring theme of being unstuck in time relates to in his life - though I gather he was pretty phucked up from surviving Dresden - but then that's hardly suprising. I think Slaughterhouse five has gained a certain notoriety largely through its title and people not understanding what the book is about - my parents were hell bent on complaining about its being read at school until I pointed out that they didn't actually know what it was about.
I'm not sure which of the two I would rate more highly, but thye concept of the Malachi has certainly stuck in my head - I've noticed a few cars that have small figures hanging from nooses from the rear view mirror recently - there's not an underground movement for the "church of God the utterly indifferent" that I should know about is there?

My ultimate favourite Vonnegut so far has got to be Cats Cradle, I just found the whole island society and the end of the book very fitting in todays world,
Donwer

[AbdoRinbo]

My ultimate favourite Vonnegut so far has got to be Cats Cradle, I just found the whole island society and the end of the book very fitting in todays world,
Donwer

Cat's Cradle is awesome . . . in fact, I haven't read a Vonnegut novel I didn't like. Of course, I haven't read Galapagos or Deadeye Dick, which I have heard are pretty boring, but considering the number of novels he wrote and is still writing, he has had a pretty impressive winning streak.

However, The Sirens of Titan[i] told a more interesting story. Depending on why you read, Cat's Cradle or Slaughterhouse Five could easily be 'superior' works, but The Sirens told a better story, even if it was lacking in areas such as political commentary (though it is overflowing with social commentary).

[gterpenkas]

Have you experienced his short stories? I'm particularly fond of his earlier ones (Bangombo Snuff Box, The Boy Who Hated Girls, etc.) but they are all pretty much great. My favorite novel would probably be Timequake as well, but it's closely followed by all his other ones that I've read (and I think theres only a handful I haven't).

Slaughterhouse-five is a sci-fi novel with aliens, I thought you all knew that, after all, it doesnt take a rocket scientest to figure it out (yes, I am chalked full of cynicism).

oh, and if you guys liked Cat's Cradle, read Island by Aldous Huxley.

[Downer]

what I don't understand is the recent change to Slaughterhouse five - When I originaly read it ( the first few times ), the Tralfammadorians communicated by farting and tap dancing, I buy a new copy and all of a sudden they communicate by telepathy.

I read half of the point of them as being inherently absurd and more an indication of a broken mind than anything else,
don't they expect anyone to remeber the original version,
Downer

[Mirrorshades]

Sirens of Titan and Slaughterhouse 5 are the only novels of Vonnegut's I have read. I guess I should read more as I keep seeing lots of people rating all his stuff, but I have an ex (who is an English teacher) who really hates him. That said, she ain't the fount of all knowledge so maybe I will ignore her warnings.

Anyway, picking up on what someone else said; didn't Vonnegut suffer from some kind of mental disorder? I am not sure where I am getting this from, but I seem to remember something about him having some kind of schizoid disorder and spending time in an institution? That might explain some of strange recurring themes in his novels, becuase I don't think you can deny that he used them as a kind of catharsis. Am I right, or am I am I getting confused with some other dude?

[AbdoRinbo]

Anyway, picking up on what someone else said; didn't Vonnegut suffer from some kind of mental disorder? I am not sure where I am getting this from, but I seem to remember something about him having some kind of schizoid disorder and spending time in an institution? That might explain some of strange recurring themes in his novels, becuase I don't think you can deny that he used them as a kind of catharsis. Am I right, or am I am I getting confused with some other dude?

After his mother's suicide in 1944, Vonnegut was sent to France where he was captured by the Germans in the Battle of the Bulge. He witnessed the Firebombing of Dresden--he himself estimated he cleaned up 135,000 German corpses afterwards--and went on to raise his sister and brother-in-law's children, who were orphaned after their premature death shortly after he returned to New York. Surprisingly, Vonnegut was never admitted into a mental institution and managed to take on a relatively normal life. He brings up all of these events throughout his many novels, and he always has something positive to say about all of the experiences. He couldn't be more sane if you ask me.

[Downer]

Phillip K.Dick was in and out of mental institutuions for for a lot of his life, the trouble is being know as an eccentric, a lot of the time they thought he was just playing himself so he was never really believed despite having an amphetamine problem. I think they might have believed him when he finaly topped himself,
Downer

[AbdoRinbo]

Phillip K.Dick was in and out of mental institutuions for for a lot of his life, the trouble is being know as an eccentric, a lot of the time they thought he was just playing himself so he was never really believed despite having an amphetamine problem. I think they might have believed him when he finaly topped himself,
Downer

One of my friend's recommended Phillip K. Dick to me . . . I heard Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep' was a good read. As far as I can tell he was kind of along the same lines as Vonnegut was when he wrote Player Piano, but I have heard almost nothing else about him other than he had a speed addiction and locked himself in a room with just a typewriter for weekly bouts. Perhaps you could offer up a recommendation? Lately I have been reading a lot of science-fiction . . . I am plowing through Dune, which is something I should have done a long time ago. Dick piques my curiosity, though.

[Downer]

"A maze of Death" is possibly one of his most readable Sci fi novels and has a lot in common with some of Vonneguts themes, the religion portrayed in it is intriguing. For non Sci fi, "the transmigration of timothy archer" is quite captivating.
In the short story line, I'm not sure what the titles of the compilations currently are as they seem to change but aim for one with "we can remember it for you wholesale" ( go figure how they made that into an Arnie film), "return match" and "the alien mind", these choices will probably tell you more about me than dick himself but so it goes,
now i'm off to figure out why i suddenly can't type caps on this thing,
downer

[Mirrorshades]

Mmm...clearly I am mistaken about Vonnegut then.

As for a Dick book, I would recommend "Valis". It is a very good book, semi-autobiographical too.

Here is a link to it at amazon: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1857983394/qid=1058369101/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_3_1/202-5946269-3703017

Ignore the dude who says it is not a good place to start with Dick. He is mistaken. Also ignore the dude who describes it as "Dull". I expect most of it went over his head, poor chap.

That said, one of them makes the point that "Ubik" is very good and they could be right that it may be a better place to start. Once you start reading Dick's books you will realise the huge influence he has had on contemporary sci-fi and screen writing, even if this debt often goes unacknowledged by the people who appropriate his ideas.

[AbdoRinbo]

Ignore the dude who says it is not a good place to start with Dick. He is mistaken. Also ignore the dude who describes it as "Dull". I expect most of it went over his head, poor chap.

The dude abides.

Heh . . . I was wondering if you considered Dick to be part of the Cyberpunk movement. I talked to one of my English professors and he told me that Dick came before the C.P. movement really came into full throttle. Of course, Joyce was a Modernist . . . but who is going to argue that Finnegans Wake is not a (and, in a sense, the first) work of Postmodern literature? Perhaps Dick was on a similar path--perhaps he was at the vanguard of the Cyberpunk movement and was not given any creedence? Or maybe he was and I am just speculating on a subject I don't know anything about. Perhaps I am just blathering?

[AbdoRinbo]

what I don't understand is the recent change to Slaughterhouse five - When I originaly read it ( the first few times ), the Tralfammadorians communicated by farting and tap dancing, I buy a new copy and all of a sudden they communicate by telepathy.

I read half of the point of them as being inherently absurd and more an indication of a broken mind than anything else,
don't they expect anyone to remeber the original version,
Downer

I never noticed that there were substitutions in Slaughterhouse Five. Was the version you read with the tap-dancing and farting an older copy? I have a generally recent copy of the book (in the new design with the 'V' crest on the cover, like most of his books have), so I might go out looking for another, older copy at a used book store to check and see if this is indeed an edit by the publishers (or by Vonnegut himself!). Makes you wonder if other novels change as the years go by.

[Mirrorshades]

The dude abides.

Heh . . . I was wondering if you considered Dick to be part of the Cyberpunk movement. I talked to one of my English professors and he told me that Dick came before the C.P. movement really came into full throttle. Of course, Joyce was a Modernist . . . but who is going to argue that Finnegans Wake is not a (and, in a sense, the first) work of Postmodern literature? Perhaps Dick was on a similar path--perhaps he was at the vanguard of the Cyberpunk movement and was not given any creedence? Or maybe he was and I am just speculating on a subject I don't know anything about. Perhaps I am just blathering?

Well, I ain't that well up on the academia associated with books because I didn't actually study literature at college, although I took a couple of lit modules (and I start a distance learning diploma in Literature from the Open University soon, Yay!) and one of the things I did study was cyberpunk. In short, yes I agree with you totally. I think Dick's work was instrumental in the transformation of SF into "Cyberpunk" and I argued the point with my professor too! Along with dudes like Bester and Delaney he paved the way. Although I reckon your professor is right to say that they weren't cyberpunks themselves, their adoption of what we now recognise to be postmodern tropes, aesthetics and themes was very influential for the cyberpunk guys. I would say probably the earliest guy (who I have come across) who you could classify as a cyberpunk is Greg Bear, although even then some of his work definately does not fall into that category. If I remember my dates correctly the particular novel I am thinking of ("Blood Music") doesn't predate Neuromancer by more than a couple of years and even then the arguments I can think of are certainly tenuous in some places.

Anyway, now I am blathering but yes, I agree with you.

(Personally though, I have always considered that exactly where postmodernity starts in terms of chronology is actually a pretty subjective thing. In the past I have seen someone make a perfectly coherent argument for why "Don Quixote" is a postmodern novel, and I agreed with them!)

[AbdoRinbo]

(Personally though, I have always considered that exactly where postmodernity starts in terms of chronology is actually a pretty subjective thing. In the past I have seen someone make a perfectly coherent argument for why "Don Quixote" is a postmodern novel, and I agreed with them!)

I am interested in the reasoning behind Don Quixote as 'Postmodernist'. I read somewhere that irony didn't become a major phenomenon until the beginning of Postmodernism (though it can be traced back to the ancient Greeks). I think maybe the justification for 'Quixote' being a work of Postmodernism is a vague misunderstanding of where irony stands in the history of literature ('Quixote' was a work of excruciating irony). Moreover, what makes something Postmodern to beging with? I think we try and label everything that is Post-WWII Postmodern, but I suppose that is what it means to be an era. I could be wrong on this, but that is why I brought it up.

[gterpenkas]

(Personally though, I have always considered that exactly where postmodernity starts in terms of chronology is actually a pretty subjective thing. In the past I have seen someone make a perfectly coherent argument for why "Don Quixote" is a postmodern novel, and I agreed with them!)

I am interested in the reasoning behind Don Quixote as 'Postmodernist'. I read somewhere that irony didn't become a major phenomenon until the beginning of Postmodernism (though it can be traced back to the ancient Greeks). I think maybe the justification for 'Quixote' being a work of Postmodernism is a vague misunderstanding of where irony stands in the history of literature ('Quixote' was a work of excruciating irony). Moreover, what makes something Postmodern to beging with? I think we try and label everything that is Post-WWII Postmodern, but I suppose that is what it means to be an era. I could be wrong on this, but that is why I brought it up.

Quixote was avant-garde at the time, and definately not postmodern. If it was postmodern, it would be excrutiatingly pretentious, and painful to read (postmodernism has ruined all forms of art), but thats fine because only high-class art yuppies would read it (with a double grande ****bucks latte).

Basically, something is postmodern if it is not avant-garde (and is made by a pretentious soft-money whore). Postmodernism is our crappy period of art which involves "accepting" that there is "nothing new that can be done" and therefore all postmodern art is a complete ripoff of other things that have been done before.

[Mirrorshades]

Um, that's a slightly simplistic way of putting it dude. Personally I agree that some of it is worthless pap, but in my experience it pretty much runs the gamut between "bloody awful" and "outstandingly splendid". Once you start discriminating between which individual pieces have genuine artistic value and which don't you start getting into the whole idea of cultural elitism which in turn can make you, as a critic, seem pretentious in your own opinions. The great irony is that this whole scene is supposed to be one of the things that postmodernity reacted against in the first place! :-/

(Not actually suggesting that you are pretentious btw. Just playing devil's advocate)

As for where I read that stuff about Don Quixote, if I still had all my essays from college I could probably look up where I read it. Unfortunately I don't, so I can't.

[AbdoRinbo]

Vonnegut is a Postmodernist . . . but I agree with gt that what is typically identified with Postmdoernism (e.g. Deconstruction, Post-Feminism, Lacanian Psychoanalytics, &c.) is intellectually harrowing. However, you have to pick and choose who you criticize; not all of Postmodernism is illegitimate.

Goddamn I love that avatar pic . . .